User talk:Vaselineeeeeeee/Archive 7

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Re: Juve 6

@Messirulez: That was a pretty exciting derby, no? Juventus could have chosen to stay deflated after that Bayern game, but instead fought well. Good to see Dybala back from injury; hopefully Marchisio and Chiellini can come back soon. Great brace from Morata as well. Good to see Buffon finally achieve that record, although that was a pretty dumb penalty to give by Alex Sandro... If it weren't for that, Buffon's record would surely be in the 1000s! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 18:47, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose it was a good win with some nice goals, but I'm still bitter about the Champions League elimination and watched the derby half-heartedly; I really would have rather that we had gone through in the Champions League and lost in the derby like we did last year...oh well. Looking back I suppose we still put out some good performances in the Champions League and we showed we can compete against some good sides; considering that we rebuilt a lot of the team this year and lost three of our most important players, as well as a good striker like Llorente, and managed to come back from a negative start to the campaign, I suppose the result isn't that bad, especially as we were unfortuante to get drawn with Bayern so early. Many of the players are growing, so hopefully next year with a few more acquisitions, and the team at full-strength, we can have a good Champions League run, although maybe I shouldn't get my hoeps up either. The only thing about the derby is that it's just annoying that there is controversy almost every time, with an incorrect decision, because the Torino fans always feel robbed; the offisde goal should have been allowed, although I'm guessing the lines-man lifted his flag too early when the other striker was in an offside position from the shot and the ref saw him and assumed that Maxi Lopez had been offside as well. Video replay would clear things like that up; Rizzoli is a good ref, and I don't think he would have given Torino a penalty and sent off Khedira if we were favouring us. I'm not sure if Alex Sandro deserved a double booking on the penalty, even though some said he should have been sent off, although it was a rash challenge which wasn't needed, and it's a shame he gave it up. At least Buffon got the record, even though I was hoping it would last longer; a bit lame to give it up like that. Hopefully Morata has refound his form now that he has been playing. I thought Pogba and Khedira played well. Dybala went off but it seems that he's ok. Wish we had had him and Marchisio against Bayern; I think it would have made a big difference...what can you do. We'll see how the Italy friendlies go although there are a few injuries...two difficult games, even though they are friendlies. I hope the players take them seriously at this point seeing as there isn't much to play for right now. Best, Messirulez (talk) 19:38, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: I know what you mean. I'm always salty and bitter when things like what happened to us occur; especially in the fashion it took place in. I too would rather take the win against Bayern of this derby game any day of the week!, haha. Yeah, the injuries were unfortunate, but I guess Bayern had a few players out... Boatang, Badstuber, etc., however ours were probably more significant to some degree. The Torino fans are just bitter they lost by so much, just like how we were bitter about that Morata goal not given... Besides, it probably would've had a greater affect on the CL game if that goal was given, unlike the derby game where I think we were already leading by two? I can't recall... But it probably wouldn't have made much difference, just like when they scored the penalty, it didn't really do much for them. I remember Belotti from the U21 competition; I really like that kid, so good for him scoring against one of his probable idols and he really confused Buffon in which he didn't even move! And yeah, the ref probably wasn't favouring us, that's just something outside fans say when they lose against Juve since they keep recalling on something that happened 10 years ago! Rizzoli as a lot of esteem. I wish he didn't call that penalty so Buffon's record could have gone into the 1000s, but it was a blatant penalty that Alex Sandro shouldn't have given, so it was the right call. Yeah, let's see what Italy can do with these tough friendlies... They are against good teams, and like you said, hopefully they take them seriously because it really is good preparation and also counts towards ranking! They do have some more against Scotland and Finland closer to the Euros, but these will help as well. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:30, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Well, we got the win we needed yesterday. Not much to say about it, but that would've been hilarious if the Empoli keeper let that mishap in haha. In other news, Napoli lost to to Udinese 3-1 today which is great for us! Did you see Higuain lose is cool? Wow that was heated; pushing the referee. I guess he just got caught up in the emotions, they really want to come back and overtake Juve badly. Having him get a red card and pushing the ref, he probably get more than one game suspension, and Higuain being their (and Serie A) top scorer, it doesn't look good for them. Now they are two wins behind us so we have a pretty nice cushion now. I guess it isn't over until the end, but it looks better than ever for Juve now! Thanks Higuain! :D haha Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 17:13, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I have to admit, I was hoping it would be a bit a closer between Juve and Napoli until the end so that the players would be more motivated to battle it out, especially the Italian ones for the Euros, and I'm still hoping Insigne can re-discover his previous form. Maybe this way the players won't be as tired, although in 2014 we won it easily and our players still couldn't run in the World Cup. I'm still annoyed about all our eliminations in European competitions, although I suppose if we can get another double it will be a slight consolation. Pogba and Morata played really well I thooght and so did Rugani. I hope the Italian players in the league can pick it up, especially Berardi. Best, Messirulez (talk) 17:33, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: I can't believe Chiellini is out again for 20 days! What is this, like his third successive injury? I guess it doesn't matter too too much, but it still is annoying nevertheless! We will be without him for big games like Milan and Lazio and maybe even Fiorentina... In other news, Conte has now officially signed for Chelsea. Hopefully we have a good Euro tournament so he can start at Chelsea positively. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 13:08, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: That was an entertaining match. Buffon made a couple very good stops to start the game. Luckily we have that goal line technology since two of them really needed it! He did really well to get to Balo's free kick and almost stopped the header later on to boot. It was also funny to see Buffon come up almost to half and then set up Mandzukic's goal with that long drive. Did you notice Donnarumma, what seemed to look like him chewing gum in some instances? I don't know if he was just making that motion with his jaw, but it looked like it to me. If he really was, that could become more dangerous than it sounds. I don't know if there is a rule against chewing gum on the pitch, but if there isn't, there really should be... Too bad Pogba's free kick hit the post, but it was good to see him get the winner later. I love Balo, as I've said before, I think Conte should play him as he is, in my opinion, our best striker at the moment, but did he really think they weren't going to see him punch in the ball? Trying to do some Messi/Maradona Hand of God? Like you, diving really aggravates me, as well as an act like this. It's just shameful really. I know he was probably upset he didn't get it in on the first try and off the bar, but you can't do things like that from a moral standpoint. I wouldn't feel comfortable knowing the goal may have been allowed, but not actually having scored it legally. I thought he played pretty well to start off, especially with that free kick and him setting up Alex's goal off the corner, but he really ruined it with that hand. I even think I saw Conte in the audience, correct? I think he showed himself pretty well, and I would still choose him to come to France in any case. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:24, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, it was a good match, not our best performance, and Milan aren't what they used to be, but a good win at the San Siro, and another step towards the title; hopefully we can repeat the same feat against them in the Coppa Italia Final (and I hope Buffon plays in it this time)! Yeah, Gigi played well and made several very good saves, and he played a nice ball to Mandzukic for the goal as you said; it's a shame he couldn't quite keep out Alex's goal, because I think a few years back he would have stopped Alex's goal; he got there but he didn't quite have the strenght to keep out a header that powerful with one hand. I didn't notice Donnarumma chewing but I would think that athletes that do a lot of running wouldn't be allowed to chew gum as it is a choking hazard and could be dangerous, as you said. I thought Donnarumma played well, too, and made some good saves as well; hopefully he can be a worthy heir to the older Gigi and fill his gloves in the future! Yeah, Pogba is really getting more accurate at free kicks and seems to keep getting better and more confident with every match, and really seems to have the potential to dominate games in midfield. And yes, he even got a goal, and although it was fortunate, in football you also make your own luck to an extent, and he did well to control the ball and find himself in a good position on the corner! I don't think Balo will go to the Euros, unfortunately, although hopefully I'll be proven wrong; I think Conte is too stubborn (I didn't notice if he was at the game, but I was sort of only half-watching it, admittedly!) and seems to have his mind set that he doesn't have a place in his team as his presence would be too disruptive to the rest of the group's team spirit. It's like Lippi with Cassano in 2010; even though he was mostly correct to exclude him, as Cassano has a terrible character, is inconsistent and turned out to be a disappointment considering his immense talent, I still think he should have been given a chance that one time, as he was playing well with Pazzini at Sampdoria, and we didn't really have anyone else with his ability up-front, except for Rossi, who also should have gone (I really hope he can also have a good run of form and keep fit; if so I would even call him up). Maybe if Balo can also have a really good run of form and play like this from now on until the end of the season, and score a few goals, then he has a chance. He's certainly the most talented striker we have, but also volatile and not very reliable, and we haven't really seen him play well for almost two seasons now, which is a long time and quite disappointing (although usually for Italy he picks things up, and he is unfairly targeted by opponents and officials); it's sad to say, but at the moment it looks like he really peaked in 2012, and although he still played well the next two seasons, he didn't really improve afterwards. He played well this weekend, but this is one of the only games in which he's really stood out this season, and he still managed to do some silly things like get booked for the handball, as you said. Unfortunately talent isn't everything; someone like Denilson or Robinho or Morfeo looked like potential stars, but eventually fizzled out, whereas guys like Torricelli, Deschamps, Gattuso, Ramires, Di Livio, and Gary Neville ended up having successful careers through their mentality, work-rate, dedication, and consistency, despite not being particularly talented or skilful (mind you, it helped that they played defensive roles and played in very good teams!). Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 04:39, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Yeah, if Rossi didn't have a bunch of injuries during his career, I think he would probably be our best striker right now. I wonder if Conte would take him if he's fit? However, since he hasn't played (at all I think?) with the current squad, Conte would probably be picky of who comes along as he wants the entire team to "know" each other well. Yeah, I will probably have to face the fact that Balo won't go to France... Although he really has been showing better poise than before. I mean, during the 2012 Euros and the 2014 World Cup, I don't remember him having any temper issues, did he? I remember this one qualifying match against Czech Republic he got sent off stupidly and we had to defend almost the whole game and were lucky to come out with a goalless draw! Other than that, I can't really recall a match he did something like that at the international level at least. Prandelli chose him to go to Euro 2012 and it got us into the final and played well with Cassano! Two people of "hot tempers" played pretty well together, and were in the place we were because of them. Of course we got crushed in the final, but these things happen. And in the 2014 World Cup, we really deserved better than what we got and it wasn't entirely his fault at all. I think Balo has done a decent job with coping with all the racism that gets thrown at him far too often and a lot of his temper comes from that! Balo's situation is unique. Gattuso even had a "hot temper" at times too... I don't think that I would handle Balo in the same why Conte is. To me, I view it as: Balo hasn't played in two years, he's learned a lot since then, but just keeping him out and talking "badly" about him, will do him no good. I really think he's showed a lot of progress and I would include him in a friendly or two at least! With our forward selection somewhat limited, he really is an asset and I don't think he would be nearly as disruptive as he may have been earlier on. He needs a chance to show what he has again. Maybe he blew it, I don't know... Sometimes you only have one chance. But I think that he proved himself in bigger competitions, something many young players on Italy today have not done (mind you, some are not even young, they just have never been good enough to play)! In all honesty, choosing Eder, for example, over Balo is just insane, which Conte will probably do! It seems Conte would rather "prove a point" (out of stubbornness like you said, and possibly even spite) than to possibly make Italy more competitive. I would rather have Balo on my side over Eder any day of the week. That's my view anyway and the end of my rant haha. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:41, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
