Talk:List of sovereign states/Archive 15

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(North) Macedonia

For info, there is an WP:RM at Talk:Republic of Macedonia, and an RFC being planned at WT:MOSMAC that would lead to a change in the consensus around how we should name that country.

To remind everyone, WP:MOSMAC is the binding and enforceable result of Arbcom proceedings, intended to resolve the spillover of the Macedonia naming dispute on Wikipedia. There is a 1RR restriction in place for all changes to the name of the Republic of Macedonia on all articles, that does not apply to editors restoring the WP:MOSMAC consensus.

It would appear that the discussion is headed toward a position where the article Republic of Macedonia will be renamed in anticipation of a change to WP:MOSMAC, but if this is the consensus it will only apply to that article. References to Macedonia on other articles (including this one) will continue to rely on WP:MOSMAC. Which means that, whatever the outcome of the RM, we are required not to adopt the new name until it is approved by the RFC. This will take at least 30 days from the day the RFC is opened. Kahastok talk 18:01, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
I've just edited the list to change the long name "Republic of Macedonia" to "Republic of North Macedonia" as the change is now official, but kept the short-form "Macedonia" until the RFC. (And given, I removed the note about the name's dispute since it is no longer disputed.) Nice4What (talk) 03:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

When it comes to North Macedonia should it be "Macedonia, North"? Just like North Korea is Korea, North. Just a thought. thanks earth1000

Disagree as the word North is part of the country's constitutional name similar to the case of South Africa and South Sudan. North Korea and South Korea are not the constitutional names of either of those states which is why they are listed as Korea, North and Korea, South. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 23:08, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@Earth1000: Yes, as Cordyceps-Zombie stated above, the entry will be listed as "North Macedonia", just like "South Africa" and "South Sudan". - Wiz9999 (talk) 01:12, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Language Constitution is written in

I recommend a new column for the language(s) the sovereign states' Constitution(s) are written in.--Wyn.junior (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

That sounds like a like a can of worms that we really don't need to open. Go look at List of official languages by country and territory. Kahastok talk 18:07, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Agreed, leave language out. Some elements of this list are controversial enough without bringing in official/unofficial language controversies as well. - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:27, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Some day we will have a column with this very important information--Wyn.junior (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I disagree. - Wiz9999 (talk) 18:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Numbered list

I suggest numbering this list of 206 states.--Wyn.junior (talk) 18:35, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Why? Kahastok talk 18:45, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, this does seem kind of pointless. One of the advantages of the list in its current form is the capacity for alternate column sorting that exists. Adding numbers won't add anything to the lists default alphabetical ordering, and won't add anything to the column sorting elements either. It is just adding complexity for the sake of complexity. - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:31, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
I honestly typed this full list up in Microsoft Excel to make sure there were 206 listings. There were but a numbering would give anyone this assurance up front--Wyn.junior (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
It is still unimportant. 206 is the correct value, if there is a new entry (Catalonia, Scotland, etc.), it will be adjusted as such. - Wiz9999 (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Why is there a United Nations membership column?

This is an article for Member states of the United Nations. This here is a list of sovereign states. There are great interruptions to this article because of the UN information. I am suggesting we delete the full United Nations columns from this article. The UN Status could be noted in the "Further information on status and recognition of sovereignty" column with the rest of the information. Then we could have a full list in alphabetic order without any interruptions--Wyn.junior (talk) 17:40, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

This has been discussed at length, and rejected (See here, here, and here). There is more in the archives, but I don't have the time to search through them right now. - Wiz9999 (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
Ok. I am going to create a List of sovereign states by alphabetical order.--Wyn.junior (talk) 19:07, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
If you do, I have no doubt that it will be taken to WP:AFD and will be deleted as a content fork of this article. Wiz9999 has already pointed out that the list is deliberately sortable on any of the first three columns to allow the user to present alternative points of view. Kahastok talk 19:55, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
This is crazy. The people deserve a simple alphabetical list of the 206 sovereign states--Wyn.junior (talk) 20:01, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
It is not neutral to suggest that there are 206 sovereign states. The number 206 is the number of entities that meet the standard for inclusion for this list. That's a different thing.
If you want an alphabetical rendering of the entities on this list, go to the top of the first column and click the little arrow symbol. Kahastok talk 20:16, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
This is better but still doesn't fully put the list in alphabetical order.--Wyn.junior (talk) 21:14, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
I would like to make two sections. The first section is going to be a number, very easy to read list of the 206.
==List of states by alphabetical order==
==List of states by United Nations membership==
--Wyn.junior (talk) 16:56, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
This is why we have sort buttons. If you don't like the sort buttons, I'm afraid that might have to be your problem. Kahastok talk 19:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
The sort button does not give you a complete numbered list fully in a row of the 206 states.--Wyn.junior (talk) 20:52, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Why do you need numbers specifically? If they are all in order, then the numbers shouldn't matter. As it will be just as easy to locate something based on A.B.C.D.E.F.G.H.I.J.K.L.M.N.O.P.Q.R.S.T.U.V.W.X.Y.Z as it will be if it was 1.2.3.4.5.6.7.8.9.10.11.12.13.14.15.16.17.18.19.20.21.22.23.24.25.26. In fact it should be easier, since you already know the name of what you are looking for, and will (hopefully) know how to spell it. Therefore, you know to go straight to I, then to the second letter, N (say if you are looking for "India"). To number them will not help in locating anything. It will only create a meaningless connection between an inconsequential number and a single entry on a line, a connection that will not exist outside of the list. Would you also number a list of fruit? NO! because it is pointless! If Apple were to be number 1. or number 10. or orange were to be number 10. or number 1. would not change anything about the fruit, and it would not add anything notable that did not already exist in such a list. - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:41, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
A person may want to know how many of each when sorting the contents. This is less the fact. Why wouldn't you want a simple numbered list showing the 206 instead of a remake of an Article that already exists?--Wyn.junior (talk) 21:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Because the number of entries, ... wait for it ... does not matter!
The article clearly states in the lede that there are 206 entries in the list. If someone wants to PROVE this, then they can bloody well count! It is really not worth disrupting the entire structure of the list to have some arbitrary numbers besides each entry just there for the sole purpose of having a visual representation of the total present within the list. With modern computing, it literally takes seconds to find out the number of entries in the list, and, failing having an actual computer, 206 is not that high a number to just to count inside one's own head.
Additionally, this list is hardly a remake of the Member states of the United Nations list article, there are several entries listed within it that are not part of the UN. This list just so happens to consist mainly of UN members as well, because (shockingly) all UN members are currently states! (Wow!)
Now, theoretically, were the UN to have a member that was absolutely not a state, we would simply not have it on this list (Imagine the EU joining the UN or something), this just so happens to not be the case currently, therefore the two lists do have a lot in common. What separates the two of them though is their criteria. This list is able to also include states that do not belong to the UN, the Member states of the United Nations article does not do this. - Wiz9999 (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Map needed

A world map is needed with each of the 206 sovereign states mapped out.--Wyn.junior (talk) 17:21, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

A number of these states have overlapping claims to territory, many others would be too small to see on any world-scale map. I like maps, but I don't think this article is the place for it. CMD (talk) 14:59, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
High quality mapping programs could allow overlapping states. A high quality mapping program could also create a map showing even the smallest of the 206 states.--Wyn.junior (talk) 18:02, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
This is an encyclopedia, not an atlas. See OpenStreetMap. Kahastok talk 18:37, 13 March 2019 (UTC)
An Encyclopedia provides summaries of knowledge, like a map with the 206 sovereign states.--Wyn.junior (talk) 19:43, 15 March 2019 (UTC)
No, a map is a good idea but not for this article. Even if divided into regional maps, mapping would take too much space for one article that has to be downloadable in reasonable time by people around the world who have slow connections. Compiling the information about the boundaries of contested claims would not be easy; I received a booklet in the 1970s about the U.S. which has a very large claim in the Pacific Ocean that overlaps a U.K. claim, but when I wrote later for an updated list I was sent travel brochures instead. Some national governments may believe that they're better off being quiet about ongoing claims because of risks of conflict and may not have those claims mappably detailed on their websites. So, if you have the information from reliable sourcing, that's wonderful and please add it somewhere, possibilities including Wikivoyage and Wikimedia Commons. See also world map. Nick Levinson (talk) 20:33, 23 March 2019 (UTC) (Corrected link: 20:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC))

British Indian Ocean Territory

User:Wiz9999 removed a note I had added concerning the fact that the International Court of Justice has issued an opinion to the effect that the United Kingdom’s administration of the territory is unlawful and that the United Kingdom’s separation of the territory from Mauritius was unlawful.

The list contains many notes to the effect that this or that state is not recognised by this or that state or by this or that many states etc. The most authoritive statement we have to go by as to the status of the territory in question is that the United Kingdom does not have legitimate sovereignty over it. That and many, many states have voted at the UN and made public statements to the effect that the sovereignty of the United Kingdom over this territory is not recognised and its administration of the territory is unlawful.

