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Re: Juve 4

@Messirulez: Too bad Juve couldn't get the win today... It was really Chiellini's fault for the goal... He loses his footing too often! What a pass by Pogba and finish by Lichsteiner though. Buffon played well as usual. Man City is ahead of us now by a point, and they are assured of qualifying to the next round. Hopefully we play well against Man City the next game as we did the last time we met them. I guess now Juve needs to focus on getting some consecutive wins in Serie A first. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 02:17, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Great win today. We have a habit of conceding first, but the boys got the job done. That last goal was amusing. Surprised the initial play wasn't called offside but, I'm not complaining. I just thought, "just our luck again" as they didn't score the first shot, then hit the post, then finally went in... haha. Now Juve is in 7th and climbing up the table slowly. Much more work to do, and they need to continue on this winning path and get some more consecutive wins. We are still 9 points behind first place, so we obviously still need to work. Hopefully get past Milan with a win against them next week! Good result today, and they must keep on coming! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, hopefully slowly we will get back into a good position in the table, and also obtain a place in the round of 16 in Europe in these next few weeks...The first goal was a bit weak...Bonucci made a mistake, and I was surprised Gigi didn't get it as it wasn't very strong even though it was well placed...he almost seemed to be a bit nonchalant about it, and annoyed that the defence gave up possession, although he made some good saves later. We keep conceding on the first shot we face, which is ridiculous, but at least we were able to score goals this time. Yes, the last goal should have been disallowed...but until video replay is introcuded, it's almost useless to complain, and it makes me annoyed when people call Juve cheats when decisions go their way. We would have won anyway in this case at least... Best regards! Messirulez (talk) 22:15, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: All I can say is at least we got the result we needed today. We are slowly but surely climbing up the table. The game wasn't particularly exciting today as it started off slowly and picked up more as it went along.. What a half volley by Dybala though to give Juve the ultimate edge. Donnarumma faced a good amount of shots today, a few that were more difficult than others, but showed he is quick. Especially on that play where Bonnaventura changed the direction of the ball up towards the top of his goal. He did well to change his footing and get to it. Buffon wasn't really tested much and other than the fact that it was his 20 year anniversary and that he tied the record for the second top appearances, it was just another game for him. Now the focus shifts toward a big match on Wednesday with Man City! We really cannot afford to leave without a point. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:11, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it was quite a boring match, but as you said, it's a good thing we got the three points and overtook them in the table! And yes, Donnarumma did fairly well; it's nice that he gains experience but the media shouldn't overhype him as that can put excessive pressure on a player, especially if he were to make a mistake; in that case he would be bashed and that could really bring him down, although so far he has demonstrated a lot of maturity for a player of his young age. Yes, I really hope we can get a result at home against Man City...they don't deserve to be first in their group...they have been so fortunate to pick up wins in their second and third matches; so far we have been the better team in our group in my opinion. Best, Messirulez (talk) 23:42, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Today's game was far more exciting than against Milan. There is something about Champions League football that gets me pumped! The win today was well deserved and could have easily been 3-0 Juve. Hart made a few excellent saves to keep Man City in it. Beautiful cross by Alex Sandro into the box for Mandzukic to knock home. This is why Allegri needs to give him more chances. Buffon made a critical save on that corner, which was definitely harder than it looked to control that ball. He also broke another record passing the second place holder for Juve all time caps which is nice to see. We secured a position to the next round which is all that matters. Hopefully we can even top the group. Today Sevilla lost so if we beat them or even draw depending on other results, we could top the group and await a hopeful draw on December 14. Champions League won't resume until February, so now the focus is back onto Serie A where we must reach top 3 by the start of the next rounds. It will be fun to see Dybala play against his old team on the weekend. All the best, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:50, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes! I'm so pleased, what a result!!! Two big wins, hopefully we can keep this up and top the group! Were you able to watch it or did you only see the highlights because of classes? If not I hope you can rewatch the game! It might not have been the best game, but it was intense! Best, Messirulez (talk) 23:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: I did watch the game, I streamed it online while I was in class this time!!!! hahahha, I probably shouldn't have, but I wasn't going to miss another intense match like this! Pellegrini and Toure said Juve were "lucky" in a post game interview but they must be smoking crack to think that! It easily could have been 3-0 Juve and think we had far more chances even though we had slightly less possession. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 02:19, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Ha ha, well it was a big game...and there were quite a few chances. I don't think we were lucky...we both had good chances (some on which both sides completely missed the goal from good opportuniteis) and although it was fairly even and they dominated some parts of the match (as did we), I think we were more deserving overall; we were sloppy at times, but I think we also had our moments of good football were we kept the ball well, and City are a team that can also keep possession and have the players to win it back as well. Buffon did well on Aguero espeially; I was very surprised Marchisio made that error...it happens. Thankfully Buffon was able to stop Aguero. He did well on the corner, too, and Hart also made a very good save. Now hopefully we can get a good result against Sevilla and top the group and also get a good draw in the round of 16! Best, Messirulez (talk) 15:59, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, exactly. We need to get a result against Sevilla and hopefully get as lucky as we did last year with our draws! Don't get me wrong though, Man City did play well, I just think that our chances were much more probable for goal scoring and in the end it could have been easily 3-0 Juve, but could have been swayed obviously either way which almost happened a couple of times. Thankfully we are usually sound defensively and proved to be for the most part yesterday. I forgot about that play with Buffon and Aguero. Yes, that was a good heads up move by Buffon to come out of his crease rather far and corner Aguero up like that so he had a bad angle to shoot at. I was more fixated on Buffon's save off that corner as Juve usually concedes off corners so I am always on the edge of my seat when we are defending corners. Bother were good heads up plays. All I know is, is that we definitely were not lucky by any means. For Pellegrini to say we were lucky in BOTH games is just being a poor sport. haha Anyways, regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, in the first game I thought it was ridiculous when he said we were fortunate...it may have been an even match, and they had good chances (which were saved well by Buffon), but their goal should have never been allowed (an evident foul on Chiellini who otherwise wouldn't have put it into his own net), and we also had a valid goal disallowed...the important thing is the result! And yes, I understand your anxiety when we face set-pieces...we have been shaky on those in recent years. Overally we definitely defended well and didn't concede too many chances, which was always good to see!