At the Euros I remember he could have been awarded a penalty in the opening draw against Spain, but was told to get up and he got really annoyed at the ref and was carded...those are the times where he can cause problems; and even though his performance and celebration against Germany was amazing, he didn't have to go and remove his shirt and receive an automatic card...I mean, if he had been booked again then he would have been off and Germany with an extra man could have even tied in the end. Gattuso was also a hot-head, but he was different; he worked really hard and he was consistent and a leader, and he knew when he could go in hard or get angry, but also knew when he needed to stay calm. De Rossi has always been more of a hot-head I suppose, and I thoguht he largely disappointed for Italy, except for Euro 2012. At the World Cup I was annoyed though because Balo was carded for leaning in on a defender, when Godin had done the same thing and no foul was called, and even in that game agaisnt the Czech Republic you mentioned, I thought the red card was ridiculous; it wasn't really an elbow, even a yellow would have been harsh; Luis Suarez did that on purpose to Pepe against Real and he only received a yellow. Balo does dive and behave stupidly and aggressively at times, but at the same time he is unfairly targeted by players (who try to irritate him) and officials, while it would take Neymar, Suarez or Cristiano Ronaldo 10 dives before they ever received a booking, which is unfair. And I agree that the fact that everyone continues to talk about him in the media even thoough he hasn't really done anything ridiculous of note, and hasn't really played much doesn't help the situation either. And they continue to say he is overrated, which also annoys me...why is that? Is he even considered to be one of the best players in the world right now? He had the potential to be when he was 22, so no, I don't think he was overrated back then, and now he's considered to be past it already, so I don't think he's being overrated right now either. I would like to see Balo play a bit under Conte, and play at the Euros as we don't have anyone better right now (especially Eder, who isn't young either as you said; he started well but isn't playing well anymore), and ususally he did well for Italy, although at the same time he needs to show he deserves to play for Italy as this is the first game since probably October in which I have really seen him play well, so given his previous form he probably didn't deserve a call-up. But yes, even if he does play well now, Conte is stubborn and wants to prove a point and show he's boss as you said. It's exactly the same with Lippi and Cassano; he didn't even try him out for a friendly, when it would have been a win win situation. If he played well in the friendly, then eveeryone would be happy he was finally called up, and if he played badly then he could have said "see, I told you so, he's unreliable; I gave him a chance and he blew it". I also think Criscito should be given a chance given his expereince in Europe and given the fact that our left-backs are one of our other weak point right now in my opinion. Best, Messirulez (talk) 14:45, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Oh yeah, I remember that game. But those situations can happen to anyone really... If you aren't awarded with a penalty, players often act out. Although, I know, some players wouldn't take it as far as to complain so much they get carded. One thing is for sure, Balo isn't boring haha! I guess you got to take the good with the bad. Almost everyone lashes out at some point. Sometimes your emotions get the better of you... Although Balo sometimes takes it too far, I wouldn't know what I would do in his situation either. You never know what can happen in the heat of the moment. Yeah, Balo isn't much of a leader, unlike Gattuso, his situation is different, that's why I said Balo's is unique. You don't see anything like him anywhere else, and it might also have to do with his colour as I said and with the media wrongly accusing him of being overrated and purposely targeting him like you said (most notably showed by his "Why Always Me?" shirt). And yes, I've noticed that about Ronaldo and Naymar not getting carded as much as someone else would. It's all politics! That's true about him taking off his shirt in the Germany game and him possibly getting another card, but that cele was just too cool! A lot of players do that with their shirt when they score a crazy and meaningful goal like that though, although I see what you mean, especially since Balo is more known to be at "risk" of getting another card more easily. I mean, after scoring two absolutely stunning goals, he must have been so happy and you could see how much it meant to him. With all the racism he's seen from his own fellow Italians, maybe he just wanted to show that he has a lot to offer, as he probably has never felt he "fit in" with the majority of Italians. He just needs to learn to control his emotions in the times where he wants to act out, but shouldn't for the good of the team; which I think he is doing a better job of now. I remember seeing an interview with Mourinho on Balo (if you haven't watched it, I suggest it since it can give you a laugh :)) when he was still very young and foolish playing on Inter. He says he was problematical, but they were funny. At he end of the day, it isn't about "fun" anymore since it isn't a kids game, but they keep it interesting. That video is hilarious and I'm sure Mourinho was not laughing as much when he really did get the red card! But I think he's over that stage in his career anyhow. Yes, it was unfortunate to see him play so little this season due to injury. And yes, he hadn't played all that good before the game against Juve and even read an article saying it is going to take more than one good game against Juve for Milan to buy him outright from Liverpool; they say he needs to also perform against the smaller clubs (which makes sense). I guess it is like Lippi in Cassano. Did Lippi have something against him, or is it kind of like Conte and Balo? I agree about letting them come up for a friendly to say either "yes, I gave them a chance and they blew it, told you" like you said, or "hey, you know what, they proved me wrong, let's try him out more"... But the thing with the last quote, is that they never want to be proven wrong, so they don't do it. Prandelli obviously had his downfalls by not getting out of the group in the last World Cup, however I liked some of the things he did. He put faith into Balo and Cassano, and it worked out to some extent in the Euros. Although he didn't play the youngsters all that much, which Conte is now doing (which can be good and bad). Yeah, like you said, our LB are hurting, we don't really have anyone and Criscito can fill that void; although he hasn't played in two years either, why? These are tough decisions to make that seem seemingly easy to us, but can be rather hard in the position of the manager, I suppose. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:45, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
It's true; lots of players do the same and it goes unnoticed, and he is definitely targeted and labelled in my opinion, which is why he always needs to be extra careful about his behaviour and think twice before reacting. He is capable of anything as you said, and he is still talented, but I guess I wish we had someone who could be a consistent attacking threat. Admittedly I loved his celebration against Germany because I think it was a statement against all the racist taunts he has suffered, but once again, even though others have celebrated that way when they scored an important goal, it usually wasn't quite so early on in the game and they usually weren't as unrpedictable as he is! Unfortunately he isn't young anymore, so he has to be careful as he has no more excuses really, even though he has had it tough. It would be nice to see him play for Italy at the Euros, still, and I hope he can sort out his problems and rediscover his form and convince Conte, but considering the season as a whole, right now he isn't good enough. With Cassano and Lippi it was similar but also different; like Mario he was volatile and could be sent off at any moment, and he was known to cause trouble in the dressing room and be lazy, even though he was also immensely talented and potentially a world-class player. At Euro 2004, like Balotelli, he showed his potential and it seemed like he had grown up for a time, but then he started having arguments with Capello, who left for Juve soon after, and with Totti, and he went to Real Madrid where he was over eating and didn't train and ended up gaining lots of weight and barely playing; who becomes a Galactico and messes up an opportunity like that!? Donadoni gave him a chance at the Euros in 2008 after Lippi won the World Cup (back then we had plenty of good forwards so we didn't necessarily need Cassano) and he didn't play well so I think Lippi by the time he returned was fed up with him and wasn't convinced by his ability to drag Italy (like Di Natale, who like Cassano couldn't quite perform for Italy at the time). But by 2010 a lot of our best strikers had aged and our teams had had a very bad year in Europe, and none of the young potential stars had much experience or played particularly well that season (except Rossi, who Lippi regretted not bringing). I think in 2010 there were too many old players from 2006 who couldn't run anymore, and we under-estimated the other teams; with Buffon and Pirlo out I think that also hurt our morale, and I think De Sanctis should have started in goal over Marchetti, as he had more experience. Maybe Cassano would have made a difference alongside his Sampdoria team-mate Pazzini, as he was playing very well then and he deserved a chance probably, and Lippi (like Conte now) shouldn't have been as stubborn, but at the same time, he was right in saying that Cassano had had his chances and had flopped almost every time, and he couldn't take the chance that Italy ended up a man down because of him, or that he disrupted the team dynamic or didn't work hard. Even at Euro 2012, he played decently and had quite a good tournament (especially considering ttat he wasn't particularly fit following his health problems that year), but he wasn't amazing either; he mainly only offerred a few flashes of his true brilliance, like his goal against Ireland, or his skill in between two defenders and the left-footed cross to Balo against Germany, but he struggled to beat players in one on one situations on the wing at times as he had lost a lot of pace and agility, and he couldn't really track back to help the team defensively, although no one could beat his creativity and vision for the final pass in the last third. That tournament, Pirlo really carried us more than anyone, and we had a good midfield with Marchisio and De Rossi alongside him, and our defence was solid. Then Balo finally came through with some goals against Germany after some inconsistent performances (he played well against Ireland, and he did decently against England but he failed to score several times when Pirlo put him 1 v 1 against Hart; but all credit to him for putting away the first penalty). Prandelli had some good ideas and did well in two tournaments...I think he was unlucky at the World Cup; in my opinion he made the right decisions (for example he brought on Cerci and switched to a 4-2-3-1 when we went down against Costa Rica), I just think our elimination was due to our own errors more than anything, plus the dodgy ref in the last game agaisnt Uruguay (and he had already subbed off Balotelli, so Marchisio's sending off messed things up for us; maybe he should have just gone old school and put on another defender, but up until the sending off we were controlling the match). I also think on that occasion Cassano was to blame for some of the team problems in the dressing room during half time against Uruguay, from what I've heard, so the again maybe Lippi wasn't entirely wrong. I remeber reading that Balotelli was also furious about the half-time substitution, and got into some arguments with his team-mates, but Prandelli couldn't risk going down to ten men after he had been booked so early (oh the irony that this change ultimately proved to be futile with Marchisio's absurd sending off for a completely innocuous challenge...). Prandelli had a nice mix of older experienced players and young talents as well, and although he kept quite a few older players, he did give several youngsters their first starts, and we played a nice style of football under him, which Conte is also trying to replicate, but I feel that we are more limited at the moment; hopefully we can be pleasantly surprised this summer. Best, Messirulez (talk) 17:09, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Well, we won the Scudetto for the fifth time in a row since 1930-31/1934-35 after Napoli's loss today. Hopefully we can get the double now with Coppa Italia and push toward a better CL performance next year! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:49, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

  • Yes; it's still a great achievement considering all the changes made to the team and the bad start; regardless of the early Champiosn League elimination we did well and the fact that we beat Man City twice and almost made it agaisnt Bayern shows that we could have been in the semifinals again this year, so hopefully that will give us confidence for next year and hopefully we can improve as you said. Fingers crossed for the double now, and I hope younger players like Sturaro and Rugani can get some more playing time and hopefully Chiellini will be back soon and can be fit for the Euros. Big penalty save by Buffon against Fiorentina and Mandzukic and Pogba did well; I'm surprised Napoli seem to be falling apart...I still hope they finish second as I feel they have a better chance of progressing in Europe over Roma, although Spalletti is a good coach, and I think he is to be praised more than anyone for Roma's comeback, more than Totti, who is still getting playing time, despite almost being 40 and having just returned from injury, so he probably shouldn't be complaining so much. Yes, he is a club legend, but he needs to understand by now that he isn't in good enough shape to start every match for Roma at the moment, and although he is still a good passer and technically skilled, like Pirlo (and even more so as he's older, and Pirlo was always a better player anyway), he's no longer sharp enough, and he's slow and lacked stamina; with Del Piero and Juve it was different, as Alex hadn't just come back from injury and was quite a bit younger (after 35 every year makes a big difference to me), and Roma aren't kicking Totti out either. Anyway, I hope we can build upon this team and get a few more players to strengthen the team next year. Best regards! Messirulez (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Yes, that was a classic penalty save Buffon made yesterday, I even figured he would make it, if anyone were to, it would be him. Even in the previous game against Lazio, Marchetti played phenomenal, but we still pushed through to get the commanding win. Yes, fingers crossed for the double, and hopefully they still give a decent show in the last few games, especially if Allegri plays some young players like you said. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 19:20, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Ciao. I couldn't be happier with how both Bayern and Man City crashed out of the CL. I didn't have the will do watch any of their games, but some people say Atletico just parked the bus. Could you blame them? I honestly don't care who wins the final at this point, as long as it wasn't Bayern or Man City! That takes some of the sting out. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 00:50, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

I'm really annoyed we aren't there because I actually think we could have had a change at winning it this year. Manchester City were terrible, they didn't even really have a good goalscoring chance (and Real didn't even really do much either, and went through on a fortuitous deflected goal), and Aguero was having to drop into midfield and was getting no passes, while Sterling kept dribbling to the touchline and losing the ball. It was funny to see Bayern go out now due to a bad decisione, with Pep biting his tongue; I initially wanted them to win it so we could say we went out to the winners, but now I'm rooting or Atletico. I really don't want Real to win; I dislike their president's whole mentality, and the fact that they bought someone like Bale for a ridiculous amount, a player who I don't particularly enjoy watching and consider to be overrated, and how they got rid of team symbols like Raul and Casillas, and immediately gave the number 7 shirt to Cristiano Ronaldo. I'm also not a Cristiano Ronaldo fan, and I don't want to see Zidane win the Champions League when he seems to have basically gotten to the final by pure fluke (I always thought that he didn't give his best with Juve, so as amazing as he was as a player, I was never enamoured by him, not just because of the Materazzi incident, although mind you, he had been sent off at Juve and with France for similar behaviour in the past as well...). I would like to see Simeone win it though; I think he's a really good manager, and it would be nice to see Atletico get their wealthier cross-city cousins Real back for two years ago, when they almost won it, especially considering how half their squad was given away in these past 5 years (Falcao, Felipe Luiz, Aguero, Forlan, Diego Costa, Turan, etc.). It would be quite a season to see Leicester win the Premier League AND Atletico win the Champions League! Best, Messirulez (talk) 17:40, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah, I'm still bitter that we aren't there since, as you said, we would have had a great chance this year. I heard that Real went through on a lucky goal, but that's part of the game I guess; although it always stings harder when it's a team you support. I can't usually bring myself to watch those games... When my team gets out, it's almost like all interest is lost in the tournament for me. It's not as intense to watch a game your team isn't playing in. When a team knocks out my team I always have a childish grudge toward them, I'll admit. I wouldn't have ever wanted to see Bayern win. I see what you're saying though, like if they won, it would have shown we went out to the champions so it wouldn't look as bad, but it is also painful to know that you could have knocked the champions out and you could be that champion! If I had to root for anyone, it would be Atletico too since it's always good to see an underdog win and especially to see some revenge for that late Real goal where Atletico almost won! That must have been similar as to how Bayern did it to us (of course theirs was a final so it surely hurt more). I say it again that that game against Sevilla, a group stage match at that. It had so much importance. The whole CL would be different, truly. We wouldn't be where we are, Man City wouldn't be where they are and Bayern wouldn't be where they are, and then it would affect other teams indirectly too. It really shows how every game counts, even group stage and first and second place in a group matters a great deal. It really is a shame for us. Well, we'll see what happens next year and hope for a good Coppa Italia again. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Have you seen the Juve kit for 2016-17? (It looks like they actually wore it today). It's not like the classic white and black stripes... Adidas didn't need to get all "clever" with their designs, the stripes are pretty simple. The old stripes looked better to me. I don't know, I'm not a big fan, but I guess it's something to get used to. I wonder if they'll continue this design into further seasons, but classic is always better. I've seen a lot of mixed feelings about the kit on social media. But it was nice to see Chiellini get a goal after so long away and you could see it meant a lot to him. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:03, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