Should the list really make no mention of any of this? It seems rather inconsistent with the approach taken as regards the states listed to me. Frenchmalawi (talk) 02:10, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

No, because it is a territorial dispute of a dependent territory, not of the governing state itself. This should be covered by the following three articles instead: Dependent territory, List of sovereign states and dependent territories by continent, and List of territorial disputes. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:44, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
Let’s have a look for consistency User:Wiz999, under the heading “Further information on status and recognition of sovereignty”:
  • Antigua and Barbuda is a Commonwealth realm with 1 autonomous region, Barbuda.
  • Argentina is a federation of 23 provinces and 1 autonomous city.
  • Austria is a federation of nine states (Bundesländer).
  • Belgium is a federation divided into linguistic communities and regions.
  • Brazil, Bosnia, Canada, Comoros, Ethiopia, Fiji...too many others with notes to similar effect...I give up at ‘f’.
  • Mount Athos is an autonomous part of Greece that is jointly governed by the multinational "Holy Community" on the mountain and a civil governor appointed by the Greek government.
  • [various] is a ‘Commonwealth realm’ (a term with no official status whatsoever, largely popularized on WP)
  • Morocco claims sovereignty over Western Sahara and controls most of it, with the remainder controlled by the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic which also asserts sovereignty over the entire Western Sahara.

Morrocco is quite on point: Let’s paraphrase your words. ”No, because it is a territorial dispute of a dependent territory, not of the governing state itself.“ Morrocco claims that Western Sahara is its territory. That claim is not accepted by all. A note explaining the Moroccan position is included. Why would the fact that the UK claims sovereignty over BIOT not be included in just the same way?

  • Pakistan...Pakistan exercises control over certain portions of Kashmir, but has not officially annexed any of it, instead regarding it as a disputed territory.

Again, in a similar vein to Pakistan but this time even closer to BIOT because Pakistan administers a territory that - according to what’s written - it doesn’t claim to have annexed - the UK has not annexed BIOT either. But the UK, like Pakistan, asserts that it has sovereignty over the disputed territory in question.

  • Serbia contains two autonomous regions, Vojvodina and Kosovo and Metohija. The latter is under the de facto control of the Republic of Kosovo.

If there is indeed some principle of general application that you are defending in cutting out an explanation that the sovereignty of BIOT is disputed, I can’t even speculate on how the above statement is included.

  • Ukraine claims Crimea as an autonomous republic, and Sevastopol as a city with special status. However these have both been annexed by Russia.

Why’s this in there?

  • We have mentioned the territorial disputes affecting countries and territories but when it comes to the UK, we simply report the position of the UK. As if Wikipedia was a spokesperson for the UK. No question about its sovereignty is raised. Despite the fact that its position as regards BIOT must be one, if not the, clearest cut case of disputed sovereignty.
  • United States: It also disputes sovereignty over the following territories: Bajo Nuevo Bank, Serranilla Bank....

Do tell us why this is included? I think there is a lot of inconsistency. I also think there is a failure to identify what’s important and take care to ensure it is included. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Frenchmalawi (talk • contribs) 00:41, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the need for consistency, and have posted thoughts on related issues in the section below. It is not a simple task however. On the above, I agree with Wiz9999 that the note on BIOT falls outside the scope of this article. Dependent territories are included here due to their being within the sovereignty of a state, but by the laws of that state not being part of it. On reflection, I agree with you on the Morocco note, it could be reworded to be a more simple note on the breakaway state, similar to Somaliland. Pakistan is a sui generis case, which other editors are more familiar with than I am. What is notable (as best I understand it) is that Pakistan is unique as a controlling power in officially regarding the area as somewhere with an unsettled status, whereas most disputes make specific claims about what a territory is. On Serbia, autonomous areas are included throughout the article, with the note on Kosovo 1) clarifying that the autonomous status for one area is not the reality on the ground (but still allowing us to present the Serbian de jure situation), and 2) serving to note the existence of a breakaway state within what Serbia considers Serbia. On Ukraine, Crimea is included to note the autonomous status within Ukraine, with the Russia clarification serving to note that like in Serbia that this status is not the reality on the ground. On Sevastopol I agree with you its inclusion is inconsistent, and have noted that in the section below. Regarding Bajo Nuevo Bank and Serranilla Bank, they are similarly included due to being dependent territories per the United States, but with clarification that this is not the situation on the ground (both are controlled by other countries). In essence, information that falls under the existing criteria is included, but with notes where such information does not reflect the real-world situation. This isn't always clearcut however, as the world is not clearcut, and wording can be difficult. CMD (talk) 05:22, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
@Frenchmalawi: the UK has not annexed BIOT either This is an unsubstantiated statement. All evidence suggests that the UK actually HAS de facto control (i.e. annexed) the BIOT. If you have some kind of evidence to suggest that the UK is not in control of this territory, then I would kindly ask that you present it for us. Seeing as much of your argument rests on this unsubstantiated principal that the UK is not in control of BIOT but merely claims it (as the USA claims Bajo Nuevo Bank and Serranilla Bank), then this would be critical to a consideration your current argument. The comparisons to Kashmir in India/Pakistan, Kosovo in Serbia/Kosovo, and Crimea in Ukraine/Russia are completely different as these territories are autonomous regions which are not only controlled by the latter state, but are wholly integrated into it. This is unlike the BIOT which is a dependent territory of the UK and thus not integrated within it. You have raised a good point about Bajo Nuevo Bank and Serranilla Bank being dependent territories of the USA and not actually a part of the state of the USA, neither are they controlled by it. Thus these two 'claims' do not really belong on this list, and I will remove them both now.
@Chipmunkdavis: With regards to Morocco, SADR, and Western Sahara, the situation is far more complex than you have described. As the Polisario front that governs the SADR is not a break away state from Morocco, as you suggested (akin to Somalia/Somaliland), but that Western Sahara was a colony of Spain which was in fact invaded by Morocco and Mauritania after Spain had abandoned it. The SADR claims to be the successor state to this colony, now that it is in control of the former Mauritanian occupied lands, and in many ways it has more in common with the Pakistan/India/Kashmir case than the BIOT case. - Wiz9999 (talk) 13:30, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
I didn't describe the situation, I noted an alternative wording structure that would work for it, addressing Frenchmalawi's concern while still containing the pertinent information. The wording works for both. (At any rate the situation comparison is not so clear cut; Somaliland also claims to be a successor state to a colony.) CMD (talk) 13:39, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Hmmm, good point about Somaliland. Ok, I see where you are coming from on that one. I am not sure if people from either SADR or Morocco would agree with that view of SADR being a "breakaway state" of Morocco itself, as opposed to a "breakaway state" of Western Sahara or Spain, but I see the logic in your argument/description. - Wiz9999 (talk) 15:07, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
The point on Somaliland was a mostly irrelevant aside. The focus on the word "breakaway state" also seems beside the point. The Somaliland information in the Somalia extent, "while the territory of Somaliland has formed an unrecognised de facto state", doesn't use the term "breakaway state" anywhere. CMD (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Wiz seemed to think I was suggesting that the UK does not administer BIOT. Of course, I never suggested any such thing. Pakistan claims sovereignty over the Kashmir territory mentioned. It also administers it. But it hasn’t integrated the territory into the Pakistani state. The UK claims sovereignty over BIOT. It also administers it. It hasn’t integrated BIOT into the UK. That’s the comparison. It hasn’t annexed it tot eh UK; it’s a territory the UK claims sovereignty over. But anyway, that’s rather of point. CMD:

  • ”Dependent territories are included here due to their being within the sovereignty of a state, but by the laws of that state not being part of it.” Sure. So if they are included but there is a sovereignty dispute about an entire dependent territory, why would it not be mentioned? Where there is a sovereignty dispute about any other entity listed, the sovereignty dispute is mentioned. Various examples from Korea to Israel to SADR etc. Where is the consistency?
  • Re Pakistan, it’s not a unique position. It’s basically the same position as BIOT. See my remarks to Wiz above. Unintegrated territory over which there is a sovereignty dispute. No two sets of facts are identical, but any difference is marginal at most.
  • Why is there no statement concerning the ‘break away’, ‘taken away’ or ‘unlawfully administered’ status of the islands comprising BIOT in the Mauritius entry? Mauritius claims an entire territory that is listed as a dependent territory of another state.

