Talk:Starship (band)

Splitting Jefferson Starship / Starship: Why?

What's the reason for splitting these two articles? The band didn't break up and re-form. The band just continued without David Freiberg and Paul Kantner and recorded Knee Deep in the Hoopla with Peter Wolf who had done work on Nuclear Furniture. They continued with the same staff and same manager, and still released on Grunt Records until Grace Slick left the band. JoeD80 (talk) 22:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Charts

"We Built This City" was not on the Adult Contemporary chart as the main article implies -- It was #37 on the Club Music charts. JoeD80 (talk) 21:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Joel Whitburn's Top Adult Contemporary 1961-2001 (ISBN:0-89820-149-7), page 126, attests to the fact that "We Built This City" debuted on the Billboard Hot Adult Contemporary chart on 30 November 1985, stayed on the chart for two weeks, and did indeed peak at #37 .Dcrumbaker (talk) 01:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

References

Merge proposal

It has been proposed that this article and Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation be merged into Jefferson Starship. Please discuss at Talk:Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 17:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Thomas' Use Of Name

Since Bill Thompson and Grace Slick sued Paul Kantner in 2008 for his use of the Jefferson Starship name and the settlement is that Kantner's group can record and tour as Jefferson Starship while paying Thompson and Slick a small royalty, is there any chance that Thompson and Slick could sue Mickey Thomas for calling his current touring outfit "Starship Starring Mickey Thomas"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.120.63 (talk) 22:24, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

External links modified

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Infobox Guidelines Location

It has been requested in the edit history that a link be provided to the page with Wikipedia's musical artist infobox guidelines. The guidelines can be found here - Template:Infobox musical artist. Kind regards, 5.80.225.78 (talk) 21:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

I did not realize that the infobox guidelines said that it should be "listed in order of joining" (and I can't say that I really agree), but all you had to do was add "Template:Infobox musical artist" to the editing note (in the first place). On a side issue, there doesn't need to be a list of past members in the infobox when the list is that long and there's a list for it in the article, and especially shouldn't be in infobox when the article list is not sourced. —Musdan77 (talk) 18:46, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Personnel - Members' section

I have recently made efforts to improve the personnel section and many of these have been reverted by other users'. Most of these are insignificant as they were purely aesthetic details but the 'members' section which I have implemented needs to be discussed before removal. A comprehensive list of musicians and their instrumentation is commonplace on Wikipedia band pages and is the place from which other forms of personnel listing, such as the line-up table and the timeline; both of which are features of this page, spring from. There is nothing wrong with it not being there but it's a big enough topic to warrant a discussion and a decision made via consensus. Please discuss details here. Kind regards, 5.80.225.78 (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

On an additional note; whilst I appreciate the fact that the personnel section is open to speculation due to lack of evidence (and I've tried to source more and failed so I too have my doubts); it isn't the norm for references to be placed in the personnel section of a band page, but, rather, in the main part of the article where the band's history is explained. For that reason wouldn't the citation note be positioned better at the top of the article? Kind regards, 5.80.225.78 (talk) 21:58, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

First, please read WP:BRD. When an editor reverts your edit, don't re-add it without discussing first. Right now, there are 3 lists in the Personnel section. The info in lists 1 & 3 can be found in the line-up table (2). I can understand also having the timeline (3) because it gives a different view, but the first one is just redundant and unnecessary. But, more importantly, it (and all of the section) is unsourced. If the info is sourced in the main body, fine, but it really should be sourced in that section as well, and anything that isn't sourced at all should be removed -- because it would follow the same rules as WP:BLP. —Musdan77 (talk) 18:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Starship I'm accused of vandalism?

Hello Misterprither

You stated you restored the article due to "vandalism"? Can you provide evidence that it was vandalized? Everything I added was current, accurate and cited. Can you explain why it was changed? Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 19:55, 7 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

I am curious too, about the removal of the album cover, Knee Deep in the Hoopla, as it is used on a Wiki page called Knee Deep in the Hoopla. Doesn't that make it common to Wiki so that I can re-use it? It is really the only image that I can find that portrays the true Starship band. All other images of the group are licensed and unusable on Wiki according to Getty images that doesn't provide images for Wiki, due to Wiki's copyright rules. Please advise. The current photo is not an image of the original Starship because it includes Mickey Thomas. Regards, Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 21:42, 7 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Starship and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas

Hoping I can get some feedback on the following:

I'm wondering if it might make more sense to have separate pages for "Starship" and "Starship with Mickey Thomas"? They were two entirely different bands with different personnel. Does that make any sense? Most bands do go through many different personnel, but there were only 3 core members of "Starship" when they were performing, Brett Bloomfield, Mark Morgan, and Kenny Stavropoulus. i'm considering those edits to what stands now, as well, as removing the last paragraph which is really legally about a different band, "Starship featuring Mickey Thomas". Also, if the Mickey Thomas version of the band is deleted, The entry of Loveless Fascination should be deleted from the discography. The Mickey Thomas version of the band is not legally "Starship" it is simply short-hand for "Starship with Mickey Thomas". What say you? How difficult would making two different pages be? Looking forward to your reply. Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:18, 10 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

I believe separating "Starship" from "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" is unnecessary and confusing. I also think deleting the information about the band from 1992 forward is leaving this article short of all the information about this band. They are not two different bands with entirely different personnel, there is more overlap. Mickey Thomas is obviously in both incarnations of the band. Bassist Brett Bloomfield was in the group from 1988 through the end of the Love Among the Cannibals tour in 1990, and then again from 1993 - 1998 per this article. Melissa Kary and Christina Marie Saxton were touring vocalists from 1988 - 1990. Melissa Kary was also a full member of the band from 1992 - 2006 and Christina Marie Saxton was there from 1996 - 2006. The "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" band plays from the identical song catalogue of the earlier incarnation of the group, mostly the 1979-1991 era, absent only the new stuff they did on the Loveless Fascination album.

As to whether it is legally a different band, we really do not know that fact either and should not assume it. It has been established from the Tamarkin book "Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane" regarding the 1985 Paul Kantner lawsuit that the band was owned 49% by Bill Thompson and 51% by Grace Slick. Per an interview in 2011 with Gary James of Classic Bands (http://www.classicbands.com/MickeyThomasInterview.html), Mickey states "I've been legally able to use the name Starship for the last 20 years." We do not know if he bought the rights, made an agreement with the owners of the name, or just took it upon himself to do it without authorization, but no one has tried to stop him from doing this in over 25 years. The late Bill Thompson appeared on the "Starship - Greatest and Latest" DVD for part of the interview segment, so clearly he was aware of what Thomas has been doing since he fired the band in 1991 and is not opposing it. What the really situation is, none of us really know, but this article should not assume information we really do not have.

I am in favor of leaving the Starship page intact and not splitting the article. I am also going to agree with Misterpither and reverting some of the recent edits here as they are not in keeping with the NPOV requirements. Starship is still an active band according to some sources, like Mickey Thomas. Referring to them in the past tense and deleting the Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas information is taking sides in this discussion. 209.212.21.193 (talk) 19:59, 15 July 2017 (UTC) AbleGus

I would like to argue the points with you, if I may. Before Starship broke up in 1991, it had it's own songwriters and performers. Those were Grace Slick, Mickey Thomas, Craig Chaquico, Pete Sears, Donny Baldwin and David Freiburg or the other lineup of Slick, Thomas, Chaquico and Donny Baldwin. These performers, wrote/recorded, and performed in the videos that made them famous such as "Sara", "We Built this City", "Nothing's Gonna Stop us Now", "Tomorrow Doesn't Matter Tonight" and others. At the very end of the Starship era, Brett Bloomfield and Mark Morgan were included, but Chaquico was still there, playing lead guitar and writing. Kary and Saxton were side members during this original era, They covered Slick's vocals as most were duets, but never were official band members.

To compare to Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, that band had only one official member, singer Thomas, and none of the official Starship band members played in that band.The Mickey Thomas band has not written or recorded a single hit in its duration. They play the identical song/hit list mostly from 1979-1991 era which were written by the original Starship lineup. Starship featuring Mickey Thomas is essentially a cover band of Starship and should be featured separately. Jefferson Starship and Starship have separate pages on Wiki because they were two distinctly different bands, same band members minus Kantner. Those bands are more similar than Starship and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas because, at least, they had most of the same members. On Thomas' Facebook page he refers to his band as "One of the most iconic rock bands of the '80's recording some of the decade's biggest anthems, "We Built this City", "Nothing's Going to Stop us Now" and "Sara". This is a lie because the Starship Band featuring Mickey Thomas never performed or recorded these songs, only Mickey Thomas. Legal or ethical aside, Wikipedia should be responsible for putting the truth out, not spin for Mickey Thomas or anyone else.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 20:20, 16 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Cheryl, I am again reverting your edit here as you removed the part in the info box about the alias being Starship featuring Mickey Thomas from 1992–present. There has been no consensus to separate the pages, so it should be maintained as part of the article.

As for your argument of points, again it is not accurate to state that none of the official Starship members played in the band after 1992. Brett Bloomfield was in the band from 1988 - 1990. He played in Starship featuring Mickey Thomas from 1993 - 1998. Melissa Kary and Christina Marie Sexton were touring musicians from 1988 - 1990, and were later members of Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. While not full members of the group prior to 1992, they did have a history of performing with the group at that time. It is not clear the band officially broke up in 1991. Per the Tamarkin book "Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane" (page 351), Bill Thompson states "I essentially fired the band."

Your assessment that Starship featuring Mickey Thomas is "essentially a cover band" is your opinion. Wikipedia articles are not opinion articles or reviews. Your statement that "The Mickey Thomas band has not written or recorded a single hit in its duration" is not in and of itself a reason to separate the articles. The group did release a studio album in 2013, so they have produced their own music. Why is assessing whether or not they still generate "hits" a criteria for splitting the article?

Please see the earlier discussions as to why there are separate articles for Jefferson Starship and Starship, or why they are not still subsections of the Jefferson Airplane article. Short answer is to reduce confusion with multiple active bands still performing and because one article alone became unwieldy. Splitting Starship featuring Mickey Thomas and Starship into two articles will not reduce confusion. There are not multiple acts currently performing Starship songs. Whatever Thomas posts on his Facebook page has no bearing on the article. Facebook pages are not Wikipedia articles, and a person putting a spin on things on their website or Facebook page is not the concern of this article.

71.2.247.102 (talk) 04:27, 17 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Thank you for your input. I would like to also add, the band was finished after the altercation between Baldwin and Thomas and Thompson ended the band. The band was dark for two years before Mickey Thomas decided to form Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. HIs band consisted of him and a variety of musicians that came and went none of who recorded or wrote the original hit songs that they were performing. These are stated facts. What do you need for proof? I think it's fair that this be represented in this article because it is fact-based. Bill Thompson is also deceased. I would like to put back the alias in the info box so that people know that these are clearly two different bands. People have a right to know that they are clearly a "tribute" band for Starship. I believe that not separating them into two clearly distinct bands is misleading the public and providing inaccurate information. I await your response eagerly.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:27, 17 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Cheryl, your reply as requested. First, I did restore the alias to the info box. You were the one who removed it. In response to the band being "finished after the altercation between Baldwin and Thomas," there is information that contradicts that statement. After Thomas recovered, the Love Among The Cannibals Tour resumed along with replacement drummer Kenny Stavropoulus. They could not have been "finished" if they were physically out there performing on tour in 1990 after the incident. The band was also not "dark for 2 years" since the single "Good Heart" from the Starship Greatest Hits (Ten Years and Change 1979-1991) album was recorded in 1991 per the production notes.