Hi! So, last night was his 100th appearance in all UEFA Club Competitions with Juventus (100 presenze bianconere nelle coppe europee), indluding his Europa League and UCL appearances, but he made his 100th Champions League appearance against Borussia (at the time he had made 90 with Juventus and 10 with Parma). The source for his 100 UCL appearances I added says that before his match against Milan he had made 100 appearances in the UCL ("Buffon conta 777 presenze in carriera, 100 in Champions League" - that one might not be good enough; in that case it can be removed, but it's just annoying that I can't find any articles that stated that more clearly as I would have thought it would have been a big deal for a player like him to reach 100 UCL appearances...), whereas the one for the match last night says that against Man City he made his 100th european appearance with Juve. Messirulez (talk) 18:03, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi! How are you? Hope you're well! Yes, it was quite a tightly contested match, and then finally in injury time we managed to close it off which was good. We didn't play particularly well at first but then towards the end we kept the ball well...Dybala put in a nice cross for Mandzukic and the plays and the last two goals were nice as well; I'm glad we got the win and are slowly moving back up the table. Best, Messirulez (talk) 14:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Nice win today vs Lazio. Asides from the own goal, Dybala, the second goal, was fantastic! Just in awe. What a strike low and right in the corner, couldn't have been placed any better. Marchetti almost got there, mind you, he was pretty upset after the goal. When I used to play, I would play keeper, and would always feel like that when you miss a save by such a small fingertip margin. So I know how he feels, but it was such a great goal and not his fault obviously. 5 wins in a row now, keep on this track and we will be at the top in no time! Sevilla on Tuesday, to top the group now. Here we go! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:30, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: If you have not seen this video already, I recommend watching it! It's great. Top 10 saves of Buffon. I don't agree with some of the order they put the goals in, but all great saves. Number one is that save on Inzaghi! Inzaghi's face after Buffon did the impossible is priceless!!! Music makes it much more intense too! Context of the save/goal definitely makes it stand out more in people's minds, which is why the World Cup save against Zidane is often noted as his best save. Same should be the case with Giovonco... I think the save against France is Buffon's top 3 saves at least. It all comes down to the importance AND quality of the save. I believe you can have a much better save in match that doesn't really count and then have an almost equally as good save in an important match which will be a much better save in my eyes since the importance is so much greater and the pressure to make a save like that as well! You've been watching the game much longer than me, so you can probably pick out more saves of his. Some of the saves in the video go back since the beginning of his career, which are great! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fjKp_FCvRvE Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 14:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, good win against Lazio, and a very nice second goal by Dybala! And yes, I have seen that video, and there are some very good saves, although in all honesty I think it's difficult to compile a top 10 saves video when it comes to Buffon! There are plenty more fantastic saves that he has made throughout his career; I also really like the save he made on Recoba in the Champions League playoff against Inter. He has always been very good, but especially between the 2001-2008 period he was incredible, making amazing saves constantly! Messirulez (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Haha, yes very true, when it comes to Buffon, the amount of terrific saves are endless! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:44, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: What an exciting game today! Although it only ended in 1-0 for Sevilla (sadly) it was a high intensity match! Rico the Sevilla keeper played on his head! Wonderful stops! Mind you Buffon made some great saves today too! Luckily on that other Sevilla goal he was offside, it always hurts to make such a great save but not handle it and then it be cleaned up with a tap in... Too bad Dybala hit the cross bar!!! That would have allowed us to surpass Man City... They went ahead late in the match with the German team winning for much of the game! The last 10 minutes of a football match; anything can happen! Good for Llorente though for getting a goal against his former team. If anyone would have scored I would have wanted it to be him. We are unseeded for the draw, but drawing a better team might be good for us as we usually pick it up better with a good team for some reason! We'll have to wait and see December 14th. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:55, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, a good game from a fan's perspective, but unfortuantely the restult ultimately left me quite bitter as we threw our lead in the group; Sevilla were pushing more in the second half, but we still had so many chances which we wasted once again (Morata in particular on three occasions at least, but also Pogba and Sturaro), and Dybala came close hitting the bar...and he had two good shots which just went wide); I think it should have finished 1–1, but unfortunately we were unlucky, we didn't mark well on the set-piece, we didn't take our chances, and Sergio Rico was on fire today in goal (as was Buffon I must say). I'm really annoyed Man City topped the group when they were so fortunate to get wins against Borussia and Sevilla in the first leg. Oh well, we are through at least, but we need to do better and clean up these issues in attack and in defence if we want to go further, and it won't be easy if we get a bad draw, which now we risk doing. It's just so frustrating we couldn't get the result, and that a decent but aging player we gave away after a disappointing second season (for free I might add...) scored againt us (great header though - in all honesty we should have kept him, he played well today - I don't know why we got Zaza...he's ok but I don't think he's a star; we should have jsut kept our rights to Berardi in my opinion). It was an unfortunate corner to concede by Barzagli after he made up for his team-mates' mistakes; I don't know why he was put on Llorente on the set-piece though; he is our best defender, but he's not the strongest, and he's not the best in the air, whereas Chiellini had been so good in the air against Llorente all game; Barzagli was on him and marking him tightly, but he just couldn't out-muscle Llorente. One problem is that we would get into a good position and then we seemed to pass it on to the full-backs and run out of ideas, and we would waste chances by putting in crosses which were too close to the keeper. It is true that sometimes facing a better team early has motivated us more, as you said, like last year. Anyway, we'll see how it goes...we had a tough group so at least we made it through and showed some decent football. Regards, Messirulez (talk) 22:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes we did waste lots of chances, but we also hit the target on a decent amount as well. When Morata missed that glaring tap in, that was frustrating. If that would have went in, that goal would have given us the confidence and ease to the game. I mean Sevilla did give it their all as you said since they wanted to qualify for the Europa League at the very least. What adds to the frustration was how the German team lost their lead in the last few moments of the game. Even with a Man City loss, we would have gone top no matter what. I agree about Berardi too, as we've discussed in the summer when we sold him. He is still young and a top prospect. Is price would only have gone up if we kept him. Yes, I found that we crossed in balls too close to the keeper far too often. Rico gobbled them up several times with no trouble. I think Alex Sandro did well today, whipped in a few good crosses today, one notable. Allegri is finally giving him chances over Evra. Alex Sandro's attacking minded play is better suited then Evra's defensive minded approach in my opinion. As long as we can avoid Real Madrid and Barcelona in the next round, I honestly believe we can beat any team if we put the work in. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 03:35, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Alex Sandro has been doing well, and I like him as it's nice to have a full-back/wing-back who can actually get down the flank, beat players off the dribble, and whip in good crosses, whilst still being solid defensively, although he was a bit wasteful in one vs. one situations at times once we were trailing; I liked Evra last year, although he isn't getting any younger and he isn't as offensive minded, although last year he was a good option on the left he was better technically and at crossing than most of our full-backs, and he still had decent pace and stamina, in addition to his physical, defensive, and aerial attributes; I almost wish one of them were a right back so they could both play as I feel they might compliment each other (although Barzagli did quite well as a right back...great player who is so underrated). Lichsteiner is solid and can run non-stop, but I don't think he's good enough offensively or technically, but in a 4-man defence I suppose they would work as Lichsteiner would be slightly more defensive minded (even though he is sometimes prone to lapses in marking). Yes it's a shame because we had good shots on traget with Morata, Dybala, Sturaro and Pogba, but Sergio Rico was just on fire and was saving everything. Sevilla ARE a tough team, who have won the Europa League several times, and I can't believe they were in last place before this game. It's also a shame because at least if Manchester City had only tied we would have still been in first place regardless, but as you said they went and won it in the last 10 minutes; if only Dybala's shot that hit the bad had god in; I was hoping he would score since he hasn't in Europe yet, and he was probably one of our better players last night, even though he gave up possession badly at one point which led to the counter-attack on which Llorente almost scored and Buffon had to make a great double save (great turn in the box by Llorente though...I swear I hadn't seen that sort of stuff from him in a while at Juve though...maybe he needed a change of scenery to refind his form). Oh well, hopefully we will get a good draw. The fact that we beat Man. City twice and played well against Sevilla shows that we can be competitive, so yes, I suppose we could match most stronger teams, although I was hoping to avoid one until the quarter-finals at least! Haha. Best, Messirulez (talk) 13:11, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: I too liked Evra last year, but as you said he's not getting any younger. This year we picked up Alex Sandro to be his next replacement and after a few chances Alex Sandro was given; Alex Sandro > Evra. I've always liked Licsteiner; he might not be the best, but he gets the job done. Mind you, he's not getting any younger either! And yes, Barzagli is very underrated. I remember in a recent game (I forget which, might have been in the CL) he was playing very offensive like Alex Sandro would! Coming up in the plays rushing down the wing, putting in good balls! I wasn't really used to him playing like that, but he actually did really well I found at it! The three at the back unit of Chiellini, Bonucci, and Barzagli though is like a wall on most occasions. I think I read something a month back that he would retire from the national team after Euro 2016... As we've said in the past, I'm not too sure about the Italian defence after he retires, and Chiellini probably after the next World Cup... I guess we have young prospects like Rugani, but still. It seems that our youth isn't quite making up for the quality of the team, especially defensively. It would be great though if Barzagli came to TFC with Giovinco next season if he chooses! After this season, we know TFC needs help with their defence! I honestly believe with a defender like Barzagli and a striker like Giovinco, we could win the whole thing! Gio couldn't do everything himself this year, we needed a defender. And yes that's what I mean; for winning Man City twice, that shows Juve they can match any quality team! And how Dybala gave that ball away, that was wasteful, but at least we had Buffon in net! Even on one occasion Bonucci lost a foot race and a Sevilla player got in behind him but lucky Buffon closed the gap and made him shoot just wide! Bonucci doesn't usually make mistakes like that. Last time I recall was when he slipped on wet grass or got that red card against Malta last year! That's why it was surprising, but I think we were already a goal down by then which was probably why he was a bit higher up. Last year we were unseeded as well and got a fortunate draw with Dortmund. Can we have the same luck twice in a row? Imagine we draw Zenit! Too be honest, I wouldn't want that. I mean, look at how we played against Mochengladbach... I think if we get a decent team like Wolfsburg/Atletico/Chelsea, even Man City for round 3! that would be good for Juve. Not too weak, not too strong. Even if we were to draw a team like Barcelona, if they play like it would be a walk in the park and Juve plays as if it were the final and have some vengeance in their belly's, Barca can risk going home early, and what a shock it would be! The amount of confidence Juve would have would be enormous! If they think like that anything is possible! Overall it is what it is and whoever we draw we need to make the most of it and have that fire to play and win! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 14:13, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I think Alex Sandro was a great purchase...there don't seem to be many decent full-backs anymore, and he has everything: skill, pace, stamina, defensive and offensive ability, and he can cross, too. Yes, in addition to his intelligence, Barzagli showed his versatility and did well as a full-back when Lichsteiner was out; he's actually quite good on the ball and a decent passer (a great cross in the first leg against Sevilla I believe), a traditional Italian centre-back in that sense (people seem to think that most were rough and lacked skill, like Chiellini, but Maldini, Nesta, Cannavaro, Costacurta, Bergomi, Ferrara, Baresi, etc. were all excellent on the ball!), and although he isn't incredibly fast, I was really surprised to see that he is still quite quick for his age. Yes, I think if he went to TFC that would certainly help with a lot of the club's defensive problems, and with him, Bradley in midfield, and Altidore and Giovinco upfront, Toronto could definitely go further in the playoffs; he would definitely make a difference! Yes, Bonucci made a bad mistake there; he hadn't made some like that in a while, but Buffon played well; unfortunately I don't think he could do anything on a chipped header like that. At this point, I think you're right, it's no use complaining anymore as it's the Champions League, and in order to go far, you have to beat good teams at any stage of the competition; we did well against some good teams already, and last year we finished second, so as we didn't top our group we are just going to have to face whatever challenge comes our way and try and show that we are still one of the top teams in Europe! Best, Messirulez (talk) 13:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