Separate to my concerns about the inconsistency re BIOT, why is there no mention in the list of the disputed status of the regions of Antarctica? As an example, the UK’s purported sovereignty over part of Antarctica has very limited recognition. But it’s included as if it’s universally accepted. Seriously, is this list concerned with listing jurisdictions with sovereignty or not? What’s with all the multiple standards and approaches. It may not be easy, but it’s really not that complicated. (Separately, I sometimes struggle with editing on an iPad - don’t know where tildas are so forgive absence of signature please).— Preceding unsigned comment added by French Malawi (talk • contribs) 01:01, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding consistency. First, there are two types of disputes mentioned. The first is dispute over the very existence of a state, claimed despite that state de facto existing. For example the Koreas, SADR, other breakaway states. These should be mentioned because they are directly relevant to the list, and explain why they may or may not appear on similar lists elsewhere. As BIOT is not a state, I don't think it fits this.
The second dispute is of smaller territory. There are far too many of these to include here, but the ones I think should be included are where they have an impact on the de facto status of an area, as in it is not controlled by the state mentioned in the extent.
The difference between Pakistan's territories and BIOT is that officially, Pakistan itself treats the territory as disputed. The UK does not do this, regarding BIOT as fully British territory. It's a huge difference in domestic legal position. The text within Pakistan's extent is shows Pakistan's position, not that of any other state, just as the text within the UK extent shows the UK's position. (The footnote in Pakistan should probably be removed too though.)
Mauritius to my understanding does not consider BIOT a dependent territory, an autonomous territory, or part of a federal system, so it is not mentioned there, much as Crimea is not mentioned in the Russian entry.
The Antarctica disputes are also not included because disputes in general are not included.
Sadly this list is quite complicated, although you are correct we should cut down on multiple standards and approaches. I also feel the Israel extent may be too long (brought it up below), but it's a hard one to reword. On Western Sahara, I agreed with you above and suggested a more consistent wording. CMD (talk) 02:05, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
”The first is dispute over the existence of a state...” We are discussing a dispute over the existence of a territory. A territory that is featured on the list. Why would that dispute not be mentioned? It’s inconsistent to list disputes over one type of jurisdiction listed on the page (a state) and not over another type of jurisdiction listed on teh page (a dependent territory). For all the talk of matters being complicated, this is very simple and obvious. It’s indefensible and no logical defense of the position has been put forward yet.
”These should be mentioned because they are directly relevant to the list”. Again, indeed. The exact same applies to dependent territories. They are on the list. Disputes concerning their sovereignty are equally relevant. There’s no consistency in logic here.
”The second dispute is of smaller territory. There are far too many of these to include here, but the ones I think should be included are where they have an impact on the de facto status of an area, as in it is not controlled by the state mentioned in the extent.” This has no logic. There are fewer dependent territories on the list than there are states. So how can it be said that there are too many sovereignty disputes concerning them when there are fewer than as between sovereignty states. Any way, this is totally arbitrary. How many such disputes are there that you feel it’s too many? And how can getting to a certain number make the information that is equally relevant to the list suddenly make it outside scope?
Mauritius considers BIOT - a dependent territory that has been included on the list so matters concerning its status are relevant to the list - to be part of its territory. Whether Mauritius considers it to be a regular part of its territory or that it should be a dependent territory of Mauritius is irrelevant. There is an active sovereignty dispute concerning an entire territory listed on the list. It should be mentioned there because BIOT is a dependent territory listed on the list (an important point, again to ape your words, is that this all directly relates to the list).
You are not engaging with the above logic which is identical in respect of Antarctica. You are choosing to list dependent territories - whether they should be there or not is a good question but once it’s chosen to include them, the corollary of that decision is that the sovereignty considerations that apply to states and are reflected on the state must be reflected in respect of dependent territories on the list.
It’s not complicated at all. A decision to list dependent territories on the list has been made. It flows from that that sovereignty disputes concerning dependent territories must be treated in exactly the same way as applies to states. Anything else is double standards and illogical. After all, this all relates to jurisdictions listed on the list. It’s that simple.

The Abyei Area

I have restored the Abyei Area as a bulleted polity under both the Sudan and South Sudan entries in the list. It is a non-state polity created by international agreement, in which the parent state's sovereignty is limited by treaty, the 2004 Protocol on the Resolution of the Abyei Conflict. It thus falls in the same category as Hong Kong, Aland, Svalbard, ect. The territory dispute is irrelevant when considering its inclusion as a bulleted entry in the list.XavierGreen (talk) 17:54, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Noted, your new wording is a great improvement. CMD (talk) 02:02, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Palmyra Atoll

Right, I am sick of this constant back and forth about this bullet point. It is expressly included here since it is listed on the dependent territories page. This is consistent with the current list's criteria, which states: Dependent territories of another state, as well as areas that exhibit many characteristics of dependent territories according to the dependent territory page when describing what should be listed as a bullet point. It must be removed from that page before it would be permitted to be removed from this page. The criteria is clear on this. Those that wish this dependent territory delisted from this article please take your quarrel over there. - Wiz9999 (talk) 02:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I have done so, using the source you provided above. CMD (talk) 02:54, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
@Chipmunkdavis: I don't know why I didn't look at this before, but here: [1] - Is this to be ignored? - Wiz9999 (talk) 11:55, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Not to be ignored, to be considered in conjunction with other sources. CMD (talk) 13:07, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
This conversation has been continued here: Talk:Dependent territory#Jan Mayen and Palmyra Atoll. - Wiz9999 (talk) 16:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

The State of Palestine and the Republic of Kosovo

I do not think that it is in conformity with NPOV to classify the State of Palestine with the 194 generally recognized sovereign states (i.e., the 193 UN member states plus Vatican City, whose sovereignty is not disputed by anyone--crucially, not even by Italy, which is the only state that could claim Vatican City as part of its territory, and which recognized the Holy See's sovereignty over Vatican City in the Lateran Treaty of 1929). The State of Palestine applied for membership in the UN, and its application was rejected; the UN converted the PLO's status as an "observer entity" to an "observer state" status for the State of Palestine as a consolation prize. While over 100 UN members recognize the State of Palestine as a sovereign state, these are disproportionately developing countries, and it is not recognized by any of the G7 nations, nor, indeed, by most large, developed economies. Moreover, the State of Palestine does not have a unified government that rules over its two, noncontiguous, territories (Gaza and the West Bank).

I also fail to see how it complies with NPOV to treat the State of Palestine differently from the Republic of Kosovo, which has never been rejected for UN membership (nor applied for it) and whose sovereignty is recognized by over 100 UN members, including by all seven G7 countries (US, UK, Germany, Japan, France, Italy and Canada) plus Australia, Netherlands, Belgium, South Korea, Denmark, New Zealand, Austria and others, as well as by 23 out of the 28 members of the European Union. Palestine and Kosovo are very similar cases, and, if anything, Kosovo has a better claim to general international recognition than Palestine. I recommend that both countries be treated similarly, as .

I believe that it is an exercise in POV to avert one's eyes from the facts and pretend that the State of Palestine (or the Republic of Kosovo, for that matter) is a generally recognized sovereign state. Let's classify it as what it is: a de facto sovereign state with substantial, but not general, international recognition. This description applies not only to Palestine and Kosovo, but also to Taiwan and Western Sahara, but would exclude de facto states with little or no international recognition such as Northern Cyprus, Abkhazia, Somaliland, etc. The recognition status of such de facto states is nuanced, and their classification should be as well.

I'm pinging @User:Wiz9999 and @User:Chipmunkdavis, but welcome comments from all interested editors.

AuH2ORepublican (talk) 19:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi, this is pure list with details, why do suggest that some cases are not tretaed "equally"? At every entity, if there is a dispute, it is indicated. Does any of it harm the criteria of inclusion? Does any of them not to have any degree of sovereignty? Cheers(KIENGIR (talk) 20:48, 14 May 2019 (UTC))
Hello, KIENGIR. I can appreciate your point, but it's actually two lists, not one, and I think that there is a big difference between (i) being listed alongside France and Argentina with a note explaining how some countries don't recognize you and (ii) being listed alongside Niue (which isn't even de facto sovereign) and South Ossetia with a note explaining how some countries do recognize you. Palestine and Kosovo should not be treated differently, and my suggestion--grouping Kosovo, Palestine, Taiwan and Western Sahara on a second list for de facto states that are not generally recognized but that have substantial international recognition, and leaving only the de facto states with little or no international recognition in the third list--would list Kosovo and Palestine alongside similarly situated de facto states instead of grouping them with states with dissimilar levels of recognition such as Japan on the one hand and Transnitria on the other hand. Best regards, AuH2ORepublican (talk) 21:29, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

The question we have to ask is, what change in the criteria dividing the two lists do you propose?

At present, the top part of the list presents UN member and observer states (the observers being Palestine and the Vatican), the bottom half presents entities that meet the selection criteria for the list that are not UN member or observer states.

If you wish to change the split, you will need to provide a better criterion to split the list with. That criterion will have to be simple to understand and objectively justifiable (we can't just pretend that Palestine is not a UN observer or that Kosovo is) without original research, while achieving the aim of of the split - which is to preserve the neutrality of the list by splitting off the generally-unrecognised entities from the generally recognised states. The current split achieves all this.

