Talk:Shiva Baby

Talking about the cast (not) being Jewish

Mostly in reference to this edit, by @All Hallow's Wraith:. The Cohen source only explicitly mentions Sennott is not Jewish (and that Agron is Jewish but she "plays the WASP-iest character"); it does infer that Deferrari isn't Jewish, but it doesn't say it, and it doesn't mention Draper's ethnic background or faith at all (though IndieWire does). While we could look for other sources (and if you're doing it, Seligman herself recently said in an interview that Gordon isn't religious and it's known Melamed was raised secular, the sentence should probably include most of the cast), it might be WP:OR and WP:SYNTH to be pointing it out when the source where Seligman talks about casting only focuses on Sennott not being Jewish. What do people think? Perhaps it's useful to note but I'd like to see a source that connects the cast's Jewishness with the movie if we're going to put it in the same sentence (also discuss the merits of a separate sentence). Kingsif (talk) 10:13, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Also pinging @LaserLegs:, my favorite WP:DETAIL stickler, for that policy view on if it's a relevant level of detail - and you could comb the rest of the article if you're willing to read about film :) ? Kingsif (talk) 10:36, 3 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, and since you asked, it seems relevant given the effort made to find Jewish cast members to highlight the leads, but the current writing is problematic because the sources don't explicitly state the ethnicity/religion of the leads. Better to use a full stop and add "Sennott, Deferrari, and Draper are not Jewish." each with it's own distinct WP:RS, and all of that stuff would be fine in the individuals bio article anyway. "though Draper married a Jewish man and raised her children Jewish" is irrelevant those people aren't in the film. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:36, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Thanks for the reverts. On this topic I don't know about Deferrari being not Jewish, it was @All Hallow's Wraith: that added (and then re-added?), and it's inferred in the main source there. I tried to search him and the only thing that might talk about it is a recent interview that is unfortunately long and all audio, if anyone wants to listen for an answer. Until then, might be best to not include him. Kingsif (talk) 18:22, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Now found a text source where Deferrari is quoted saying he's Jewish. Guess we can put that one to bed. Kingsif (talk) 11:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. Kingsif, I had simply misread the diff and its context: I thought someone had inserted "is Jewish" into the middle of a sentence, found that to be a strange addition to a Wikipedia article and removed it. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:28, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

@ToBeFree: Oh no, you were totally right, it's a weird edit (and by an IP with no edit reason is suspect). The long message here is for the whole context - the Jewishness of the actors seems to be a concern! Kingsif (talk) 18:44, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks :) I personally don't (or try not to) care about religion, ethnicity, gender et cetera. I personally also see no need to include such information in Wikipedia articles, except if there are reliable secondary sources that verify the information's relevance. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 18:53, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Just as an aside, I did a little bit of digging because Molly Gordon's page mentioned she was Jewish, she did an interview a couple weeks ago where the beginning talks about her experience as a Jewish theatre kid. QueerFilmNerd^talk 05:15, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@QueerFilmNerd: Well I'm of the mind to keep the mentions out except where discussed in relation to the film - Sennott, Agron, and Draper being those. Also thanks for the plot edits, I didn't realize when another editor said they streamlined it, they meant expanded. Kingsif (talk) 10:15, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, I'm personally of no opinion, just thought I'd do some research since I'd remembered Molly's page saying this. Also, no problem, I thought it looked a little long. It's not perfect, but it'll do for now. QueerFilmNerd^talk 10:19, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

As another aside, a related fact was used for a December 2020 DYK about the lead actress, as something intriguing about her, and that probably shouldn't bear relevance on inclusion here. Kingsif (talk) 10:35, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

AGENDA editing

@All Hallow's Wraith: I've taken my time responding to your edit/reason because I couldn't quite put my finger on what about your general editing behavior irked me, and I've now come to realize it's because I believe you are editing here entirely with an WP:AGENDA. I won't say you are simply an WP:Agenda account, though all your edits are about ethnicity and you have been involved in several disputes about relevancy, but I do think that in this case you had done WP:OR and made up your mind about who of the Shiva Baby cast was Jewish and that a POV narrative about the casting choices needed to be pushed, and now won't listen to anything that disagrees with your OR - from adding Deferrari as not Jewish despite it being irrelevant in the discussion and untrue per sources from Deferrari and Seligman, to removing sourced statements about Sennott going to Hebrew school on her bio (not unheard of with Catholics) with the reason you thought the source was wrong.

