Talk:Jefferson Starship – The Next Generation

Merge proposal

Jefferson Starship TNG is a direct continuation of Jefferson Starship. As of Jefferson Starships disbanding in 198 Paul Kantner was the only constant member in all bands ever called "Jefferson." As a result when he gets back together with other former Jefferson Starship/Airplane alumni then he did effectively reform Jefferson Starship. Especially since none of their concerts are billed as "Jefferson Starship TNG" but rather just "Jefferson Starship." Even their website claims that they are just Jefferson Starship.Sk8punk3d288 (talk) 17:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

We've been through this already -- there are too many bands with overlapping personnel in the Jefferson family. TNG is not a direct continuation of Jefferson Starship; Starship was. The first version of JSTNG had more in common with the KBC Band (Kantner, Casady, Aguilar); one user suggested merging the two articles. Kantner's Wooden Ships could be considered a Hot Tuna spinoff, for that matter. While I don't believe there is a single satisfactory solution, and funnily enough the present lineup now has three members of the Nuclear Furniture-era Jefferson Starship, it seems fairly clear that the two bands warrant separate articles. What we might want to consider is whether a name change for this article is in order -- the band does not use the "Next Generation" moniker any more, the threat of a lawsuit from Mickey Thomas/Bill Thompson/who knows who else having receded. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 20:31, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Jefferson Starship disbanded in 1984 when it turned into Starship after losing Kantner and the Jefferson name, not to mention shifting musical styles. Therefore even though Starship evolved from Jefferson Starship they are two seperate bands. Eight year later Kantner reformed Jefferson Starship with a different line-up and even though some key members were replaced they are still Jefferson Starship and that is what the band is billed as. I think that giving then a seperate page and template is not the correct way to organize the group and the articles should be merged because they are the same band, despite having some different members. However, Jefferson Starship and Starship are totally seperate bands and warrant seperate pages. It doesn't make sense that there was a band in the 70s/80s called Jefferson Starship and a band today with the exact same name and some of the same members (including one constant member, Kantner) yet they have seperate articles. Sk8punk3d288 (talk) 00:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

JS didn't disband, Kantner left (then Freiberg was booted, then Sears, then Slick left, then Thomas hired two new guys, then Baldwin beat the crap out of him and was fired, then Chaquico left, and then they disbanded). I'd agree the family tree is complicated. However, insisting JS "disbanded" and reformed as JSTNG (which later dropped the TNG) are the same is original research. Things are best the way they are: Each band in the Jefferson Airplane family has its own article. Otherwise, there would be no end to the discussions (as has already been the case) that Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship are the same band, or that Starship really began in 1979, or that JSTNG is really the same band as KBC. The name by itself isn't enough: If Mickey Thomas wanted to sue, he could almost certainly stop Kantner using the "Jefferson Starship" name; he evidently doesn't care about it (and even if he did, his own use of the "Starship" name might come under some scrutiny). If you prefer, you can think of this article as a fork of Jefferson Starship, alongside Starship (band), and, for that matter, KBC Band. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 09:53, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Paul was sued in 2007 for using the Jefferson Starship name for a Microsfot Commercial by Bill Thompson (the manager of the old band) so at least one person involved previously didn't think it was the same band. Also, the Jeff Tamarkin book, about the only definitive book about all the Airplane / Starship incarnations published so far, does not consider the 1992 incarnation as the same band. JoeD80 (talk) 22:45, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, the latest lawsuit over the Microsoft commercial was just settled a couple of days ago. Paul Kantner was given rights to use the name Jefferson Starship, but Grace Slick and Bill Thompson still legally own the name. Kantner now has to pay a small license fee to them. JoeD80 (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, a quick note here because this bit is misunderstood a lot -- Paul was the one who couldn't use the name Jefferson after the lawsuit settlement in 1985, not the band. Bill Thompson was asked in this most recent suit why he didn't sue Paul back in 1992 when the new Jefferson Starship showed up, and Thompson said that he was trying to be a good samaratin. Paul was also sued in 2000 for using the name Jefferson Airplane, and Jack Casady left the band because Paul had used that name. JoeD80 (talk) 22:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Joe. However, I think the terms of the 1985 agreement were that none of them could use "Jefferson" without mutual agreement, no? BTW, when/why did Paul use the JA name in 2000? ProhibitOnions ^(T) 12:54, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, Grace Slick and Bill Thompson had to be the ones to agree to using the name. Since they were both still involved with the band, they could have used the name Jefferson still. As for the 2000 bit, Paul, Marty and an acoustic part of the band performed on certain tour dates, and since they weren't the full electrical Jefferson Starship, they were billed as "Jefferson Airplane's Volunteers." JoeD80 (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