Your assertion that Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas "consisted of him and a variety of musicians that came and went none of who recorded or wrote the original hit songs that they were performing," also overlooks information I have already posted here. Again, Brett Bloomfield was in the band from 1988 - 1990. He played in Starship featuring Mickey Thomas from 1993 - 1998. Clearly, Mickey Thomas himself was in the band in both periods. Thomas recorded those songs and also had some writing credits, so you cannot say none of the performers did. You asked what more proof I need. I say you have not provided me any proof or refuted any of my points to warrant the changes you are suggesting.

Your assessment that this is "clearly a tribute band for Starship" is an opinion, not a fact. A tribute band does not generally contain any members of the band they are playing tribute to.

I have not seen anything to make me believe the article as it stands now is "misleading the public and providing inaccurate information." As it stands now, the article chronicles all the changes and events that have occurred since the 1985 name change. Nothing is being omitted and I do not see any inaccuracies. If we followed your proposal to split, the exact same information in the entry now would just be in spread out in two articles instead of in one. There would be no significant changes to the content overall. Bottom line, I still disagree that the article should be split. I just do not believe there is sufficient difference between the two to warrant the separation. Thanks for your reply to me on this matter. 71.2.247.102 (talk) 04:29, 18 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Thank you AbleGus Hi again, Here is the information I have regarding the Starship vs Starship featuring Mickey Thomas.The tour of the Cannibals resumed after Mickey Thomas recovered from his injuries in 1991.At that time, Craig Chaquico, and the current and final bass player and drummer quit, leaving just Mickey Thomas. He hired studio musicians who were not a part of the band to record "Good Heart" and added that to the Greatest Hits Album. The single with just Mickey Thomas and the studio musicians did not do well. The record company then dropped what was left of "the band" from their label and that ended the band, according to manager, Bill Thompson who made the announcement. Mickey went onto solo projects that "didn't take off", and two years went by until he decided to form Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. A new band, new musicians that he put together and changed quite a bit over the years (Brett included, but not now). Different band, different name entirely. Please let me know if I can be any clearer on the fact that these are entirely different bands. The alias reference is inaccurate and misleading. It is a completely different band. Starship 1985-1991 and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, starting in 1993 are two entirely different bands. An alias is another name for the same entity, these are not the same entity. The Starship band of the '80's, that the public knows by their #1 Starship hits is not the same band as the Starship featuring Mickey Thomas solo band, and so the alias listed confuses people. If we can't agree to give the bans separate pages, can we at least agree to clarify the current page? Separate the two by stating years, personnel, hits, etc.? The first band Starship, is the one that did, in fact, record and perform the original hits that people hear on the radio, in the MTV video classics, and on films such as Mannequin. The other Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, is a band that performs those past hits at present, and put out an album in 2013 that is unrelated to the previous Starship. I propose to set up the page in two parts that defines the two periods. I think the info box should contain the image of the original Starship and lineup. Then a section on Starship featuring Mickey Thomas with the photo of his band and current lineup. It would be proper to delete the alias from the info box and delineate the separate lineups somehow. I hope that there is some way to compromise on the situation. RegardsCheryl Fullerton (talk) 19:44, 18 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl. Thanks for your feedback regarding this article. In regards to your timeline beginning with the Love Among the Cannibals tour, we do have different information. You have not provided any sources on your information, I have the following with sources on some points of contention. The Love Among the Cannibals tour resumed after Mickey Thomas recovered with new drummer Kenny Stavropoulos in 1990, not 1991. That tour ended in 1990, the last date there is record of a show is in July 1990. At some point in 1990, maybe after the tour ended, Starship was in studio and recorded “Don't Lose Any Sleep” with only Craig Chaquico and Mickey Thomas. Per the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane” (page 350), Craig Chaquico quit the group in 1990, not in 1991 but certainly after the Love Among the Cannibals tour ended. There is no information I've seen on whether the bassist Brett Bloomfield and drummer Kenny Stavropoulos quit at that time or were fired. Perhaps if you have a source for this we can add it into the article. Also there is no information about whether Mark Morgan quit or was fired, or exact the timeframe when that happened. It is also unclear if Craig Chaquico was also involved in the recording of the song “Keys to the City” from 1990 that appeared on the 2012 release Playlist: The Very Best of Starship. Perhaps if you have a source that can confirm that, we can also add that to the article.

Continuing the chronology, I must disagree that the “band was dark for two years.” After Craig Chaquico left, Mickey Thomas apparently continued “with a Starship that included Peter Wolf,” again per Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane” on page 351. In 1991, Starship recorded “Good Heart” with the listed performers being Mickey Thomas, Peter Wolf, Martin Page, and Peter Maunu. The song is credited solely to Starship. Regardless of who actually played on the recording besides Mickey Thomas and whether they were full members of the band or not; all the evidence shows it to be a song released by the band Starship. Thomas was obviously still a member of Starship at that time. No distinction was made whatsoever of the band name which made that recording versus anything else the band had done prior to it, so we should not do it either.  The Starship Greatest Hits: Ten Years and Change album even gives the years it covers as 1979-1991, so it follows that we consider the band active into 1991.  How the song charted does not impact this discussion. At some point in 1991 after the release of “Good Heart” in April 1991 and the May 1991 release of the greatest hits album, the band was “essentially fired” by Bill Thompson and dropped from RCA’s active roster (reference the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” Page 351). 

You stated that the band ended when it was dropped and Bill Thompson said as much. A band does not necessarily end if they get dumped by a label, providing that a person or persons associated with the band start it up again. The band Chicago was dropped by Columbia Records in 1981, but they did not end at that time. The group got new a new label, some lineup changes happened, and they continued on as a group. Being inactive for a time period also does not necessarily mean a band does not exist anymore and any new configurations should be considered a new band.  Journey was inactive from 1987-1995, but it resumed and was still considered Journey, even up to the present day despite significant lineup changes. Same goes for Yes being inactive from 1981 until 1983 and again from 2004 through 2008. My point is that it's only over until someone starts it up again, then it's not over.

As to your statement that (Mickey) “Thomas went on to solo projects that didn't take off, and two years went by until he decided to form Starship featuring Mickey Thomas” is also contradicted by sourced information. I don't know anything about what Mickey Thomas did in terms of those solo projects or if that even occurred, but it was “early 1992” and not 1993 when the new version of Starship launched per the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” (page 351). Other websites including the one linked on the page list members back to 1992, so that's the date the article should go by.  If you have sources for the 1993 date, please provide them. So, instead of 2 years we have the band inactive somewhere in the range of roughly 6 to 12 months. True, they were not performing shows from roughly the middle of 1990 until early 1992, but live performances are not the only criteria for a band still being considered active.

Returning to the band from 1992 forward, we covered that Brett Bloomfield was also a full member in both periods in the earlier discussion. Also Melissa Kary and Christina Marie Saxton were touring personnel from 1989 - 1990 and full members at times during the period from 1992 to present. It is not unprecedented for touring personnel to be promoted to full band members. It happened to Brett Bloomfield and Mark Morgan, who were touring personnel in 1987 - 1988 during the No Protection Tour and then became full members of the group from the Love Among the Cannibals recording sessions forward. Similar situation with Joey Covington and  Papa John Creach with Jefferson Airplane. They both performed live with the group on tour before becoming full members of the band. Regardless of full membership status, their relationship to the band both before and after 1992 is further evidence of some personnel continuity with individuals other than Mickey Thomas.

As to your assertion this is an entirely different band, I disagree based on the fact Thomas was in both along with the other associated individuals mentioned prior. Sure, only Mickey Thomas is there now who was involved prior to 1992, but band lineups can evolve and change over many years without it being considered a completely different band. The band Foreigner has a current lineup consisting of original member Mick Jones and no other members who were in the band during the 1970’s and 1980’s, the period of their most commercial success.  The Guess Who name is owned by Jim Kale and Garry Peterson. The band performs now without Randy Bachman and Burton Cummings, undoubtedly the most famous and accomplished musicians associated with that group.  Both Wikipedia articles do not segregate the present group from the past, they simply present the band history from its origins until now without a value judgement of the band performers now versus then. That type of analysis is for fan sites, reviews, artist home pages, and interview questions from authors or journalists with current and former members. Wikipedia articles are supposed to be encylopedia articles and maintain a NPOV. Inserting those ideas into an article undermines that concept. This article should stick to that premise.

You have stated your assertion that you consider Starship and Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas to be different bands because they have different names. They really do not have completely different names though. It is called Starship in both eras. Mickey Thomas states he adds the modifier “Featuring Mickey Thomas” now to differentiate this band from the group concurrently touring under the name Jefferson Starship associated with the late Paul Kantner. This information comes again from the interview in 2011 with Gary James of Classic Bands (http://www.classicbands.com/MickeyThomasInterview.html). The “featuring Mickey Thomas” line in and of itself does not indicate a different group now since he was there the whole time for each of the band's two eras.

As for using the alias in the article, I think it actually helps distinguish the two eras of the band for readers.  I feel we should keep the  article as is and include the Starship featuring Mickey Thomas information. If we do that, having the alias in there and that applies to 1992 - present helps illustrate the difference between the eras. Removing it while keeping the article intact will actually downplay the changes between eras, which I imagine you would not want to do. I don't agree we can say it is two entire different entities based on the common presence of Mickey Thomas in both eras. In truth, there's really not that much difference between what was still Starship in 1991 circa the “Good Heart” recording with Mickey Thomas and no other performers who had previously been with the group (although Peter Wolf did appear as a guest musician for some shows on the Nuclear Furniture tour) and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas in 1992 with no other performers who had previously been with the group (although Melissa Kary was a touring musician). Everyone who was a member prior to 1990 but Mickey Thomas quit the band or got fired by 1990. It eventually became all about Mickey Thomas, and at some point after it did he went and got a mostly new supporting cast to continue it.

As to the way the article is now misleading the public because it doesn't differentiate between eras. I also disagree on that point. The article provides a chronological history of the group.  It lists the events, personnel changes, information each album released, songs released as singles with chart position, and relevant quotes from key individuals. The large majority of the article as written involves the more commercially successful period prior to 1992, which is as you would expect. It is most of the story. Breaking it down, the split is six paragraphs to one (two if you include the last part which is all obituaries). Someone reading whole article and band lineup lists can see how things unfolded and will know that only one member from the Starship of the 1980’s is still involved.  There is nothing in here to make someone believe the band currently performing in 2017 is comprised of all the same people as the Starship from 1987.

At this point, I don't think there is any further explanation you could provide to convince me that these are clearly two completely separate entities.  You are certainly more than welcome to try.  Feel free to respond, refute my points, and add any additional information to this subject that you think is pertinent, but I think we have reached an impasse with our perspectives on this matter.

As to a compromise, if you want to put a picture of the group from the 1980’s in the info box, preferably the full group that meets the criteria for inclusion, I agree that is a good idea. The 2010 group photo can then go by those last 2 paragraphs about Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. A header saying Starship featuring Mickey Thomas creating  a new section over those last 2 paragraphs is fine as well.  I don't agree with having two separate info boxes though as that seems like splitting the article without a new page. I also do not agree with removing the current lineup, alias name, and the years active listing 1992 - present along with 1984 - 1991 from the info box. Having the current lineup appear there along with a list of former members is fairly standard for most bands Wikipedia pages. The current members of Starship featuring Mickey Thomas are the ones now performing the music of the group. It should be acknowledged that way in the article or it looks like the article is deeming them unworthy, not in keeping with the NPOV guidelines. Thanks for reading. AbleGus (talk) 03:04, 24 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Cheryl, I am reverting your most recent edits to the Starship page. The new sentence about the March 1985 agreement pertaining to the retiring of the name “Jefferson” with “Starship” is not relevant to this article about Starship. It is redundant as the prior sentence already made it clear they had to change the name anyway.  Additionally, it is not correct to assume the assertions from the underlying lawsuit about that agreement are an established fact when the legal matter has yet to be decided in court. The part about the band being called Starship Jefferson during the lawsuit was deleted without explanation.