It took me by surprise at first; I initially thought it looked like an Udinese, Newcastle or Notts County kit rather than a Juve kit, while the away jersey looked like a Chelsea kit, and I was a bit annoyed about Adidas having to put their spin on things, especially with their stripes when Juve usually almost always used thin black and white stripes...I have to say that seeing them play in it today, with the Scudetto and Coccarda, I didn't think it looked too bad though, and with the thick stripes it does remind me of their 1997–98 kit, which I remember quite fondly as they were so strong back then (even though at the time I also initially found that kid a bit odd and atypical...) and had a great season that year. Nice way to close off the season with a big win, and good to see Dybala close off the season with some goals, and it's nice that Chiello got a goal after all his injury troubles (hope he and Darmian are in good shape for the Euros at least seeing as we have no midfield without Verratti and Marchisio; I actually wonder if Conte should consider bringing Donnarumma along to gain experience as the third keeper as Perin is injured as well...); now hopefully we can win the Coppa Italia as well, which would be a nice win for the players right before the Euros. Speaking of which, what do you think of everyone trying to sway Conte to bring Totti to the Euros as a substitute? Personally, although we don't have any great players upfront, I think it's silly, especially as he isn't a main striker, but a creator who just happened to score a lot as well; he was class in his prime, and there aren't many around with his vision or technique, but he's so old now and can't really run much anymore, and he wouldn't get as much space against good teams who press aggressively and play at a faster tempo; we need younger players to gain more experience as well. Also, although he was criticised excessively for his performances with Italy, I don't think he ever left the same impression as other legends in the azzurri shirt, as he always seemed to feel the pressure, and I never found him to be a real leader for Italy, plus he was the one who called it quits after the World Cup victory back in 2006 to focus on his club career, which annoyed me at the time. I'm a bit sad to see Higuain break the goalscoring record as to me it doesn't hold as much weight anymore. Who would you like to see succeed Conte after the Euros? Best, Messirulez (talk) 22:51, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Yeah, for me too, I thought it didn't look as bad as I thought initially when they actually wore it today. It was also interesting to see who they picked to face the jerseys, notably Pogba and Morata who have been surrounded by transfer talks (especially Morata to Real as they have some sort of buy back clause). Why would they chose Morata to be one of the faces if he were to leave? Interesting. I wonder if they will still keep the pink jersey as the third jersey. I like that jersey too as it is a classic since Juve's first jerseys were pink even before the classic white and black stripes. Yes, hopefully we can have a good Coppa Italia and get the double again on Saturday. Off topic, I was sad and happy at the same time when Barzagli extended his Juve contract for two years as it looks like he won't be coming to Toronto, or MLS for that matter for a while. It looks like Di Natale will be going to the MLS now. Yeah, Higuain won the Capocannoniere by a landslide and he would have passed Gino Rossetti's record too, surely if he wasn't banned for three matches. It would have been nice to see Dybala get it, but 19 goals doesn't seem like enough to win the top scorer anyway. Now, if Italy want any chance, their defenders (Bonucci, Chiellini, and Barzagli) will have to be fit as officially without Marchisio and Verratti, it will be much more of a challenge. Maybe Montolivo now? He doesn't compare to the two who got injured though. I really wonder if Pirlo will get called. I would like it if he did, we have no one else. Maybe Giaccherini in an attacking midfielder type role? I wonder if Conte will go with a 4-3-3 or (3-4-3 / 3-5-2). I usually like a formation with 3 at the back since it would allow for a brick wall with all three centre backs to play with probably something like a Florenzi and Darmian on the wings with maybe a Candreva/(Pirlo-Montolivo-Motta)/Giaccherini middle and maybe a (El Shaarawy or Giovinco)/(Pelle or Zaza or Inisnge) attack. Although Conte's overlooked a few players like Insigne only until recently, but we still have two pretournament friendlies, so lets see what he does. What do you think? It actually would seem like a decent team, and imagine if we had Verratti and Marchisio too. What a shame they're out. But I'm excited to see what they can do and hope they can at least get out of the group at very least! This year the top four third placed teams make it through as well, however, if they don't want to get matched up with a strong team so early on, they would want to get first-second place. The opening game with Belgium will be crucial. We cannot lose. We must at least draw, win Ireland and draw/win Sweden, at the least. If we lose to Belgium, it could be bad if we don't win the next two games. But the opening games usually start out with both teams playing tactically and not putting too much on the line, so I would bet on a draw. With Perin injured, I would probably call Donnarumma for third. I don't know if Conte would actually go through with it, but I would. I mean who else? Padelli? Viviano? That's why I would bring Donnarumma, there's no point to bringing the older keepers since a third place keeper will basically never be played anyway and it would probably mean much more to Donnarumma. Even Buffon was called as third keeper in 1998, being pretty young. Although, Buffon did already have a senior cap before then, whereas Donnarumma doesn't. Yeah, I've read even Buffon suggest bringing Totti to the Euros! Who knows if they twisted his words though. Even though Totti is 38 now, he still has a great deal of class, he's simply a legend. Remember when he came on so late in the game against Torino this season and got those two quick goals to win 3-2! Even though one was a penalty, that was just crazy. It's sad Spalletti didn't play him more often. But he has still shown a few times this season that he still deserves to be played. But does that mean he can still play for Italy at this age? I would agree with you and say not. Even though he still shows to have class, he probably doesn't have as much pace anymore, like you said. He probably wouldn't even accept the call up if he actually was called. But you have to wonder, are players like Pelle and Eder or even Zaza that much better than Totti? Even at Totti's age, that's a tough question. No one can come on like that so late in the game and score two goals. But if I had to bet on anyone doing that it would be Totti. Like we've said, we don't really have anyone in attack, so I wouldn't be mad if I saw him come. I really hope Giovinco comes up. Conte would be foolish not to call him! He had such a good match for Toronto against Vancouver tonight with a brace. Too bad Toronto couldn't get the win though, it was a high scoring match, but always stupid mistakes from the defence. Toronto will suffer without him if he gets called though, which will be sad, but if that means Italy having better chances, I'm all for it. As for the next Italy manager, I've heard that they will be releasing that and the squad officially around 21 May and will likely be between Montella, Ventura, or De Biasi, but I've also heard Lippi (again) and even Ranieri. I wouldn't really consider Lippi... He's already been the coach twice, once ending in championship, and once ending in disaster. He does have experience I guess, but I wouldn't choose him again. With Ranieri winning BPL with Leicester, I don't think he would do it either since he wouldn't want to abandon the club after a season like that (it would be nearly impossible to replicate that feat again though). Between those choices, I would probably choose Montella since he had a pretty good spell with Fiorentina usually finishing around fourth and led them to the 2014 Coppa Italia, although they lost and to the Europa League semi final last year. I don't really know why the Viola sacked him though... He doesn't belong at Sampdoria. Ventura isn't that bad either I guess, but Torino have always been a mid-table team for a while now. But probably Montella. What do you think? I guess we'll find out soon anyhow. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:11, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
Hopefully there won't be any significant departures, but if there are, I hope we can make some important purchases. I like the pink one for its historic significance as well, but I also like the blue or yellow ones, as those were the away jerseys during their glory period in the 90s...I liked it when they had white or black away kits as well... Yes, it's a shame that the MLS will miss out on someone like Barzagli (hopefully he will still be playing well in two seasons, and maybe then he can still help Toronto!), but if he keeps playing like this, he's a great player for Juve to hold on to, so underappreciated and underrated, such an intelligent and consistent defender with a great positional sense and ability to read the game...he really is a wall, and I would rate him as one of the best these past five years! It would be nice to see Di Natale play in the MLS; I think he could still do well there, even though this season wasn't the happiest for him, but he's that type of Del Piero or Giovinco player who can create and score, and he's still fairly quick despite his age...he's probably best thought of as our (unfulfilled) David Villa, I suppose!
For the Euros (sorry in advance for the very long post, in which I complain about our chances at the Euros, even though I'm no football manager!), to be honest, I'm not sure who to bring. Going through the options, I'm a bit biased, but I've never personally been a Montolivo fan; a few years back I thought he was a decent player, with good passing and a good shot, and he worked hard and played fairly well at the Euros and at the Confederations Cup, but since then he hasn't done well. He has become a decent ball winner, but he's so unreliable, error-prone and slow, not only in terms of pace, but at reacting to everything, and he never seems to be in the right place. Thiago Motta is past it, and I think he would only have worked with Verratti and a ball winner who runs a lot (which we don't really even have anymore anyway, as De Rossi isn't what he used to be), so I think he is out as well; at this point maybe bringing Pirlo along isn't a terrible idea, although he hasn't looked like he's in the best shape since joining the MLS. At the same time, although he is partially to blame, the midfielders at New York FC, from what I've seen, seem to really have trouble complementing his playing style, thinking at his level, and understanding his passing game; they don't help him offensively by making useful runs, but they also don't cover for him enough defensively in midfield, but I suppose as he is the superstar, he gets criticised for not running or defending enough. Baggio once said towards the end of his career, when Brescia had also acquired Di Biagio and Guardiola, who were great in their prime, but old by then, that it was better to have players like them with good feet and footballing brains, who make the ball run instead of their team-mates, as, unlike footballers, a football doesn't sweat (funnily enough, that was essentially Barcelona's philosophy under Guardiola!). I'm not sure what Conte should play, as he really hasn't given too many youngsters too many consistent opportunities if you think about it. I agree that the 3–5–2 is probably the safest bet, as we played our best with that system in qualifying, and he and our players know that system best, but then again, our forwards don't play well in that system, as most of them are wingers who are more suited to a 4–3–3, which I like as I feel it's currently the best system, but we just can't seem to play well when we use it (I guess our players simply aren't good enough). I guess I would put Chiellini, Bonucci and Barzagli in a back 3, in front of Gigi, then; as our fullbacks aren't great, probably Darmian as a more defensive fullback on the left if he's fit (over players like De Sciglio, Antonelli or Criscito), and maybe Candreva, as he has to start for me and provides a better attacking option who can actually cross, on the right. Florenzi can play on the left, which would allow Darmian to play in his favoured position on the right, but to me he should be starting in midfield. Alongside him...maybe Bernardeschi...I really don't know, and some more defensive minded or box-to-box player, but we don't really have one; Parolo hasn't played well this year, Verratti and Marchisio are out, and others I've mentioned I wouldn't be too pleased to see...at this point I might even go with Sturaro and give him a go. Giaccherini has been ok, but I think he's past it, even though I always used to like him as a player, as he was consistent and hard-working. Maybe Jorginho isn't a bad option, or one of the other many young attacking mids we have. Upfront...I guess I would put Insigne for sure (even though he hasn't been quite as good in the second half of the season, he's still creative, talented, quick, and skilful, and can cause trouble for defenders, like Giovinco, who for me is a must have, at the very least as an immediate impact substitute, in my opinion!), and Pellé (who isn't great, but he works hard and has managed to go into double figures for two consecutive seasons in a top league like the Premier League, so I think he deserves a starting spot); I think Eder started off well but is too unreliable and hasn't played well in a while, I like Belotti, who has potential but he's young and lacks experience, Zaza is too inconsistent for me, El Shaarawy as well, even though he had huge potential and has played well recently, Totti is too old and has often flopped for Italy and usually did much better when used as a playmaker rather than a goal scorer, and Berardi is still young and wasn't quite as good this year, despite his talent, so I'm not entirely sure about him either, whereas I'm not convinced by Vazquez, although he is a decent number 10. Conte won't bring Balotelli at this point as he had a terrible season, and Conte already doesn't like him, even though he has more talent than most of our strikers combined. Looking at the other top Italian scorers in Serie A this year we also have: Maccarone (defintiely not; he was solid in his prime but never really reached his potential and is now 36...), and Pavoletti, who had an ok season, but has no experience, so we don't really have too many options, unfortunately! As reserves, I think bringing Rugani isn't a bad idea, as he has done well and could gain experience, and yes, I agree that Donnarumma as a third keeper behind Sirigu is fine. Gigi went to the World Cup in 1998 (as the second keeper in fact, due to Peruzzi's injury!) behind Pagliuca and ahead of Toldo (4 outstanding keepers...I miss those days!), and was already more established than Donnarumma is now, but Donnarumma certainly has talent and maturity and has done well so far. I should hope we make it out of the group with the new tournament format, if we can have a strong team-mentality, which has always been one of our weaknesses. As for a possible future Italy coach after Conte leaves...I'm not really sure. I would like to see Ancelotti eventually, but he's not planning to coach Italy yet, and I would love to see him coach a strong Italy side. Ranieri wouldn't be bad as a motivator and at unifying the team (even though his 4–4–2 dominated tactics have at times seemed old fashioned, but his defences are solid and he produced a miraculous tactical masterpiece with Leicester this season!), but he's defintiely staying at Leicester; hope he can do well next season as well and join a big club who are doing well, as he usually always coached big clubs at the wrong time! Lippi was a fantastic manager, but I think he's done at this point, the same with Capello, who never really wanted to coach Italy, even though he was an incredible manager. Mancini could be another decent option, I suppose; I wouldn't mind seeing Allegri in the future for what he managed to do with Juve when many, including myself, initially felt that the decision to appoint him was a poor one. I would also like to see Guidolin coach a big team (even though the Italian side isn't great at the moment), as to me he is such a great and underrated manager, who worked wonders with smaller teams like Vicenza and Udinese, and who could defintiely do well with a larger team. I like Spalletti as well; I'm not sure if he will stay at Roma, but he's a smart coach (he was esentially the genius behind the false-9), and he has done fairly well with the teams he has coached. I agree that Montella would be an interesting option as well; I loved him as a player and he did a decent job with a solid but not brilliant Fiorentina team, trying to play good football, barely missing out on a Champions League spot, reaching the Coppa Italia final and the Europa League semi-finals; I suppose the only worry is his lack of experience, but in the past that sometimes worked well for us. Having said that I think Di Biagio needs more experience, and I think having someone with even less experience like Cananvaro coach Italy would be a bad decision. Best, Messirulez (talk) 04:15, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: I agree with basically everything. I guess we'll wait and see in the coming week to see who the new manager is and who he picks for his squad. Even then, we will still have to wait for the actual tournament to see how he arranges the squad into 11 men on the pitch. Hopefully he can pick things up with the last two friendlies right before the tournament, as the last one's against Spain and Germany were dismal. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:46, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Ciao, hope you're having a good weekend. Pretty good Coppa Italia final today even though it was 0-0 for the longest time. I thought Neto played really well, and Donnarumma too for that matter. So we achieve the double for the second year straight, not too shabby. Hopefully next year we can close it off with a CL win. Buffon only has two more chances at that. Too bad he didn't get to play today in the final, though, again, Neto played well anyway. For a split second, I actually felt bad for Milan, they deserved more and meant a lot more to them. It would have been nice to see them in Europe again. But at least Juve's win allowed Sassuolo to try and qualify for Europa League for the first time in their history. It was also nice to see Morata come off the bench and get that splendid goal. I can imagine that the fans at the Stadio Olimpico get a little annoyed that the pitch is a little farther away from them than usual with the running track and all. I saw one kid in the stands with binoculars haha. The only good thing that track is good for is for celebrations where the scorer and the team go running in behind like Juve did today. P.S.: I read that Montella is reportedly staying at Samp and that it is getting ever so close to either Ventura or Cannavaro. I don't know how I feel about that. Ventura may be too old and as you said before, Cannavaro with very little coaching experience. We'll find out shortly I guess. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:41, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Re: Italy/U21 2 and North American soccer