And when doing this, bear in mind that there are pages and pages and pages of archives discussing this precise point in minute detail, and that for those of us who participated in that discussion, it is likely that persuasive new argument will be required before we unpick the compromise that was reached. Kahastok talk 21:41, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

I have no reason to doubt that a lot of work and discussion went into the decision to split sovereign states between those that are UN members or observers and those that do not have an official UN designation, and I can appreciate that "being within the UN system" appears at first glance to be a reasonable bright-line rule. That being said, "being within the UN system" is not really a category of sovereign state, and being a UN observer state does not, by itself, denote general international recognition of sovereignty. This is proven by the fact that Vatican City and the State of Palestine are both "observer states" of the UN, but the former is a state whose sovereignty is not disputed by anyone and who would be a UN member but for its preference to remain as an observer (as Switzerland did from 1946 to 2002) and the latter is a disputed state whose sovereignty is not recognized by 11 of the 15 countries with the highest GDP (among the top 15 economies, only China, India, Russia and Mexico recognize Palestine) and whose application for UN membership was rejected just a few years ago. And while observer status does allow the State of Palestine to participate in UN specialized agencies, please note that the Republic of Kosovo, which has not even applied for UN membership or for observer status, is a member of two UN specialized agencies (plus that the Cook Islands and Niue, which are states in free association with New Zealand and thus are not even de facto sovereign, are members of 8 and 5 UN specialized agencies, respectively). It is by no means "neutral" to group Palestine with generally recognized states while excluding Kosovo (which, by the way, is recognized by 9 of the 15 highest-GDP countries).
So what I'm suggesting is that sovereign states that are neither UN members nor whose sovereignty is undisputed be kept off the first list (and thus aren't generally recognized as sovereign states), and that the states that don't qualify for the first list be divided among (i) those that are de facto sovereign states with substantial international recognition of sovereignty (say, de facto or de jure recognition by 25 or more UN member states, a bar that easily would be cleared by Kosovo, Palestine, Taiwan and Western Sahara, and not approached by any other de facto sovereign state), (ii) those that are de facto sovereign states but with recognition by fewer than, say, 25 UN members (currently Abkhazia, Artzakh (formerly Nagorno-Karabakh), Northern Cyprus, Somaliland, South Ossetia and Transnitria, none of which has been recognized by more than a handful of UN members), and (iii) states in free association, which are neither de facto nor de jure sovereign but which have the ability to enter into international treaties (Niue and the Cook Islands). These divisions would be no more arbitrary than is dividing states based on whether they are "within the UN system," and such groupings would be based on information provided by reliable sources, not through original research. It wouldn't be perfect, but at least it would avoid grouping Palestine with Italy and Australia while grouping Kosovo with South Ossetia and Artzakh, which is, in my opinion, a violation of NPOV. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 23:43, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
Being an observer state means there was a vote by the UNGA to make an entity an observer state. This is a clear position, unlike woolly notions of 'general sovereignty' and 'de facto sovereignty'. Picking a number like 25 without a good body of sources doing so would be OR (and Taiwan doesn't even meet this), and is far more arbitrary than something simpler and easily sourced. It also doesn't depend on individual opinions about whether X should be grouped with Y, as any system through which we pick a number would be. Further, as I mentioned on Talk:List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe, we should try to minimise splits in the list, as splits defeat somewhat the point of a list while increasing the chances the arrangement is based on POV. CMD (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Being accepted as a UN observer state is not tantamount to recognition of sovereignty by the UN members. Please note that each of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council has a veto right over any issue of importance, and that three permanent members of the Security Council (he U.S., UK and France) have refused to recognize the State of Palestine while another permanent member of the Security Council (China) has refused to recognize Vatican City. So the fact that Palestine, but not Kosovo, is a UN observer state is not much on which one can hang one's hat. I know that it's preferable to find a bright-line rule, but such rule becomes arbitrary and POV if it is contingent upon treating UN observer states as if they were UN member states. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 00:57, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Yes, now I realized there are in fact two lists. Well, I support your idea because it is based on solid, precise evaluation and seeking the utmost accuracy of the contemporary legal situation and their fair and consistent evaluation. I am not sure if I can participate all the discussion, if there is a final form to be voted or accepted, ping me in to supervise it before any possible application, but I emphasize, you have my initial support! Best Regards(KIENGIR (talk) 09:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC))
Being a UN member is not tantamount to recognition by UN members either. However, both are tantamount to recognition by the UN, which is why it is used. CMD (talk) 10:59, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
The UN had accepted the PLO as an observer entity (as "sole representative of the Palestinian people"), and when the State of Palestine claimed sovereignty and applied for UN membership, the UN rejected the application for membership but transferred the PLO's observer status to the State of Palestine. The fact that the UN preferred the State of Palestine to participate in proceedings as an observer state instead of having the PLO continue to participate as an observer entity does not constitute recognition of the State of Palestine as a sovereign state.
The State of Palestine's sovereignty over its claimed territory has always been more aspirational than factual, and while it has made great strides during the past few decades, it still has not reached general international recognition, as evidenced by the fact that it has received recognition by only 4 of the 15 highest-GDP countries (neither the U.S., Germany, the United Kingdom, Japan, France, Canada, South Korea, Italy, Spain, Australia nor Mexico has recognized the State of Palestine) and that the UN rejected its application for membership. I humbly submit that the State of Palestine should not be grouped with generally recognized sovereign states until its international recognition has come to fruition and is not merely potential, because an encyclopedia should report as fact what has happened, no what people think that will happen eventually. I also humbly submit that the State of Palestine, along with Kosovo, Taiwan and Western Sahara, more properly would be described as de facto sovereign states with substantial, but not general, international recognition instead of being grouped with de facto states tha are recognized by not more than five UN nember states. I strongly believe that it is consistent with NPOV to provide more nuanced categories in order to avoid grouping nuanced cases such as Palestine and Kosovo where they don't belong. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 11:50, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
Participating as an "observer state" is participating as a sovereign state. This is why it was such a big deal when Palestine was given that status (a status previously held by some former members). (The 2011 application for membership was never actually rejected, as it was never voted upon.) An Observer is regarded as a state that can sign multilateral treaties, and it has used this, for example by joining the ICC. Unprecedentedly to my knowledge, this year Palestine is leading the G77. We are not reporting what might happen in the future, or what we think will happen, but what has already happened.
I don't understand how you can argue both that Palestine has only an aspirational rather than factual control, but is a de facto state. Factual control is by definition what de facto statehood would imply. Nor do I understand why if you're basing this on recognition, especially by high-GDP countries, you group Taiwan with states with far more recognition than it has (and with more than the 0 high-GDP countries that recognise Taiwan), with there being a much larger difference between the recognitions of Kosovo and Taiwan than Taiwan and Somaliland.
You seem to base NPOV on where you think states should or should not belong. I do not think this is a good basis for determining NPOV. Adding more categories based on what we feel is the correct nuance is asking for more arguments about what the nuances should be. CMD (talk) 13:09, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

The UN "didn't vote upon" Palestine's application for membership when statements by members of the Security Council made clear that approval would not be granted, so Palestine's supporters moved to table the vote; you can boast that "it wasn't formally rejected" if you wish, but the implication was clear. And if being an observer state was such a big deal, why didn't Palestine request to be made an observer state?

I never said that the State of Palestine aspires to have control over its claimed territory in the West Bank and Gaza; I said that it aspires to be recognized as a sovereign state, but that it hasn't reached that goal yet. Israel has permitted the State of Palestine to have control over the West Bank and Gaza (except when it doesn't), and control by the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, respectively, is consistent with that of other de facto states.

As for Taiwan, you should know better than to take the number of countries that officially have diplomatic relations with the Republic of China (Taiwan) as the number that recognizes its sovereignty. Given that the Republic of China claims that recognition of its sovereignty implies recognition that the government of the Republic of China is the rightful government of all of China (including the mainland), and that the People's Republic of China has a firm policy of withdrawing diplomatic relations from any state that officially recognizes the Republic of China's sovereignty, it should not surprise anyone that only a few countries have decided to spurn the People's Republic of China and officially recognize the Republic of China. But far more countries recognize Taiwan on a de facto basis and maintain informal governmental relations with its government. In fact, among the countries listed in the "Foreign relations of Taiwan" Wikipedia article as having "non-diplomatic, unofficial governmental relations" with the Republic of China are 14 of the 15 countries with the highest GDP (all but, you guessed it, the People's Republic of China). That's pretty substantial recognition of Taiwan's status as a sovereign state, although it obviously falls far short of general international recognition (even further away than are Kosovo and Palestine). Here's the pertinent section of the "Foreign relations of Taiwan" Wikipedia article:

"Non-diplomatic representation See also: Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office

The ROC has non-diplomatic, unofficial governmental relations with the European Union and at least 47 states, recognising the PRC, that maintain "Economic, Trade and/or Cultural" (or similar) offices in Taiwan. These relations are not inter-governmental nor are they officially diplomatic or political. However, they have many of the functions usually assigned to actual embassies, including the processing of visas, cultural exchanges and to some extent, unofficial diplomatic and governmental exchanges.