You also changed the article to refer to the band in the past tense again which was reverted previously by both the user Misterpither and myself. This was already discussed on the talk page.  In the section about Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, you added that the band does not have the right to use the name Starship. Per my earlier entry on the talk page we do not know this to be a fact about the band not being authorized to use the name Starship, so it should not be included. Thanks again for all your correspondence on this subject.  Regards, AbleGus (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hi again. I think the billboard article is just as reliable a source as the Tamarkin book, so I'm puzzled that you think your information is better or more correct. I don't want to keep going back and forth on edits, though, and I'm happy you are willing to talk to me about changing the article. Here is a link to that article if you haven't read it lately. http://www.billboard.com/artist/280376/starship/biography My wish is only to clarify the history of the band, and to educate the public to what they will get if they buy tickets to one of the Jefferson Starship featuring Mickey Thomas concerts.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Sorry, on the slip of saying "Jefferson"Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. I meant Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, of course. Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

This is a quote from the article for which I sent the link above. I think this makes it clear that there are two separate bands: "With that, Bill Thompson declared Starship to be inactive. In 1992, Thomas organized a band that began playing dates billed as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" or "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas." Although Thomas did not own the right to use the name "Starship," Thompson and Grace Slick, the co-owners of the name, took no action to stop him, and he continued to perform using the name. In 2003, the Brilliant label issued an album credited simply to Starship called Greatest Hits on which a Thomas-led band re-recorded Starship's biggest hits and some songs from Thomas' tenure in Jefferson Starship as well as "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," the hit Thomas sang with the Elvin Bishop Group in 1976". ~ William Ruhlmann, Rovi Oops! forgot to sign!Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl, thanks for your reply regarding this matter. As to using the Jeff Tamarkin book as a source, I think it is very useful for this article. The book is a chronicle of the history of the Jefferson Airplane, it's various offshoots, and the people involved with it from the inception through the book's writing in 2003. The author has written a great deal about the Jefferson Airplane and it's associated members, including all the related groups that descend from it, for over 25 years. This includes the liner notes to the 1992 box set Jefferson Airplane Loves You and many of the Jefferson Airplane, Hot Tuna, and Jefferson Starship album re-issues. He has had access to all of the key players, so I would count him as a significant subject matter expert.

In regards to the Billboard link to the Starship Band profile you provided, I was never critical of this source. I was not aware of the identity of the source you were using. I was only comparing the information you had posted to available information from the sources I listed. The Billboard article actually agrees with the information I had previously posted here in terms of the timeline. This includes the September 1989 fight between Mickey Thomas and Donny Baldwin (which caused a delay of the Love Among the Cannibals tour), Craig Chaquico leaving the group in 1990, the release of "Good Heart" by Starship in Spring 1991, and that Starship featuring Mickey Thomas has been playing since 1992. Reviewing the section of that profile you have provided that starts with "With that, Bill Thompson declared Starship to be inactive," I do not agree with your assessment that it "makes it clear that there are two separate bands." I mentioned before that a band can go inactive and resume later if one or more of the performers starts it up again. Mickey Thomas did that. He was associated with the band through it being dropped by RCA in 1991. After roughly six to twelve months, he then went and got new members (although some people previously associated with the band prior to 1992 were involved with Starship featuring Mickey Thomas for a time) and went on the road using the name Starship while adding the "featuring Mickey Thomas" part.

The Billboard article states "Thomas did not own the right to use the name." As I posted earlier, the rights to the name involving Mickey Thomas are unclear. It is one of three options, he either bought the rights to the name from owners Bill Thompson and/or Grace Slick (which I suspect is unlikely), he made an agreement or paid a fee to the owners that allows him to use the name, or he is doing it without authorization but the owners have taken no action to stop him. Regardless of what exactly the circumstances are, the simple fact is that Mickey Thomas has been using the name for over 25 years now without a legal incident. Mickey Thomas and company have not been stopped by the owners of the name. Since it is very reasonable to believe they know about it, then regardless of which of the three scenarios is true, they are allowing it to be done by Mickey Thomas. I do not think this should be added to the Wikipedia article. There are sources that disagree about Thomas having the right to use the name, but in the end it does not really matter since the result is the same, Thomas is using the name.

The information about the 2003 album of re-recordings does not tell all the information. It was originally recorded along with a video in 2002. This includes interviews with Mickey Thomas and Bill Thompson. The CD/DVD combo on the front says Starship, but the rear cover has a picture of the as then current band members and has the label "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" under the image. That is also the case with the CD issued by Brilliant with Starship on the front cover and a note that this is a new recording, while the rear cover has a picture of the as then current band members and has the label "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" under the image. The problem was that it seems this recording was released overseas through a variety of different labels. Some of the companies that released it were not very scrupulous in properly advising who was involved in the effort, or did not even include all fourteen of the songs included. I am not sure the blame lies with the artists for that though. We could add information on this re-recording album to the Wikipedia article. I do not think we need to go into the labeling part as it was originally released with information on who was involved, it is just that it was not in some of the subsequent versions.

I also agree about not wanting to go back and forth. I think we view this differently and that is that. I am more than happy to review any responses you might have or any additional information. As for the history of the band in the article, I think it covers the personnel changes and anyone viewing the line-ups can see that only Mickey Thomas is still involved in this and not anyone else who was in the band prior to 1992. The purpose of Wikipedia does not necessarily concern informing concertgoers of who is still in a band, but I think they could easily figure that out from the article as it currently reads. Thanks again for your reply. AbleGus (talk) 03:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Greetings, again! Here are my thoughts and arguments beyond that I am disappointed that the page has reverted back to its condition prior to any of the improvements and clarifications that I have made to the page. Not only are the photos of the 1980’s Starship removed, which photographers gave permission to Wikipedia to add, but the Billboard magazine quotes and citations, that were appropriate to the page, were removed when this article reverted back to its original state, as well as the distinctive subtitle indicating the difference between the 1985 – 1991 Starship and the 1992 – Present Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. (I know you didn't have a problem with using the sub-head.) This subtitle made it clear to readers that in 1991, the band’s manager, Bill Thompson, “declared Starship to be inactive.” http://www.billboard.com/artist/280376/starship/biography This citation is credible and should be included in the article. In addition, the quote from this same article states, “In 1992, Thomas organized a band that began playing dates billed as ‘Mickey Thomas' Starship’ or ‘Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas.’ Although Thomas did not own the right to use the name ‘Starship,’ Thompson and Grace Slick, the co-owners of the name, took no action to stop him, and he continued to perform using the name,” This makes it clear that Mickey Thomas formed a new band; that Starship featuring Mickey Thomas was not the same band as Starship, or this article would not refer to organizing a band. If that is not sufficient in your mind to include in this Wikipedia article, nor to distinguish between the 1985 – 1991 Starship band and the 1992 – present Mickey Thomas band, let me provide another source for our discussion: http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/arts/2015/12/22/mickey-thomas-finds-his-way-back-home-desert/77718560/ In this article, the writer, Bruce Fessier, states that “Slick left in 1988 and actually rejoined Kantner in Jefferson Starship despite being involved in a legal conflict with him. Then bass player Brett Bloomfield and guitarist Craig Chaquico decided they wanted to go in a heavier rock direction – which was surprising since Chaquico then became one of the pioneering smooth jazz guitarists. When keyboard player Mark Morgan left the band to become a Los Angeles sessions musician, Thomas was forced into a solo career.” As I have stated in my discussion here, Mickey Thomas went on to solo projects after Starship ended, and this writer backs that up, so this article can be cited in this Wikipedia article to verify the claim that there was an end to the band and a period of time when not even Thomas was using Starship. All had moved on, including the manager and the record company and all of the band members. If that isn’t enough evidence, let’s take Mickey Thomas’s own quote from this article, “’So I put together a greatest hits album with a couple new tracks, and went off and pursued some solo things for a couple of years. Then, around 1992, ’93, when I realized people still wanted to hear a lot of Starship, I decided to reform the band. That’s when Starship featuring Mickey Thomas started.” Thomas went on to pursue solo projects for a couple of years. And, as backed up by the this article and the Billboard article, he started (note my emphasis on the word “started”) first “Mickey Thomas’ Starship” and then “Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas.” Both were new band names, and a new band that he “started” and/or “organized” as per the two articles included here. Did he use some of the same musicians that were in Starship at the end? Yes, he did. Afterall, they knew the material. This does not mean it was a continuation of “Starship.” Both of these articles, and Mickey’s own words, dispute this assumption.

As for the Info Box on this page, I do agree that a photo of the original band, in 1985, is appropriate in that space. I have supplied the photo and have gotten the photographer’s permission to post it on Wikipedia (and have also gotten photographer’s permissions to include other photos of the Starship band). My photos have since been automatically removed and I am challenging that due to permissions having been submitted appropriately. I believe strongly that there needs to be better clarity in the Info Box with regards to band members names. The original members, Grace Slick, Craig Chaquico, Mickey Thomas, Pete Sears, David Freiberg and Donny Baldwin should be set apart from the variety of names that came about in Mickey’s band. Or, at the least separated in some way as to distinguish between 1985 – 1991 and 1992 – present. I am open to suggestions if this page is not going to be a separate page from a Starship featuring Mickey Thomas page (which I still believe it should be).

I believe we are in agreement that there should be a distinct subtitle on the page (if, again, it is not going to be separated into two different articles.) At this juncture, I will restore the sub-head "Starship featuring Mickey Thomas" and to restore the photo of the original members of Starship in the info box. I would like also to have your agreement to clarify the members as I stated above, to separate by years and members of Starship and members of Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 17:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Wikis I added the photo of Grace Sick and Mickey Thomas onstage that I have recently garnered permission from the photographer to use. It is pending OTRS. Also, I plan to insert another photo of that era that I also have been given permission to use. I think they add a nice bit of history and balance the page nicely. Thank you!Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 23:13, 29 July 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl. Thanks for your response to this discussion. Regarding the reverted article removing the photos, I agree that we should use the 1980's era photo in the info box. I also am in favor of adding the sub-heading Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. When I reverted the article to discuss the changes, I never went back to add the changes I agreed with. I apologize for the oversight.

With regards to the Billboard article, I do not dispute the part about Starship being inactive, I just do not agree with your position that it being inactive means it cannot be restarted. I think the way the Wikipedia article is now "For a brief period it was thought that Thomas would continue forward as Starship, but manager Bill Thompson then decided it was over and told RCA that the band was done making records," works well to describe this. It also corresponds to information I posted here previously that the band was “essentially fired” by Bill Thompson and dropped from RCA’s active roster (reference the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” Page 351). I also do not agree with the assertion that saying "Mickey Thomas organized a band that began playing dates billed as 'Mickey Thomas's Starship' means we should consider it a new band. Yes, he went and and got new members to the band, but he was still in it as before. Just saying he organized it does not necessarily mean it is a new entity and not a revival of the band. Additionally, they are still using the name Starship, even if they are adding the "featuring Mickey Thomas" to distinguish it from the other active group touring as Jefferson Starship. As discussed prior, there were other individuals (Brett Bloomfield, Melissa Kary, Christina Marie Saxton) involved with the band in both eras, so it was not all new personnel. My main concern about the Billboard article, and why I am against using it as a source, is the following statement: "Although Thomas did not own the right to use the name "Starship," Thompson and Grace Slick, the co-owners of the name, took no action to stop him, and he continued to perform using the name." As I previously posted here, the right of Mickey Thomas to use the name Starship is unclear. We have sourced statements from Mickey Thomas (http://www.classicbands.com/MickeyThomasInterview.html) claiming he is authorized to use it. Other sources such as the Billboard article dispute this point, but the simple fact is Thomas is using the name. Regardless of the circumstances, the fact the owners of the name have not tried to stop him means that they are allowing him to do it, authorized or not. I do not think we should add that statement from Billboard about not having the right to use the name, then add the other source saying he can do it, when we do not have really have the answer and the bottom line is he is doing it anyway. That's confusing and unnecessary. Finally, I do not think the Billboard article really adds anything we do not already have here.