TFC Giovinco

Hi, hope you're well! I'm glad to see Giovinco won the MVP, well deserved, but how did he not win goal of the year (and looking back, how did that goal not get named goal of the week!?) The goals are similar, and Nemeth's goal is still good, but it's a sloppier version of Giovinco's in terms of dribbling technique; he makes some good changes of direction, but the defending is poor as two players fall over, and it is at a slower pace; his finish is also easier with his strong foot. Giovinco's goal was at a faster pace, against the top ranked team, with his "weaker" foot from a tight angle, and it was the match-winner which qualified Toronto for the play-offs for the first time ever; moreover, he scored it after playing for Italy in Rome the day before...maybe they didn't want to give him all the awards, but I think it's ridiculous how that wasn't named goal of the year. I don't know if you agree or not...maybe I'm a bit biased! Messirulez (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: I've been well, thanks! Things can always be better though, no? :) Hope the you've been well as well! Yes, I too have been following the MLS awards closely as Giovinco's name has been surrounding many of them. Don't worry I 100% agree with you and I am a little biased as well since I'm from Toronto, as well as liked Giovinco from Juve being Italian as you know already. So we are in the same boat! I've watched both goals over and over, as you have too I imagine. But honestly, biased or not, I truly believe Giovinco's goal was much better. I mean both goals are still good as you said, but I would put it exactly like you did, it was slower and sloppier in a sense. Also the context of Gio's goal should also be noted as you did; to come from playing in Roma just one day before is just insane that he comes back so recharged and gets a goal of such class! My theory is that the larger American population voted for Nemeth's goal simply because he played for an American team. I don't know if you know much about Canada and American relations (having gotten to know you, you probably do!) but although we are neighbours, we do have a huge, huge rivalry. Especially in sports, hockey and soccer. And we all know Americans think very high of themselves and think they're so much better than everyone else (to put it frank because it is true for the most part). Knowing this, and knowing America's population is much bigger than Canada's 35 million to 320 million, I honestly believe they've had enough of the new star player Giovinco, who plays for Toronto a Canadian team (sort of a jealousy) so they just voted for Nemeth to snub Gio and Toronto. I don't agree how it is a vote. The MLS should decide it themselves so thing like this don't happen. I don't know if you'd agree, but that is what I think, seems like the only explanation. Especially since I follow MLS on social media and in comments sections all Americans say Nemeth's goal was better and all Canadians say Gio's was better. Again I always get a bit salty but that's how I am when I feel strongly about something haha, regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:24, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• By the way, two days ago I stumbled across your user page, and noticed an IP vandal made an edit on your user page and I reverted it. The thing is, is that they made the edit a week prior and you didn't catch it? Your own user page should automatically be in your watch list I'm pretty sure... Maybe you missed it? In any case it's reverted. Just wanted to let you know. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 01:31, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I'm doing well thanks! Yes, I think it's normal for there to be intense sporting rivalries between neighbouring countries! However, I still can't believe that the MLS didn't decide which was the goal of the year and that it was ultimately left to a popular vote...the other goal was still very good, and it is quite incredible how similar they are, although, as we have said, Giovinco's goal was certainly superior from an aesthetic and technical standpoint as his control is cleaner, he is quicker, and the shot was more difficult. Furthermore, as we have both said, I believe a goal's quality is also measured by its importance and the circumstances surrounding it, and Giovinco's goal, in addition to being spectacular, certainly was important and historic for TFC; it's why Zidane's volley in the 2002 Champions League final, Maradona's goal of the Century, or Van Basten's in the Euro 1988 final are also remembered over other spectacular goals which were scored earlier on in those competitions, as, in addition to being fantastic goals, they were so important. It's the same with saves; although I think Buffon's save on Zidane in the 2006 World Cup final was fantastic, I actually don't personally think it's his best save ever from a purely technical standpoint (I think his save against Paraguay in an international friendly was more difficult, but it was in an international friendly...I also like his save against Inzaghi in the 2003 Champions League final, but Juve lost that time...), however, given that it was in the World Cup Final, against Zidane, and that it kept the score level and was ultimately decisive to the win, those circumstances made it so much more than just a really good save! Thanks for letting me know about the vandal and for reverting the edit; I actually was not notified about it, which is odd, so I added the page to my watch list now and hopefully I will be notified if something like that happens in the future. Best, Messirulez (talk) 07:18, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Re: Italy/U21

Hi, hope you're well! Sorry, I had been away, so I wasn't able to come on here, just so you know that I wasn't ignoring you! Yes, it's a shame because Italy played very well against England and even against Portugal; unfortunately they paid the price for their mistakes in the first game and their inability to score against Portugal. I won't comment about how they went out...so unlucky to go out in stoppage time. It's a shame because I think Italy could have won it all seeing that those two teams were the finalists and didn't play a very convincing final. At least the ended the tournament in crescendo and showed that they have promise, which is probably the most important thing at that level, but still, it's disappointing that they couldn't make it past the group stage! Messirulez (talk) 02:11, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh, and yes, I just realised I didn't answer your question - in this case, goal differential doesn't count (although it's a bit annoying as in other competitions it does), but rather "direct encounters", so as Sweden had beaten Italy, Sweden had the better head-to-head record and went through! Hope that helps. Best, Messirulez (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, seems odd though they would do it like that... Hope you enjoyed your time away! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:42, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Messirulez Have you seen the FIFA World Rankings?? Italy is at their all time lowest in history at 17th dropping from 13th! Teams like Croatia, Romania, Austria, Wales, and Slovakia are ahead of Italy! This is very embarrassing and can see why we are not seeded for the WC draw.. Hard to wrap your head around this. Thoughts? Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:56, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Well...it's annoying, but it was expected I suppose with the poor World Cup results that we wouldn't be ranked too highly, and we knew that we couldn't lose the friendly to Portugal but we did anyway. However, before this, we had come off of a good Euro and Confederations Cup and before that we were top of our group and undefeated in both qualifying groups, which were also quite tricky...we haven't been doing as well as we should in the Euro 2016 qualifying which has been the problem, and also we almost always do poorly in friendlies, but we are still undefeated and in second place in possibly the most difficult qualifying group. I personally think friendlies should be worth almost nothing in terms of ranking - I feel that they always end up lowering our ranking. I don't see how certain countries can have a higher ranking when they didn't even qualify for the last World Cup! There is a formula which is used to calculate the ranking, and it seems to make sense, but evidently it is flawed as other factors should be taken into account (e.g. a team achieving qualification and the top ranking with matches to spare - why should total points matter afterwards?). Oh well. Sometimes we struggled more with a higher seeding anyway. This team is certainly one of the weaker ones I have seen in a while though, which is a bit worrying. Our keeper situation is good still, and for now Barzagli and Chiellini are solid defensively, but once they go, I don't see any top central defenders top replace them; some are ok, but not quite consistent enough despite being talented (Ranocchia, Astori, Ogbonna, Bonucci). Our midfield is very good, something which we have sometimes lacked in the past in fact, but our atttack, as we have so often discussed, is quite weak, and lacks composure in front of goal and a true scorer. We also lack good fullbacks, although generally good fullbacks seem to be becoming more and more scarce in this era. Hopefully Darmian and De Sciglio, who are still quite young and talented and have some potential, will turn out to be good players. Maggio is too old now, but he was very good between 2010-2013 I thought. Criscito was unlucky to be excluded in each tournament under Prandelli - I think he should be given a chance now, and I wish he would come and play in Italy again. It's a shame that Santon hasn't lived up to his potential, but hopefully the youth team will bring up some exciting prospects. It's a shame because fullbacks were usually one of our strong points in the past (Maldini, Cabrini, Tassotti, Panucci, Zambrotta, Coco, Burgnich, Facchetti, Grosso, Paolo Negro, Pancaro, Oddo, Benarrivo, De Agostini, Francini...even Pessotto and Di Livio were good despite being they were less technically gifted - they were solid defensively, versatile, and ran non stop, and Di Livio could cross well. Today probably even players like Carboni, Mussi, Minotti, and Favalli, who were ok but not spectacular, could make the team!). Messirulez (talk) 12:25, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Very, Very good points as usual, Italy needs to get back on track with their fixture against Malta in early September and then Bulgaria a few days later, of which they drew last. And I agree about what you said about friendlies in the rankings as we have discussed before as well. And you make a good point when some of the teams I mentioned didn't even make the last World cup and are higher! In fairness though, teams like Slovakia and Wales are doing well in their Euro 2016 qualification groups, but still frustrating. And yes hopefully we will be able to get some good attackers from the youth squad to perform like Berardi and Belotti, even fullback Zappacosta I enjoyed watching him in the u-21 Euros and think he has potential. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 15:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Well, fingers crossed we can assemble a good team; I really want to see us win a European Championship soon! We were so unlucky in 2000 in particular...only 30 seconds from victory! Messirulez (talk) 02:12, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Messirulez, have you seen the UEFA draw for the 2018 World Cup? Italy being in pot 2, got Spain, which I think is not too bad considering they got off to a slow start in their 2016 Euro qualifying campaign, but would have been truly blessed if we drew Romania... We also have Albania and Israel which are also dark horses which could be a slight threat since they are doing well in their Euro 2016 qualifying right now. It is tough as only the top team in the group makes it directly through, while the second team would most likely go into a playoff, which could be risky. This is why we must take our chances when facing the weaker teams as they MUST be WINS or we could be very embarrassed if we do not, as we cannot afford to lose since we have to play Spain. Also with Juventus' 2-0 friendly loss today against Dortmund... Hope it is just the pre-game jitters, trying out new players and plays. I thought they played decent, but obviously did not capitalize on their chances. However, it was their chance to show themselves early on against a good team. Especially after winning 3-0 in the Champions League against them. Thoughts about both? Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm very annoyed about the 2018 World Cup draw, because of all top seeded teams, we had to get Spain, and also some other teams will be tricky, although the rest are largely easier than the opponents we usually have. We almost always play stupidly in qualifying; we always go for the bare minimum, and we have struggled against Isreal and Albania in the past, so it's worrying, and we've been doing the same thing in Euro 2016 qualifying. We would often also do the same in the past as well (e.g. 1994, 1996, and 1998 qualifying...), but we always had such a ridiculously good team, with great depth, which everyone feared, with an excellent defence and world-class strikers (especially Baggio), so we could grind out results without trying, and leave it up to some individual magic (our weakest area was probably the midfield, but mainly due to managerial stubborness and a fixation on the 4-4-2, in my opinion, as we still had good midfielders; ironically, this is our strong point now!). We now lack such players, so, as you said, we can't seem to score even with an empty net in front of us! Some of the other groups are just ridiculous, however; I know I'm repeating myself, but the FIFA ranking, although it makes sense in theory, is flawed, because so many other important factors are not taken into consideration, just results (e.g. final tournament ranking, final placement in a qualifying group, winning a group undefeated or early, head to head record vs. highly ranked teams in competitive matches, etc. - I know it's hard to judge these, but I think bonus points should be awarded in these cases...), and friendlies really should count for almost nothing. With Juventus...yes, it's always a bit worrying because we've lost some key players, and we played badly (except for Buffon and a few players who were ok), but (this is just my personal opinion) I never take pre-season friendlies into serious consideration (I think Milan beat Real Madrid last year? In 2010 Juve even beat Real Madrid, and one time we even lost against the Primavera side!); they're good for helping players gel I think, and for trying out new players and formations. In the past they used to have friendly summer trophies between Juve, Milan, Inter, etc. and they never really meant anything! I have no idea why we even played a friendly already; the team has barely even started training, so I have no idea who organised the friendly schedule! Borussia Dortmund have been training for a while already, so they had definitely had more practice than us! Messirulez (talk) 01:46, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Messirulez, yes I remember Milan beating Real Madrid last year, 4-2 I believe. Dortumund have been in training for almost a month now and have had 6 or 7 pre game friendlies already! So I think Juventus just need to settle in a bit more as they have been only training for a week or so like you said. And yes Buffon played very well as usually even with his age. On the second goal, Reus obliterated Bonucci with his pace making him fall down! That was not a good sight to see... I thought that was poorly defended as they kept on backing up until Reus just fired it as Neto could do nothing about it. There is a point where you just need to intervene and challenge or tackle! In regards to the national team, Italy need to first focus on making it past the Euro qualifying which I think they should be good for, especially with Croatia being deducted a point for that swastika they had on their field! But after the Euros it is full swing for the World Cup qualifying and hope that they can top the group above Spain. Hopefully the squad will develop a bit by then and can give them a run for their money. Hopefully playing against a team like that will give them the motivation to play hard as they usually lack the will to give it their all when they face weaker teams and find themselves struggling. Italy usually shoots themselves in the foot when it comes to qualifying. They could afford it when they had a very strong tam, but now it will come down to only a few points. Since only the top team makes it through with the second team going to a risky playoff, Italy could easily be made embarrassed and need to have a wake up call if they want to qualify! The bare minimum will not do for the 2018 World Cup Qualifying! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 03:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Bonucci was awful on the goal, and was looking like his older self rather than the more confident and consistent version of him we saw last season, so I hope he picks it up again. Euro qualifying should be ok, yes, although I hope we can top our group just for our own ego and pride; mind you, in the end, qualifying is the most important part, and topping the group hasn't helped us in the past. 2018 qualifying will be difficult indeed, but it's still definiltey possible, even through a playoff if need be; we just need to play with the correct mentality and attitude (not so nonchalantly or listlessly), and hopefully some young strikers who can actually put chances away will come to prominence over the next two years, so we can actually win all these games in which we dominate in possession, but cannot convert. Sometimes having a strong opponent has helped Italy in the past, as you have said, so there could be a surprise there; after all, Spain are still very good, better than us, but not the team who dominated football between 2008 and 2012 (No more Xavi, Puyol, Villa, probably Casillas and Xabi Alonso soon, and Iniesta isn't getting any younger either, and other players are ending their prime or have declined a bit), and they also had quite the shock exit in the last World Cup. Messirulez (talk) 16:11, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, Spain is not the team they used to be. Italy just need to put the work in and realize that the qualifying will be important as it will not be a walk in the park without even trying like they usually do. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:12, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately that has always been one of Italy's greatest defects. I think we demonstrated this quite clearly in 2006: we played our worst matches against the USA and Australia because we underestimated them, as they were probably our "weakest" opponents (even though they had very respectable teams at the time, and evidently gave us trouble, and we were extremely arrogant about the fixtures in the pre-match interviews, which was stupid and disrespectful...), then against the hosts and favourites, and our historical rivals Germany, we play one of the greatest World Cup matches ever seen to reach the final! Haha. Messirulez (talk) 21:29, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