For example, the American Institute in Taiwan functions as the United States' de facto embassy with the chairman and staff acting as unofficial government consulate officers who nevertheless perform duties that official embassies would undertake. Ireland does not maintain diplomatic relations with Taiwan and the Taipei Representative Office in Dublin has no diplomatic or political status, referring to UN Resolution 2758.[60]

Oceania (3 states) 

Australia
New Zealand
Papua New Guinea

Asia (12 states and 2 territories) 

Brunei
Hong Kong
India
Indonesia
Japan
South Korea
Macau
Malaysia
Mongolia
Myanmar
Philippines
Singapore
Thailand
Vietnam

Middle East (5 states) 

Israel
Jordan
Oman
Saudi Arabia
Turkey

Africa (2 states) 

Nigeria[61]
South Africa

Europe (18 states) 

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
Denmark
Finland
France
Germany
Hungary
Italy
Latvia
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Poland
Russia
Slovakia
Spain
Sweden
 Switzerland
United Kingdom

North America (3 states) 

Canada
Mexico
United States

South America (4 states) 

Argentina
Brazil
Chile
Peru

AuH2ORepublican (talk) 18:17, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

So, I suggest you might want to avoid writing walls of text in the future if you want people to read what you say?
This bit stood out:
We're not talking about Artsakh or Somaliland here. Over 70% of UN member states recognise Palestine as a sovereign state, and - the important point here - the UN treats it as a sovereign state. If this means that Palestine is not recognised as a sovereign state, then there are others in a similar position. For example, though both have clear majority recognition and UN status, neither Israel nor China are recognised as sovereign states by your standard.
You seem to try to dismiss the fact of majority recognition by citing only the largest economies. But I see no evidence that this is a valid thing to do. If you list the largest countries by population - equally legitimately - you reach the opposite conclusion.
I see nothing here that would persuade me that any change in this area is desirable. Kahastok talk 22:16, 15 May 2019 (UTC)
I am not 'boasting', I am correcting an inaccuracy. At any rate, Palestine did request to be an Observer state, which is why it is now an Observer state.
As for Taiwan, I am not taking diplomatic relations as recognition of sovereignty, I'm taking recognitions of sovereignty as recognitions of sovereignty. Unofficial relations are explicitly not official, which is what a recognition of sovereignty would be. Even China has an unofficial relationship with Taiwan.
Again, it would be useful if there were sources supporting the relevance of unofficial relations to general recognition. CMD (talk) 15:29, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Cook Islands and Niue (sovereignty dispute column)

The "sovereignty dispute" column's inclusions criterion is:

This column indicates whether or not a state is the subject of a major sovereignty dispute. Only states whose entire sovereignty is disputed by another state are listed.

Given that, the IP making this edit needs to provide some evidence that the status of the Cook Islands and Niue is actively disputed by some other state.

To be clear, this is not the same as their not being recognised as sovereign states. There are numerous examples internationally of states that are not formally recognised without the existence of any dispute, and these are not generally listed here because this column lists sovereignty disputes, not cases of lack of recognition.

(What you'll actually find is that most of the work accepts that the Cook Islands and Niue are whatever they say they are and that whether that amounts to formal sovereignty or something else is up to them.) Kahastok talk 09:54, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Since they're Dependent territories, therefore, They're not States. So Yes, they have no Sovereignty. 2607:FEA8:F420:3DD1:6166:9E39:EDC5:98F9 (talk) 22:45, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Information in the extent

Bringing a conversation in a few edit summaries here. Many items have been added to the extent that do not fall within the previously discussed inclusion criteria. The criteria, listed on the page, is:

  • The extent to which a state's sovereignty is recognised internationally,
  • Membership in the European Union,
  • Any dependencies, if applicable, which are generally not part of the territory of the sovereign state,
  • The federal structure of the state,
  • Any autonomous areas inside the territory of the sovereign state,
  • Any situations where one person is the Head of State of more than one state, and
  • Any governments in exile recognised by at least one state.

Remaining additions that fall outside these, and which are inconsistently applied for some countries but not others, include:

  • Specifics on how Turkey deals with the Cypriot Government, which is not included for other disputed states,
  • The official designation of Italy's autonomous regions, something not included for other autonomous areas, (aside from perhaps Chile, which may also need looking into,)
  • The inclusion of Sevastopol as a special city of Ukraine, while no other cities are mentioned outside of federative structures and even Ukraine's other special status city isn't included, and
  • The inclusion of Palmrya Atoll, despite that being a full part of the United States.

Due to their lack of relation to the points mentioned, and their arbitrary application to only one country each, I don't think this information belongs here. They fall outside the scope of the article, and should be removed.

There are other current inclusions which may be worth discussing:

  • Terminology for the countries is included in some extents. I feel this information should be included (at least in some cases) as it helps to identify the states on the list, but there is inconsistency in presentation, with some information appearing directly in the extents (eg. Denmark, Netherlands) and some appearing in footnotes (eg. Argentina, both Congos, East Timor).
  • China, Israel, and Vatican City have quite long extents that may go beyond what is needed. It is tricky however, as all are quite complex situations, and the information may be needed to explain "the extent to which a state's sovereignty is recognised internationally". (Taiwan and Palestine also have quite long extents, but are in the second section where extents are understandably longer in general.)
  • Some footnotes also seem superfluous and arbitrary, such as the one relating to the claims of both Koreas, the one covering Aland Island, and the one on Kashmir. Other extents have information that may be better suited for footnotes, such as the legal status of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan, or may like other points discussed not fall within the scope of this article, such as the specifics of Mount Athos.