Regarding the second article you supplied (http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/arts/2015/12/22/mickey-thomas-finds-his-way-back-home-desert/77718560/), again I think it is a case where we view the same thing and interpret it differently. The part about "Slick left in 1988 and actually rejoined Kantner in Jefferson Starship" is an error. She rejoined Kantner in the Jefferson Airplane reunion effort. I think the part about "bass player Brett Bloomfield and guitarist Craig Chaquico decided they wanted to go in a heavier rock direction" refers to the formation of the band Big Bad Wolf along with fellow former Starship member Kenny Stavropoulos. I think the dates are wrong though, I was under the impression that happened later than a 1990 to 1991 time period. Their album was released in 1998 in Japan. Maybe it was recorded earlier and released years later, but this is irrelevant to our discussion. About Mickey Thomas doing some solo projects, I do not dispute it happened, only that it was a few years before Starship was back. As I have previously written, there is sourced information that Starship was still active with RCA in 1991 with the recording of "Good Heart" and release of Starship Greatest Hits: Ten Years and Change. I have previously cites sources that have placed the revival of Starship to early 1992. I have another source (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-07-03/features/9202170761_1_jefferson-starship-jefferson-airplane-papa-john-creach) to confirm that time frame. The article is dated July 03, 1992. It is about the Paul Kantner led Jefferson Starship revival, but it contains the line "Thomas relaunched his career recently and is sputtering around the country with a negligible act called Mickey Thomas' Starship." Putting aside the author's opinion of the Mickey Thomas, the date of July 1992 puts this in line with the already sourced early 1992 reforming of the group and a shorter downtime than a few years when it was not around. You emphasize the sentence "That’s when Starship featuring Mickey Thomas started.” I would emphasize the line right before it, "I decided to reform the band." It is correct that's when Starship featuring Mickey Thomas started, but he uses the word reform to describe it. You do not reform a new band, you reform a band to bring back one that already existed. Again, it is not a new name, they are still using the name Starship. Per Mickey Thomas, they use the description "featuring Mickey Thomas" in billing the group to distinguish it from the group touring as Jefferson Starship (http://www.classicbands.com/MickeyThomasInterview.html). I also do not think using the word "started" or "organized" means it is a completely a separate entity. Certainly, Mickey Thomas is considering it a revival of the band and a continuation from the prior incarnation. You cannot infer that based on his words if he also uses the word reform. In the article you provided,the author uses the words "organized a new band" to describe the group, but Mickey Thomas never says it that way. In another 2013 article (http://ultimateclassicrock.com/starship-mickey-thomas-interview-2013/), Mickey Thomas goes into more detail on this. He stated "For all practical purposes, in 1991 we just put Starship to rest. I went in and recorded a couple of new tracks for the greatest hits album and then at that point in time in my mind, it was over — Starship is done. A couple of years go by and people are saying, “When are you going on the road and when are you going on tour? When’s another album? We want to hear more Starship.” So I realized, “well, maybe it’s not over?” But none of the other former members at that time were interested in reconnecting. Craig [Chaquico] by that point of time was deeply involved in his acoustic jazz albums and that part of his career. My former keyboard player was off making music for movies and so that’s when I reformed the band with all new guys. Most of them are still with me 20 years later! My drummer and keyboard player have been with me for 20 years and my bass player for 15 years, so the core of the band is the longest running lineup in the history of the band." Clearly to him, he reformed the group with new people (other than himself) and continued the band rather than starting a new group. He even refers to the current lineup as the longest running in the history of the band, which means he is including the period of 1984-1991 in that equation or else there is nothing to compare that longest running lineup to! Once again, I think we are simply resigned to seeing this differently. As always, I welcome your reply and any additional information on this matter you wish to provide.

Regarding the info box, I concur with you about putting a photo of the band from circa 1985. I would also like to keep the 2010 photo and move it to the new sub-heading section about Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. I also am in favor of adding the other photos you previously had posted, provided they are allowed by Wikipedia. As to changing the info box to set apart the original members, I am against that move. Most music bands pages on Wikipedia list the current members in the box and then have a list of former members beneath it. Please review the Journey page as it is set up the same. It is a fairly standard format. I think changing it from that format is effectively down playing the current lineup who is performing as Starship in favor of prior members or a "classic" lineup, which I think is not in keeping with maintaining a NPOV requirements for Wikipedia. I also am against changing the info box to separate lineups between Starship and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. The info box is a snapshot of band info, it might become too large and unweildy to do that there. Plus, the breakdown of the lineups by year is already done in it's own section of the article, including listing when the band is referred to Starship and when it is Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. It is redundant to do it again in the info box. To conclude, I agree with the changes you made in the last 24 hours. Thanks for reading and responding to my posts. AbleGus (talk) 09:01, 30 July 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hi Thanks for your response, AbelGus. I think we are getting closer to a compromise but I do have a few comments with respect to your most recent reply: You mentioned, “I was under the impression that happened later than a 1990 to 1991 time period. Their album was released in 1998 in Japan.” My understanding is that Big Bad Wolf was forming before the end of Starship in 1991, and when Chaquico officially left the band, he went full-time with Big Bad Wolf, recording their album.. The Japan release was well after that band had decided to call it quits and Craig had decided to move on from that band and begin his solo career.

As far as when Starship ended and Mickey decided to start his own band, you put heavier emphasis on the word, “reform” than all of the other descriptions of the situation such as “started” and that the Desert Sun article states that Thomas was “forced into a solo career,” and “went off and pursued some solo things for a couple of years.” I believe that we have both uncovered enough adequate and reliable sources to indicate that the Starship band ended, and that a couple of years later, Mickey started his own band, using the name and hiring other musicians. You believe the band didn’t stop, but was only put on pause, basically, and I disagree. It had ended. And then when Thomas’s solo projects didn’t take off, he put together another “Starship featuring Mickey Thomas” band. I’m sure you are right to assume that “Mickey Thomas is considering it a revival of the band and a continuation from the prior incarnation.” This would serve the interests in marketing his band/branding it to the original band that recorded the big hits. To me, and to certainly others, this period in 1991 means the end of one band and the beginning of another. Since we do disagree on this point, I am not sure what to do about that right now other than to be as clear about this period of time in this article as we can be, noting the distinctions between the pre-1991 Starship and the post-1992 Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. I believe you and I at least agree on this point.

Having said that, I wish to delete the following uncited sentence, “In 1992, Thomas revived Starship as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" before changing the name to Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, which has toured steadily ever since.” And instead add the following quotes and credible citations for the portion of the page titled, “Starship featuring Mickey Thomas.”

In 1992, Thomas organized a band that began playing dates billed as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" or "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas." Although Thomas did not own the right to use the name "Starship," Thompson and Grace Slick, the co-owners of the name, took no action to stop him, and he continued to perform using the name. In 2003, the Brilliant label issued an album credited simply to Starship called Greatest Hits on which a Thomas-led band re-recorded Starship's biggest hits and some songs from Thomas' tenure in Jefferson Starship as well as "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," the hit Thomas sang with the Elvin Bishop Group in 1976. http://www.billboard.com/artist/280376/starship/biography “I was kind of the last man standing,” he said. “So I put together a greatest hits album with a couple new tracks, and went off and pursued some solo things for a couple of years. Then, around 1992, ’93, when I realized people still wanted to hear a lot of Starship, I decided to reform the band. That’s when Starship featuring Mickey Thomas started.” http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/arts/2015/12/22/mickey-thomas-finds-his-way-back-home-desert/77718560/

Then, the rest of the article could continue with “In November 2010, Thomas announced on his website that a new Starship album, Loveless Fascination, would be released in the summer or fall of 2011. The album was eventually released on September 17, 2013. The band performed at the Streamy Awards on September 8, 2014.[5]

Former Starship trumpet player Max Haskett, who performed with the band from their reformation in 1992 until the following year, died in 1999 as a result of pancreatic cancer.[6][7] Lead guitarist Erik Torjesen, who performed with the band between 1996 and 2000, died of cancer, aged 34, in 2001.[8] Torjesen's replacement, Mark Abrahamian, died from a heart attack, aged 46, following a concert on September 2, 2012.[9][10] He was replaced by John Roth.” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cheryl Fullerton (talk • contribs) 00:18, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

And I would like to add sub-sections in the discography separating Starship and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas albums. Sorry forgot to sign again!Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 00:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl, thanks for your response to my last post. Regarding the band Big Bad Wolf, I was unaware of the exact time period that group was together and that the album was actually released years later in 1998. I was under the impression the album was done at the same time that the band was together and after Craig Chaquico started his solo career. Thanks for clarifying this matter for me.

With regards to your additional points, I apologize but I do not think we have a consensus here. Again, I see the word "reform" as key, where you see the term "started" as key. I do not dispute that the band was inactive for a period, but again I do not see that as a definitive end of one band before another one starts, provided that one or more members begins using the name again, which has occurred. I have also provided a timeline with information that contests the "solo things for a couple of years" quote. I do not dispute that Mickey Thomas attempted to do anything solo, only that it went on a few years. I have covered it in prior posts, but after Craig Chaquico left in 1990, Mickey Thomas apparently continued “with a Starship that included Peter Wolf,” again per Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane” on page 351. In 1991, Starship recorded “Good Heart” for the Starship Greatest Hits (Ten Years and Change 1979-1991). After the band was “essentially fired” by Bill Thompson and dropped from RCA’s active roster (reference the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” Page 351) in roughly mid-1991, it was inactive. As per the following article I posted (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-07-03/features/9202170761_1_jefferson-starship-jefferson-airplane-papa-john-creach), there is confirmation that Mickey Thomas was leading an active band being billed as Mickey Thomas's Starship starting at some point in early 1992. Again this puts the inactive time to roughly six to twelve months for the "solo things" and not a few years. I cannot speak for Mickey Thomas and the quotes he provided, but based on the additional information we have from other sources to contradict it, it may well be that he is not fully remembering the specifics of events that happened over 20 years prior to the interview. It is also possible he was working on these "solo things" after the end of the Love Among the Cannibals tour in mid-1990 and prior to the dropping of Starship in 1991 by RCA as well as after that time when the band was inactive. The band did not perform for somewhere in the range of 18 or so months between mid-1990 and early 1992, but it was still active on the RCA roster for at least half that time period. Based on evidence I have provided, that inactive time must shorter than a few years.