,:) yes that was a fantastic game! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi, what did you think of the past two games? I say, it wasn't the best football, but at least we got the results - that's the important part. Usual problems...but then again we have struggled in qualifying even when we had much better teams! Messirulez (talk) 17:26, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Messirulez Ciao again, indeed it was not the best football played, but we did get the needed results as you've said - crucial results at that to take the top of the table, as Norway are right back into the mix. I feel we had a better game against Bulgaria, as Conte played better players in my opinion and there was a bigger motivation. Buffon again has showed why he is still number one choice by making 2 great saves. We were fortunate to be awarded that penalty as I think that could have gone either way. And with De Rossi's red card, that should not be happening with his level of experience. We were again fortunate that the Bulgarian player got a red card as well. Against Malta, there was some speculation as to if Pelle hit it off his arm before it went in. Hard to tell, but nonetheless, that was a great cross from good vision by Candreva, and were lucky to put the ball away. We had some bad lucky especially when Gabbiadini struck a great shot that hit the crossbar. Hopefully with a win over Azerbaijan next month will seal our spot in the group stage. On an unrelated note, weird to see Netherlands struggling to qualify in 4th place, with the smallest nation to make the Euros, Iceland already have a ticket for Euro 2016. And hopefully Juve can get their season back on track with a much needed win over Chievo! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 20:09, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Messirulez, great win today. We have sealed our spot for the 2016 Euros! Hopefully with a win on Tuesday, we will seal top spot as well! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:46, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, great to be qualified early...yeah, I know we only need a draw against Norway to top the group (which I hope we do), but we are playing at home, so I hope we will win against them, although it will be difficult to earn the top tier for qualification regardless...I think that if Belgium were to beat Israel, then we would have to win by many goals...maybe Giovinco can even start (too bad Insigne and Berardi are injured) - he played well in the last 10 minutes against Azerbaijan...nice runs to earn the free-kicks and it's a shame it wasn't just a bit lower. Too bad Bonucci and Chiellini messed up on the goal...that annoyed me because I was worried they would park the bus and we would struggle to score and risk finishing the match with a 1–1 draw. Great assist by Verratti on the first goal (what a player...that pass was worthy of Pirlo), and then a nice play by the forwards and wingers on the second; Darmian also did well to intercept and finish first time from outside the area. Best regards! Messirulez (talk) 00:49, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Messirulez, hello again. Great late win today with Pelle's lovely half volley! We came top of the group, however Belgium won... Do you know how it works from here on out with top seeding and what not? I recall that the group winner from each group usually gets seeded into the top pot with all the other group winners? Maybe that is only how they do it for the World Cup or since they added more teams this year to the Euros maybe they changed up the rules slightly? Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:21, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

