Talk:List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe

Recent edits

This mass edit warring should stop, anything furher on should be discussed here, one editor even breached 3RR.(KIENGIR (talk) 20:23, 22 December 2020 (UTC))

Yes totally agreed; this insanity needs to stop. The problem started when some users started to place Turkey and Kazakhstan in the area of "considered Asian countries". Turkey is a member of SEVERAL European organizations, the most important of which is the Council of Europe. Whereas Kazakhstan isn't a member of a single European organization and its history, culture is heavily tied to Central Asia. The two are simply incomparable in terms of Euoropeannes. Sweetkind5 (talk) 20:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Almost all sources regard Kazakhstan an Asian country, despite a tiny bit of its area in northwest being in Europe. Sweetkind5 (talk) 20:46, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

First off, your aggressive edit tactics and use of unscholarly sources, is not appreciated nor is it constructive. Please see your talk page; you have been warned multiple times this month alone. As for your rationale- it is flawed. Both Kazakhstan and Turkey are generally considered Asian countries as the vast majority of their land and population resides in Asia proper. Yes, Turkey is a member of certain European organizations but that does not change the fact that Turkey is still considered an Asian state. Also, contrary to what you claimed above, Kazakhstan is a member of a few European organizations like the European Higher Education Area. That does not make them a "European" country, just as Turkey's membership in the Council of Europe does not make it European. Not to mention, both countries are members of various Asian integration pacts like the Asia Cooperation Dialogue. I hope you can finally understand why your edits are not an improvement to this article. Archives908 (talk) 21:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Side note- I think this whole sentence in general is very problematic. Georgia, by no means, is considered Asian. The current Georgian government is very Pro-EU, the govt' finalized a comprehensive trade and political deal with the EU, they aspire to full EU membership (and NATO/ other Euro-Atlantic structures), and they have zero Asian integration plans. It is very misleading to the current geopolitical realties. Archives908 (talk) 21:53, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

The sentence in question is out of place and should be removed. Original research about what makes something a European or Asian country are a bit much for this page, which already shows the Geography while also taking an expansive view in the list. CMD (talk) 01:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Archives908 (talk) 01:50, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with Archives' summarization. I just wanted to say, either we restore that version the we achieved together with Archives initially and source it properly, or we delete this as uncited (even tagged).(KIENGIR (talk) 03:56, 23 December 2020 (UTC))

Thanks (KIENGIR (talk), I agree. The recent escalation of back-and-forth edits is getting out of control. We should either restore to what we achieved together (with citations) or remove completely. If any other editors care to share their opinions please do so, otherwise we will be WP:BOLD and put this matter to rest. Archives908 (talk) 04:24, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

turkey has thrace, which is undeniably european, and has participated in european politics ever since the 15th century. Cal3000000 (talk) 07:41, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

I, honestly, don't care to take part in this discussion, since the only that's talked about here is pure antiTUrkish propaganda with no basis in reality. Until that changes, don't expect me to stop my war on propaganda edits. Sweetkind5 (talk) 23:51, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

Being European has nothing to do with language or history (as in "But the Turks only came here in 1494 and they are invaders!"). This is not how you evaluate a country's Europeannes. You instead look at their current geopolitical stance. Turkey is a transcontinental country, just like Russia. And JUST like Russia, it is a member of sevral European organizations and even went as far as applying for EU membership, which even Russia didn't do. Clearly, it is considered a European country by many countries, otherwise none of it would be possible for Turkey. So I hope you all now have and understanding of why we can't include Turkey in the Asian list. Sweetkind5 (talk) 00:02, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

If I see anymore comments of "but Turkey is simply not a European country! Why? I donno, it just isn't! The turks are invaders! They only came here in 15th century! F*** the Turks!", I will simply not take part in this discussion. Period. Sweetkind5 (talk) 00:08, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

The same aforementioned reasons were used to include Armenia and Cyprus in the European list, even though they are completely located in Western Asia. So, the same will be true for Turkey. Sweetkind5 (talk) 00:13, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