Again I do not agree that being inactive means the same thing as ending, and I do not see anything in these sources that indicates that Starship permanently ended in 1991. I have used the example of bands such as Journey and Yes as examples and note that if one or members starts up using the name, then the band continues. I see that as what happened here. I covered it in the prior post as well. Basically, all of the other full members of the band prior to 1990 quit or were fired. Mickey Thomas was essentially the last man standing, at least as far as we can tell as I do not know what happened to the other members besides Craig Chaquico in 1990. Mickey Thomas tried to continue with Peter Wolf in 1991, but the band was dropped by RCA. After a few months inactive, presumably doing some solo projects, Mickey Thomas decided to keep Starship going. He goes out and gets new performers (as the other individuals previously associated with the band are not interested in returning), as well as eventually adding one former member in Brett Bloomfield (and two individuals who toured with the band as back-up singers post-Grace Slick), and continues the band using the name Starship. I have stated and sourced why he claims he adds "featuring Mickey Thomas" to the title, as a point of differentiation from the band touring as Jefferson Starship since 1992, but they are undoubtedly using the name Starship. Again, Mickey Thomas is a member of both time periods, so I do not see how it can be considered a completely different band. The 1984 - 1991 Starship and 1992 - present Starship are not identical, we agree there. Most long running bands change personnel over time, and this one did so more that most. I think it is fair to say there is enough distinction between pre and post 1992 periods to consider it a different era or period of the (same) band worthy of a sub-heading in the article, but that is all. The 1992 to present timeframe is one without Starship being signed to a top record label and where they are mainly a live touring act. But the purpose of Wikipedia is to provide an enclycopedia article of the facts on the subject and not an non-NPOV assessment of whether this is really still the same band because no one other than Mickey Thomas is still involved with it in 2017.

As to your proposal, I do not agree. The line “In 1992, Thomas revived Starship as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" before changing the name to Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, which has toured steadily ever since.” is not uncited, I have provided a source (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-07-03/features/9202170761_1_jefferson-starship-jefferson-airplane-papa-john-creach) to confirm the time period, so I think it should stay. Mickey Thomas states he reformed the band ((http://ultimateclassicrock.com/starship-mickey-thomas-interview-2013/). I would consider reforming a band the same as reviving it as opposed to organizing a "new" band, and the owners of the name (the late Bill Thompson and Grace Slick) have never disputed this claim. I am opposed to adding the part about "Although Thomas did not own the right to use the name "Starship," Thompson and Grace Slick, the co-owners of the name, took no action to stop him, and he continued to perform using the name." I have covered it before and will repeat, as I have previously, "the right of Mickey Thomas to use the name Starship is unclear. We have sourced statements from Mickey Thomas (http://www.classicbands.com/MickeyThomasInterview.html) claiming he is authorized to use it." Regardless of the status, the simple fact is he is using it legally uncontested for over 25 years. I do not think we can definitively say one way or the other what the facts are about the name usage, and Wikipedia articles are not the place to provide assumptions on whether he is legally authorized to use it or not. I request that also not be included. I am not completely opposed to adding the part about the 2002 studio re-recording of Starship and Jefferson Starship songs by the then current band, but I do not think we should delve into how it was branded. I have covered the issue on this page previously about the album being released internationally with different labels, some of who did not pay enough attention to detail on who was actually performing. How about "In 2003, Starship featuring Mickey Thomas released an album containing re-recordings of some of the Starship's biggest hits, songs orignally from period of Mickey Thomas tenure in Jefferson Starship, as well as "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," the hit Thomas sang with the Elvin Bishop Group in 1976. (http://www.billboard.com/artist/280376/starship/biography)?" That is a simple statement of the facts about the album. I am opposed to the Desert Sun citation because of the issue with the few years of solo projects being in contradiction to other sources about how long the inactive period was, a I covered earlier in this post. I believe you have kept the rest of the article unchanged, correct me if I missed anything there. I do not think it really needs to go into more detail than that.

As to the subsections to the discography, I also disagree with that move. The album is being presented as a new Starship album, the first new album in over 20 years ((http://ultimateclassicrock.com/starship-mickey-thomas-interview-2013/). I do not think we need to create a split here if the person using the name is not making the distinction and calling it the first album by the band Starship featuring Mickey Thomas. The article already has the subsection of the main article covering the Starship featuring Mickey Thomas period, so it should be obvious to the reader what period of the band this album was made in.

While we do not agree here, please understand that my motivation is only for an objective article. Thanks again for your response on this subject. AbleGus (talk) 04:44, 2 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hello AbelGus,

I remain strongly convinced that “Starship” and “Starship featuring Mickey Thomas” are two different bands. Certainly, this can be confusing since Mickey Thomas was ONE of the lead singers in the band, Starship, and he performs Starship’s hits from the ‘80s during his Live shows (along with Jefferson Starship, Jefferson Airplane and Elvin Bishop band songs), and so I can understand where some people might think that Thomas’s current band is a continuation of the original Starship, but it simply is not and users of Wikipedia deserve to have the correct information; either by separating the two pages or by being more clear in the “Starship featuring Mickey Thomas” section of the Starship page (which I believe is highly misleading).

You stated in your most recent response to me:

· “I have covered it in prior posts, but after Craig Chaquico left in 1990, Mickey Thomas apparently continued “with a Starship that included Peter Wolf,” again per Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane” on page 351. In 1991, Starship recorded “Good Heart” for the Starship Greatest Hits (Ten Years and Change 1979-1991). After the band was “essentially fired” by Bill Thompson and dropped from RCA’s active roster (reference the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” Page 351) in roughly mid-1991, it was inactive.”

You have mentioned Tamarkin’s book repeatedly in your arguments opposed to either separate the pages, or to further clarify the difference between Starship and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas as two distinct bands. I believe you have cherry-picked what author Jeff Tamarkin wrote in his book, Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane. On the very page you listed, p. 351, Tamarkin writes that “RCA dropped Starship from its active roster…In early 1992, around the same time Paul Kantner emerged with a new lineup that revived the name Jefferson Starship, Mickey also debuted a new band, consisting of no one associated with the old group. He called his group Mickey Thomas’s Starship.” I place particular emphasis on the word “debuted” and “a new band.” Merriam-Webster defines “debut” as “a first appearance,” and Dictionary.com defines it as, “a first public appearance,” and “the first appearance of something, as a new product.” [1] The part of this sentence, “a new band, consisting of no one associated with the old group,” is very clear. Mickey’s use of the Starship name was in the context of “a new band,” with the definition of “new” by Merriam-Webster being, “not old—recently born, built or created.”[ https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/new] In addition to this, I have provided a quote from a recent interview with Mickey Thomas himself, by the Desert Sun, in which the journalist states, “Then, when its members went their separate ways in 1991, Thomas organized a new band, called The Starship featuring Mickey Thomas.” [2] If that wasn’t enough, I have provided you with a high-quality citation from Billboard Magazine, “In 1992, Thomas organized a band that began playing dates billed as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" or "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas." The definition of “organized” is, “arranged into a formal group,”[ https://www.bing.com/search?q=definition+of+organized&qs=n&form=QBLH&scope=web&pc=EUPP_IC05&sp=-1&pq=definition+of+organize&sc=0-0&sk=&cvid=744729A9326C4D54A9979D071F2BBE60] which is clearly what Thomas did. He arranged a new group. He has also re-recorded Starship’s hits with this new band, according to this same Billboard article and others. In both the Billboard article and in Tamarkin’s book, on p. 351, he did not have “the legal right to use” the name, but no action was taken to stop him. As you have repeatedly cited Tamarkin as the authority on this subject, I am doing the same to bolster my own argument that Thomas’s band was a new band that debuted in 1992, but performed and re-recorded many of the original Starship’s hits—and that he continues to do so.

Lastly, I am attaching a photo of a signed t-shirt that appeared online last week. It is a t-shirt created by Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, and it is signed by him. Its text reads, “Starship 25.” This indicates that his band began in 1992, and that it did not start in 1985, which was the year the “Starship” band actually began.

I am advocating first, a separation of the two pages based on the above research. I believe I have provided sufficient evidence with citations to defend the position that the band Starship existed from 1985 – 1991, and the Mickey started a new band of his own, using the name “Starship,” in the title, while performing and re-recording the hits of the original Starship, as well as including songs from Jefferson Starship, Jefferson Airplane and Elvin Bishop in his sets.

If a separate page is not to be at this time, I advocate re-writing the entry beneath the “Starship featuring Mickey Thomas” section to include quotes by Tamarkin and Billboard and the Desert Sun to make it clear that Starship ended in 1991 and Mickey Thomas debuted a new band in 1992 that re-recorded and performs the hits of the original Starship, as well as song from other bands. Over the years, some of the band members who had joined Starship at its tail end did play with Mickey for a time, as well as many other new members. I would advocate for the Info Box to make a clear delineation between Starship band members and Starship featuring Mickey Thomas band members, as well as similarly separating the album titles in the Discography.

File:Starship 25 Signed T-shirt.jpg

Starship 25

I look forward to your response.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 16:32, 12 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl, thanks for you additional response on this matter. I remain unconvinced of the need to split this article. We have covered this before, but I feel the article as is distinguishes the two eras of the band. As to your statement that Mickey Thomas "performs Starship’s hits from the ‘80s during his Live shows (along with Jefferson Starship, Jefferson Airplane and Elvin Bishop band songs)," he does more than just perform the songs. Mickey Thomas performs them using the name Starship. I have covered earlier that Thomas has stated that he adds the "featuring Mickey Thomas" line to the billing to avoid confusion with the band currently performing as Jefferson Starship associated with Paul Kantner's revival of that name, but the fact is he is using the name Starship. Even the Billboard article you cite does not create a separate page for Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, it adds that information to the Starship article.

Regarding the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution: The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane,” I respectfully dispute your contention that I cherry-picked information. I used the book as a resource to confirm the timeline of events and argue against your assertions about the band being inactive a few years. I did provide information that there were members in the group after 1992 associated with the band prior to 1991 (Brett Bloomfield), so I think it is fair to say that part is not fully accurate for the duration of the band since 1992. As to the part about the group not being authorized to use the name Starship, I have covered that earlier and stand by my position it should not be added. Tamarkin does refer to it as a new band. The author of the Desert Sun article Bruce Fessier refers to "Thomas organized a new band, called The Starship featuring Mickey Thomas" as well. The key is that Mickey Thomas is not calling it a new band. He uses the word "reform" to describe what he did in 1992. Obviously, the Starship featuring Mickey Thomas website also does not distinguish this as being two groups with the same name (http://www.starshipcontrol.com/index.html). The other factor is that the owners of the name, Grace Slick and the late Bill Thompson, have allowed Mickey Thomas to do this. Either he has paid a fee for the right to do it, or they allowed them to do it without authorization. Regardless, since they are not stopping him from using the name or making this claim, and the simple fact is he is doing it, then this article should not take it upon itself to split the topics or call it a new band. The 25th anniversary T-Shirt you posted is not really a valid source of evidence. If issued by Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, and from 2017 (and not 2000), it could refer to him reforming the band in 1992, which he is already on the record saying he did in the Desert Sun article ([http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/arts/2015/12/22/mickey-thomas-finds-his-way-back-home-desert/77718560/) that you have cited.

Wikipedia articles should not make a value judgement on it and separate the articles because of the belief of some that a band is not really the same band, even if they use the name, because it does not contain enough original members. I have covered this as it relates to other bands such as Foreigner or The Guess Who earlier in the discussion, and no such distinction is made in those articles. I maintain we should keep a NPOV and retain the current layout here as well. The fact is he is using the name, and the owners of the name have not stopped him from doing it. The article already describes the history of the band, all the changes in personnel, and indicates the band was dropped from RCA in 1991. It then has a new section under Starship featuring Mickey Thomas for 1992 to present to delineate the eras. All the sources agree the name Starship is being used by Thomas after 1992. I simply do not agree it is a new band if he says he reformed the band, he was in both incarnations, there are other overlapping personnel that I have covered earlier, and there is no challenge from the owners of the name. I also disagree with changing the info box. As I stated before and referenced the Journey page, it is standard format to have the current members listed, and then former members. The information you are referring to is already in the line-ups section, and deviating from the format is akin to a value judgement on the current line-up versus the "classic" line-up. As to the discography, again I disagree. The 2013 album Loveless Fascination is being billed as the first new Starship album in 20 years, and not the first album by the band Starship featuring Mickey Thomas (http://ultimateclassicrock.com/starship-mickey-thomas-interview-2013/). I do not think the article should make the distinction, and it is obvious if you read the rest of the article exactly who was involved in the 2013 album, and who was no longer in the band. The only addition I would make to the Starship featuring Mickey Thomas section about the re-recordings of the greatest hits by the then current band is the following I provided earlier "In 2003, Starship featuring Mickey Thomas released an album containing re-recordings of some of the Starship's biggest hits, songs orignally from period of Mickey Thomas tenure in Jefferson Starship, as well as "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," the hit Thomas sang with the Elvin Bishop Group in 1976. (http://www.billboard.com/artist/280376/starship/biography)." I think that is a simple statement of the facts and does not get into the labeling of the album that I discussed previously.