I was glad we managed to come back and win it...I was annoyed we were losing given the circumstances, with the usual silly goal. I don't think Montolivo should have played...and I would have been happy to see Giovinco start or come on at half-time...he was involved in Florenzi's goal and came close himself (in games like this he is much more dynamic, and is more motivated to play for Italy and less concerned about injuries; he's also very confident, happy, and in good form at the moment). The rules as always are silly when it comes to determine the top seeds; we had a more difficult group (we had Croatia...), and we also earned more points. I can't remember exactly what determines the seeding ( I would have to look it up), although I remember reading that it was something to do with goal difference, and how it wasn't as good as Belgium's, so, as both we and Belgium won they get the top seeding; I remember reading something along the lines that if Belgium had won by one goal, we would have had to have beaten Norway by at least four goals... Messirulez (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: The new FIFA rankings put Italy up 4 places to 13th. Would have been nice to be there a couple months back to get the World Cup qualification seed... At least they moved up though. Belgium is in first place!!! I just don't get it. We've said in the past how weird the way the calculate these rankings are, it really is true. I mean Belgium is a good team but first place? Over World Cup winners and plenty more? Belgium won their Euro qualification group, but frankly it wasn't s hard group and they didn't take it by a landslide... Ah, it is what it is I guess. I think the group stage of Euro 2016 is going to be drawn in mid December, so let's hope for the best with that. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 15:48, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's ridiculous, as always. The system seems to make sense on paper but it is obviously flawed...I really don't see how they can be first when they didn't even obtain as many points as Italy (they even lost a match), in a group which was arguably easier...they did ok at the World Cup, but nothing spectacular, and friendlies should barely even count for anything; club friendlies don't count, so I don't know international friendlies are given so much importance. And yes, the rankings should have been changed for the seeding for the tournament, not now...that's also ridiculous. I'm annoyed about the result on Tuesday...After grabbing very fortunate wins in the last two matches, Manchester City this time won deservedly and are now first in the group and have qualified; now we have two difficult matches left. Borussia aren't an easy team, especially away from home, but Chiellini messed up badly on the goal, and Hernanes can't go in like that with two feet...these are problems we need to avoid; 1-1 away a man down is an ok result, but we shouldn't have even been in that situation. I'm glad for Lichsteiner to come back and score after a difficult time for him, and it was a nice ball by Pogba. Buffon is still playing very well...seeing how well he's still been performing now, it's even more ridiculous that he wasn't nominated for the Ballon d'Or...but of course, Blatter would never re-open the voting to include him; that only happens with Cristiano Ronaldo... I know I'm repeating this, but I thought Buffon would have deserved to at least be a finalist for the Ballon d'Or though...not to win it (Messi definitely deserves it, despite the injury - FIFA better not pull a fast one like 2013 again), but 3rd place would have been well deserved; to me he was more decisive than Neuer was for Germany in the WC last year - Neuer is a great keeper but I don't remember him being particularly tested. Bravo had a good year with Barcelona and a good Copa America but didn't play in the Champions League, and wasn't better than Buffon, and Ospina definitely shouldn't have been there ahead of him. Even Courtois (he played well but didn't get far in the CL) and De Gea (who didn't even play in the CL last season...) shouldn't be ahead of him, as good as they are, and were last year. Messirulez (talk) 17:25, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Thoughts on the past two friendlies? For the first place team in the world, Belgium, we gave them a decent go to begin with, but then went downhill obviously after the second half. Belgium did somewhat dominate. And Chiellini was fortunate to escape a red card. He does tackle rather foolishly at times. As for today's game against Romania, the first goal was poor defending, sort of a mixup between Barzagli and De Scilio I think. Marchisio sniped that penalty top shelf. What a goal. And good on Gabbiadini for getting his first international goal, although that was very close to being offside. Of course Italy concedes close to the 90 minute mark... They need to see out their victories. Sirigu would definitely want to have that goal back as we fumbled it rather awkwardly. I am sure it was harder to control for him than it looked. Too bad they couldn't get a win out of the two fixtures, as even the friendlies as we've discussed count for something.Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 14:17, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I was disappointed about the match against Belgium...I think we should have tied, but you know how we play during friendlies, and in all honesty they are kind of pointless at this point of the season and shouldn't count for much in the FIFA ranking even though they do, which is why it's annoying we didn't do better (mind you some of Conte's choices in the line-up were odd, but I guess he is giving players experience). Bonucci gave away a silly pass from which they scored and that changed the game; we were very shaky defensively, but we also had chances to score and we didn't. It was ridiculous that Eder missed that chance from a metre in front of the goal; yes it was a high ball, and he isn't known for his ability in the air, but he has no excuse not to hit the target with his head there. The game against Romania was also disappointing. Darmian and Barzagli made a poor and uncommon mistake on the first goal, a hapless misunderstanding, but one that shouldn't have occurred nevertheless. Eder should have been given a penalty at the end of the first half; that was a ridiculous mistake on behalf of the ref...clear red card as well. I didn't think Sirigu's fumble was entirely his fault actually, although he should have held onto the ball...I didn't think it was the easiest save, and he's out of practice because Blanc seems to think that Trapp is better, when he isn't... Regardless we should have defended the set piece better...another one of our issues; as usual, we give up one chance from a set-piece and we concede a goal. We are conceding too many goals in general (I think we have conceded 11 goals in 10 matches in 2015...which is very disappointing), and we should have scored more as we dominated and had several opportunities - Eder was also stupid to dive in the area when he could have possibly just gone past the keeper and tried to shoot, even though it would have been a tight angle. I was annoyed we didn't win the match, but then again, the penalty in the first half would have changed the match, and unfortunately Gabbiadini going off injured and leaving us with 10 men which didn't help (he should have played a throughball there instead of trying to shoot...he wouldn't have been challenged if that had happened)... Messirulez (talk) 17:26, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Right, I was mistaken, it was Darmian! My bad.. Let's see what Juve can do tomorrow against Milan! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 18:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, hopefully we can get the win against Milan... It will be an exciting match for Buffon, playing against Milan again 20 years later...and he will equal Scirea with 552 caps for Juventus as the club's second highest appearance holder behind Del Piero. It should be exciting for Donnarumma to play against his idol as well...hopefully he can be a worthy heir once Buffon decides to hang up his gloves! Messirulez (talk) 23:49, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Italy has again dropped in the rankings. A friendly loss and draw is enough to drop you two spots! Again, ridiculous, but what can we do? Wait and see for the Euro 2016 group stage draw on December 12. In other news, Canada's national team went up 14 spots to 88! Still pretty bad haha but pretty decent considering our highest was 40 and only qualified for one World Cup. We are doing pretty well in the qualification phase (second last round) right now, lets hope it continues. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: ^ (You may or may not have seen what I wrote above before.) Anyway, the groups, the groups. Well, I guess we drew alright? I mean we did face Belgium last month and gave them a good go. Obviously it was just a friendly, but at least we have an idea now what they were like. I wish we drew England, as we always have a good standing with them. I guess Belgium isn't that bad since we could have gotten Spain or Germany. Then again, we have very good standing with Germany as well! I really don't believe Belgium deserves to be in first place. They beat us out of fifth spot in pot 1 by a close margin. Pretty annoying that Italy was placed in pot 1... We had Ireland in our group last Euro too and think they are the least of our worries going into the group. Sweden had to go through the playoffs to qualify, but you never know. Ibra is someone to watch out for. I think if you were to ask anyone what their prediction for our group E would be that Italy and Belgium hands down go through. But didn't everyone think Italy and England would go through for last World Cup? Pretty much, but it was the exact opposite now wasn't it. Yes, there were a few bad calls and some controversy which swayed what could have, or should have happened. But the main thing is, is that the two better teams went home. If Italy is not careful, the same thing could happen again. Again, I think it all comes down to attitude and mindset. If their heads aren't level, they might as well not even show. They must come prepared to face any team of any quality and win. The main priority is to win every game, obviously. They can't go there to rely on other results in the group. They must control their own destiny. Again, as usual, we have either the hardest or second hardest group, I think anyway. (Spain's group is decently hard, Turkey is a real dark horse). Well, all the best! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:46, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm not quite sure what to make of the draw...it's not great, but not terrible either I suppose! Sweden and Ireland aren't the teams they used to be in the early-mid 2000s, but they are still tough to face, as they have some decent players; Sweden still have Ibrahimovic who is still a superstar and can create something out of nothing. Belgium are a very good team, but obviously we were lucky to not get Germany or Spain of the top seeded teams. It won't be easy, but hopefully we should be ok if Conte can just somehwow manage to motivate the team to do its best against the weaker teams in the group, and if we want to show that we are still a strong footballing nation, then we have to do well here. Hopefully an Italian striker will emerge this season...maybe Insigne (I know he isn't a real striker, but if he can get goals, I'm happy with that!) or possibly Berardi. No, Belgium doesn't deserve first place; the ranking system doesn't make sense. England doesn't deserve to be above us in the UEFA rankings either. Last World Cup...I don't know what happened; we started off so well against England and were one of the more convincing teams it seemed, then Costa Rica just took everyone by surprise (good for them; they deserved it, they had a great tournament!); I'm sure the climate, the atmosphere, and the local support helped, but we also underestimated them and made mistakes. The Uruguay game was a joke though; the refereeing was disgraceful because that "foul" by Marchisio was one of the stupidest calls I have ever seen, and he booked Balotelli for a high challenge when both teams had been doing that all match and he never booked any of Uruguay's players; up until the sending-off we had been controlling the match and, aside from a few chances, Uruguay didn't seem too dangerous. I don't like going on about bad decisions because Italians are stereotyped for doing so, and indeed against Costa Rica it was our own fault we lost, but the ref against Uruguay was sub-par. The fact that nothing was done about the Suarez incident leading up to the Uruguay goal made it all the more frustrating.

We are notorious for starting slowly and scraping through the group stage; the tournament could go either way, but hopefully we can get through and do well. I do believe even the two best third-placed teams can go through in the new system (I find it a bit ridiculous; the old system made for a better more competitive tournament in my opinion), so we have better odds than usual, but we just can't keep doing the minimum and hope for the best (also because that would to a bad draw in the round of 16 if we went through in 3rd place...), as you said, otherwise we risk yet another early elimination. I don't know what you think, but I don't really see a clear favourite for the tournament at the moment; obviously Germany and Spain are still strong, but in my opinion they don't look quite as dangerous as they were in the past. France have a decent team I suppose, same with Belgium, and Poland have been doing well...we'll see, it should be interesting! Messirulez (talk) 21:16, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Messirulez: Yes, the Uruguay game was outrageous. This kind of thing seems to be happening a lot! Especially with Italy for some reason! I mean look at the recent events: Italy at the 2010 World Cup, that game against Slovakia should have gone our way. All we needed was a tie, and Iaquinta's goal was definitely not offside to me. Then in the 2014 World Cup, the Suarez incident happens. I mean, the ref saw the bite marks in Chiellini and didn't bat an eye. What made that incident even worse is that they scored a minute later to makes matters worse! If we went through, it would have been controversy anyway, but since it was a direct cause for Uruguay's goal, that made all the more commotion. And yes, I believe 4 out of the 6 third placed teams go through by having the 4 highest points out of the 6? Either way, we don't want to be third because we'll get a worse draw as you've said. I don't think there is a clear favourite either. If all else fails with Italy, I would really like to see Iceland progress far! I loved their determination in the qualification round, even against Netherlands, they played amazing, qualified early and almost topped the group! The smallest nation to qualify for such a tournament. Anyway, first and foremost, Italy obviously must shoot for the highest! We do have a tendency to scrape by like you said, which really annoys me. Another draw to see on this Monday for Juve in the CL! Lets hope for the best! And with Fiorentina tomorrow, we can really climb the table much faster if we come out with the 3 points we need!
  • You may or may not know today Balotelli posted on social media a picture of Italy's group with the caption "I can't wait!". I was reading an article on Football Italia, and they said some reporters asked Conte about this. Where Conte says "Can't wait for what? To watch us on TV?" What do you think about this? I mean, I know Balotelli has a temper and a bit of an attitude issue, but that doesn't take away what a good striker he is. And now, with Italy being unable to find a true striker, I personally think he'd be an asset to have. I think he is better than Pelle to be perfectly honest... His last run with Milan was actually really good. He's gone through a lot with racist remarks being thrown at him, so maybe that drives his temper up more. I don't know why Milan fans would do such a thing to one of their own! Its just dispicable. He was born in Italy! At the time, he played for Italy, got us goals we needed, especially in Euro 2012, and people still chant racist remarks. Really upsetting. Conte did go on to say that "anything can happen in 5 months and says that if he proves himself like everybody else has to, he has a chance". Hopefully he gets off of injury soon to be able to prove himself. I think that he should be called up if he gets off injury, as well as Rossi, I always liked him, and even Giovinco for God sakes, he has had such a fantastic year and has shown he is a real quality striker capable of scoring many goals. I'm sure they could find away to play some of them along with Immobile and/or Insigne. I just think that Pelle, even Zaza are just sub-par. I don't really know what Conte fully sees in them to be honest. Pelle has gotten goals for us, but just don't think he's the best we can play. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 21:36, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