@Messirulez: Pretty decent match today. I liked how Conte experimented a bit, and it paid off to an extent. I found that we attacked pretty well, better than some recent performances in the past, but De Gea stood on his head! Some great saves he made. Very unfortunate to concede basically right after we scored... There's an example of Buffon not being the best at handling, haha :). Even the best make mistakes, eh? I know he isn't in "his prime" anymore, but he still gets the job done majority of the time. It was just a friendly at that. I read something recently where Buffon claimed Federico Bernardeschi is Italy's best talent at the moment. I noticed he made an appearance today, but I'm not very familiar with his style of play, are you? Maybe Buffon is a bit biased since he is also from his hometown of Carrara. All the best, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 03:15, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

  • I thought we played quite well and that we dominated and probably should have won; it's a shame we didn't grab a win against the Spanish for once. It was an encouraging performance, although it is only a friendly I suppose, but if we can play like this, then we can probably manage a decent result at the Euros, although it won't be easy. It's annoying because we conceded so soon after scoring, and their free-kick goal was offside anyway and shouldn't have counted anyway; also, right before their goal, Insigne had been called offside when Bonucci played a longball, whereas from the replay it was evident that he was onside. It was also one of the only chances we conceded, whereas we were a bit wasteful with some of our chances. Yes, I know recently Buffon has been spilling those, and it's frustrating to watch, but in his prime, his handling was definitely first class; I've seen so many highly rated goalkeepers like Cech, Casillas, De Gea, and Neuer drop crosses a lot more frequently than Gigi ever did in his prime, and for some reason they were often considered to be more reliable at handling crosses, but yes, now he's giving up a lot of rebounds, which he never used to 5 years ago, even though he has still been playing well overall. I think it has to do with his reactions being a bit slower with age as well, because it seemed more like he didn't get there quickly enough, and that because of that wasn't able to prepare the catch. It's annoying because it was the only real chance he faced; I thought he did well to keep possession a few times under pressure though, especially when Astori misplaced a back pass. I thought the ref was terrible...Pique should have been sent off for the handball as he was last man, and there was a horrible tactical foul on Insigne which wasn't booked even though Thiago Motta (who was solid both on the ball with his passing, and at breaking up play, although he is too slow...still, at PSG with Verratti and Matuidi he does very well...) was cautioned in the first half for something rather innocuous; there were several other times that the Spanish players should have been booked in my opinion. I like Bernardeschi, even though at first I thought he was a bit overhyped...I think he certainly has potential, although he is young so it's hard to say how he will turn out, but he certainly played well when he came on I thought. I think the comparisons with Baggio are excessive, but if he continues to play like this then he can be an important player for us in the future. I'm glad Conte finally used Insigne, who has been playing well, and did really well today; it was a very nice goal. Eder didn't play well, but I thought overall most players did well. I was pleased with Candreva (although he looked a bit slower than usual; in general we look more sluggish and less fit, and I wonder if it's a problem with our fitness and athletic staff), and Zaza worked hard even though he certainly lacks finesse; Pelle, Florenzi and Giaccherini did quite well, but I was disappointed with Eder and Astori, and Buffon this time. Parolo was ok, and Bonucci was good; defensively I thought we did well and didn't give up many chances. The others didn't really get much playing time. We'll see what happens against Germany. The under-21 side got an important win in qualifying, and Donnarumma made his debut, becoming the youngest player to play for the team, which is exciting. Best, Messirulez (talk) 04:00, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yeah, the refereeing was pretty bad, that goal on Buffon should have been offside anyway, from the freekick to begin with. Yeah, that was a pretty bad give away which almost got Morata a goal. And, yes, I like Insigne too, pretty shocking he didn't even earn a cap in 2015... He really showed himself today, great goal which was being protested for offside, which it clearly wasn't, but I wouldn't have been surprised if it had been called off since the refereeing wasn't up to par. I liked how Zaza played today too, that little nifty move he made deep in their box was really nice, too bad a second defender took it off him before he could strike. Eder seems to disappoint lately. Ever since he made his debut, he hasn't been showing the same intensity since. Overall it was a good game and I thought we did well, even without all of our players, against a strong side; and the crowd was really into it which I liked to hear. Yes, we'll see what happens with Germany, a return to the Allianz! I really like Donnarumma too, if anyone will have a bright future, it will be him. I really think he has what it takes to be the next Buffon. He is still so young, and we really need a great keeper when Buffon goes, and he is surely it. U21 should be able to qualify without too much trouble and hopefully do better than the last Euros. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 04:47, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Well that match will be one to forget... The Germans can have their friendlies, but we still have won every competitive match haha :). I couldn't watch the game today, but I guess we didn't play well... From the highlights, we seemed to be unfortunate as well, with that clearance from Bonucci that inevitably went straight back to them, that second goal we had two players on Gotze and somehow he emerges through, and the the third... I hope Bonucci is okay, that fall seemed odd... and then the fourth Buffon giving away the penalty and Ozil did a really good job to fake him out (I even thought he was going to the right by the way he was stepping up). Anyway, we still have two more friendlies a couple weeks before the Euros, so we'll just have to wait and see. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

  • All I can say is at least it's a friendly, but after an encouraging performance agaisnt Spain (which we still weren't able to win, at home), things don't look good for the Euros, although it's hard to tell; anything is possible with us, as always. I know we were missing a lot of players and that they are probably still the best team in the world, but they also had several absences, and a lot of their 2014 World Cup stars have retired or are getting older now and aren't quite at the same level. England even managed to beat Germany, although they were fortunate to make that comeback, and they lost to the Dutch today, who didn't even qualify, so once again, friendlies don't mean much I guess and really shouldn't even count towards FIFA/UEFA rankings at all. I don't know if Conte was the right choice though; he's a good manager, but I don't think he has enough experience, and I'm not sure if he's suited to knock-out tournaments. I don't know how he can still call up Montolivo, and then field him alongside another very slow midfielder like Thiago Motta. The penalty give away was annoying because he didn't need to fall over like that when he had basically beaten Buffon...then we get labelled divers. Buffon was a bit rash on the challenge but I suppose he would've been beaten 1 vs 1 anyway. From one of the replay angles I thought it looked like Ozil was going to go to the left as he was standing in a very angled position, and although he's a good and composed penalty taker, he isn't an amazing one, so I'm annoyed Buffon didn't try to read it, but I suppose it wouldn't have made a difference, and it's easier said than done, especially when watching on television. It still amazes me that the pros are so good at disguising the direction in which they will kick until the last minute, to try and forse the keeper to move early, and how many can still place it instinctively right at the last minute with a slight motion of their foot, if the keeper hasn't moved yet. Bonucci's clearance on the first goal was stupid, and Gotze's goal was also ridiculous, when he's a small player with three defenders surrounding him, and he still manages to head it in; I can't beleive how poorly we defended on some of the goals, although it was a makeshift defence (although the same one that didn't give Spain a real shot on goal). I feel like we should have rested Buffon today and tried someone else out for one of the friendlies, as we still need to look to start giving experience to the keepers who will potentially take his place and getting them used to playing with the team. I still think Gigi should be number 1, but for friendlies I don't really see why he needs to play as it probably just tires him out. I'm annoyed Bonucci had to go and get injured when he was already playing badly and we were already being destroyed...hopefully he's ok in time for the Euros...right now in Serie A I don't think we will have many struggles until the end of the season, and we have subs; hopefully Chiellini will be back soon as well. Best, Messirulez (talk) 22:13, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: So how do you feel about the Euro 2016 squad? I still can't believe Conte left out Giovinco and Pirlo. Just because they play in MLS? Shameful. I can bet all I own that if De Rossi were playing in MLS he wouldn't have chosen him (or even any of the others for that matter). What he said about the league was pretty ignorant and not a fair representation. Conte has really annoyed me the past month with his decisions. I did forget about Marchetti though, so he didn't pick Donnarumma. I think Conte even put him ahead of Sirigu? I was surprised he omitted Montolivo and Jorginho and took Sturaro. We'll find out who the new coach is by Tuesday (likely Ventura now that he's gone from Torino). As for the tournament, I hope Italy can do well, although expectations are low, which is unfortunate. Hopefully we can give a surprise. The friendly wasn't very convincing, Giaccherini missed some blatant opportunities, but Pelle's strike was very well hit. Let's see what they can do in their last preparation match vs Finland, then it's off to France. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:10, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

From the 30-man Italy preliminary squad, it's more or less what I expected for Euro 2016; I know Conte likes Zaza (who works hard but lacks quality and consistency in front of goal), Eder (who hasn't scored in a long time) and Giaccherini (who was good, but is now past it, and was wasteful against Scotland as you said - not a great performace, but at least it was a friendly, and we won and created a few chances, although we should have done better; let's see what happens against Finland and at the Euros as you said), so I was pretty sure he would bring them, even though I would have probably taken Bonaventura, Jorginho and Rugani in their place, but it's not like those three would have made a big difference; with Verratti and Marchisio out, we don't really have any superstars on our team at the moment (aside from some former ones who are now good aging players) anyway. It's probably our weakest team in a long time...weaker than the 2010 World Cup and Euro 96 squads (even though in hindsight that was a solid team, I just didn't like it very much...); hopefully we can do ok - we aren't the favourites for once, and maybe that's a good thing as sometimes we surprised people when that was the case (like in 2000 - although I don't know why we were so underrated...I knew we had a great team - 2006 - ditto, but I suppose because of the scandal - and 2012). I feel like he's trying to bring a physical, athletic team that can run hard, defend behind the ball, press aggressively, and counter-attack, and which is suited to the 3–5–2 (which I don't think is the ideal system, but which we might have to resort to). I don't know why he gave the number 10 shirt to Thiago Motta (even though he was a false attacking midfielder under Prandelli; I don't think Conte is crazy about Insigne, as he seemed to be unsure about calling him up at first); I know it's just a number, but I think it would have boosted his confidence considering the shirt's prestige and the predecessors in the number 10 shirt (Sivori, Rivera, Mazzola, Antognoni, Baggio, Zola, Del Piero, Totti...even Di Natale, Giovinco and Cassano, or the atypical number 10s like De Rossi, Albertini, Pirlo, and Verratti). I would have rather he brought Criscito along as a left-back, and probably Donnarumma over Marchetti, even though both are solid; Sirigu has still done well when he played, and I think he's better than Trapp at the moment. Pavoletti didn't really have experience, so I can understand his esclusion, but I think Belotti might have deserved a call-up as a back-up due to his performances. Balo had a bad year, so his omission is also understandable...Berardi wasn't great but I might have thrown him in anyway as he has potential (considering Conte stated he wanted to give youngsters more opportunities, he really stuck with the same team often during friendlies and didn't really try out too many new young players aside from the usual few...), and Gabbiadini could have maybe gone over Immobile or El Shaarawy who have been inconsistent, as has everyone. I still think we could have brought Rossi along, and Giovinco of course (more about that later...) I didn't want Montolivo on the team, and I'm sorry he's injured, but I'm glad he wasn't included (same with Totti), as he's slow like Thiago Motta, but less reliable albeit also being less prone to injury. Many criticised Sturaro's presence, due to his youth and lack of experience, and inconsistency despite his potential, but I think he's just the player we would need in midfield, to run, defend, and start attacks, the perfect foil to our slower creative midfielders such as Motta and De Rossi. I wouldn't have minded bringing Acerbi or Romagnoli along in defence, although that is probably our strongest area at the moment and I don't really have too many objections regarding our defensive selections. Regarding Ventura...he's a good coach, who has done well with smaller teams, but I'm not thrilled at the prospect of him being Italy's manager due to his lack of international experience; then again, if he is named our new manager, I could really be proved wrong (hopefully), as he has done well with developing and getting the best out of young Italian players, and sometimes the unexpected coaching choices have done well in the past. We shall see, I suppose! Messirulez (talk) 03:11, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