It just seems very tedious that there are two bands with the exact same name both with similar memberships and led by Paul Kantner yet they have seperate articles. When the Yardbirds reformed in 1992 they still are included in the same article despite only having two original members. I see Starship as a totally seperate band because they lost Kantner, the last original Jefferson, as well as Freiberg and their music became totally different. Yes Kantner's 1992 band did have different personnel than the 70s and 80s Jefferson Starship but they still use the exact same name and giving them two articles and templates only further confuses things.64.148.30.250 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:58, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I would take issue on whether the style of music really changed between Nuclear Furniture and Knee Deep in the Hoopla. They didn't lose Freiberg; they fired him. This incarnation hardly ever plays any Jefferson Starship songs. They play many more Airplane songs. Take a look at their latest major release, Across the Sea of Suns (ok, it's not on wikipedia yet but I'm working on it). Out of 25 songs, only 4 of those were Jefferson Starship songs ("Miracles", "Caroline", "There Will Be Love", "Hyperdrive"). 17 are Jefferson Airplane songs! (the rest from Paul & Marty's solo albums). If we call it a reunion band, we would be more accurate calling it Jefferson Airplane reunion part 2! I was an advocate for keeping all the articles in one big article, but as long as we split Hot Tuna, Jefferson Starship, and Jefferson Airplane, this incarnation should be split too. JoeD80 (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there wasn't much musical change between Nuclear Furniture and Knee Deep In The Hoopla but there is a definite musical difference between Jefferson Starship's heyday and everything that Starship did. I think the best way to seperate the articles is Jefferson Airplane (1965-1973, 1989), Hot Tuna (1969-78, 1984-), Jefferson Starship (1974-84, 1992-) and Starship (1984-90, 1992-). That's the way RYM lists it and it seems to make more sense than splitting up two articles of bands with similar personnel and identical names. Especially since after the recent lawsuit the people who legally own the name are endorsing Kantner's band and allowing him to tour as Jefferson Starship. Also, Jefferson Starship-TNG released very little original material but the material it did release was on an album by Jefferson Starship. It's true that they play more Airplane material than Starship material but that's because by the time JS reformed people wanted to hear those songs more and thats what Paul and Marty felt like playing. Not to mention the fact that Paul released the first Jefferson Starship album as a solo project for himself.64.148.30.250 (talk)

Yes Paul's album in 1970 used the Jefferson Starship name, but that's in the Paul Kantner template and not the Jefferson Starship one (the original LP is LSP-4448 "Paul Kantner - Blows Against the Empire"). JoeD80 (talk) 21:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm beginning to think that JS and JS:TNG, and probably Starship, should be merged, as both JS bands use the same name and Wikipedia isn't in the business of deciding who has a claim to what name. Starship belongs in there as a continuation of JS after 1984. Blows does not; it's a Paul Kantner solo album, and he recycled the name. I'm just wondering how we'd do the chronology, with Starship and later TNG albums. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that JS and JS (TNG) are essentially the same band because of Paul Kantner and the fact that they have the exact same name. Yes, their membership differed significantly after they got back together in 1992 but so does the membership of most bands that reform. At least all the groups had Kantner in common. Starship was a direct continuation of Jefferson Starship but I still see them as two different bands. In the same way that Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship are different. One continues directly where one ended and they have similar names/members but they are still seperate entities. 64.148.30.250 (talk)—Preceding comment was added at 10:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