• Yes, hopefully Juve will get a good draw, and unfortunately we did have some unfortunate decisions go against us in 2002, 2010 and 2014; against Slovakia, yes that goal wasn't offside, and there was also Quagliarella's shot which was cleared off the line and it was unclear whether it had gone in or not; it just annoyed me because in the international football media they made such a fuss about Lampard's goal and instead the brushed the Italy match off because we often complain about decisions. Yes, it's nice that a lot of countries have qualified to the Euros for the first time and Iceland really impressed in qualifying; it must be very exciting for the fans, and it was a great effort from the teams! I'm happy for De Biasi, as well, who I always felt to be an underappreciated coach, and now he brought Albania to the Euros! I hope for a good match against Fiorentina, one of our historic rivals, so it's always fun to play them; and yes hopefully we get a good draw for the knockout round as well in the Champions League!

• • Regarding SuperMario...I read the article on Gazzetta about what Conte said; although it wasn't the nicest thing, he was joking, and it was exaggerated slightly in the title. In the transcript in the article it says that Conte responded "He [Mario] can't wait for what? To play in the Euros or to watch us play them on TV?" then it said that he laughed. Then he basically said, as you pointed out, something along the lines of his door being open to anyone in the next 5 months, but that he needs to see results in order to be convinced, and that the players that got him to the Euros have put alredy their heart and sweat into the team and have convinced him so far. So he wasn't entirely ruling out bringing Balotelli, but he definitely continues to be unnecessarily reluctant towards calling him up. Despite his defects and antics, I've always liked Mario and I feel sorry for him as I think he needs help and support more than anything; I think he had a difficult childhood, and no matter what, I agree that none of us (especially caucasian Italians!) can fully understand what he went through, especially when it comes to the racism and xenophobia he faced and continues to face, so it's not right to judge him or criticise him for his attitude, because often journalists try to provoke him (like with the Striscia la Notizia incident with the Milan shirt when he was with Inter - I don't know if you know about that; he didn't want to put on the Milan shirt when the Striscia reporters gave it to him when he was out at a bar, but you could tell he was worried they would say he couldn't take a joke if he refused, so he put it on, and then he was attacked by the media the next day and had to make a public apology...ridiculous!), and so do other players, and the refs target him all the time as well, whereas someone like Cristiano Ronaldo never gets punished for diving. Mario undoubtedly had great potential (right now if he doesn't do something with it soon I'm worried he will end up like Cassano...an unfulfilled talent), and he demonstrated that at Euro 2012 and at the Confederations Cup, and even at times with Man City, Inter, and Milan; we've never really had a striker like him: he's quick, powerful, strong, fit, and he also has good technical skills; he's also good in the air, he can strike the ball well, and he can also play off other forwards...his issues obviously have nothing to do with his talent or his skill, but with his mentality, work-rate, and behaviour, as everyone says. His character and lack of consistency are always a problem because he's so volatile, and he can be walking around aimlessly, not helping his team at all at one moment, and then he can suddenly score a bicycle kick 5 minutes later! Right now, he has been injured and out of form for some time, but if he can get back into form and play and score consistently, then I'm all for him going, especially as we don't really have a true striker, as you said; along with Rossi he's definitely our most talented forward, as you also mentioned. It's really unfortunate that Rossi has had so many injury problems and has yet to play in a major tournament with Italy considering his talent... I think Conte will definitely bring Giovinco though; he probably won't start, but he always liked him and if he keeps playing well for Toronto, I don't see why he shouldn't; he still has excellent speed and technical skill, and against teams like Ireland and Sweden who might park the bus, but aren't the best defensively, he is our only player (except for maybe Insigne, if he keeps up his current form - I'm not crazy about Eder, he's too unreliable even though he has talent and started off the season well) who can really dazzle defences with his pace on the ball and create something, as he showed in qualifying. Immobile isn't getting enough playing time and has been inconsistent but he isn't bad, but not a superstar either; I don't mind Pellè actually; he might not always score, but he works hard and he is probably the best centre-forward we have right now in Conte's side (although that isn't saying much at all!) and he can play with his back to goal and has done decently well in England; he isn't the world-class striker we need though, and shouldn't be starting for Italy...he's no Vieri, Inzaghi, Rossi, Schilacci or Toni... Zaza, hopefully he will improve in the future, but right now he isn't good enough; he works hard, but that's about it, but he's still young at least, so hopefully he will improve with time, for Juve's sake as well. So yes, I would agree that, as we lack a goalscorer, I think it's probably better to bring Balotelli along, even if only as a substitute! Regards, Messirulez (talk) 02:25, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, I agree with what you said. The media always tend to exaggerate things don't they! I hope Balo can show his potential again soon because he isn't getting any younger and it may be wasted like you said. He has shown it before, and can show it again. I think he's matured since he played last and think Conte should give him a chance. ...Pelle isn't that bad, he has scored 4 goals in 10 caps, but they weren't against the best teams. He hasn't played many games, so maybe he has more to show. But most of the players we have up front haven't played in a major tournament before as you said. I know Conte likes to give youth chances, but sometimes you have to have good amount of veterans in your squad. Having Buffon and Chiellini is good, but we need a veteran up front too. I wouldn't necessarily call Balo a veteran, but he's really the oldest striker we've got... Giovinco has never really been a starter, he seems to be more of an off the bench guy when the opponents are tired nearing the end of the match to use his pace to catch them off guard. Even though, I wouldn't be opposed to even starting him sometimes over Pelle or Eder or whoever it may be. He has shown his ability to play the full 90 minutes in Toronto, so I think Conte should give him more chances. It seems that Conte and Prandelli have different tactics. When Conte first arrived, he started off really well with I believe 7 wins in a row. Then things sort of went down hill, and hopefully they pick back up to where they were in the beginning. Eder needs some work, but he is young too. I remember that late goal he scored in the Euro qualifications against Bulgaria when we were down 2-1 to allow Italy to a at least tie, and what a scorcher of a goal it was, on his debut at that! I remember when Conte wanted to include him, Mancini gave his two cents and said the national team should be for Italian born talent only. He was against Eder and even Vasquez from being called up. Which I sort of agreed with, but then Conte replied that if Camoranesi was allowed to lead the Azzurri to World Cup glory in 2006, why can't Eder/Vazquez (Vazquez certainly shouldn't be called up unless he is a reserve) do the same in Euro 2016. I saw where Mancini was coming from, but if you hold Italian citizenship through relatives even though born in another country, I guess it is allowed. That seems to be the case a lot with Brazilians and Argentinians. Too bad Dybala wants to play for Argentina! haha. Call me crazy, but even calling Berardi wouldn't be a bad idea, but I guess he is still a little young. But he is almost the same age as Verrati, so I mean it can go either way. It is a shame Rossi couldn't play more play more with all the injuries he's had. Hopefully he is considered when Conte does the call ups. I've always liked El Shaarawy, Cerci, and Candreva. Although they aren't strikers obviously, I think they help the attack tremendously. Candreva is usually played, but I think the others are almost of equal quality, although they aren't the strongest. It is more of the strikers job to be strong anyway, which Balo certainly is. I guess what I'm saying is, is that even though the national team is "struggling" to find offensive talent, they do have it kicking around if only they look and mix players around! Even Gabbiadini deserves more chances. He scored a pretty nice goal not too long ago. If the attacking isn't working how it is, I don't know why Conte wouldn't try out some new players. Ahead of friendlies against Spain and Germany, I really hope Conte puts these matches to good use and tries to experiment before the tournament. Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 04:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• No, I personally don't agree with what Mancini said either, and his statements came across as being xenophobic; in this day and age, in such multi-cultural societies, I don't think anyone can really judge if someone is "Italian" or not, so if they have citizenship and are eligible to play for Italy, then they are Italian in my eyes, and I have no problem with them playing for the national team (not that this matters anyway, but as you said, to those who say those players like Eder and Vazquez aren't really Italian, many South Americans have Italian origins...in addition to Dybala, even Messi does...wish he could be playing for Italy right now...that would sort out our goalscoring problems!); as you said, Camoranesi helped us win the World Cup! I thought it was a shame that Thiago Motta wasn't yet able to play for Italy in 2010, when he was still in his prime with Inter...maybe with him in midfield we would have gone through to the second round! And as we said, with Balotelli, the whole situation was stupid, because he was born in Italy and lived there all his life, his first language is Italian...how is he not Italian!? I hope he has matured so he can play in the Euros and silence his critics. I just haven't been entirely convinced of Eder's performances, that's all I meant; he scored that great and important equalising goal on his debut, but since then, although he has showed some moments of class, I guess like all our strikers he has been indecisive and inconsistent, and although he's in his prime he's not all that young anymore, 28 I think? In that case I wondered why Conte didn't just start Giovinco maybe. I would like to see Berardi make his debut as he deserves it, and I hope he can repeat his goalscoring performances of the past two seasons and work on his temper. Cerci...like Immobile, he has talent, but like all our forwards, he's been inconsistent, and El Shaaraway, like Rossi, unfortunately has struggled with injury so hopefully he can find his form in France again as he was a real talent and I liked him a lot. Candreva to me should be an undisputed starter; he is always decisive and consistent for Italy and he works hard and is a good all-rounder. Gabbiadini has also been playing well...we have some decent strikers I guess, the problem is we don't have a player who we can guarantee will score goals, and they aren't consistent enough, so one match they will look like the players we need, and in another match they will be disappointing and lack the creativity to make something out of nothing to decide a match, or the composure in front of goal. In that respect, Balotelli has usually scored quite often for Italy, and, as you said he has more experience than the other players, which is also important. I think for the final-23, the defence (Buffon, Sirigu, Perin; Darmian, Barzagli, Bonucci, Chiellini, De Sciglio, Antonelli, and hopefully Criscito) and the midfield (Marchisio, Verratti, Florenzi, De Rossi, Candreva) plus or minus a few players are more or less set, it's still the front line which is the problem. I think it's a difficult situation because at the moment I just don't know how many other talented young offensive players he has at his availability to try out, because the talented youngsters aren't getting much space and although they will hopefully be good eventually, right now they lack the experience and consistency to play in an international tournament for a team which hopes to be competitive, and he also needs to create a good team who know each other and can play from memory almost. Messirulez (talk) 17:24, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Jeez, is Eder really that old? Haha, he looked a lot younger to me for some reason. Upon searching him, he turned 29 last month! I don't think he is much of a starter. I was just pointing out one of his class moments that stuck out to me (he hasn't had much since then). To me Candreva should be a consistent starter as well. Also, your talk about consistency is very important for the team, which as you said, our front line hasn't been consistent much lately. Conte really has a tougher job than people expect. It's hard to test younger talent, yes, but that's what friendlies are for; and ahead of friendlies with quality teams like Germany and Spain, I think he really needs to put those to good use. Yes, it's sad that a few of potential class players like El Shaawary and Rossi have been injured so much during their career... Just to be clear, I don't agree with what Mancini said; at first he seemed convincing, but upon Conte's rebuttals and references to Camoranesi, etc. it was obvious to see what Mancini was saying was wrong. Having a form of "racism" like that, is virtually as bad as Balotelli's situation. As you said, very frustrating to see him being "made fun of" for his colour. I would love to see him silence his critics and even show the Italian fans that he is Italian and loves Italy, obviously as he showed at the Euro 2012. After he scored those goals against Germany, you could see the amount of passion he had, and how emotional he really was inside. That cele too! Haha. Too bad they got slaughtered against Spain. They just got it all wrong... To be honest though, I think even if Italy were to win a big trophy and Balo played amazing, there would always be those people that would still not accept him as Italian, which would be absurd! It's just something he'll have to live with and hopefully cope better with, because he needs to understand there are far more fans out there that love him, than the fans that can't see past his skin colour! You don't think Pirlo will be a starter? Man, I just love Pirlo. I mean, his presence, like Buffon's is just like no other. Obviously he is getting older, but I think he can have one more good tournament. I remember when he was announcing his retirement after the World Cup 2014, that was pretty sad, but then when Conte was appointed and Pirlo wanted back in, that was great. Even though he can't run around, etc. he doesn't need to. He is a player that just needs to control the ball (with Pirlo's footwork, that's pretty easy for him), set up beautiful plays with his tremendous vision and accuracy, and take those "very much within range" free kicks. Although he can lose the ball sometimes frivolously, he is a great asset. I guess Verrati and Giovnico can take pretty sweet free kicks too, but when Pirlo steps over the ball, you just have the utmost confidence that 9/10 times he'll net it.