Again, I welcome your response and thanks for your continued interest in this discussion. I do not feel we will find consensus on this topic, but please understand my only motivation here is a fair, NPOV article. Thanks, AbleGus (talk) 03:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

When exactly to split the Jefferson Starship and Starship articles

It seems we are missing a time period that should go in either the Jefferson Starship or Starship articles. It covers the era after Paul Kantner quit the group in June 1984 through the settlement of the lawsuit and changing the name to Starship in March 1985. This is the time period of where they were still on tour for the Nuclear Furniture album and David Freiberg is still with the group. It is also when they toured sometimes under the name Starship Jefferson. It seems like the article split is currently with Paul Kantner's departure. If we keep it this way, then David Freiberg should be added as a member of Starship for this period. If the split happens with the name change in March 1985, then the Jefferson Starship line-up after Paul Kantner left, but still with David Freiberg as a member should to be added to the Jefferson Starship page. I think the post-Kantner period should fall under Starship, but I am hoping for some feedback. AbleGus (talk) 03:16, 6 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus I have added David Freiberg as a member to Starship through 1984 to include that part of the transition on the Starship page.AbleGus (talk) 03:19, 8 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hi AbleGus,

My response to your question:

Starship did not become “established” until March of 1985 when all remaining members of the band (following Kantner’s departure) signed a legal agreement to retire the name from “Jefferson Starship” and go by just “Starship,” so the date in the first paragraph, “Starship is an American rock band established in 1984,” should be changed to 1985, first of all. That is also the period of time that they notified RCA of the name change. There is no official record of the band ever going by “Starship Jefferson,” so the statement, “The band briefly changed its name to "Starship Jefferson" while legal proceedings occurred, before settling on the shortened name "Starship,” should be removed. Note that the “Background Information” section of the Info Box is also incorrect in stating that Starship began in 1984. This is an error and it should be changed to 1985. Kantner left the band Jefferson Starship in 1984, but the band did not change its name to Starship (and never to Starship Jefferson) until March of 1985; in fact, Kantner had to sue the members in order to get them to change their name, hence the March 1985 agreement.

Second, David Freiberg did continue on with the band, Starship, for a brief period of time until let go from the band prior to their first Starship album, Knee Deep in the Hoopla, was released, under the new band’s name. [Jeff Tamarkin “Got a Revolution” 2003 Atria Books p. 330] I believe we should recognize this fact of history in the Starship article by replacing the inaccurate statement, “He became frustrated with the sessions because all the keyboard work in the studio was being done by Peter Wolf (who had played on the sessions for Nuclear Furniture and briefly joined the band on the road for the follow-up tour) and that was the instrument Freiberg was supposed to be playing.[1] He left the band…” with “…and attended the first studio sessions for the next album before being let go prior to the release of the first album, Knee Deep in the Hoopla, under the new name, Starship. The album was finished with the five remaining members, consisting of…” See my citation above.

I do see that Freiberg’s name is listed under “Past Members” in the Info Box of the Starship page, and I see that he has not been excluded when mentioning the transition in 1985 of Jefferson Starship to Starship on the Jefferson Starship page. You do say you added Freiberg as a member to Starship through 1984, but again, Starship did not officially begin until 1985, so this would be a factual error to add him as a member of Starship through 1984. I look forward to your response.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:06, 12 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl, thanks for your response on this. As currently presented, the Starship article starts when Paul Kantner quit Jefferson Starship in June 1984. The Jefferson Starship article line-ups do not give any line-up after Kantner quit, which includes the missing late 1984 line-up that was also not on this page. If we start the Starship article in 1985, then we need to add that line-up into the Jefferson Starship article. In addition, we would need to change the years active in the Jefferson Starship page to 1985. It is really a question of exactly when we make the split, the information just needs to go to into one article or the other. Not sure, but there might be some resistance from other editors on the Jefferson Starship page to adding that there. As the Starship article previously read, David Freiberg was not listed as a member in the Starship line-up, but should have been, so I added him to the line up. I guess I can live with changing it, as long as no information is lost. I just prefer anything post-Paul Kantner here, as I feel the band transitioned to the next phase stylistically once he left, it only became formalized later on with the name change. You are correct on the 1985 name change date of course. I guess we just need to have consistency with the split. Let me know what you think.

As to the "Starship Jefferson" statement, I did not mean they ever formally changed the name,I think they just billed it that way for concerts. This information is also in the Jeff Tamarkin book [“Got a Revolution” 2003 Atria Books p. 330], which states "For a short while, the Mickey-led group continued to perform defiantly as Starship Jefferson, but by the time they were ready to record the their next album, they had shortened the name simply to Starship."

As to editing David Freiberg's departure, I think we should keep “He became frustrated with the sessions because all the keyboard work in the studio was being done by Peter Wolf (who had played on the sessions for Nuclear Furniture and briefly joined the band on the road for the follow-up tour) and that was the instrument Freiberg was supposed to be playing.[1] as it is sourced. We can then replace "He left the band and the next album was finished with the five remaining members, consisting of Slick, co-lead singer Mickey Thomas, guitarist Craig Chaquiço, bassist Pete Sears, and drummer Donny Baldwin.” with "He was dismissed from the band, and the next album was finished with the five remaining members, consisting of Slick, co-lead singer Mickey Thomas, guitarist Craig Chaquiço, bassist Pete Sears, and drummer Donny Baldwin" and cite the Jeff Tamarkin book [“Got a Revolution” 2003 Atria Books p. 330] which confirms he was fired per Bill Thompson. Not sure if he was let go in the 1984 album sessions or 1985, but the article that we have as a source lists 1985 for his departure. Again, let me know what your thoughts are on this subject. AbleGus (talk) 03:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hi AbelGus, I think we're getting close here. Yes, David Freiberg should have been listed as a member of the Starship line-up though he remained with the band for a short time and was not on their first album release. He did work with them in the studio and performed with them for a short time before being let go/fired from the band. I agree that making 1985 the actual starting date of this band would be accurate, and referencing the transition period, in 1984, when Paul physically left the band, leading up to the March 1985 agreement to change the name would simply place this in historical context which is fine.

As to the “Starship Jefferson” statement, my research indicates that was only found in Tamarkin’s book, and I cannot find any factual information, by any other source, that indicates that this band actually billed it that way for concerts. I don’t believe that is the case, unless you can provide additional sources for that claim. As of now, I don’t find any source that supports this claim and would request that unless an additional source(s) is located for actual performances by this band going under the name Starship Jefferson, this should be removed from the page as inaccurate.

I think your proposed edits with regard to David Freiberg’s departure are sufficient and will agree to them.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 22:25, 15 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl Fullerton

Hello Cheryl. Thanks for your reply. I think we are in agreement that David Freiberg should be listed as a member. I have also added the proposed edits and sourcing on David Freiberg's departure to the article.

As to changing the band years active starting date from 1984 to 1985, I am still not convinced it is the best way to divide this up between the Jefferson Starship and Starship articles. You are absolutely correct that March 1985 was when the name officially was changed, but if we split it there then we would also need to change the years active ending date on the Jefferson Starship article to 1985. We would also need to add the post Kantner line-up from June 1984 through March 1985 into the Jefferson Starship article, or it would appear the band was inactive for a time when we know it was not. I am opposed to making those changes to the Jefferson Starship article. I do not think we disagree about the sequence of events, it is simply a matter of putting this into one article or another. I would rather keep the post-Kantner period out of the line-ups on that page. I think it is better to do the split of articles basically when Kantner departed, with background and subsequent information included in both articles, because that is the critical point in the change. The lawsuit settlement was the conclusion of that process, but I would rather split it at the start of the process.

Regarding the "Starship Jefferson" information, again I do not think it was a formal name change, just something they billed the band as for some shows during this period. I am in favor of keeping it as it is in the Jeff Tamarkin book[“Got a Revolution” 2003 Atria Books p. 330], so there a source for this information. As always, thank you for your feedback on this. AbleGus (talk) 04:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hello AbelGus Thank you for your reply. Here is mine: I understand from your comment that you would rather have the Jefferson Starship article end with Paul Kantner’s leaving the band; however, I strongly disagree with this premise for leaving the article, and the Starship article, factually inaccurate. Kantner left Jefferson Starship in 1984 and that is reflected in the article; however, the band used the name Jefferson Starship through March 1985 when it formally changed to Starship. This is an article about the band and not about Kantner. He has a separate Wikipedia article. I believe that Wikipedia will be more factual, and not based on hunches if the Jefferson Starship page runs through March of 1985 and then segues briefly into Starship, mentioning the name change the remaining band personnel (all members other than Paul) continuing onward with the new name. We can then be accurate with the first paragraph of the Starship article by changing “established in 1984” to “established in 1985.” This would be factually and legally accurate. It is very important, if Wikipedia is to have credibility, for it to be factually accurate and NPOV.

I would also seek to remove the “Starship Jefferson” reference as there is, as I have said before, no evidence that this actually was a fact of the band’s history. It was likely an off-hand comment in jest vs. a fact. If you can show any other proof than this one reference in Tamarkin’s book that the band actually was ever referred to in a single booking as Starship Jefferson, please provide this. Thanks for your input.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:32, 20 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, thanks for your input on this discussion. I think we are in agreement on the chronology here, it is just a matter of when to separate the articles. I do not think NPOV is a factor here, since no content is actually being removed from Wikipedia, it would only be moved from one article to another. I do not dispute the fact that the name change happened in March 1985, but the evolutionary process of the band changing started when Paul left, which appears to be the criteria currently used to split the articles. While the article is about the band, we certainly have to include Paul Kantner in the discussion since he caused the change by leaving the group and then suing the remaining members for continuing to use the name Jefferson Starship. I do not think it is factually inaccurate as long as we explain precisely what the chronology of events was, and that is present in both places. The articles currently end the initial incarnation of Jefferson Starship in 1984 at the Kantner departure and the Starship article begins in June 1984. I think we should maintain the separation at that point. This might also help avoid confusion because the post-1991 version of Jefferson Starship's association with Paul Kantner. Again, I do not think anything should be deleted, it just goes to one place or the other. My initial concern was that the period after Kantner left Jefferson Starship but prior to the name change was not reflected in the line-ups of either the Jefferson Starship or Starship article. That has been corrected. I am not in favor of an additional change to both articles on this matter, they both explain the transition.

Regarding the "Starship Jefferson" inclusion, there is no indication in the Tamarkin book that this was in jest, so we should not take it as such. It was also not a quote from anyone, it a statement by the author. I do not think we can make an assumption that it is not accurate. I feel that is sufficient to retain inclusion in the article as is. I disagree with your assertion to remove it as we do have a source. Thanks again for your response.AbleGus (talk) 04:20, 21 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hello AbelGus Thank you for continuing this exploration to get the Jefferson Starship and Starship articles corrected. At this point, as far as chronology, my suggestion is to change the first sentence on the Starship page from “Starship is an American rock band established in 1984” to “Starship is an American rock band established in 1985.” This would be a change that would make the article accurate. The rest of the details are taken care of in the body of the articles, as to Kantner leaving the band in ’84 and then the band Starship becoming official, as a name change, in 1985. Prior to March 1985, it was still Jefferson Starship.