How does a band that reunites years later with different members qualify as the same band but an actual continuation of the band (members, staff, 2400 fulton street, RCA contract) qualify as a different entity? JoeD80 (talk) 20:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Despite all my stubbornness about saying where one band ends and the other begins, I will have to agree with merging Jefferson Starship and TNG. I'm not sure about RYM's validity as a source, but Billboard does split them the same way: Jefferson Airplane, Jefferson Starship, Starship, Hot Tuna, with Jefferson Starship covering both 1974-1984 and 1992-on, and they certainly count as a secondary source. JoeD80 (talk) 22:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement as all versions of a group called Jefferson Starship have Kantner in common and with Freiberg now in the mix as well it seems to me that the two JS articles should be merged. The name is the same, the memberships similar and the sounds are very near the same also. SMS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.120.63 (talk) 20:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The reason some sources split Jefferson Starship and Starship is simply that they go by artist name only, no matter what. Anyway, I have no objection to merging the JS and JS:TNG articles as long as Starship is included; the band did not consider itself to be a different entity, and personnel changes were nothing new. There would otherwise be WP:NOR concerns. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 19:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty much how wikipedia works too. Artist name no matter what. You might be able to consider them the same band if there had been no membership changes but both Kantner and Freiberg left (Freiberg may have been fired, the point is he was no longer in the band). As a result the band's name changed and it became a different band. If Jefferson Starship and Starship are the same band then Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship must be the same band too. In both of these cases a couple of important members left and then the band's name was altered slightly. That would in turn mean that Jefferson Airplane and Starship are the same band which they are clearly not even close. There is nothing in common between the first line-up of Jefferson Airplane and ANY lineup of Starship. In fact the only JA member to ever be in Starship was Grace Slick and she wasn't even in the band the whole time. Look at it this way, there's two seperate bands, Jefferson Airplane and Starship. Jefferson Starship was in the middle when the bands' memberships and names overlapped. This could be compared to when the Small Faces became The Faces. Even the official Jefferson Starship site considders the two Jefferson Starships to be the same as all members of both versions of the band are listed on this page (click the link and go to "Backstage"). If you notice no members of Starship that were not in Jefferson Starship are not listed.64.148.30.250 (talk)—Preceding comment was added at 19:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If people leaving the band makes it a new band, then Jefferson Starship 1979 is a different band from Jefferson Starship 1978. Jefferson Starship would not exist but for Jefferson Airplane. They didn't have to get any new record contracts or hire any new staff because they already had everybody. Grunt Records (used until 1987) was a Jefferson Airplane imprint. 2400 Fulton Street was used as their office from 1968 until 1986. They still had a contract with RCA because Jefferson Airplane did. When Jefferson Starship initially started performing they played Jefferson Airplane songs and material from the solo albums Blows Against the Empire, Sunfighter, Baron von Tollbooth & the Chrome Nun and Manhole. When Starship started playing without Paul and David they were playing the same songs that they had been playing. The current web-site doesn't list any members of Starship because it's Paul's web-site and he didn't play with them. In the case of 1988 Starship, when Grace left the band she took Grunt Records with her. Also, if we go by secondary sources again, I see that Rolling Stone's Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll has them all under one entry. JoeD80 (talk) 17:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Jefferson Starship had different lineups from 1978 and 1979 but it was still the same band because it was called Jefferson Starship. There was also a lineup change when they became Starship but the difference is they also changed their name. That makes it a new band. They were still Jefferson Starship between 1978 and 1979. They became a new band in 1984 because of the combination of the name change and personnel change. Paul Kantner essentialy is Jefferson as he was the only member in every lineup of Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship from 1965 and 1984 which is why he was able to revive the Jefferson Starship name without much arguement from anybody. I agree that Starship was a direct spin off of Jefferson Starship with similar members but the combination of the name change, membership loss, and different musical direction makes it a different entity. As much as Jefferson Airplane are different from Jefferson Starship or The Small Faces are different from The Faces. I guess because Jefferson Starship and Starship are so closely related you could merge the two articles but I think the two seperate names warrant seperate articles because they were different bands.Sk8punk3d288 (talk) 18:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, so the overall consesus seems to be to combine Jefferson Starship & Jefferson Starship - The Next Generation. I will combine the templates if that's the final decision! I'll make sure to add the stuff about the recent lawsuit in too since the settlement was reached. JoeD80 (talk) 19:24, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