• By the way, about Caceres, I originally put loan in brackets in the heading of Juventus, like you did, as well as the Sevilla heading, since he was loaned there too. (If you have it in one heading, it should be in both for consistency). But then the Portugues editor reverted it, then I added it back without the loan attachments in the heading to make it "less cluttered" for him. I usually like adding the loan attachments as well, but for the other editor's sake I left them out... Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 17:52, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• No, don't worry, I was saying I disagreed, like you had also said, with Mancini's comments! :) I love Pirlo as well, the best deep-lying playmaker and long passer of all time, hands down (just as good as Xavi in his prime in my opinion, especially in terms of vision, just a slightly different player although simialar in their function), and one of the greatest dead ball specialists ever, although I'm not sure if his legs can handle it anymore; he seemed really tired last season and didn't play too well in New York which was surprising (and I couldn't believe he didn't score any free-kicks!), as I thought with Villa up-front and Pirlo's passing and the space he would get, he would top the assists chart for sure (although then again the MLS is quite athletic, and Lampard was also disappointing in his work-rate and fitness as the box-to-box player considering he was also a superstar...he also seems to have declined from a physical, and athletic standpoint, and obviously Pirlo needs support there), but then again he was out of form and out of shape as he had just finished a long season with Juve, which included an injury and he went on holiday, later returning to play in an expansion MLS team without a proper pre-season training regime...if next year he plays well again then, which I'm sure he will, then I would bring him along. The only issue is that I feel that Conte doesn't like playing both Pirlo and Verratti together (why!? tehy are similar but Verratti tracks back and is quicker...and Montolivo who is slower played alongside Pirlo under Prandelli...), and Verratti needs to start as he is a future superstar who is starting in one of the best clubs in Europe. But having Pirlo in the group even as a sub and to take free-kicks would be good, although Candreva and Giovinco are also good on set-pieces at least (although Pirlo is still the best by far) and Verratti, De Rossi and Florenzi are also decent. I guess he still has great feet and still surpriginly covered a lot of ground last year, but he seems a bit more error prone and just not quite as sharp or accurate as he was a couple of years back, sometimes losing the ball, and I don't know why considering he was always so classy in possession; I guess Marchisio and Florenzi could still run for him and support him defensively! It's defintiely an option, we'll see. It would be nice to see him play at the Euros and I hope he can make the playoffs with New York next season and have a great year to show everyone he's still class! Messirulez (talk) 18:09, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Piping / Others

Well, many many editors tend to pipe ALL clubs in ALL instances (box, storyline, charts of stats), but there is no written rule to be honest, just a matter of preference. My choice is the one I explained in my last message which you have already removed, and I elaborate more (for example Morata: 1st part of intro, "...who plays for JUVENTUS FC as a striker". Then, in the 2nd part of said intro, only JUVENTUS, that second part will stay there forever and it's just for a gist of his career, the first we never know, he may change clubs in the future, most players do indeed.

English clubs: maybe due to the fact this is the English WP, I have never seen an instance where an English club is written in full in storylines, ever, all I can say. Last but not least, the loan sub-sub-sections: picture the scenario, if Cáceres (or any other player for that matter) was to be loaned eight times during his contract to Juventus (or any other organization), how many sub-sub-sections would we have to insert (JUVENTUS, followed by LOAN TO BARCELONA, RETURN TO JUVENTUS, LOAN TO SPARTAK, RETURN TO JUVENTUS, LOAN TO MONACO, etc, etc)? Hence the term "clatter"; and, my kind fellow user, I don't "control" any article, it's just my "forte" is Portuguese(-related) and Spanish(-related) football(ers) articles, I won't be giving you any "problems" other than in these four players (and, considering Llorente is a "goner" and Cáceres and Rubinho will most likely soon follow suit, only Morata stands in our way, so to speak :)).

I know you only want to help, as do I, please let's reach a compromise of sorts. I know you are not User:Messirulez, you are not obliged to think like him of course, but I brought these pointers to his attention when he inquired, and my reply to him was satisfactory (as I thought yours was after we discussed the Llorente changes, now I think you see differently). Happy weekend, forza Juve and Athletic Bilbao! --84.90.219.128 (talk) 16:02, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• OK, the current approach to Cáceres seems very neat to me, nice job. --84.90.219.128 (talk) 16:08, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

If you want to be a sport and help out, WP would appreciate it. Could you please take a look (I bet two, three minutes will suffice to you) and see if the translation of the references I added to Antonio Filippini and Emanuele Filippini is correct? Quite a pair of legendary twins... Grazie mille, ciao! --84.90.219.128 (talk) 16:27, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Hi, everyone! So, I don't know how much help I will be; hopefully I have understood everything! Not that I have too much experience, or that there are any formal guidelines to go by, but I don't usually see club names written in full, especially in the body of the articles, also as sometimes it would be inconvenient (like if one had to write F.C. Internazionale Milano each time for example, which is techncially the club's official name; I know that most people write Inter Milan, or Internazionale or Inter F.C., but in that case why not just Inter, if you're already referring to the club in an abbreviated manner), but I suppose there isn't anything wrong with doing so either, as long as it's consistent; it might just seem redundant after the club name has already been stated once in its full form. The same with links of club names I would say...I think that in the info-boxes, and stats boxes, it might make more sense if they are repeated, as to me it might look better. In the lead, I can understand using the second link after the first one in the intro (e.g .... is a professional footballer who plays for XXXX - with a link); it makes sense, although I haven't seen that too often. But in the different sections of the body of the artitle, and in the image and quote captions, usually links to club pages are used once, but after that they aren't re-used as that would lead to over-linking would it not?