As to the Tamarkin quote about “Starship Jefferson,” Mr. Tamarkin has been contacted, and he has no memory of where that came from and has said he will try to check his notes from the ‘90s where much of the details in his book came from. In other words, we have no independent corroboration that that is factually accurate so I am advocating for its removal until further corroboration can be had that this is in fact true. If you can come up with verification of this, it can be returned to the article.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 18:58, 24 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, thanks for your continued discussion on these matters. I am opposed to changing the date of from 1984 to 1985, for the reasons I have listed earlier. I remain unconvinced and still think we should maintain the separation at the point of Paul Kantner's departure from the group in June 1984. That was the beginning of the process that ended with the settlement of the lawsuit and name change. I do not believe it is inaccurate to say Starship started in 1984 if you consider the key development in their formation is Paul Kantner leaving, not the subsequent settlement and name change. The band line-up is identical post July 23rd, 1984 during the Nuclear Furniture tour to the day after the name change and settlement were announced, so the larger change is actually the earlier one. I am reverting back the date of your edits to 1984. In addition to our prior discussion, the larger issue is that the change you made did not include any subsequent changes to the Jefferson Starship article of the date from 1984 to 1985. One change would require a second group of changes to the Jefferson Starship article to retain accuracy. By not doing that, the way the two articles stand now make it appear that Jefferson Starship stops in 1984 & there is a gap until Starship starts in 1985. We know that not to be true, so am changing it back to maintain consistency between the two articles.

Regarding the "Starship Jefferson" line, I believe the information should remain along with the source provided. Regarding your correspondence with Mr. Tamarkin, we cannot use your statements about a conversation as a source to remove the information. Please review the Wikipedia verifiability guidelines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability), regarding a conversation you state to have had, with which there is no way for us to corroborate, versus a published source. Per Wikipedia, published means "made available to the public in some form" in the context of using reliable sources. To date, there has been no published refutation by the author or anyone else on this to indicate it was untrue. As far as an additional publication containing this information, it also appears in the Encyclopedia of Popular Music by Colin Larkin, pages 2005-2006 (https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0857125958). That same information can also be found in the Encyclopedia of Popular Music, by Colin Larkin, Revised and Updated 4th Edition (page 655). To conclude, I think it should remain, and will add the Tamarkin citation to the article. Regards, AbleGus (talk) 03:03, 25 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

AbelGus,

While we are in agreement that Kantner’s departure from the group was in ’84, the band Starship did not officially begin until 1985, after the legal agreement was signed. [3] Before that, they were still working officially under the name Jefferson Starship as the band had disagreed that the name should go with Paul hence the lawsuit. [4] If the name had changed in ’84, when Kantner left, there would not have been a need for a lawsuit. So, while you state:

· I do not believe it is inaccurate to say Starship started in 1984 if you consider the key development in their formation is Paul Kantner leaving, not the subsequent settlement and name change

you are mistaken. Regardless of personnel being in both Jefferson Starship and Starship, other than Paul Kantner, the band “Starship” did not officially begin until 1985. It was a name change, not a personnel change other than Kantner. It is not confusing. It is clearcut. In the body of both articles, the transition can be addressed, and should be addressed, however the opening paragraph of each page should be very clear and not confusing. Having the band “Starship” referred to as beginning in 1984 is simply not accurate. I am reverting it back to 1985.

Currently, the Jefferson Starship article does bring the history of that band up to 1985 as it states: “ In October 1984, Paul Kantner took legal action over money he claimed he was owed and to prevent the remaining members from continuing to use the name Jefferson Starship. The lawsuit was settled in March 1985. Kantner received a cash settlement, the name Jefferson Starship became the property of Grace Slick (51%) and Bill Thompson (49%), and all parties agreed to not use the name "Jefferson" going forward.[8] The remaining members renamed themselves Starship, and continued to tour and record music.” Note that I am suggesting a few detailed edits to this statement but nonetheless, it remains clear that Kantner left in ’84, took action over the name, and it was changed in 1985. This would be consistent with the Starship article starting in 1985.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 21:43, 26 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

As for your insistence on keeping in a quote about the band using the name “Starship Jefferson” without bringing any proof that that actually occurred, other than to find a source repeating the rumour. Mr. Tamarkin has no memory of it and I have, in fact, asked band members who were there, and they have no memory of this so it is particularly absurd for this questionable quote to be on Wikipedia as if it were true. Again, is there a source that states the band ever recorded or performed under that name other than stated in the Tamarking book?Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, thanks again for your input on this subject. Again, I think the Starship article should start where it does with the departure of Paul Kantner in June 1984. Rather than continue to revert this sentence, I am removing it with a slight rewording. The dates involved in the lawsuit and name change are already included in this article as it stands, so we are not losing any information. The information in the Starship is also consistent with the Jefferson Starship article on this matter as of now. I am hopeful this compromise will work instead of an overhaul of both articles. Regards AbleGus (talk) 01:12, 27 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Regarding the "Starship Jefferson" inclusion, again I feel it should be included as we have a source for that information. Your purported conversations with Mr. Tamarkin and a band member or members who were there should not be used as grounds to remove it based on the Wikipedia verifiability guidelines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability). Again, your conversations are not a published source. I did include a second location where this information was published, the Encyclopedia of Popular Music by Colin Larkin, pages 2005-2006 (https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0857125958). I am not willing to call Mr. Tamarkin's information questionable here. He did publish it and I have no reason to doubt it at this time. I do not feel you have given a suitable reason to delete, so I disagree with your assessment that it is absurd and should be removed. I continue to contend it should stay with the sourcing information retained as is. As always, thank you for your responses regarding this subject. Regards,AbleGus (talk) 01:45, 27 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Thank you for your continued input regarding this article. There is a problem with the sources you provided for the use of the name "Starship Jefferson." The articles are based on here-say. Can you possibly provide sources for dates and venues that were ostensibly played under the name Starship Jefferson?" For example, if you search Jefferson Starship there are many sources that can be cited, but when you search for "Starship Jefferson," nothing comes up. I propose a compromise by adding: "Author Jeff Tamarkin stated in (book title), 'The band briefly changed its name to "Starship Jefferson"while legal proceedings occurred before settling on the shortened name "Starship.'" I think that should give it balance rather than stating it as a "hard" fact. It is then up to the reader to research it further, if they choose.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 14:46, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hi AbelGus, I am proposing this edit as the reference to the portion of the ’85 Agreement in the paragraph at present is to the use of the name Jefferson Airplane. As this article is about Jefferson Starship and its name change to Starship, the article has to address that part of the agreement---to not use the name Jefferson Starship. This was a different section in the ’85 Agreement than the one regarding the use of the name Jefferson Airplane. Second, the reference to “Starship Jefferson” as having been used is in dispute as there are no records of the band ever having performed under that name. As you have insisted on retaining the quote from Tamarkin’s book regardless, I have added a compromise which is to clearly state that there is no evidence of the band having performed under this other name; however, Tamarkin has referenced it in his book. That way, there is a disclaimer in the article that makes it understood that this sentence is not necessarily fact though published in a book. So, I'm proposing to change that paragraph to this:

In June 1984, Paul Kantner, the last remaining founding member of Jefferson Airplane, left Jefferson Starship. In October 1984, Kantner took legal action over the Jefferson Starship name against his former bandmates. In March 1985, Kantner settled out of court and signed an agreement that no member of Jefferson Starship or any other related entity would use the name, “Jefferson Starship” unless all members of that band agreed (Paul Kantner, Grace Slick, Craig Chaquico, David Freiberg, Donny Baldwin, Mickey Thomas, Bill Thompson) . [5] and [6] Although no concerts have been identified as having occurred under during this period under any name other than Jefferson Starship, author Jeff Tamarkin stated that, “The band briefly changed its name to "Starship Jefferson" while legal proceedings occurred, before settling on the shortened name "Starship."’[1] Which I stated above.I hope this covers it. I await your response.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 19:07, 27 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Greetings Cheryl. With regards to the "Starship Jefferson" discussion, I am not comfortable dismissing the information as hearsay, as we have a source for this information. No information you have provided me makes me think this is unreliable information, so I do not feel it should be removed. Again, we cannot use your private discussion with the author or conversations with person or persons in the band as a source (Wikipedia verifiability guidelines [7]). I am also not in favor of putting a disclaimer in front of the source discounting the information, or indirectly, the work of Mr. Tamarkin. I think we can change the line a bit as a compromise, from "The band briefly changed its name" to "The band briefly performed as." This brings it closer to the information from the source, which reads "For a short while, the Mickey-led group continued to perform defiantly as Starship Jefferson, but by the time they were ready to record the their next album, they had shortened the name simply to Starship." Since we have no documentation they formally announced the name to be Starship Jefferson, just information they briefly used it for performances during that period, this edit better reflects information from the source. Once again, thanks for your continued input in these discussions. AbleGus (talk) 03:17, 28 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hello Cheryl. Specifically in regards to the edits you have proposed to the 1985 settlement, I am opposed to the change. The links you provided regarding the agreement both refer specifically to the currently pending 2017 lawsuit. They are related to Craig Chaquico's allegations in that pending lawsuit, and as such only provide his perspective on the subject since there was no comment from the defense. The lawsuit has not concluded, there are two sides in this litigation, and I feel we should avoid sources directly from this lawsuit here to maintain a NPOV in all related articles about the pending lawsuit. We can use existing sources from the 1985 litigation, such as the Jeff Tamarkin book. Regarding how the Starship article is currently written, the statement is that no one could use the name "Jefferson" or "Airplane" going forward. By using the word "or" here, that would automatically include being unable to use the name "Jefferson Starship" based on the first word. The information is covered in that manner, and again I would prefer not to use sources from the 2017 lawsuit to discuss the 1985 agreement. I am in favor of leaving the article as is. I believe I covered the "Starship Jefferson" modification earlier, so I will not repeat it here. Thanks again for you additional responses to these matters. AbleGus (talk) 05:39, 28 August 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

References

Mediation

You (both) might want to read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution and perhaps get an outside opinion or mediation. I don't know anything about mediation, resolving disputes, or the subject you are debating, so it's probably best for me to avoid getting involved. Finding consensus is tough. Resolving edit wars is tough. I admire how both of you have managed to remain calm and respectful in your disagreements. It looks like a complicated subject that you both know something about. The question at Wikipedia always is: What do the sources say? Today I had to delete a citation from this article that used Twitter. Twitter or any other self-published source can't be impartial and therefore isn't a reliable source. The problem with using YouTube is copyright violation. Most of that material belongs to someone else. If it's a person's own channel, then it's OK. But usually it's a good idea not to bother using YouTube. I applaud the time and effort you both have put into this article. I hope you can resolve your disagreements in a way that you can both accept.
–Vmavanti (talk) 17:08, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Name changes, personnel changes

Well, I said I wouldn't get involved, and now I am. AllMusic has a similar version of the bio that William Ruhlmann wrote for Billboard. Here he is on AllMusic.

In 1992, Thomas organized a band that began playing dates billed as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" or "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas." Although Thomas did not own the right to use the name "Starship," Thompson and Grace Slick, the co-owners of the name, took no action to stop him, and he continued to perform using the name. In 2003, the Brilliant label issued an album credited simply to Starship called Greatest Hits on which a Thomas-led band re-recorded Starship's biggest hits and some songs from Thomas' tenure in Jefferson Starship as well as "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," the hit Thomas sang with the Elvin Bishop Group in 1976."