I agree that I think Conte has let his ego get the better of him and his results with Juve have gone to his head; he's a good coach, but despite his positive seasons in charge of Juve, he hasn't really proven himself yet in Europe, at national level, or in a more competitive leauge. Yes, he is correct that MLS isn't a top league at the moment, as it is still growing, but his comments were rude, unwarranted, and ignorant, as the quality of play in the MLS has already improved greatly in a few years, and it has a solid foundation (especially from a financial standpoint), a large potential following, and it is well run and organised, and unlike with Serie A, the teams have excellent stadiums, which are safe and provide a fantastic atmostphere, and the quality of broadcasting is of an extremely high quality; in that respect it is already miles ahead of Serie A, even though the players, coaches and trainers aren't at the same level. We don't have great Italian strikers at the moment, and I don't really see why Eder is on the team over Giovinco at the moment, especially as Giovinco could have easily scored the same amount of goals in Serie A at the moment (as he did in the past with Parma), which also isn't a particularly great league either, unfortunately, I must admit. Now at least he is playing a lot and he really has confidence in his abilities, and he's in good shape and great form, more importantly, so against weaker teams, who might defend, I don't see why he couldn't make a difference with his pace and skill, especially late in the game as defences open up, considering that his performances as a substitute were very ecnouraging during qualifying; he's also our only creative, dynamic and skilful forward, aside from Insigne, who is also unreliable at times. Also, Kakà is still going to the Copa América as a substitute despite playing in the MLS, and Lavezzi, who is playing in China, is also going to the Copa América over Tevez, who is playing in the far superior Argentine league, and Dybala, who is playing in Serie A; I don't agree with that, but obviously Argentina's coach must have felt that his performances and his experience would be more important to the squad. Given our midfield problems due to injury, Pirlo might have helped as a backup for the end of matches, although he is aging; he is slow and can't run like he used to, and has lost a bit of his sharpness, and he hasn't been playing particularly well, but it's not entirely his fault, as the New York FC players really aren't playing for him, when he should be the centre of the team's play. He has been disappointing, but he is unjustly criticised in the media for not running or defending enough, which I find absurd given his reputation, advanced age, role, and style of play (he covered ground and helped out defensively when he was younger, but even in his prime he was never a particularly dynamic box-to-box player!). He shouldn't have to run or defend so much, especially seeing that the rest of the team seems to spend their time running! From their matches I have seen, however, they aren't giving him enough of the ball and they aren't running in an efficient or intelligent manner, and they don't support him defensively or creatively by getting into good positions for passes, making exchanges, or good attacking runs, as they don't to be on his level tactically speaking. When he has the ball, he has shown that he can still make crazy passes, and obviously his vision and creativity is still top class, and his free-kicks, set-piece delivery and penalties are still unbeatable, and he was experience and leadership qualities which would help the Italian team. Against a team which defends and gives us space, he might have also had more time on the ball to orchestrate attacks. Having said that, even though De Rossi isn't what he used to be, due to injuries and loss of pace and physicality, he is a good and experienced player, who can defend well and who is a threat in the air from set-pieces, but I do see your point and agree; I would probably rather have both over Thiago Motta, as unfortuantely with Italy he hasn't yet managed to produce the same level of quality which he has demonstrated with Verratti at PSG. Thoughts? Best, Messirulez (talk) 03:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Also, regarding Pirlo, I read an interesting interview with him, and I was wondering what you thought about it (http://www.espnfc.com/major-league-soccer/story/2878287/nycfcs-andrea-pirlo-mls-has-too-much-running-and-too-little-play). He stated that currently the MLS's main problem is the lack of a North-American association football culture, which he believes is why at the moment, in terms of international recognition, the MLS is still behind even the smaller or minor European Leagues (and as the top teams in those leagues still have the opportunity to play in the Champions League). Although he seems to generalise and exaggerate a bit, as basic technical skills, rules, drills, and tactics are certainly taught in training and inevitably learnt through practice, he drew attention to the fact that children don't start learning them at quite as early an age as players in Europe or Latin America, who start playing at a much younger age (as everyone plays football there), and who already have them ingrained into them by the time they join teams. He also said that the youth and senior teams focus too much on fitness and the physical and athletic aspect of the game rather than tactics and developing individual skills in training (the MLS in some ways is similar to the old-fashioned English and Northern European more physical style of play and use of the kick and rush or long ball tactic). I don't think he is completely correct, as he is a bit harsh in some of his comments, and soccer has progressed greatly in North America and has already become much more popular in a short period of time (and will continue to do so, especially given the large number of citizens of European and Latin-American origin in North America, as well as it's strong financial foundation, and the quality of how it is organised and promoted, which is on par with the top three European Leagues in my opinion), but he does raise some good points which I agree with. Not that I would really know, but I suppose that the previous pioneering generation of North American soccer players, analysts and coaches, who came about when soccer wasn't as popular in North America, didn't have as much exposure, experience or opportunities to observe European or South American players, playing systems, and matches, whereas with modern technology, widespread broadcasting, and the sport's immense popularity, the current younger generations can absorb so much more at an earlier age, so by the time they will go pro, I think there will already be a big improvement in terms of quality. As the sport grows, however, better coaches and better players will definitely emerge, both at youth and senior level, as more talented athletes will have more opportunities through soccer. The American team has already had some very good results in international tournaments, and several North American players have done well abroad, and right now there are several older former star players who are playing in the league which has made it much more appealing. Certainly there are talented North-American born players who went abroad at a very early age who did extremely well, such as Hargreaves, de Guzmán and Giuseppe Rossi, so the talent is certainly there already, it's just a question of honing and developing it patiently in a dedicated manner. Hopefully Canada can qualify for the World Cup soon as well; it's only a matter of time in my opinion, and I'm sure the presence of someone like Giovinco with TFC will only help! Larin already looks to be very promising! Regarding more comparisons between the MLS and the old-school Premier League, I found this article comparing the roles of Giovinco and Zola to be quite interesting as well: http://www.skysports.com/football/news/30423/10209855/sebastian-giovinco-mls-little-big-star-in-the-mould-of-gianfranco-zola Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 04:17, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Yes, I do agree this is probably one of our weakest squads – if not the weakest squad to date. That being said, I believe the defence is up to scratch, as it usually is (like we've said), it's just our attack, and now unfortunately, our midfield that is lacking! It's such a shame that with our attack that is lacking, our midfield must also lack due to two significant injuries. And on top of it, Conte excluded Giovinco and Pirlo (which I think would have been our best striker named and our best midfielder named respectively). I haven't watched many NYCFC games, however, it is evident that Pirlo hasn't been accompanied by the style of football that fits him. That being said, if he were to play for Italy with his former teammates, he would have the proper support since they know his style (although much of the team are rookies). On a side note, it was a shame that neither Pirlo or Villa played in the game a couple weeks ago when they were in Toronto. I know a buddy of mine who went to the game and paid extra for the tickets specifically to watch them play, and they didn't even appear. Why would they do that? Toronto is falling in the standings and need to pick it up. With Bradley gone with the U.S., Altidore injured and Giovinco too now (hopefully not serious), it will be tough. But did you see the highlights recently where Pirlo made that great lob into Villa to score that cheeky? That was a great pass Pirlo gave. (Though they did get killed by NY Redbulls 7-0 prior). Besides, with a player like Pirlo, you don't have to run much since you just supply balls. Sturaro's never even made an appearance and he was called. I never really liked Montolivo or Motta either, so there was definitely room for Pirlo. However, I sense that Pirlo doesn't really care much since he's been through it all already, but it did really matter to Giovinco, as you could see from his response to his exclusion. People just expect to have Pirlo on their team and for him to work magic, but if he isn't being supported by his teammates properly, how is he going to be able to do anything? The media always criticizes him for that reason, but he isn't Superman. It's just that I think that if it were a different coach than Conte, we would have them in our lineup, for the better. We don't have many options so why not include them?! Eder... I really hope he proves us wrong and does something in the tournament, although I don't know how much he'll get played anyway. Where will our goals come from? That is the big question. We don't have many top goalscorers, and that will be the main challenge. I think with Giovinco, Rossi, or Balo up front, we would be more confident with our goal scoring abilities.
  • Regarding what Pirlo said about North American soccer raising, I basically agree. There's no question that in Europe they train players better. We don't have access to state of the art training over here, and it isn't a year-round sport here either. Also, there are many others sports that dominate the market, almost every sport (hockey, basketball, baseball, American football) is more popular in North America over soccer, and it really reflects in the players we produce and the popularity of the sport. Fortunately, it is getting a lot better, but it is still no where near the other sports. It is also good they are trying to expand and create more teams, but some fail due to low fan base. When the Jays were in the playoffs last year, all of Toronto was going mad no matter if you watched baseball or not. With TFC in the playoffs, it was all overshadowed, and even still, there would be little media attention. Although, TFC has a full 30,000 house almost every game. How Pirlo said we focus less on tactics, is correct. North American soccer doesn't focus enough on the details and more on the pace and physicality. North Americans care about fast paced and physical sports more which is why there is less of a developed taste for the European "slow paced" sport. There is less thought that goes into a play here. That's why the better talent goes to Europe to train. When you watch MLS vs Serie A, BPL, etc, you can see a drastic difference even though the league is getting better. But just because Giovinco scorers a lot of goals, doesn't mean he is just going for a stroll because the league is so easy (which is what Conte probably thinks), he works hard and shows he is still in form. In Europe, their training is probably much more refined and to the T. The U.S. basically makes it to the World Cup every year, but it is also due to the fact that their population is 10 times as much as Canada so they have more access to training and players. Canada's only made it one time to the World Cup in 1986 and are doing decent in qualifying this year in the fourth round, however, they need to pick it up after losing to Mexico twice. Hopefully they can win the bid for the 2026 World Cup as it would guarantee qualification and bring much more attention to the sport. Not to be a pessimist, but I don't think soccer popularity in North America will ever get to where it needs to be though. You can advertise like crazy and some people still won't care. North America is just not built for soccer. It's not in their blood. It's also about how many North Americans see soccer as a sport of divers, cry babies, wrong calls due to no video replay etc etc. The league is getting better, but I don't think it can ever reach European leagues, just like South American leagues have never been as good as Europe. It doesn't mean it's a terrible league though, and that any foreign international like Pirlo and Giovinco will be "working less" so they can't be part of the squad. Like you said, others play in foreign leagues and are being called up. The only reason I love soccer is because of my European background and my nonno instilled it in me, but even so with other Canadians/Americans with European backgrounds, they may be such a late generation that they haven't taken much culture away from it, or may not have had it instilled in them by their family at a young age. I know plenty of buddies of mine with Italian backgrounds that couldn't care less about soccer. They see it more as a children's game. It's a totally different world over here. It's hard to explain. It's just like how hockey or American football will never be as popular in Europe as it is over here. The training and leagues for hockey and American football is at such a higher level in North America than in Europe. We are probably advertising soccer more here than Europe does for hockey, but advertising can only get you so far. You have to really love the sport from the very beginning. Most people in North America just don't get soccer. They don't appreciate the build up to a play, and most never will. But it's much more than that too; the atmosphere, the togetherness etc. just makes it all the more amazing and a sport like no other. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 05:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it's a shame that Giovinco and Pirlo are out (especially Giovinco, as he's in his prime and playing so well - hope his injury isn't serious - whereas Pirlo has pretty much done everything he could for Italy, so maybe he isn't as motivated as before, although I doubt it as he is a champion!), especially as I don't really see many youngesters that have been brought in. Everyone is hating on Motta, but I actually think he's a good player, just that I don't know if he works for the Italian team...with Prandelli in the midfield diamond, as a false attacking midfielder, he worked well with Pirlo, De Rossi and Marchisio, because they were all good players (Montolivo and Aquilani also worked well in that role, but then again they weren't bad players a few years back, just inconsistent, but they defintiely had the skills, creativity and passing ability and could strike well), just like he is really good at PSG at setting the pace and breaking down play alongside a superstar like Verratti and a tirless box-to-box runner and ball-winner like Matuidi, but with different players he has struggled, as he is very slow (he's also not as good in the air or at striking from distance as he used to be and can't run as much, and at times he can be a bit aggressive and is injury prone). I don't know why Conte tried him alongside Montolivo in the friendly against Germany...that was obviously not going to work given their lack of pace, even if Motta is a two-way defensive midfielder and Montolivo, despite being a playmaker, has worked well as a ball-winner; Serie A have teams which have a style of play which is a lot slower than the game that the Germany team plays! There were many jokes about the fact that if Conte had brought Montolivo, Aquilani, Motta, De Rossi and Pirlo it would have been the slowest midfield of all time! But I agree that with Italy, Pirlo's style of play would have worked, although then again I'm not sure if Conte is really looking for a slow paced possession game, and I don't know if some of the young players have enough experience playing with Pirlo.