• Regarding sub-sections, in the Cáceres article, once his career is ended, then I might consider adding the Juventus loan as a subsection, if there weren't any others; otherwise it does become cluttered and untidy, especially if there is not substantial text under each section; another solution might be to include a sub-sections with "loans" if there are several for certain footballers; I'm not sure what you think about that as a possibility. The Cáceres article, however looks good to me as it is, so I don't really have a problem with it.

• Anyway, I hope that I understood everything and that what I said made sense and seemed reasonable!

Best regards to you both, have a good weekend! Messirulez (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Hi again, I don't know if you looked at what I said to our fellow Portuguese editor on his talk page: Where are all these rules regarding piping clubs? You seem to be throwing a lot of piping rules at me "English clubs are always piped" "Real Madrid is always piped". Again, do not take offense, I just want to see where this is stated, since the articles you "control" like Llorente, Caceres, and Morata have this piping, but then thousands of other pages use piping everywhere (not just lead). Also in regards to the loans headings, they are indeed not "clatter" and included almost on every article, especially if the loan had some significance it (not just an early career loan where they barley got played). In Caceres' article especially it looks quite misleading as in bold it says "Juventus return" without a first Juventus sub heading. It looks very odd and could cause confusion to the reader. The addition of a header like that only causes more clarity. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 15:34, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• There turns out to be no written rule as he pointed out, just preference I guess, but doesn't necessarily mean his preference is correct... I guess since he follows those articles closely, he can keep what he likes :)

In regards to his translation requests: The translations appear correct to me. Messirulez is the real expert though, as he lives and breathes the language. Non c'è di che. Feliz em ajudar! Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 16:53, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with what you wrote and it did make sense. He pointed out that he has always seen English teams piped to their shorter form, which I too always see, however, I more often than not see almost all other club teams piped as well. Other than the pages he watches over, I rarely see a club used in its formal long form. I just believe always stating the clubs long form would become a burden to the reader. It doesn't really enhance the readers idea of the club in anyway. Most clubs have a "F.C." attached to their names anyway, so it becomes sort of redundant. As you said, there is no need to write every time Inter's full name; it becomes long and again, redundant to the reader. When you or I add a club's title, we (I can't fully speak for you) never keep the club's name in full. I hope I am correct by saying that. For simplicity's sake it just isn't needed. For example if you look on Champions League articles, you will never see a club left in full. In regards to Caceres, his loaned sections (which I've added section headings to) have substantial information present so it isn't like a one sentence deal where a heading is not need. That's why I thought the headings would be beneficial as you can see from my above posts. Especially since one of his headings was "Juventus return", it made sense to have a section with just "Juventus" so it would not confuse the reader when his original spell with the club was. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

• Yes; I think sometimes when there are no actual rules and it only comes down to personal preferences, then users have to compromise and meet somewhere in the middle, which you are both doing in a cordial manner, which is always a good thing! :) I know I had a similar "issue" with the use of "Striker" over "Forward" on certain articles, as I thought that Forward was more general and was better suited to certain players like Aguero, Messi, and Luis Suarez, whereas striker can refer to a forward in general, but often implies the goalscorer; I eventually left it as it was a minor, pedantic, and rather subjective issue on my part. I suppose if we really wanted to have a formula of reference to follow in future, we could always open a discussion page. With the club names, I agree that I don't usually see them named fully, but once again, it depends on the articles; often with the lesser known Italian football articles I clean up, the club names are listed in full, and I'm never sure what to do; admittedly I'm not always entirely consistent on this, because sometimes, for convenience, I will list the club name fully with the link at the beginning, and then just reference it briefly in the abbreviated form without a link; with the larger, more popular articles, however (like Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, etc.), I always refer to clubs in their shorter form (i.e. Juventus not Juventus F.C., or Milan, not A.C. Milan, etc.), as those articles seem to follow that format, but once again, this is my personal preference, not an actual rule. I suppose that means that I need to be more consistent in my editing work! haha.

• With the Cáceres page, I think both arguments are valid; I remember that a while back on the Cáceres article, I had also made a Juventus loan a sub-section under the Barcelona paragraph and he had pointed out similar, valid reasons for why it was better to leave it as it was, so I left it and was fine with that as the page was still clear; it does make sense in a way, because Cáceres was initially loaned to Juve again in January 2012, before being bought back in June, so it could be argued that, for consistency purposes (and this would be excessive) then one would need to specify the loan again in a sub-heading under the Sevilla paragraph, and then have another section heading for Juve when he officially transferred to the club. Having said that, I don't think there is a problem with making only the first Juve section, the loan one, a sub-section either, as he later moved to the club permanently, and this is his sixth season there, so in that sense, I do think it could warrant its own sub-section; maybe we could suggest even renaming the title of the Juventus section to "Juventus loan" and see if that would also be acceptable? Thoughts? Then again, the Italian article has the exact same layout as the English article currently does, so it seems to work now as well! Messirulez (talk) 22:07, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: On the piping note, many clubs, especially "lower" teams (especially Italian, I don't know if this is how it works with other nations), they would often have Carpi F.C. 1909. In this instance when they also have the year involved, I would definitely put the club in its shorter format and make it Carpi for simplicity. Carpi is also a better known team now so it can be written in short form I believe. That being said, lots of lower league teams like in Serie D, etc. have names similar to this. For a random example, A.S.D. Calcio Chieri 1955. This club would probably be better of being left as the full form, just because it is a lower league team. However, after used once, it could be written in short form from there on out. In regards to Caceres, he was loaned to Juventus, then loaned out to another team, then brought back to Juventus for another loan, then while on lone at Juventus, Juve then bought him. I think I a got that right? If we were to add a section of his second spell at Juve (the shorter second lone) it would literally only include this "On 31 May 2011, Sevilla agreed a €3 million deal plus €1.5 million in variables with Barcelona for the permanent move of Cáceres to the Ramón Sánchez Pizjuán Stadium.[13] In late January 2012, however, he returned to Juventus, on loan.[14]" This would be an insufficient amount of information, I think, to be included as a sub section. Since his second loan and his permanent stay at Juve were successive to each other, I think only two total Juve sections would suffice. Alessandro Matri has moved around a lot, translating to many sub sections on his page as an example. Even if it may be a little cluttered, it may be very well necessary. I think just because a player has moved around, doesn't mean we exclude the proper information and headings. It is what it is. I think not having the headings like how it was on Caceres' page before would cause more uneeded confusion to the reader. At least with the headings, everything is organized and can easily be found. Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 22:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it is better to put the club names in their shorter format; with stub Italian football articles that I'm trying to fix up and expand, sometimes I've just copied the full club name from the club's wiki page and added a link around that text for my own convenience when I was trying to fix the page up quickly, and then I would refer to the club in its colloquial form later; I did this as I was ususally in a rush trying to get through a few articles, that's all I meant, but I should probably not use the full name of teams in future and do as you suggested instead. In some articles, I just didn't have the time to go through and fix all of the links (like in Baresi's), or I forgot, but I plan to do that eventually. Also, a lot of Serie A players from the 90s and 80s have their club listed by its full name on their page, so sometimes I left it as I wasn't sure what was the correct format. And I agree that on the Cáceres article that the first Juve loan could be a sub-section, un-like the other loans; I wasn't going against what you were saying, by the way, in case it came across that way, I was just trying to be impartial by also referring to why some users might disagree with doing that, although personally I would have made that section a sub-section under the Barcelona section, even though right now I think it also looks good as it is, as there are clear headings, so I don't mind leaving it as it is as a compromise either. And yes, I also usually find that the more sections there are, the clearer it is, even though it might not always look as good (although that isn't an issue with the Cáceres article), like in the Matri article, which is a bit cluttered; that one could possibly use some sub-sections under the Milan section for the various loans. Have a good weekend! Best regards, Messirulez (talk) 16:58, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: No, no, I knew you weren't going against what I was saying. :) No worries. I was just further explaining the reasoning behind what I did at Caceres's page. As was I not going against what you were bringing up about possibly having three Juve sub sections for him. I too believe the more sections the better as it becomes easier to locate info. However, in the case of Caceres, he doesn't have a substantial amount of info if we were to create a middle heading for his second loan at Juve. (I know we are both on the same page). Good we could reach some sort of agreement.

• Message in Italy section in case you don't see it. (I don't know if pinging you twice would translate into two separate pings on your end) Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:34, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

But wait, shouldn't the Sevilla section then not have loan as he was eventually sold to Sevilla? Like with the second Juventus paragraph? This is where things get confusing...haha. :) Messirulez (talk) 18:55, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: You're right. Maybe something should be written about his permanent deal after his loan in that same section. In the second Juve paragraph, it says he was loaned, and then has a sentence about his per meant deal right after. Maybe the same should be done with the Sevilla section for clarity. (Well actually it states his loan to Juve at the end of the Sevilla section, but still all the info is there, the loan and the permanent, unlike Sevilla, it only states the loan.) Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry...it gets so annoying to sort out things like that, hahaha why couldn't football transfers/loans be more suitable for wikipedia pages!?!? :P There is actually a short sentence in the Sevilla paragraph: "On 31 May 2011, Sevilla agreed a €3 million deal plus €1.5 million in variables with Barcelona for the permanent move of Cáceres to the Ramón Sánchez Pizjuán Stadium." but it's only a very brief mention; does that suffice? Forza Juve for tonight! :) Best, Messirulez (talk) 19:17, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

@Messirulez: Yes, why can't it be more simple!! haha. Ah, whoops, how did I miss that?? Yes, this does suffice, it is good enough. It wouldn't suffice, though, to add a whole new heading and splitting it into two Sevilla headings since that would literally be the only sentence! I know you know that. The article is in good standing now, I think, how it is! Yes forza Juve, lets hope it's an exciting match!! Regards, Vaselineeeeeeee (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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