Thoughts on all these matters, or others, are welcome. CMD (talk) 04:49, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree with you that we should be keeping this concise and succinct. This page is certainly not intended to be a detailed description of every dispute in existence. This is a list, and we have articles covering those other details. One line with a link, and restricted to the most major, should be sufficient in most cases. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 08:09, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
@Chipmunkdavis: I will respond to each of your points bellow on why I have been such a stickler for the wording used in each entry:
  • Specifics on how Turkey deals with the Cypriot Government, which is not included for other disputed states, - I will save this one for later...
  • The official designation of Italy's autonomous regions, something not included for other autonomous areas, (aside from perhaps Chile, which may also need looking into,) - The official terms used by these states for internal purposes is relevant when discussing potentially confusing dependent territories. It can lead to confusion in understanding, as is evident in my comments about the next two statements below.
  • The inclusion of Sevastopol as a special city of Ukraine, while no other cities are mentioned outside of federative structures and even Ukraine's other special status city isn't included, and - The term "special status city" is an internal designation of Ukraine, it does not relate to a city level division, but a federal level division. The federal "City of Sevastopol" is not a part of the rest of the "Autonomous Republic of Crimea", they are two separate first level administrative divisions. When Russia annexed Crimea (the peninsula) from Ukraine, both the federal units of the "Autonomous Republic of Crimea" and the "City of Sevastopol" were annexed, not just the republic of crimea.
  • The inclusion of Palmrya Atoll, despite that being a full part of the United States. - Palmyra Atoll is most certainly NOT a full part of the United States. It may be constitutionally linked to it (having the official status of an 'Incorporated Unorganised' territory), which stands in contrast to most of the other uninhabited USA islands (which have a status of an 'Unincorporated Unorganised' territory) which are not directly constitutionally linked to the USA. However, the distinction between these terms/concepts is unique to the USA, and does not really have a bearing on the concept of a 'dependent territory'. Besides, the territory in question (Palmyra Atoll) is still listed on the United States Minor Outlying Islands list and it is included on the Dependent territory#United States list, which is directly a part of this article's criteria for inclusion as a bullet point sub-entry, as noted in the last lines of List of sovereign states#Criteria for inclusion. Generally, what is considered to be a part of the USA's internal federal structure is only the 50 states, and the federal District of Columbia, Palmyra Atoll is a part of neither of these.
I have other arguments that I could make about inclusion of the Abyei Area and Sudan/South Sudan, but I am prepared to let that fight die, as the whole Abyei situation is really a very grey area in international politics overall.
With regards to the information in the Cyprus entry, naming disputes involving Greeks is a pretty common thing in this region (just look at the recent discussions around the renaming of North Macedonia (Talk page and this RfC). These naming conflicts have historically had a negative impact on the English wikipedia as a whole, inspiring the creation of WP:COMMONAME. It is just safer to describe the situation with the appropriate terms used by both sides of the debate. Besides, there is nothing more or less descriptive about what is said in the entry for Cyprus than the information described in China, Denmark, Israel, or the Netherlands. It would be best not to oversimplify the information provided in the 'further information' column of the list, as this will lead to countless arguments (as it has done historically). Is the information provided perfect? No, not by any stretch of the imagination, but it is a compromise due to years of back and forth about issues. There is room for improvement there, definitely, but it would problematic to just remove all the expanded information. - Wiz9999 (talk) 14:47, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
None of this response addresses the primary point, which is that these inclusions are arbitrary and inconsistent. The best way to handle potential arguments is to have a reason for what is included. The compromise established on this article was the criteria I mentioned in the first post here, not the assorted tidbits that have subsequently been added.
  • I'm familiar with Macedonia, but this has no bearing on the term the Turkish Government designates the Cypriot Government. There is no need to describe the situation at all, let alone consider the wording of the matter.
  • Italy has no dependent territories to be potentially confused about. And again, this inclusion is inconsistent.
  • I'm aware of that the special status city is a Ukrainian designation, I mentioned this in my comment and even pointed out there was one other. It is not a federal division, as Ukraine is not a federation. I'm also familiar with the Russian annexation of Sevastopol, but that has no bearing on the point, unless you feel that annexed territories should be included in this article, which I would disagree with.
  • Palmyra atoll is part of the United States. It is, as you note, incorporated. If as you claim incorporation "does not really have a bearing on the concept of a dependent territory", then what to you does? It underlies the very concept.
I would ask that you address the issues raised in my first post, which was primarily that they fall outside the inclusion criteria, and are arbitrarily included. (This was noted only in the Palmyra atoll response.) I would also like to know why you feel the information raised should be included. You've provided background on each topic, but not explained why that backgroud has a bearing on this article. CMD (talk) 16:00, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Reply:
  • I'm familiar with Macedonia, but this has no bearing on the term the Turkish Government designates the Cypriot Government. There is no need to describe the situation at all, let alone consider the wording of the matter. - It was meant as an example as to why a description of the terms matter. Regardless, I feel there is most definitely a need to explain to the reader why Turkey does not recognise Cyprus overall. The reader will not necessarily be aware of the Cyprus dispute, and the criteria listed in note 'd.' does specify that The extent to which a state's sovereignty is recognised internationally is important. Providing this clarification to the reader (that this lack of recognition is BECAUSE of the Cyprus dispute) is really not detracting from the statement about lack of recognition by Turkey. Also, if you truly feel that no clarification is needed regarding the situation then why did you not remove all the information past "Cyprus is not recognised by Turkey"? In your original edit you removed the highly relevant link to the Cyprus dispute, but left the information about recognition of Northern Cyprus. To me that is double standards if you are claiming that "there is no need to describe the situation at all", to which I disagree anyway. With regards to the wording, I still feel it is relevant, as it is not the only place on the list that describes 'unique' terms/nomenclature (see China, Denmark, Israel, or the Netherlands as I stated before and also Russia and ROC/Taiwan).
  • Italy has no dependent territories to be potentially confused about. And again, this inclusion is inconsistent. - No it doesn't. However, Italy is not the only places that describes internally unique terms (see China, Denmark, Israel, the Netherlands, Russia, the USA, etc.)
  • I'm aware of that the special status city is a Ukrainian designation, I mentioned this in my comment and even pointed out there was one other. It is not a federal division, as Ukraine is not a federation. I'm also familiar with the Russian annexation of Sevastopol, but that has no bearing on the point, unless you feel that annexed territories should be included in this article, which I would disagree with. - I never said that annexed territories should be included in this list, I simply feel it is disingenuous to imply Russia's annexation of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea without having annexed Sevastopol as well (you are right about my usage of "federal division" here being incorrect earlier, since what I meant was "first level administrative division" in lieu of that term). Honestly, I feel we shouldn't mention the annexation of either of these two entities without describing the situation with Donetsk and Luhansk as well, as Crimea is just a part of this wider overall russophone conflict with Russia. I actually believe, upon further thought over this entry, that it should be re-worded to better describe the fact that this is an Autonomous region of Ukraine which is a separate concept to the dispute issues.
  • Palmyra atoll is part of the United States. It is, as you note, incorporated. If as you claim incorporation "does not really have a bearing on the concept of a dependent territory", then what to you does? It underlies the very concept. - Inclusion on this list (Dependent territory) is what I constitute a 'dependent territory' for the purposes of this article, as that is what is specified by the criteria. Entries on that list must satisfy the following statement: A dependent territory, dependent area or dependency is a territory that does not possess full political independence or sovereignty as a sovereign state yet remains politically outside the controlling state's integral area. of which Palmyra Atoll does (as it is not a part of the 50 states, nor the D.C.), thus it is included on that list, hence it is included on this list. If you really wish for it to be removed from this list, then I would suggest you go and argue for its removal from that list instead, as these bullet point entries in this list are based on the dependent territory list/article. "Incorporated" from a US internal legal concept is different from actual incorporation of a state by another state as a concept of international politics (See Incorporated town and Unincorporated area#United States, and yes I am aware that we are not discussing towns here but the idea of US legal incorporation verses unincorporation here is equivalent between small towns as it is for territories) For example, on the Russian Annexation of Crimea article, the following statement is found in the lead: Russia formally incorporated Crimea as two federal subjects of the Russian Federation with effect from 18 March 2014. Such usage can also be found reflected in sources [2] - Wiz9999 (talk) 06:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Also, with respects to Palmyra Atoll, see this: Insular area - Wiz9999 (talk) 07:15, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
  • If you want to include information to describe why Turkey does not recognise Cyprus, that's a different argument. It however does not support the inclusion of what the Turkish Government calls Cyprus, which does not explain the lack of recognition to the reader at all. (It is an effect, not a cause.) As for the recognition of Northern Cyprus, that is a direct statement regarding sovereign state recognition. I can see the case for inclusion for that, which you seem to be arguing, but as noted, that case does not apply to the information that I did remove. The other examples of unique nomenclature could also be discussed (and I even raised some of them in the opening post), but at any rate they are about English usage, something that the specific Turkish Governmental term for the Cypriot Government is not.
  • None of the examples you give describe internally unique terms. Some of them use the terms, but that's not at all the same thing, and none of them use them for autonomous territories. (Israel's extent doesn't even discuss its subdivisions at all.)
  • Your further thought is right on point. The Crimea information is listed because of its being an Autonomous region of Ukraine. It is not listed due to the "overall russophone conflict". This article does not and should not try to cover territorial disputes.
  • You are correct again that Russia incorporated Crimea. That is why within their law Crimea is part of Russia, and not a Russian dependent territory or something else. It is part of Russia's integral area. The same is true for US incorporated territories. Just as in your Russia example, the US "incorporated" Palmyra Atoll into the United States. It is probably true that it should be removed from the Dependent Territory article, and it has been removed from that article multiple times before. However, you are incorrect that this article is based on that one, this article (like all articles) is based upon WP:Reliable sources. I would very much appreciate any source which discusses how "Incorporated from a US internal legal concept is different from actual incorporation of a state by another state as a concept of international politics". CMD (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
See here for the following criteria for this article: Dependent territories of another state, as well as areas that exhibit many characteristics of dependent territories according to the dependent territory page. That is why this article is based on the dependent territory article. It is blatantly stated in the criteria. This source [3] explains why an "insular area" (of which Palmyra Atoll is a part) is not a part of the US states nor is it a part of any federal district, and that it is just a territory. But you really should take your argument about this entity at this point to the dependent territory page instead, as I will not consider the removal of Palmyra Atoll from this article until it is removed from there, due to the aforementioned criteria. - Wiz9999 (talk) 18:53, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Wiz, that source literally states "incorporated territory...of which only one territory exists currently, Palmyra Atoll, in which the United States Congress has applied the full corpus of the United States Constitution as it applies in the several States. Incorporation is interpreted as a perpetual state. Once incorporated, the Territory can no longer be de-incorporated." Territories have a long history of being part of the United States, despite not being part of states or a federal district. A great deal of the country was at one point part of a territory. Your restriction of the United States to its states and D.C. is incorrect. (And regarding what you will consider, this is something you are trying to add, not some long-standing part of the content.) CMD (talk) 01:21, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

What reason is there to include dependencies that in an article about sovereign states? In particular the U.S. unincorporated territories (except American Samoa) have no legal personalities. (That is, they cannot enter into contracts or have standing in courts.) TFD (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