At the moment, the only material about the new (or "new") band is: "In 1992, Thomas revived Starship as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" before changing the name to Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, which has toured steadily ever since."

There ought to be more than that. The only essential connection from the Starship of "We Built This City" to "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" is Mickey Thomas. So in a sense it is a different band. In fact, he even re-recorded Starship's hits with different personnel. So calling it a "cover band" is an exaggeration but has a bit of truth in it. If this were the band Yes, there would be sentences about who was in the new incarnation, where they came from, what instrument they played, what was their connection, and so on. The situations are different, but my point was that at least the change was explained in some detail. One can do this without writing the biased, breathless prose of a fan site. AllMusic did. Why not follow their lead and paraphrase the facts?

There aren't many sources on the article now. You need to use more than one man's book. Even if does have years of experience writing about the band, you can't rely on only one source.
–Vmavanti (talk) 18:16, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, so much for your input! It is very helpful!Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 21:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Vmavanti, thanks for providing your input on this article. I have attempted to add some sourcing and additional information to cover the post 1992 period. The AllMusic biography also lists the group as being active from the 1980s - 2010s, which coincides with the Wikipedia article. While Mickey Thomas might be the only essential connection, I think that is enough to consider it the same group and to keep it in the same article.

Hello Cheryl, I made a minor change to your edit. I changed the wording from "solo career projects" to "other projects" in that sentence. It still covers the the Desert Sun article, where Thomas says he "pursued some solo things" as well as additional information from other sources. The Jeff Tamarkin book "Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane" (page 372), indicates Thomas also tried unsuccessfully to form a band with Jeff Baxter of the Doobie Brothers and John Entwistle of the Who around this time. I am not sure if that is the same project Thomas is referencing in the Desert Sun article, but since this might be different than strictly being a solo project, I changed the Wikipedia article to reflect this distinction. AbleGus (talk) 01:55, 14 September 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Hello Cheryl, I have reverted your edit to the Starship page. With regards to the Billboard quote, you have quoted 3 sentences directly from the article. Per the Wikipedia Manual of Style on Quotations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations), "While quotations are an indispensable part of Wikipedia, try not to overuse them. Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. It is generally recommended that content be written in Wikipedia editors' own words. Using too many quotes is incompatible with an encyclopedic writing style, and may indicate a copyright infringement. Consider minimizing the use of quotations by paraphrasing, as quotations should not replace free text (including one that the editor writes)." Instead of entering a three line quote, the article would be better served by paraphrasing. The first line as previously written "In early 1992, Thomas revived Starship as "Mickey Thomas' Starship" before changing the name to Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, which has toured steadily ever since," does that with the Allmusic reference. It also corresponds to the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane"” (page 351) that it was “early 1992” when the new version of Starship launched. This also corresponds to the Desert Sun article you have referenced (http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/arts/2015/12/22/mickey-thomas-finds-his-way-back-home-desert/77718560/) where Thomas stated "I decided to reform the band." I feel we should maintain that line as is.

With regards to the next quoted line "Thomas did not own the right to use the name Starship," I have previously discussed my reason for not including that line. I will restate it. Per an interview in 2011 with Gary James of Classic Bands (http://www.classicbands.com/MickeyThomasInterview.html), Mickey states "I've been legally able to use the name Starship for the last 20 years." We do not know if he bought the rights, made an agreement with the owners of the name, or just took it upon himself to do it without authorization, but no one has tried to stop him from doing this in over 25 years. The late Bill Thompson appeared on the "Starship - Greatest and Latest" DVD for part of the interview segment, so clearly he was aware of what Thomas has been doing since he fired the band in 1991 and is not opposing it. Again, it is not fair to add that line, with no mention of other sources that say Mickey Thomas is authorized to use the name "Starship" as that creates an unbalanced article. Adding both pieces of information is still not enough since there still would need to be the line about Thompson and Grace Slick taking no action to stop him anyway. The end result is the same, he is still using the name unopposed. I do not see why we should add the minimal 3 lines of unclear information to end up with the exact same conclusion. I do not think we can definitively say one way or the other what the facts are about the name usage, and Wikipedia articles are not the place to provide assumptions on whether he is legally authorized to use it or not. It has no impact really on the article anyway, as the bottom line is he is using the name and there has been no action taken to stop him or confirmation on the legal question by anyone who owns the name, so I think that should not be included.

The third quoted sentence added, "In 2003 the Brilliant label issued an album credited simply to Starship called Greatest Hits on which a Thomas-led band re-recorded Starship's biggest hits and some songs from Thomas' tenure in Jefferson Starship as well as "Fooled Around and Fell in Love," the hit Thomas sang with the Elvin Bishop Group in 1976," already appears later in the Wikipedia article. The information that appears later paraphrases the AllMusic Starship biography, so your addition is redundant. As I previously stated in our prior discussions on this talk page, the information about the 2003 album of re-recordings does not tell the whole story. The information I added includes that part about the DVD and is sourced. The existing sentence in the article also indicates the recording was done by Starship featuring Mickey Thomas, as the wording in your quote "a Thomas-led band" does not make it clear it was the same group. Regarding the name, the CD/DVD combo on the front says Starship, but the rear cover has a picture of the as then current band members and has the label "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" under the image. That is also the case with the CD issued by Brilliant with Starship on the front cover and a note that this is a new recording, while the rear cover has a picture of the as then current band members and has the label "Starship Featuring Mickey Thomas" under the image. Again, I do not think the Wikipedia article should go into the details about album being released internationally on various labels, and it not being clear in all versions who was involved in the recording. The way it was worded in the existing sentence covers all the information on the sentence you added, and the existing version also includes more clarity on who did the recording. I have removed the redundant entry of that information.

Finally, I have restored the line "Although Thomas has been supplemented by a mostly new cast of performers, bassist Brett Bloomfield did return to the fold for several years." This statement about Bloomfield's involvment was accompanied by two sources (http://www.metal-archives.com/artists/Brett_Bloomfield/189235 and http://articles.courant.com/1998-01-08/entertainment/9801080072_1_jefferson-starship-jefferson-airplane-mickey-thomas), so there is no reason it should be removed, especially without explanation. This information also appears on Rock Report's Melodic and Progressive Rock Bible's entry for Starship (http://melodicandprogressiverockbible.weebly.com/starship.html). Although unsuitable as a source, it also appears on Brett Michael Bloomfield's LinkedIn profile (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bret-michael-bloomfield-6b5b9126). There is no reason to remove this accurate information from the article, so I have restored it. I did leave your typo correction. Regards,AbleGus (talk) 01:55, 15 September 2017 (UTC)Ablegus

Hello Cheryl, I have reverted your edit to the Starship page. By adding the "couple of years" quote from article here, it makes it seem that the band was inactive for a few years after the Greatest Hits album in 1991. Again, we have sourced information that narrows that inactive time period considerably. Starship was still active with RCA in 1991 with the recording of "Good Heart" and release of Starship Greatest Hits: Ten Years and Change. At some point in 1991 after the release of “Good Heart” in April 1991 and the May 1991 release of the greatest hits album, the band was “essentially fired” by Bill Thompson and dropped from RCA’s active roster (reference the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” Page 351). It was “early 1992” and not 1993 when the new version of Starship launched per the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” (page 351). There are other sources (http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-07-03/features/9202170761_1_jefferson-starship-jefferson-airplane-papa-john-creach) (https://www.allmusic.com/artist/starship-mn0000748168/biography) to confirm that time frame of early 1992 for the revival. I have previously posted on this talk-page why I am opposed to using that "couple of years" reference and why it might have been used to describe a period including when the band was still active prior to mid-1991. I maintain that position. I have changed the wording back to briefly to concur with the other sources that indicate a several month inactive period wherein Mickey Thomas pursued these projects, and to avoid creating an impression that the band was inactive a few years.

I have also again changed the wording from "solo career projects" to "other projects" in that sentence. It still covers the the Desert Sun article, where Thomas says he "pursued some solo things" as well as additional information from other sources. The Jeff Tamarkin book "Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane" (page 372), indicates Thomas also tried unsuccessfully to form a band with Jeff Baxter of the Doobie Brothers and John Entwistle of the Who around this time. I am not sure if that is the same project Thomas is referencing in the Desert Sun article, but since this might be different than strictly being a solo project, I changed the article to reflect this distinction. To be honest, I am not sure why this information is even noteworthy enough to merit inclusion in the article, as nothing came of these projects. Regards, 02:14, 10 October 2017 (UTC)AbleGus The Desert Sun article states a couple of years and solo projects.Cheryl Fullerton (talk) 14:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)Cheryl

Hello Cheryl, I have reverted your edit to the Starship page. The "couple of years" line from article here, it makes it seem that the band was inactive for a few years after the Greatest Hits album in 1991, which can be verified is not actually the case. Going directly to the source (http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/arts/2015/12/22/mickey-thomas-finds-his-way-back-home-desert/77718560/), Mickey Thomas stated “So I put together a greatest hits album with a couple new tracks, and went off and pursued some solo things for a couple of years. Then, around 1992, ’93, when I realized people still wanted to hear a lot of Starship, I decided to reform the band." He is placing this period of other projects after the greatest hits album, which was put together in 1991. The recording of the song "Good Heart" is also in 1991 per the greatest hits album liner notes and the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane” (Page 351). The song was released as a single on April 19, 1991 and the greatest hits album itself was released on May 14, 1991. Again, at some point in 1991 after the release of the greatest hits album, the band was “essentially fired” by Bill Thompson and dropped from RCA’s active roster (reference the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” Page 351). In the quote from the Desert Sun article, Thomas is giving an approximate time period of 1992 or 1993 for when the band was reformed. There are other sources that confirm the reformation of Starship was really in early 1992, including the Jeff Tamarkin book “Got a Revolution!” (page 351), and the Sun-Sentinel article from July 3rd, 1992 ((http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1992-07-03/features/9202170761_1_jefferson-starship-jefferson-airplane-papa-john-creach). The AllMusic Starship Biography ((https://www.allmusic.com/artist/starship-mn0000748168/biography) also confirms the year of the re-launch as 1992 as opposed to 1993. A fourth source, the Ultimate Classic Rock article " How Jefferson Airplane Became Jefferson Starship – And Then Just Starship" (http://ultimateclassicrock.com/jefferson-airplane-jefferson-starship-starship/) also places the re-launch of Starship in the early 1990's. The Wikipedia article should not include the very approximate time period of a "couple of years" that Thomas provided based on the numerous sources that show it was not that long a time period. It creates the incorrect impression in the article that the band was inactive for a few years, when it only was for several months.

Again, I have also again changed the wording from "solo career projects" to "other projects" in that sentence. This corresponds with additional information from the Jeff Tamarkin book "Got a Revolution! The Turbulent Flight of Jefferson Airplane" (page 372) about Mickey Thomas unsuccessfully attempting to form a band with Jeff Baxter and John Entwistle, and does not exclude any additional solo projects that might also have occurred.

Finally, I really fail to see any reason why this information merits inclusion in the article at all. No albums, recordings or tours are known to have come out of these projects, so I do not know what would cause it to meet the threshold of notability. Regards,AbleGus (talk) 03:15, 11 October 2017 (UTC)AbleGus

Adding archive link to Old Home Page

Greetings, I have added an archived link and restored the Old Starship Unofficial Homepage to the External Links section of this article. It has some value, as it also contains membership lists and band and an extensive history section. AbleGus (talk) 04:35, 19 February 2023 (UTC)