What about "Starship (band)"? Is the consensus to leave that separate, or combine it also? — Mudwater ^(Talk) 23:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Merge it. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 10:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I say keep them seperate because Jefferson Starship is not the same as Starship. Starship was missing the "Jefferson" and changed their members/musical style. I will again make the comparison of The Small Faces and The Faces. They're both extremely closely related bands yet still different (and therefore have different articles) because their names and memberships are different. However, If you really want to merge them you could but I disagree in the name of accuracy.Sk8punk3d288 (talk) 15:11, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that's an apt analogy; Starship considered itself the same band as JS, and the Small Faces didn't (they had a different singer and guitarist). When I saw Starship perform in 1985, the band didn't say anything about being a new band; for example, Mickey Thomas introduced "No Way Out" as "This is a song we did last year". Look on YouTube for Grace Slick's guest appearance as an MTV VJ, where she also chats with Thomas and Craig Chaquico, where they joke about how they haven't broken up "despite any rumors." If you're counting, Ten Years and Change begins in 1979, not 1984. In fact, we could consider merging JS, S, and JA, as the RIAA does ("Jefferson Airplane/Starship"). However, I'd be content to keep the Airplane and the Starship separate, with or without the Jefferson. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 16:15, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Well the template already had Jefferson Starship and Starship combined anyway! I just have to add the later Jefferson Starship to it. JoeD80 (talk) 20:33, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Balin

Should Marty Balin be classified as a "former member" even though he still occasionally performs with the band and will be featured on their forthcoming studio album? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.198.105.229 (talk) 23:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

That's a good question that I bet Paul wish he knew the answer to also. Most of his planned vocals have already been recorded by David Freiberg and Cathy Richardson instead and there doesn't seem to be any indication that Marty recorded on the new album at all. There is a message on the band's page that says "This may not be the record MARTY wants to make & I respect that" which makes me think that Marty chose not to participate in the end for the new album. Marty did perform with the band in April but he is not listed for any of the scheduled tour dates for the rest of the year. JoeD80 (talk) 22:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

So Freiberg finally gets to be lead singer, something he was hired to do in, what, 1973? Joe, do you know how far along in the Jefferson Starship vs. Paul Kantner dispute Freiberg was fired? (If there was "bad blood" between him and Kantner, or whether he left before it became nasty?) While I'm at it, there seems to be little contact between Mickey Thomas and the rest of the old band, but then again Thomas now performs some of Balin's songs in concert. I don't suspect we'll be seeing any guest appearances, though... ProhibitOnions ^(T) 09:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

David did perform some lead vocals after Grace & Marty left the band (although not too many). Off the top of my head: Save Your Love, Alien, I Will Stay. Not sure if bad blood started between them before Paul left the band, but Paul was pissed at David for not leaving when he did. David wasn't fired from the band until after the lawsuit settlement in 1985. They made up at some point recently and they've been performing together since 2005 now. Not sure about Mickey, but he seems content to do his own concerts. JoeD80 (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, Mickey Thomas sang lead on all those tracks, although Freiberg's harmonies were very noticeable, and on several other tracks on the earlier Thomas-era albums ("Fading Lady Light" springs to mind). In the Airplane, he only seems to have performed harmony vocals as well (he's credited only with "vocals" and shown standing upfront on the stage on the back of Thirty Seconds but doesn't sing lead on anything). I gather he was considered as a possible replacement for Balin in 1979, as well. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 14:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well I never know how to call it lead vocals / harmonizing vocals / background vocals. Those tend to blend together a lot of times (see: Grace Slick). I am pretty sure that's David singing some of the lead vocals on Save Your Love though. Similar vocals to Mickey but lower pitch. I always assumed that's why Pete did all the bass and keyboard work on that track.JoeD80 (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But back to the main issue. AFAIK, Balin seems to be out of the present band, and so he'd be a "former member". If he occasionally performs with them, he might still be a "guest" but not a member. Or something. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 14:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

He's not in the band picture for the 2008 tour so I would agree. David, Paul, Slick, Chris, Donny, and Cathy seem to be the "official" members. JoeD80 (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The Jefferson Starship website has two concerts in 2008, one in July and one in November listed as "with Marty Balin" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandmountainslim (talk • contribs) 17:47, 22 June 2008 (UTC)