This is inappropriate editing behavior; I don't know why you care so much about which members of the cast are Jewish, or what moral argument you want to win by having Wikipedia frame the issue a certain way to presumably give your stance on authentic casting legitimacy, but you are in massive violation of (at least) WP:V - Wikipedia uses information from reliable sources that is verifiable, i.e. not necessarily true but the "known truth", what's recorded. This means that whether you believe the sources saying that Molly Gordon was raised Jewish but isn't religious, Deferrari is Jewish, and Sennott went to Hebrew school, are correct or not, you cannot remove the sourced facts because of your personal views on their accuracy. There is also a debate to be had about WP:OWN and WP:DUE - you added statements about cast members not being Jewish without any sources and before there was any discussion in media about the authenticity of casting, i.e. there was no relevance of these statements to the movie and so it was clearly to make a WP:POINT, and now you insist on only listing certain cast members even when others have been brought into that discussion in reliable sources. Whatever picture you are trying to paint, whatever point you want to make about Sennott, Draper and Deferrari, Wikipedia is not your advocacy platform. Kingsif (talk) 22:09, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

I'll ping those involved above in case they have any views on Molly Gordon's inclusion from the relevancy standpoint, or if they want to chime in anyway: @LaserLegs, ToBeFree, and QueerFilmNerd: Kingsif (talk) 22:17, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, I personally have no opinion on whether or not Molly Gordan is included personally, and personally don't know how super relevant is it outside of Sennott (who isn't Jewish) and maybe Agron (who is but isn't playing a Jewish character). Whatever we decide to do, there is an entire article where Gordan talks about her experiences as a Jewish theatre kid that can't be discounted (regardless of whether or not her and her family are still practicing). QueerFilmNerd^talk 00:35, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

@QueerFilmNerd: Thanks, I didn't think your view would change from above. There is an interview now, though, where a very RS newspaper has interviewed Seligman, and in their representation question they talked about Gordon, so she is being discussed. I would personally want to keep any mention of all this in the article as short and sweet as possible for NPOV, but perhaps contextual nuance is needed (and if that can't be achieved, blanket removal of cast names and just leave mention of Seligman's casting decisions.) Kingsif (talk) 00:43, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Kingsif, I would personally leave it out of the page. My assumption is they were religious and they're probably not anymore so it's probably best to just leave it out. Either way, not super relevant beyond just Sennott's casting IMO. QueerFilmNerd^talk 09:43, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping, but as previously stated above, I don't really care about the content-related dispute. Regarding behavior, an article talk page is relatively unsuitable for raising such concerns; please ask the user directly on their talk page, and if the response is unsatisfactory or the problems persist, a discussion at WP:ANI can help. In any case, linking to diffs as evidence of the alleged behavior will be required. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 08:42, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, thought the ping would just be courteous since I was basically restarting an old discussion. For the behavior issue, I am not familiar enough with their other edits to really have grounds to raise concerns except in relation to this article, so I put the discussion here for others to find more easily in case the behavior persists. (Having it attached to the article can also act as a deterrent for that reason; it can't be self-archived and may be considered a warning.) Kingsif (talk) 12:48, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

I would say it's a version of "fact" editing. Sennott and Draper aren't Jewish. Gordon (you're joking/etc.) is Jewish. I wouldn't necessarily have included the sentence about their Jewishness at all, but someone added something nonsensical about "the director set out to cast Jewish actors" in there, nonsensical because she didn't, so if we're putting in the part about her wanting to, we should add that she didn't. Facts. Nothing more. And just because some website in India accidentally called Gordon not Jewish, has nothing to do with anything. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:37, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

What? Deferrari says he's Jewish, are you disputing him? And some website in India - the very RS major circulation newspaper The Hindu - posed the question to Seligman, who didn't correct them and previously said of her own accord that Gordon "isn't religious". You seem to think both that you know better than these people about themselves, and that your view of fact overrides WP:V, which it never will. In your response we now see your agenda: you're angry that Seligman said she cast Jewish actors when not all of the cast are Jewish. What a petty waste of editing. Kingsif (talk) 21:33, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Probably why I keep taking out Gordon's name from that sentence. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 01:00, 22 June 2021 (UTC)