Your comments regarding soccer in North America are interesting, and no, the MLS isn't a terrible league, just a league which is still developing and which has already grown greatly since Beckham first joined LA. I still believe that if there is money (and eventually opportunities), then talented players will go there, and every year the MLS salary cap will grow and probably more players will find the financial gains and quality of living in North America more appealing, although there is the problem that a lot of people don't care about soccer as much or follow it, but then again that has changed a lot already! At the 1994 World Cup in the States, so many people didn't know who Maradona was, but today I doubt people wouldn't know who Messi is! The preference for a faster, physical but less tactical and planned-out game will change...the Premier League used to be like that as well, and I couldn't stand watching it at first when I lived in England (although many there criticsed Serie A for being too slow and defensive, even though it was the top league in the world at the time...but I don't necessarily equate fast with entertaining...Barcelona don't play fast football!), and many older players from Serie A were coming to the Premier League to end their careers and became stars, then in 10 years the Premier League developed into arguably the best and certainly the most popular and marketable league in the world. Obviously it's different to the MLS as the league was strong in the past and its quality had been affected by the banning of English teams from European competitions in 1985, and there were still many good English coaches and players, but there are certainly similarities. I remember Vialli and Zola describing the long ball tactics and lack of a possession-based game as archaic and frustrating, and even in terms of tactical and athletic preparation, the English League was behind at the time as teams gave more space and were fixed on the 4–4–2 with traditional wingers and centreforwards and didn't really have any numer 10s, sweepers, overlapping wingbacks or deep-lying playmakers (and a talented, creative free-role player like Le Tissier was overlooked from the national team for being too slow) (http://www.fourfourtwo.com/us/features/gianfranco-zola-one-one#:oC5nKLX6bbWnWA http://napoli.repubblica.it/sport/2012/02/20/news/zola_doppia_coppa-30202885/). Vialli also said that when he first arrived in England, he was surprised that the youth systems didn't really teach young players about the pressures and stresses they would have to face as a professional regarding transfers, training regime, diet, media coverage, etc. which has also changed (http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/3270/england-national-team/2014/06/11/4875675/england-cant-handle-the-world-cup-pressure-says-vialli). I also remmeber reading an interview with Arsene Wenger where he decribed how much things had changed since his arrival in the Premier League. He stated how surprised he was when he joined Arsenal that teams didn't really have nutritionists or sports doctors or athletic coaches who were as strict in managing the players' diet and training regime in comparison to the rest of Europe (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2003/aug/19/sport.biography); he said that so many talented players would go for a pub lunch of steak, chips and a pint of beer after training, which really shocked and surprised me, so he really turned that around, as I beleive that the Premier League probably produces the fittest players at the moment, and currently attracts the best coaches as it is arguably the top league, and the style of play and level of tactical preparation is completely different today and of a very high quality. An issue I think is the fact that as there are so many sports in North America, which are more popular and which have more financial power, there are probably many talented athletes that also excel at soccer but chose to play another sport as they know they will have more opportunities; I recall that Steve Nash said that he was an excellent soccer player and that he considered playing professionally, but ultimately chose basketball because of the opportunities if I'm not wrong (and he wasn't a bad basketball player either... :P). The one thing I don't understand is the lack of tactics in training though...from what I have seen from visiting family abroad, Ice Hockey, Basketball, Baseball, American Football training sessions are full of tactics and statistical analysis (in fact certain systems also drew influence from some association football tactics and vice versa) which are already taught to players at a young age, so I don't understand why it is different with soccer; I suppose it's the lack of coaches with experience or interest (I guess there aren't as many coaching institutions like the ones in Italy, which essentially provide you with a degree in coaching), and many people just see it as a summer sport which is played for fun and exercise and team-building, whereas in Italy (and this is one defect...) you don't really have summer recreational teams, and you only join and play in a team if you are a good enough player. I still think that the newer generation of soccer enthusiasts will change things...maybe it won't be at the level of the top European Leagues, but I still think it will end up being a good league, as bit by bit there will be better coaches at youth and senior level, and more opportunities for talented young athletes to develop their talents and tactical knowledge and build a successful career with soccer (regarding the North American sports fans not being able to put up with diving in soccer, I have always found it funny, because in my opinion there is also a lot of diving and complaining in basketball, it's just that the players don't feign injuries and act as childishly!). Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 15:06, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: I suppose you're right, I'm just skeptical is all. I mean, in South America they love soccer and people take interest in it, so how come their leagues aren't near as good as Europe's and it's been like that for a long while. It's geography I guess too. Soccer is a European sport first and foremost and gathers the most attention there. It really is such a debatable topic. Also, the MLS doesn't have a relegation system, so there isn't much incentive to do well during the year. They know they will just come back to play in the top league, so it makes the quality harder to improve. But again, it's a different thought process in North America. In North America, they want to see the almighty playoffs like in hockey, baseball, etc. They can't have the top team in the league win the title, oh no. I really don't know which system is truly better though. For example, just having the top team win like Juve in recent years can kill it in the beginning, and then take it easy the latter half since they are so far ahead. But then in the playoff system, you can have a team squeak into the playoffs at 6th place and then take the cup since all the league stats before the playoffs mean absolutely nothing once you're in the playoffs. Is it really fair to have the 6th place team win the cup when the first place team was better the whole year? I don't know. Maybe it shows drive in the 6th place team to muscle all the way through. Again, debatable. In North America, they only care about the money (I know they do in European too, obviously, but it's bad here). What would happen if a big team that brings in a lot of cash were to get relegated? That would cause a huge loss in profit. And then a small team would come up, which makes much less (Serie A had this problem with Carpi). And then that's where match fixing gets involved because you don't want the big team to get relegated, or you want them to win the league (in MLS you can't really say you won the league since there's playoffs!) A fast style of play, definitely agree, does not bring higher entertainment when you just wastefully give the ball away. Even watching TFC sometimes makes me sick when I see some of the no-thought plays they make. It's also funny how North Americans complain about the diving and match fixing in soccer, but a lot of that stuff also happens in other sports too, as you said. There are definitely double standards. I just don't think North Americans want to play a not-local sport, which maybe has to do with some ignorance. It is also odd how in North America other sports have tactics, but then they don't carry it over in soccer. Maybe it's a lack of good coaching like you said. But there are so many other small factors, it's sometimes hard to pinpoint why that is. And certainly the popularity of soccer has gone up dramatically in North America, however, it will still be a long while before MLS ever gets to European quality. I think the BPL starting out as a physical and fast league may be a little different though, because soccer has always been a popular sport in England. And being in Europe already and having the proper fan base to support clubs, they made their league much better in short amount of time. The MLS has only been around for a short while too so I guess you can dump a bunch of money into getting better training, sport doctors, etc etc, which will change the quality of the league, but may not bring the popularity. I wasn't around to watch the BPL in the 80s so I could be wrong. I don't think players are allowed to have unhealthy food like that in the MLS, and we have team doctors, etc, so maybe MLS is even better now than the BPL was back then! haha. I only really follow what goes on in North America and Serie A (I don't even follow much of BPL or Liga currently). Now, marketing comes in, but again, it can only get you so far. We could have the best soccer league in the world by tomorrow and honest to God, I would estimate 8/10 people who already didn't like soccer, still wouldn't like it. It's more than just having a good league, it's just liking the sport. It's also the connotation that North Americans have that soccer isn't a local sport, so they don't play it, or it's a child's game, or its for pansies. I'll give you a first hand example, for me, I absolutely hate American football (there's too much stoppage and not enough playing). I honestly wouldn't care if we had the best American football league in the world, I still wouldn't watch it because I just don't like the sport. It's the same with Americans who love American football and are like "American football is such a manly sport, I'm not about soccer, that's for babies". There are seriously people like this. There are people that won't give it a chance, ever. I wouldn't give American football another chance, because I already know I don't like it. Is that maybe ignorant on my part? Maybe. But that's how people think. Most people like sticking to one or two sports they absolutely love and will watch no matter what, and shield out the rest. It needs to be instilled into your culture and your country, which soccer just isn't in North America. It is a very uphill battle. Signings can give a little bit of a boost in popularity as well, such as when Defoe came to Toronto, and even more so when Giovinco came, I guess the people who are like "you know, I don't hate soccer, let me give it a try" and so that's how we get maybe 5000 more people attending each game. It's a start. Another thing with Canada and U.S. is that where there is lots of population which have come from immigrants, they usually like soccer more. Like Toronto (lots of Europeans) and then California (lots of Mexicans) or New York. Plus they have the population to support a team. The 2.8 million population of Toronto is big enough to have, say just 300,000 people like soccer for example, and they will still be able to fill the stadium, even though the number as a whole population who like soccer in that city is pretty low. Once you get into central Canada and U.S. like in Saskatchewan (you probably don't even know what that is :P ) or like Nebraska, etc. they for one don't have the population and two don't have the interest since they have had less immigration. That's on the popularity side of things. Steve Nash did also enjoy soccer, but chose basketball, so there are definitely cases where an athlete chooses one sport over another. He even owns some of the Vancouver Whitecaps. --- Then you get some "prior" star players like Pirlo, Lampard, and Villa and critics say, oh, MLS is just a retirement league, it's such a bad league etc (which is what tons of ignorant people say on social media). --- I don't know how you feel about my rants, but experiencing this first hand in Toronto (maybe it is slightly different in different parts), this is how I feel. It really is such a touchy debate. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 18:02, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

  • Also as a side note, Italy went from 15th in the world rankings to 12th today from virtually just that one friendly match since there was nothing else played during that time period. Just that friendly mattered that much. I would bet if we hadn't won that friendly, we would have either stayed the same or even gone down! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 12:10, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
I suppose it's difficult to judge what will happen in the future, and it's true that one problem is the fact that there isn't that football culture in North America which exists in Europe and Latin America, where everyone plays and follows football from a young age and it's natrually a part of life, but that could develop with time; hopefully at least! Obviously in Canada Ice Hockey is the equivalent of football in Europe in terms of popularity and being the nation's national sport. Regarding the following and the prejudice towards soccer, I think that once people start understanding a sport then they can get into it...and probably if Canada could qualify for a World Cup, or hosted one, people would watch the games regardless and it would help people get into it more (that happened with USA 94). I remember I used to really dislike rugby until I started watching it properly, and now I enjoy it, even though I only really follow football and tennis properly as it's hard to keep track of a lot of sports (I don't watch Formula 1 or Moto GP as much anymore, which I used to really enjoy, but I also enjoy watching North American sports on occasion such as Ice Hockey, baseball and Basketball, and I have watched the Super Bowl on occasion, although American Football doesn't appeal to me quite as much either!). Yes, I saw how Italy's ranking changed from a friendly...how ridiculous...like we've said, the system is definitely flawed! Best, Messirulez (talk) 12:53, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, I really hope that one day soccer will be just as big over here. It has been hard, but can't deny it is improving. It has been probably "easier" for the U.S. to develop an interest more so than Canada since some of their states have summer all year round and probably better access to training and facilities, plus their populations is much larger, and they've hosted a WC of course. I think that certainly if Canada were to host the 2026 WC it would surely bring some attention to the sport. Although, it is 10 years away, but things like this to change cultures will take a while. For me too, I used to follow more sports (like hockey), but now I don't follow it nearly as much. It becomes exhausting to follow more than one sport seriously; never really got into Formula 1, but a couple of my good buddies love that stuff (it just seems very repetitive, excuse me for my possible ignorance). It all comes down to preference and more often than not people just stick to what they know and love. But for me, there's truly nothing better than watching, following, playing, and breathing in the atmosphere of good calcio. I can't even bring myself to watch a Super Bowl to be honest! It's like watching just commercials! All the stop and go is just not for me. It's honestly probably my least favourite sport, even the final doesn't get me going. Even when the Toronto Raptors were on the playoffs a week ago, the whole city was crazy for them! I watched some games, but never start to finish. But I wouldn't really watch any regular season games, people just get excited for the playoffs. Even the Toronto Maple Leafs, as you might know, have sucked for a really long time, however the arena is always packed to capacity. You would never see that magnitude for the TFC, or even many other sports for that matter. That really shows how much this city loves hockey. You can't really blame people for not liking a sport, but there is a fine line between that and just not giving it a try. But again, you can't really blame people for not wanting to stray form a sport they already know and love, that's why it's hard for soccer over here. Soccer will slowly become more popular, and with MLS, better quality, but only time can really tell. I'm usually a skeptic, but would like to be proven wrong! In the meantime I am much more concerned with Serie A getting back up to par with BPL etc and for our Italian national team to return to its former glory, another thing which will take some time (I know you feel like that too)! For me, I am more into my heritage's football than I am with TFC for example. I care much more if Juventus and Italy do well than TFC. I, unlike some others in my country, will never forget about my heritage, and for me, they always come first for soccer. Sorry for going on again, Forza Azzurri! :) Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:49, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Game day! Big match for us tonight...fingers crossed, it definitely won't be easy for Italy against this team! Hope we don't lose at least at that we can manage a draw and get through to the second round, even though given our reputation we should aim for much more, but then again this is one of the weakest national sides I can remmeber... According to La Gazzetta dello Sport, Conte's starting line-up against Belgium will mostly likely use a 3–5–2 with Buffon in goal, and the usual Juve trio of Barzagli, Bonucci, Chiellini in defence; De Rossi will play in front of them as the defensive midfielder/regista, Parolo and Giaccherini will be on either side of him in the middle, and Candreva and Darmian out wide; Pellè and Eder will