The extent is primarily to provide information that may relate to sovereignty, and dependencies are relevant in that regard due to not being part of sovereign states despite falling under their sovereignty. Issues impacting sovereign states may or may not impact their dependencies at the same time. There is also the consideration of how other sources treat the matter, and how readers may use the page. The article title uses "sovereign states" as its a clear and definable term, but most people would refer to the entries here as countries (List of countries redirects here), and in many lists of countries some or all of these dependencies are included. (Earlier versions of this article did so too.) The way they are currently included makes it clear that they are not sovereign states, but still allows a user looking for them to find them.
The point on some US territories is understood, but I'm unsure of the benefits of using legal personalities as a benchmark here. Does the concept stretch to the legal systems of all relevant countries? I would rather the leave the US islands in than carve out a specific exemption for them. (Open to good sources on the matter of course!) CMD (talk) 16:55, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
The entries are included for the sake of convenience to the reader. There have also been arguments back and forth historically on this article for the inclusion of one or more vague dependent territories as an entry line on its own. Including them, in this way as bullet points, within their parent state's entry creates a space for them to still be listed, but with their subservience to the parent state shown. There is another article that also lists the dependent territories as entries in their own right located here: List of sovereign states and dependent territories by continent. The reason why uninhabited U.S. unincorporated territories are included in the US line, each as a bullet point, is because they are listed here (Dependent territory) as individual entries. Also, the fact that "list of countries" redirects here is largely irrelevant to this article, as its clearly stated within the article that entries are included because they are "sovereign states" not because they are "countries". Entry's inclusion is based on their level/status of sovereignty, not "countryness". Dependent territories form a part of the sovereignty hierarchical structure, thus their relevancy, but this is not to say that they are "sovereign" in their own right just that they are not entirely "un-sovereign" either. This is regardless of how 'country-like' they may or may not 'feel' (i.e. there will be little argument for Midway Atoll being it's own "country", but its level of sovereignty is equivalent to that of American Samoa from a legal perspective). - Wiz9999 (talk) 06:29, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
The fact that "list of countries" redirects here is highly relevant. (As is that it was the original title.) It is the reason that, as you yourself say, "arguments back and forth historically on this article for the inclusion of one or more vague dependent territories as an entry line on its own". CMD (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, but it is clearly a problematic title! Hence the article was moved to something far more verifiable (sovereignty). That old title no longer governs the content of this article and the now unimportant redirect can simply be directed to something more appropriate if need be. I will not bend this entire article to accommodate the vague concept of "countryness" for the sake of a redirect that could easily be directed elsewhere, like Member states of the United Nations, which would satisfy most reader's idea of what a "country" is. - Wiz9999 (talk) 19:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
With respect to Palmyra Atoll, the closest parallel is probably the integrated external territories of Australia: Norfolk, Cocos, and Christmas islands. They're legally "integrated" with Australia following referendums and acts of parliament, but are not part of any member state of the federation nor are they considered an "internal" territory like the Northern territory or the capital territory which are listed with the states for both government purposes and on Wikipedia. Because they all have populations, they're "organized" and get to vote for representatives whose main constituency is the internal territory they're closest to, but there is a clear distinction between the two types of territories. There used to be a third type, Norfolk island was organized but not integrated before 2016, and there is still an uninhabited 4th type. This pairs fairly well with the four U.S. concepts of organized incorporated, unorganized incorporated, organized unincorporated, and unorganized unincorporated. Currently, the first U.S. category is empty. Because Northern and ACT the first type of Australian territory and are not listed as separate bulletins, I would argue that if an act of Congress ever incorporated a territory like Puerto Rico as a transition to statehood, that it should also be removed as a bulletin on the list as well. Because Palmyra is not organized, it fits in the second category of U.S. territory, and if similarly situated Australian territories are in the bullets than Palmyra should be as well.
Although, this does bring up an interesting point with regards to one Australian territory I haven't brought up, Jarvis Bay. It's integrated and listed as internal, but is subordinated electorally to another territory that gets its own representation like the external territories I mentioned before. Because it's listed as internal, maybe it's a territory in a special 1A category and should stay unbulleted, but there's a case to be made that it should be added to the bulleted list. Astrofreak92 (talk) 03:21, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
I do not feel that parallel works in that way. On the strict legal Australian basis, there is no definitive Australian law or ruling that tackles the question of the constitutional status of the external territories. Trying to look into it, I found this PhD thesis [4] from 2005 arguing that the distinction between external and internal territories is false. (Sadly only the introduction is accessible there.) Nonetheless, this is the distinction that the Australian Government employs to this day [5]. To me, this separation mirrors the US incorporated vs. unincorporated split, with incorporated territories being internal, and unincorporated territories being external. As for an act of Congress (like the one you suggest for Puerto Rico), Palmyra Atoll was annexed by Congress along with the rest of the Republic of Hawaii in 1898. I agree that if a similar act is passed for Puerto Rico, it should at that point also be unbulleted. CMD (talk) 12:02, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
The distinctions in Australia law come from the Acts Interpretation Act 1901.[6] "internal Territory means the Australian Capital Territory, the Northern Territory or the Jervis Bay Territory;" "external Territory means a Territory, other than an internal Territory, where an Act makes provision for the government of the Territory as a Territory;" "Australia means the Commonwealth of Australia and, when used in a geographical sense, includes Norfolk Island, the Territory of Christmas Island and the Territory of Cocos (Keeling) Islands, but does not include any other external Territory."[7] So legally, the external territories are not part of the Commonwealth of Australia. Palmyra however is part of the U.S. as determined in the Insular cases.
The distinction is the same, although it is less significant in Australia, because there is no constitutional bill of rights or citizenship law.
TFD (talk) 14:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
Why not change the name of the article to "List of states," where it is clear it does not include subnational areas with no international personality such as U.S. states? Then instead of arguing about what states belong on the list, we can argue about the description for each one, such as sovereign state and dependency. TFD (talk) 05:23, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
I am not sure if dependent territories constitute "states". Considering this didn't come up back in the day when the months of discussion led to the current page setup, I am doubtful that strong sourcing for this exists. (Also, I doubt very much you could make it clear it doesn't include subnational areas. No clarifications seem to stop the addition of England onto some country lists.) CMD (talk) 09:09, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
The terms nation, country and state can be used with different meanings. Some writers use the term "dependent states" I note btw that Oxford's Guide to Countries of the World includes dependent territories, such as Christmas Island under "Smaller Countries" on p. x.[ https://books.google.com/books?id=gvKvfxkbZ1AC&lpg=PP1&pg=PR10#v=onepage&q&f=falseon] I don't think this is an exact science. TFD (talk) 22:06, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Oddly, that book has places such as the Norfolk Island and Reunion in the standard countries section. Surely they're small too? Anyway, it is sources like those that are why I think the dependent territories should be included in this article. However, I don't see the advantage of making the title more vague in order to move the dependent territories to their own rows. The current setup is a useful method of inclusion for them despite them not falling under the inclusion criteria established, which although not exact may be as close to that as is possible. CMD (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Because sources that list the countries of the world typically include separate entries for dependent states. The CIA Factbook for example has a separate listing Norfolk Island.[8][ Whether or not a territory is independent or a Commonwealth Realm or an associated state etc. may not be that important to someone who is planning to visit a country. Dependent states, in common with sovereign states, occupy landmass, have populations and participate in international bodies. TFD (talk) 03:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
Anyway, there has been extensive discussion on this talk page, mostly because it is a matter of judgment in some cases whether a state meets the criteria. TFD (talk) 03:48, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
The World Factbook has those individual pages, but also has a separate list where it notes these are all "non-independent entities" [9]. Meanwhile, other sources don't include them [eg. https://www.britannica.com/topic-browse/Countries-of-the-World/1]. I feel the current setup of this page where they are included but not as their own entry is a useful way to reflect these various sources, while providing clarifying information where needed. CMD (talk) 05:58, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Some sources list sovereign states only and some also list dependent states too. The problem though is that when it is left to editors or to experts for that matter to determine what is a sovereign state, there will be disagreement. Taiwan for example is a province of China but acts as a sovereign state. Niue and the Cook Islands are associated states but New Zealand considers them to be dependencies. Either we have an objective standard for inclusion in the list, or we can argue over these exceptional cases ad infinitum. TFD (talk) 18:42, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

The current inclusion criteria were established through a massive RFC discussion that lasted for a ridiculously long period of time and has largely stopped most of the severe edit warring that used to go on on this page. They have worked fine since then, and there is no reason to change them now.XavierGreen (talk) 18:08, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
I 100% agree with XavierGreen here, the inclusion criteria works. Plain and simple. I reject any suggestion that we abandon this approach. Moving the page to "List of states" and away from "List of sovereign states" is just a step in that direction, as the current page's criteria is based on the idea/concept of sovereignty. - Wiz9999 (talk) 00:49, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
There is no reason why a list of sovereign states would include dependent and constituent states and territories. TFD (talk) 01:49, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't. Dependent territories are expressly included ONLY as bullet points (ie. sub points/sub entries) of a main entry. This is consistent with the current criteria. - Wiz9999 (talk) 02:24, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
But why include them at all? TFD (talk) 02:56, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
Because many entities exist in a grey zone and it is not as clear if they are dependent territories or independent states. See the whole Pakistan-Kashmir thing for a good example of this, or New Zealand-Cook Islands. There is also the weird relationship the UK has with the Cyprus sovereign base areas, the BIOT, and also with the crown dependencies. It causes less conflict to list these examples in this way, since the list is not ignoring their existence either but placing them in an appropriate location that will not encourage editors to add them in as main entries in the list. - Wiz9999 (talk) 03:17, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Vatican? The only thing I can think of for them is that their not a full UN Member. 2607:FEA8:F420:3DD1:6166:9E39:EDC5:98F9 (talk) 22:53, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Donetsk, Luhansk

The Donetsk People's Republic and the Luhansk People's Republic have declared themselves independent, control certain territories (and probably will continue to do so as long as Russia supports them), and have government entities working in their controlled territory. I don't see much difference between these two and Somaliland. Shall we include them into the list (in the section "other states"), what do you think? --Tscherpownik (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Not unless you can do what the last two dozen people proposing this failed to do and actually provide reliable sources demonstrating that these are often regarded as meeting the criteria for the Montevideo Convention, or are recognised by a UN member state.
Wikipedians' assessments of complex issues such as this count for very little, I'm afraid. Kahastok talk 23:07, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
I mean, they do fit the Montevideo Conventions in my opinion. They have permanent populations. They have de facto defined territory (as in, territory under their control which they have managed to keep under relatively stable borders for years). They have governments. And they can enter relations with other states, having the legal authority to do so and in fact having relations with each other and South Ossetia.