This is vast WP:DE and WP:HEAR. Our policies are clear, and the talk page discussion as well (everything was explained), as outlined above.(KIENGIR (talk) 15:16, 27 December 2020 (UTC))

cyprus is not in western aisa. it is in the eastern mediterainian and is further away fronm aisia than a lot of greece so you might as well say greece is in aisa Cal3000000 (talk) 07:44, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Just a thought, why don't we not engage in speculative takes on weather something is more "Asian" or more "European" on this article. Turkey for instance as aforementioned is apart of countless European orginaztions, is covered by news organizations like the BBC as a European nation, but is geographically almost entirely in Asia. Sometimes a country is complicated geopolically, culturally, lingustically, historically, etc - but why do we need fight over something that could just be omitted. My understanding is that an editor does not want a transcontinental nation to be labeled strictly "Asian" on this country list page, then couldn't we just state its a transcontinental nation and move on? And also just to state this clearly - opinions are not meant to be on wikipedia and neither are ad hominem attacks.QeeGeeBee (talk) 05:37, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

With respect, QeeGeeBee. First of all, you mentioned that Turkey "is almost entirely in Asia". While it is true that geographically only a little over 3 percent of its area is in Europe, it needs to be taken into account that around 20 percent of its population actually live in that European area. Now, regarding your question. It is already mentioned in the article that Turkey, along with Georgia, Kazakhstan,Russia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, are transcontinential countries. However, politically and culturally countries cannot be affiliated with "transcontinentialism". It has to be mentioned with which continent those countries are often affiliated. Sweetkind5 (talk) 11:21, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

The problem your edits pushed an improper affiliation, explained above.(KIENGIR (talk) 14:58, 28 December 2020 (UTC))

It also should be noted that it simply is not true that "around 20%" of Turkey's population lives in its European portion (East Thrace). Only 14% of Turkey's population lives in its European portion, which means that 86% lives in Asia. By comparison, 78% of Russia's population lives in the European portion of Russia, while only 22% of its population lives in Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population and the sources cited therein. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 16:06, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I restored the sentence to the previous status quo, pending outcome of this discussion and a consensus about what statement to make, if any, about Kazakhstan. I would suggest that a statement that any particular transcontinental country is "generally associated with" Europe or Asia is likely to be too simplistic and vague to be verifiable in the reliable sources on the subject. If there is to be a statement, I'd also suggest it not be done by hijacking an existing sentence about Russia, though in any case, I also removed that sentence, see below. --IamNotU (talk) 16:38, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

I agree with IamnotU.

Under the commonly used geographic definition, the boundary between the continents of Asia and Europe stretches along the Ural Mountains, the Ural River, and the Caspian Sea in the east, the Greater Caucasus range,[1] and the Black Sea with its outlets, the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles, in the south.[2][3] Based on such a commonly used division of the continents, the transcontinental states of Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Turkey have territory in both Europe and Asia.

The island of Cyprus in Western Asia is close to Anatolia (or Asia Minor) but is often considered to be a part of Europe and is a current member of the European Union. Like Cyprus, Armenia is also entirely in Western Asia but is a member of several European organisations.[4]"

This is a very neutral and good edit IamnotU. Its short and to the point and does not get into speculative opinions. I think this issue has been solved and should be put to rest. QeeGeeBee (talk) 19:34, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposed re-inclusion of last edit "Non-sovereign devolved countries"

Scotland and Wales are class both classed as countries, they have their own national parliaments but are not sovereign and so should be included under a heading such as "Non-sovereign devolved countries" or something similar. Looking to attain consensus for this or an alternative suggestion. Thanks!Titus Gold (talk) 21:04, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

IMHO, they shouldn't be included & Northern Ireland should be excluded. They're not "dependent territories". GoodDay (talk) 05:36, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

The article is 'List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe' - neither Scotland nor Wales (nor Northern Ireland) fit, regardless of them being 'classed as countries'. Llwyld (talk) 05:56, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree with your thoughts here after removal of Northern Ireland and I agree that Wales, England, Scotland and NI are not sovereign. I am considering creating a separate category such as ''Non-sovereign countries of Europe". Titus Gold (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

What purpose would such an arbitrary category serve? CMD (talk) 17:25, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

to go into a bit more detail and show the places that have a degree of autonomy Cal3000000 (talk) 07:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Cyprus and Armenia

Cyprus and Armenia are not geographically located in Europe. They are only associated with Europe, and thus should be removed from the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A44E:FA4A:0:70B8:89BD:B14C:13B1 (talk) 01:06, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed time and time again. Consensus is that they are to be included, with notes explaining their geography. Archives908 (talk) 01:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

missing: orthographic projection SVG

like other continents have: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Africa_(orthographic_projection).svg 177.86.22.177 (talk) 21:22, 22 November 2023 (UTC)