play alongside each other upfront. It's what I expected more or less (as I know he liked Giaccherini and Eder and doesn't like Insigne too much...I thought Thiago Motta might even start) and it's probably also the best solution considering the football he wants to play with the 3–5–2, but I would rather he play Florenzi and Insigne instead of Giaccherini and Eder (I know Florenzi is better out wide than in the middle, but Giaccherini is past it now even though he plays hard, and Florenzi runs and is more talented and skilful; although Insigne isn't suited to this formation, he's better than Eder both technically and creatively and he also runs...he's not as much of a goalscorer but his scoring rate isn't inferior to Eder's either this year). I can understand not playing an inexperienced and young offensive midfielder like Bernardeschi in this match, where we will probably try to park the bus and maybe try and only score from a counter-attack (if that's the case, it's annoying we don't have faster strikers...maybe Immobile or Zaza would be better suited, but they haven't been playing that well or scoring much, and at least Pellè will be getting some decent crosses from Candreva)...maybe Sturaro would have been useful instead of Giaccherini as well as a quick, two-way ball winner who can run non-stop; Parolo hasn't been great this year, but I guess he also runs a lot and he's probably best suited to this style of play, plus his passing and positioning is solid, and he can even strike from distance fairly well, although he isn't a spectacular or particularly talented midfielder overall. But what do I know compared to Conte, anyway, lol. Thoughts? Forza azzurri! Best, Messirulez (talk) 17:25, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Ciao, sorry for not getting back to you before the game actually started (watching pre-game at my nonnos), but what a game it was!! Very, very entertaining for the most part. I didn't really like the fact that Conte started Eder (he really proved to do nothing overall)... I guess he made an important yellow card foul, then he was subbed off for Immobile, who had a great strike at goal. What a long ball by Bonucci to set up Giaccherini, and what a great touch that was by him to control and slot it into the corner! Too bad Italy always rely on one goal though... I was holding my breath for the rest of the match! If they continue to do that, I'll have a heart attack by the time they're done! The defending was fantastic for the most part. We are lucky to have Buffon and the back line play together weekly with Juve who know each other's play inside and out. Pretty bad how Chiellini and Bonucci had to pick up those yellows on some tackles, they were blatant, but needed to be made. They cannot continue to do that though as they won't be eligible to play if they keep picking up yellows! Buffon played well for the couple saves he had to make (Naingollan and making himself look big to close off the angle against Lukaku), and Italy created a few chances as well which Courtois saved too. Pelle had two good chances which should've been buried early on off the headers, but did well to score the volley at the last stoppage time minute. Nice patience by Candreva. I think this game will give Italy the confidence they need going forward, and truly think they can go far in this tournament! I would love to see another huge celebration on St. Clair Avenue in Toronto (high populations of Italians where we usually celebrate after huge games, 1982/2006 World Cups). FORZA ITALIA, SEMPRE! Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 01:21, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
Yes, a very big win against the best team in our group and one of the top teams in the competition; I'm very surprised and impressed, although it's still early and we need to make sure that after a good opening result we don't mess up the next two games like we did in Brazil (although we haven't won our first game at the Euros since 2000, and we haven't kept a clean-sheet in our first game since Euro 2004)! We defintiely played better in the first half, where we kept the ball more at times and created more, whereas the second half it was as if Cesare Maldini or Trapattoni were coaching with all the pressure we faced behind the ball, but we defended well, in an organised fashion (really nice work from Conte, Gigi in goal, and the rest of the Juve defence), and didn't really concede many real chances (just a shame about all those bookings we received from committing tactical fouls; they might put us at risk for the last game if we foul a lot against Sweden), although we did give away a few really stupid passes which led to counterattacks at times (Darmian didn't play too well which was disappointing as he has had a good season - he lost it on Lukaku's chance which I was certain would go in - whereas I thought De Sciglio did surprisingly well considering his inconsistency and Milan's poor season); Buffon made a good save on Nainggolan as you said, when we left both him and Lukaku open. I agree Eder didn't do much apart from the tactical foul and booking which avoided the counter-attack, and probably shouldn't have played over Immobile (who really excelled in the counter-attacking system with his pace and work-rate when he came on) or Insigne, but in the end it worked out and I guess I was wrong about the fact that Florenzi should have started over Giaccherini (although you could tell he was slower than usual and didn't have the pace or mobility he used to in one on one situations, although he still worked hard)...he took a bunch of terrible touches during the game, but the touch on the goal was outstanding, Baggio-worthy (great finish as well as he barely had any time or space), and Bonucci's pass was Pirlo-worthy as well! He made a bunch of nice long passes which resulted in good chances for us, and defensively I thought he read the game really well and showed great composure in possession; for me he was probably our man of the match. Yes, Pellè had a great chance from the corner, and Courtois saved well on his header when Candreva crossed it in the second half (he played well as usual and the cross on the second goal was also great, and it was a lovely volley from Pellè - really glad we managed to get a second and keep a clean sheet!). It will defintiely give the team confidence, like our match against Spain last time, and I just hope we won't be overly confident in the next two games; it would be great to get a win against Sweden (also to get them back for 2004 with Ibra's last minute back heel flick over the defence which tied the game) as that would take the pressure off for the final match. Best, Messirulez (talk) 12:56, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: I agree, I hope they don't get too confident. Confidence is one thing, but getting a little too cocky is another. I hope they can deal with it well and get the win on Friday against Sweden so they can levitate some of the pressure against Ireland, as you said. Hopefully, if we get the win against Sweden, we wouldn't need to worry about the Ireland match that much so it wouldn't be a terrible loss if we didn't have Bonucci or someone like that as Ogbonna could come in. That's only if we get the win against Sweden, of course. Our back line needs to watch the yellows for sure. Yes, Giaccherini did very well on that goal, but I do see what you mean about some of his other touches. What stood out to me was that odd touch he made in our own half which caused it to go out of play quite wastefully. And, yes, those weak passes that often get cut out need to be stopped as if any of those were to go in, it would be such a waste. And yes, Pirlo worth free kick hahah. Let's hope this is the start of something great! They can't let this result get to their head, however. They still need to play hard! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:09, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Looks like my think of getting another yellow for Chiellini or Bonucci would only suspend them for a possible unimportant Ireland game was wrong, since they have made a new rule I wasn't aware of in that if they were to get booked again against Sweden, they would miss out on the Round of 16 as well (two games, not one), and the yellow records don't get wiped clean until the quarters! This may look like some trouble since we know Chiellini and his fouls... We can't afford to lose defenders like that for knockout games! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:05, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
No, that isn't good, and it's quite annoying...hopefully Ibra won't anger them too much...it's Chiellini I'm more worried about, although Bonucci can sometimes get into it as well! Messirulez (talk) 14:08, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: haha so true! Chiellini needs to watch it, hopefully it all goes smoothly so we don't have to miss anymore players than we are already missing! Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 14:18, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Not a great performance, but we got the 3 points, and we're through to the round of 16!! And with two games to spare, which is uncharacteristic of Italy haha. And Eder the unlikely hero, I can't believe it! He really did nothing the whole game, but I cannot deny that that was a fantastic finish! I knew there would be some late drama as most of the matches of this tournament have had! I thought our defence was good as usual and if we keep it up in defence we should be able to get decently far. Lucky Chiellini and Bonucci didn't get yellows, although De Rossi did, even Buffon. I thought the referee did well this game. However, in attack, we lobbed so many balls over top of the defence, and they just went too far into the keepers hands on at least 6 occasions. Really wasteful stuff. Our attack really needs to improve. I thought Zaza did well when he was given a chance to appear, and unlucky with Parolo's headed attempt hitting the crossbar! Hopefully we can top the group now, Forza ragazzi! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 17:13, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

It wasn't a good match by any means...the only good thing is that we defended very well (aside from that one offside call on Ibrahimovic which I was sure he would finish, but aside from that no shots on target and finally two clean sheets in a row!), but so did Sweden, behind the ball, and with the team we have we really struggled to create anything. There was very little movement and our players seemed worried and nervous and unwilling to take risks; some easy passes were misplaced and soemtimes we ran too much with the ball and conceded possession, and there were a ton of long balls and crosses which weren't met with runs (some were actually decent, but others were wasteful; in my opinion Candreva also put in 2-3 crosses that someone could have gotten on to, although others were wasteful, but he was still probably one of our best players today). Our only two real goalscoring chances were probably the header by Parolo that hit the bar (one of our few good bits of build-up play, and one of the only good plays by Giaccherini), and the goal, then once we were winning and their defence opened up, Candreva had that shot (otherwise Pellè put a shot way over the bar at the beginning of the second half and Eder had a shot blocked in the first half). But considering the team we have at the moment, it was a great result; and we always struggle in the second match, and we haven't won it since 2000. We knew we didn't have a great team and that we would need to defend and play efficient football in order to progress, and that's what we did, so I suppose although it's not always great to win like this, we can't really expect much more from this team and it's great to be through already for once! Yeah, Eder did nothing in both games, but then all of a sudden right at the end of this match he did really well there to get onto the header, run past the defenders and finish...reminded me a bit a bit of Baggio's goal against Bulgaria in USA 94, although not nearly as good or quite as important, and Baggio was something else! Apparently I read that Chiellini was arguing with Buffon because he wanted to take the free kick and waste time so that he would miss the next match and be available for the knock-out stage, as we had already qualified, but Buffon ended up getting booked instead. De Rossi's booking was unnecessary. Pellè today did not play well but you could see how frustrated he was; his touches and layoffs and attempts were all inaccurate and he struggled to make good runs and hold up the ball as well as he usually does. As much as I criticise Zaza, he did reallly well at putting pressure on players and at holding up the ball and winning duels in the air, especially his knock-on to Eder (who would have thought that they would have combined to score the winner...). There were so many players who were virtually invisible in the first half though (Eder, Parolo, Giaccherini...even De Rossi wasn't pulling the strings...), and Florenzi wasn't as good as I would have expected, but it was his first international appearance in a major tournament and he's young, so he could have been nervous. Hopefully Insigne can play against Ireland and some other players can get some experience as well. Sturaro didn't have much time but he certainly looked very determined and energetic when he came on, so hopefully he can play and do well, too, as he could be a good option to start. Thiago Motta came on late in both games and didn't really have much of an impact, but I can'te really judge his performances from what I've seen. I hope we can get a good draw for the round of 16 depending on the results...we have some difficult draws, but who knows...at least we aren't out in the first round! Best, Messirulez (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Good synopsis of the game, I agree. Wait so Chiellini wanted to get the yellow? But I read that Football Italia article I stated above the other day and it said they would miss two games, so including the round of 16? If Chiellini got booked today wouldn't he have missed the round of 16 too? I was listening to the game in English and the commentator said that they would miss Ireland if they picked up another card, but I assumed he misspoke... Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 18:35, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Hmm...I'm not entirely sure of the new rules to be honest...I do remember that you had told me that you had read an article about the change regarding suspensions due to accumulations of yellow cards...it's possible that he wasn't aware of it (although that seems odd, but it could have slipped his mind), so Buffon told him that it was a bad idea, and in the end he got booked for time wasting instead, and that's what the argument was about; who knows! Fingers crossed for the next round draw and hopefully we can do ok and get through to the quarter-finals! Best, Messirulez (talk) 21:01, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Yeah, that is odd, Probably better it had gone to Buffon anyway as it would be unlikely for him to get another again. Yes, hopefully we get a good draw. We would either face the runner up of group D if we finish first or the winner of group F if we finish second. Group D has Spain/Croatia/or Czech and Group F has Hungary/Portugal/or Iceland. I don't really know what would be better. It would be nice to face Hungary. If they stay in first we should finish in second haha. I wouldn't be crazy about facing Spain or Croatia. Portugal didn't play well against Iceland either. I wouldn't want to face Iceland as they are so confident right now. It will be tough either way... But if we continue the solid performances in defence and improve our attack a little we shouldn't have a huge problem to advance to quarters, and beyond! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:14, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: It is now with certainty that Italy will finish top in their group (first time in major tournament since 2006 World Cup). Although, paradoxically, that could result in a worse match up in the round of 16 than if we were to have finished as runners-up... Now we must face Spain/Croatia/or Czech. Croatia and Spain still have to face each other in their last match with Croatia at 4 points and Spain at 6. It would be nice to see Czech win against Turkey in their last match and Croatia lose to Spain for us to possibly face Czech. It would be a disaster if Spain were to finish as runners-up. Croatia have Modric and Mandzukic injured, which may be good for us... Let's hope for the best. PS: Finally Pirlo's got his first MLS goal, and from a free kick too, nicely taken! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:44, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Sorry to spam you with a notification again (maybe you're taking a well-deserved wiki break :)), but oh my, how dreadful was our draw?! I can't believe that we topped the group for once, and for what? To get Spain. How paradoxical. I think we can still beat Spain though. The thing is, we will have a tough run. Say we make it through, we would virtually face Germany and then France. If you look at the UEFA Euro 2016#Bracket, it seems as if all the really good teams are in the bottom branch, and all the so-so teams (with one or two exceptions) are in the top branch. Rather annoying how we top the group and then have to be faced with all these match ups. Well, we'll see, the boys can do it! Forza Italia! Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:00, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Hi! Yes, I'm away so I haven't really been on here; don't get me started on the draws...it's ridiculous...and I think the third place team system is silly...it was used in the past in the World Cup, but it's outdated to me. We have a tough road to the final, whereas England and Wales got very easy draws, so even though we won the hardest group, then we have to play the second placed-team in the second hardest group...oh well. It's annoying Croatia finished first and that we lost last night (no surprise as we were already first...sure Conte will be annoyed...) but I suppose the match didn't matter and it's nice for the Irish to go through, and they did have a valid penalty shout and more attempts. Hopefully the result will force us to wake up against Spain and at least our starting players will be rested. Bonucci played badly; shame Insigne's shot didn't go in; would have been vet similar to Eder's goal! I really think he deserves more playing time...really hope we can pull off s miracle here. Yes I saw Pirlo finally scored a free-kick; I'm very pleased for him! Best regards! Messirulez (talk) 09:37, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, the draw was unfortunate, but I think Croatia would've been a challenge as well. Perisic said in an interview "Italy should be grateful they don't have to face Croatia!", which I agree with to some extent. Spain isn't the same team from Euro 2012. We would probably play harder against Spain, too, for revenge of the last final. Plus Croatia has many Serie A players which know the style of Italy. Of course Spain has Morata, which knows our back line very well (such a shame he's gone from Juve and only for the 30 million buy back, which Madrid will likely sell him for double that!...They don't even need him - basically snubbed Juve for the money quick return). Yes, we lost to Ireland, but whatever, let them have it haha. We were very experimental, and it will be a different Italy vs Spain. Yes, Insigne's post would've looked similar to Eder's if it had gone in... Shame he didn't start earlier...Probably would've been better than Immobile. I wish El Shaarawy was started sooner too...Bernardeschi didn't really do much, and could've caused that penalty, which probably should've been called. Sirigu played alright, made a good save or two, but made a little error on the goal. Shame Barzagli picked up a yellow too! If Italy get past Spain, and then Germany, it would be such a story! I hope, and believe they can do it! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 13:13, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: What a game! We played so well, I knew we could do it against reigning champions Spain! Now we must face Germany, and history is on our side. Hopefully we can do it! Forza Italia! Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:47, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Hi, sorry for the late reply! Yes, a fantastic result against a strong team; in the first half we were excellent! The second half, we started quite well (De Gea made a bunch of key saves, but Eder really should have scored his chance!) and then we got tried and stayed back for a while, but we did well to get a second to close off the match after Gigi made a great save on Pique. Now facing Germany won't be easy; it'll be a different match to the one in 2012; although they don't have a few important players they used to have, they have the confidence coming off the world cup win and they are a strong side who won't under-estimate us; I'm hoping we can surprise everyone like we did against Spain though, although we will have to be perfect from a tactical standpoint, and right now we are without several midfielders...fingers crossed for tomorrow! Unfortunately, the draw is really quite annoying for us... Best, Messirulez (talk) 01:40, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: I couldn't believe my eyes!! I don't even know what to say... No changes on Conte's part? I love how energetic Conte is, but I think he has made some crucial mistakes today with not subbing players earlier. Well, his last match now anyway. Insigne comes in in the last few minutes of the match, Zaza at the final whistle, only to miss his penalty. Pelle misses. As soon as Zaza was doing that stupid tip-toe run up to the ball I knew he would fuck it up! The record for Italy winning Germany in competitive matches is gone... Buffon does not have a chance at a Euro anymore. Oh how I feel for that man. He saves Mullers penalty, what a save and even almost got the last one, right under his arm! Ahhh. Bonucci goes the opposite way from his in-game penalty, why? This game should have been a final. Whoever came out of this game would win it all. Germany does not have a difficult route now. Oh, what a shame. Our scorers who are meant to score, could not! I know there is lots of pressure and you're facing Neuer of all keepers, but still! So frustrating! Ah, what an ending. I really can't believe it. Finito. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 23:13, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Well...I guess Conte was short on players in his defence, in particular in midfield due to injury and suspension, and I don't think Zaza would have done better than Pelle had he come on earlier, but possibly he could have; maybe Insigne should have been given a chance earlier. Regarding Zaza, I almost would have preferred it if Conte had brought in an unfit De Rossi at the last moment to take a penalty in the shoot-out instead of Zaza (or maybe even another one of our forwards or midfielders), as his penalty was appalling; sometimes you miss because of the pressure (even players like Baggio, Maradona and Van Basten have missed in decisive shoot-outs, so it can happen to anyone), and I'm not annoyed that he missed, but by the way he approached the penalty, with the fact that he was trying to be so clever against an imposing keeper like Neuer, which really annoyed me; and as you said, when I same him do that I was also sure he would miss. The same with Pelle - they both really should have scored or at least shot on target, and if they had, I'm sure we would have gone through as we would have had an advantage at that point. Unfortunately unlike previous seasons we didn't have as many good penalty takers either. I suppose that "technically" our unbeaten record against Germany in major tournaments still stands, as penalty losses count as draws (and are a stupid way to decide matches in my opinion), but unfortunately our unbeaten streak was bound to end at some point and this time I had a feeling it wouldn't go our way as their side was so much better than ours, whereas in the past we had really good sides when we faced them and produced some epic encounters (although this match was also quite intense from a tactical standpoint, albeit not being quite as exciting). Shame that Buffon couldn't get to more of the penalties as he guessed so many of them correctly; apart from the last one (which he should have saved, but then again he was also very unlucky because he gave some height to his dive, as the previous ones were out of his reach, and it was hit low so it went under him) one hit his hand, but it was so powerfully hit that he couldn't keep it out; if not that would have been it. It's a shame he couldn't win the tournament, although he had some satisfaction reaching the final and playing really well in 2012, and at 38, he still played really well tonight and throughout the tournament, and made a great save on Gomez to keep us in the match in regulation time, and really motivated and organised the team from the back as always; it was sad to seem him and Barzagli so emotional after the game. It's a shame because the Germans struck their penalties really well and powerfully; I believe I counted that Buffon guessed correctly on the last five but couldn't quite get to any of them (and also on the first one, as well as his save on Mueller); such a shame, although considering the team we had, and the ridiculous draw we were given (being placed in the hardest group and then having to face the runner-up of the second hardest group as group winner, and subsequently the defending champions in the round of 16, and then face the defending world cup champions in the quarter finals - this match should have been a final, as you said, because it certainly felt that way), we did really well to bring it all the way to penalties, and at least we went out with our heads high, especially as many guessed we would go out early, although I am still really gutted about the defeat, as I was really hoping we could go all the way, especially as Portugal reached the semi-finals without winning a match in regulation time and had a relatively easier route there, although credit to them, especially to Renato Sanches who was been outstanding, a really promising youngster. In hindsight, Bonucci should have probably put it in the same spot, but on the spot it's hard, and he is a defender after all; it's a shame he couldn't also keep his cool in the shootout considering how well he did to score in regulation time. I guess I hope we can keep up the intensive work and team spirit that Conte created and build upon it, and hopefully introduce more promising youngsters, although I'm not thrilled about our new manager, but then again you never know. Fingers crossed. Also, Juve got Dani Alves; I know he's getting older but he's still a good player and I'm sure he could be a great addition to the squad next season. Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 01:40, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, even I was saying that they should have brought De Rossi on just for the shot! He usually is good at taking penalties (other than Euro 2008), blasts them out of the reach of any keeper high to the top corner! I love watching penalties when the team I care about isn't in it since they are fun to watch, but when they are, it surely isn't. They are so stressful to watch. The unfortunate thing is, is that there isn't really a better way to settle it. We can't just have the players playing until the 200th minute, they would be dead. Yes, with the team we had, I guess it was a good run, what a story it would have been to beat the reining European and world champions! Yes, Buffon guessed right almost on all the shots, but even if you guess right, it is still hard. Even Neuer guessed Bonucci's regulation time penalty right, but didn't get to it. It is very hard to take a second penalty like Bonucci did, like you said. Should I go to the same place or go to the opposite? It is hard. I was annoyed though how more players didn't go down the middle. I think Barzagli was the only one to hit somewhat in the middle. Neuer was always diving to either side, and if Zaza or Pelle just struck it in the middle, we could have had it. Like you said, if those have gone in, it would be done since we would have the advantage. But honestly, I thought Pelle was out of it the whole game. Even when he got the yellow, I thought he would be taken out. He and De Scilio would have missed the next match had they gone through anyhow. I don't even blame Darmian for missing the last one either. When it is sudden death like that and reaching 9 kickers, it is hard. He shouldn't have been in that situation! It should have been finished off with Zaza and Pelle from the beginning. When Schwinstegar missed the fifth shot I really thought we would win as it seemed the football gods were on our side and couldn't see Germany beat Italy for the first time competitively (yes, not really a win, but still). In addition to your list of famous penalties missed, how about Messi last week in the Copa America final. He would be the last person to think to miss. He's been to so many finals with Argentina and couldn't win anything. Odd how he announced retirement pretty early. I'm not too crazy about Ventura either, but let's see what he can do. We have a tough group for World Cup qualification too with Spain, so hopefully we can edge them in top spot, as only one team makes it directly through with the second a possible shot in the playoffs! I couldn't even imagine a World Cup without an Italy appearance. Well, lets not think about that now, they can surely do it. We'll have a lot of our injured midfield back. I still can't believe we were without Verratti and Marchisio for this tournament and Candreva for part of it. We gave the best team in the world a very good shot and were even lucky to not get beaten. And yes, Juve got some good signings with Dani Alves and Pjanic, but gave up Morata. I wonder what they'll do with Lichsteiner. And hopefully we can pick up another forward like Sanchez or something. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 02:24, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
@Messirulez: Very sad to see Barzagli go. What do you make of the defence now? I guess we have Ogbonna and later Rugani, but they aren't the same... Those back three were so instrumental together and it's hard to recreate. They were truly the best defence in the tournament. Very sad to hear what he said in that Football Italia article as well, but I have to say I agree. For all they gave, no one will remember. They didn't deserve the draws and defeat they got. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 15:57, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes, it's a shame to see some one with the defensive quality, humility and consistency of Barzagli retire, but I suppose I respect the fact that he feels he can't handle it as much at the age of 35, and hopefully he can focus on doing well with Juve; what a player! He's still had a great international career though, and he did well when he appeared a couple of times in the 2006 World Cup win, and was an important part of our defence in our route to the Euro 2012 final and a third place finish at the 2013 Confederations Cup. He played well this tournament as well, although it's a shame he couldn't achieve a better result with the team, and it was sad to see him so upset by the defeat; I'm glad he at least was able to lead by example and that he was one of the few Italians to convert his penalty well in the shoot-out, especially as he is a defender (more players should have gone for the centre as you said, but I suppose it's easier said in hindsight...). Even though this team might not be remembered as individuals and because we went out in the quarter-finals (especially as we are Italy after all, so even though it was a weak team on paper, we are never truly considered under-dogs...), it was certainly one of the most united team units we have had in a while, and we had a good tournament considering the opposition we had to face, and as we managed to bring the World Cup champions to penalties. Even though Barzagli wasn't as spectacular as Chiellini or Bonucci in this tournament, he is always so intelligent, elegant, and composed, and he reads the game so well, then he helps to organise the team defensively and also plays the ball well out from the back; he will really be missed, but I guess we have several promising young defenders who will gain experience and who could do well; Romagnoli also has potential, and defenders take a while to mature; after all Bonucci only really became a truly world-class defender in these past two seasons, and even Barzagli was a late bloomer. Plus we could always play a four-man defence as well. I agree our midfield will be good once Marchisio and Verratti are back, and hopefully Ventura will introduce more of the promising young players we have who are playing with the under-21 side, like he did at Torino, especially upfront, which is still our biggest weakness (Insigne didn't get much playing time but he showed promise when he came on at least, and did well to convert the first penalty). World Cup qualifying won't be easy, but I'm sure we can do it, and in the past we managed to qualify through a play-off as well, although hopefully we won't have to if we play with the same spirit; I'm trying to be optimistic!

Regarding Messi, yes it was surprising to see him miss in the Copa América final shoot-out (it really seemed to be his year with the draw and his performances, although he did not play well in the final; nevertheless, if Aguero had scored from that pass then it would be a different story...) and I felt really bad for him as he's a great player and he looked devastated, even more so than in the past two finals, and I think his decision to retire was because of that, not due to arrogance, as some have stated. I still think he will come back eventually once he has had some time to get over the loss; I hope so at least as he's a great player to watch and I feel that some are excessively critical over his performances for his country (without him they wouldn't have reached the past few finals, and although Argentina have a stellar attack of individualists, backed by Mascherano, that's about all they have; they don't play as a team and their defence and midfield isn't great, although Romero seems to always be at his best in major tournaments even though he isn't a great keeper), especially when Higuain has missed so many chances in each of the past three finals. In the past four years, however, I suppose Messi's penalty-taking hasn't always been very reliable (whereas before then he never really used to miss!), but in shoot-outs he usually always scored (he scored in the shoot-outs in last year's Copa América final and in the quarter-final, in the 2014 World Cup semi-final, and also in the 2011 Copa América quarter-final), and his only really crucial miss in a big game was in the 2012 Champions League semi-final against Chelsea. Baggio on the other hand almost never missed penalties, which is why the final penalty miss in the 1994 World Cup final was so shocking (especially as Baggio always put them low...), but it was just fatigue and the stress after playing 120 minutes against Brazil in the scorching heat in humid Pasadena with a hamstring injury.

And yes, it's great that Juve got Pjanic as well, who will offer some more quality in midfield and a real goal threat from set pieces, although it's a shame to see Morata go as you said when Real don't really need him, although he could eventually be a replacement for Benzema with his movement and positional sense; it's too bad as he didn't always score, but he would always score in big games. There were rumours that Lichsteiner might leave, but I think he will probably remain as a back-up or at least for some Serie A and Coppa Italia matches, whereas maybe Dani Alves will play in the Champions League; we'll see what happens, but fingers crossed. It would be nice to get another forward as we need someone who can score or create goals, maybe even in exchange for Zaza, although Mandzukic and Dybala are good as well. Sanchez would be good although I'm not crazy about him, but he is a good player. Maybe we could pick up Candreva as well, although it seems unlikely, and it looks like Berardi won't be coming to Juve yet either. It's also a shame that Isla didn't play as well for Juve as he does for Chile! Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 20:55, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

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