Taiwan

I have added Taiwan into the generally recognized list again. While I know there are CCP sympathizers on this site, there is no good reason Taiwan should not be included while Palestine is. Taiwan is recognized by multiple UN states, goes above and beyond the requirements of the Montevideo Convention, and is a UN observer state, which is what the list requires. In fact, Taiwan is more sovereign than Palestine, as Taiwan is fully capable of self-defense and has a functioning economy, while Palestine is defenseless and is almost entirely dependent on foreign aid. Please stop changing it back unless you can give a valid reason Palestine is in there. --KanzazKyote (talk) 03:38, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Palestine is an observer state in the UN. We have that from pretty much the most authoritative source there is, the UN itself.
That, you will notice, is a list of UN Observer States. You will also notice that Taiwan is not on that list.
Please provide evidence for your contention that Taiwan is an Observer State at the United Nations. When doing so, please bear in mind that, given that the United Nations itself does not list Taiwan as an observer, your evidence is going to have to be exceptionally strong. Kahastok talk 18:46, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
As is explicitly cited on the main page, Taiwan is an observer in one agency under "Chinese Taipei," which is universally recognized to be the politically correct name for the "Republic of China." --KanzazKyote (talk) 18:00, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
Please note that Taiwan is not an United Nations General Assembly observer. --Matt Smith (talk) 05:34, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
The World Health Organisation is not the United Nations and the fact that an entity is an observer to the World Health Organisation does not make it a United Nations Observer State.
The section at the bottom includes more than one full member of the World Health Organisation. None of these are United Nations Member States, nor Observer States. Kahastok talk 18:35, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

"List of counties and cities" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect List of counties and cities. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. TheAwesomeHwyh 23:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

RFC from discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of sovereign states in the 2020s

Recently, there was an AFD whose particular discussion I closed as no consensus. In that discussion, there seemed to be a consensus that there was a need to take a closer look at the general list series involving sovereign states by decade. I am opening up this RFC in the hopes that this might be a place to further that discussion. Best, bibliomaniac15 01:14, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Is there a proposal related to this article here?
My view is that the decade articles are more trouble than they are worth. One difficulty is that the inclusion criteria tend to be poor or non-existent. They claim to rely on this article. But there is a fundamental difference between this article and those articles. This article is a snapshot of the world today, not a historical article or an article about states that have existed in the last ten years or something. This article has no hindsight. But the decade articles are historical articles and so cannot be neutral if they do not take hindsight into account.
The example that has caused us most trouble recently is the inclusion of the Republic of Crimea on the List of sovereign states in the 2010s. Crimea technically met the criteria for this list for a few days in March 2014 while being annexed by Russia. As a result, List of sovereign states in the 2010s treats it in the same way as it treats Kosovo and Taiwan. To my mind that clearly fails to observe WP:WEIGHT because it refuses to take hindsight - in this case the fact that the "state", by even the most favorable argument, lasted less than a week - into account.
But these are questions for editors of the decade articles. The editors of those articles attempt to get out of dealing with cases like Crimea by hiding behind the inclusion criteria for this article. They are wrong to do so. The aim of those articles is fundamentally different from the aim of this one, and so those articles need to define their own inclusion criteria, which need to meet WP:NPOV on their own merits.
And the trouble with this RFC, if it's about the decade articles, is that this is the wrong place. If editors on the decade articles shouldn't be hiding behind our decisions, we shouldn't expect that decisions made here will be binding on those articles. Kahastok talk 14:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Misunderstanding

@Ans: I am afraid you have misunderstood the system of this list regarding the entries of the type "X → Y". They have nothing to do with "common name → formal name". They are meant for easy navigation if someone looks for a country under another name than the one used in the list, or if someone is looking in the wrong list. If someone looks for "North Korea", they find the entry "North Korea → Korea, North", where "Korea, North" is clickable, and if you click on it, you come to the entry for the country. If someone looks for "Artsakh" in the main list, they find the entry "Artsakh → Artsakh", where the second "Artsakh" is clickable and brings you to the entry for Artsakh in the "Other states" list. The same happens if you are looking for "Nagorno-Karabakh". You then find "Nagorno-Karabakh → Artsakh" and can click to the entry for "Artsakh". The way you have changed it, if you look for "Taiwan" in the main list, you find "Taiwan → Republic of China", indicating that you should look for "Republic of China" in the list, not clickable. But "Republic in China" is not in the list, and what you actually are looking for, is found under "Taiwan" in the "Other states" list. Also the entry you removed, was a similarly useful navigation tool. Please self revert. --T*U (talk) 13:06, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

 Thanks --Ans (talk) 12:44, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Southern Transitional Council in Yemen

The Southern Transitional Council has declared self-governance on 26 April 2020. In Aden, the movement's attempt was successful, as it occupied all governmental institutions. How to categorize this? Is it a de facto government like in Somaliland even if maybe too soon to tell? Wykx (talk) 19:37, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Way too soon to make any call at all.
First, "self-governance" is not independence.
Second, there is no evidence that any UN member state has recognised Southern Yemen as an independent sovereign state.
Third, nobody has provided any source that analyses the situation in terms of the declarative theory of statehood, let alone finds a significant body of opinion that accepts that it meets the standard.
This article should really really really not be in the business of trying to track, day-by-day, the progress of every military conflict in the world. Kahastok talk 20:22, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Wa State

I'm wondering whether Wa State would count as a sovereign state, since they have declared independence from Myanmar and administer themselves? Unown Uzer717 (talk) 07:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Wa state has not declared independence, it operates as an autonomous area within Myanmar. CMD (talk) 08:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Wa state is not de jure independent of Myanmar. It is not a part of the UN system, it is not recognised by any other state, nor does it satisfy criteria for the declarative theory of statehood. See List of states with limited recognition#Criteria for inclusion for the specific rationalisation and List of active rebel groups#Groups that control territory for more information. - Wiz9999 (talk) 09:05, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
The only rebel controlled territory in Burma/Myanmar that declared independence was Khun Sa's Shan State in 1991, which was subsequently conquered by Wa State forces and the Myanmar military leading to Khun Sa's surrender to the government in 1996. Portions of Khun Sa's forces that refused to surrender reorganized as Shan State Army - South which does control some territory in Burma. However i have seen no source which states that Shan State Army South maintains Khun Sa's claim to independence or whether or not it even considers itself a successor in interest to Khun Sa's state. None the less, Shan State should probably be added to the List of sovereign_states in the 1990s page since its defacto independence from 1991 to 1996 is well attested in reliable sources. XavierGreen (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Judea and Samaria Area

The Judea and Samaria Area, the Isreali administration in the West Bank, should be added as an bulleted entity to the list under Israel. It is an Israeli administrative division that is not an integral part of of Israel, it thus is similar in many respects to the Pakistani administered territories of Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan and is likewise akin to a territory or dependency and should be treated as such in the article.XavierGreen (talk) 01:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I've spent a little while checking our articles on the topic. My conclusions:
  • "Judea and Samaria Area" is a strongly POV term used by proponents of the proposed Israeli annexation of the West Bank.
  • The text does already mention the West Bank, couched in appropriate context. I think in principle that in this and similar situations we should be aiming for the maximum reasonable context. Adding it as a bullet point reduces the scope for context.
  • It is far from obvious to me that "Any dependencies, if applicable, which are generally not part of the territory of the sovereign state" would include situations such as this one.
Kahastok talk 08:49, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
We have criteria specifically about buleted entries, Judea and Samaria Area would not be satisfied under them:

The table includes bullets representing entities which are either not sovereign states or have a close association to another sovereign state. It also includes subnational areas where the sovereignty of the titular state is limited by an international agreement. Taken together, these include:

  • States in a free association relationship to another state
  • Two entities controlled by Pakistan which are neither sovereign states, dependent territories, or part of another state: Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan
  • Dependent territories of another state, as well as areas that exhibit many characteristics of dependent territories according to the dependent territory page
  • Subnational entities created by international agreements

- Wiz9999 (talk) 09:01, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
That's the bit I was looking for, thanks. Kahastok talk 09:09, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm not sure why the Netherlands is listed as a bullet (under Netherland's entry) since it is not specified as a dependency under the Kingdom of the Netherlands over-arching state entity. This section probably needs to have this bullet removed and the text re-worded to reflect that it is only Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten that are listed as dependencies under the dependent territory article (See here: Dependent territory#Netherlands). - Wiz9999 (talk) 09:26, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Judea and Samaria is the official name for Israel's polity administering territory in the West Bank. This polity is neither recognized as a sovereign state by any entity, nor is it claimed as an integral part of Israel. It is thus "neither [a] sovereign state, dependent territory, or part of another state" and would fall under that critera. I would argue that it would violate the NPOV rule to not mention it, as we mentioned the State of Palestine. Adding it as a bullet point expands the context, since nothing about the Israeli administration is mentioned at all in the article presentlyXavierGreen (talk) 18:49, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
The Israeli Civil Administration is the "governing agency" (actually military occupier, not "civil" at all). J&S is just a political naming, totally irrelevant in this listing (actually in pretty much any listing whatsoever).Selfstudier (talk) 21:21, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Whatever the formal name of the entity is, my argument still stands.XavierGreen (talk)
I never said that it shouldn't be mentioned in the further information section of the list, just that it shouldn't be stated as a bulleted point, as there are specific criteria for that (A state in free association, subnational entity created by international agreement, presence on the dependent territory list, or those two unique entities associated with Pakistan). It is probably most appropriately described just as a note attached to the text of the further information section of Israel (see note "k" relating to Taiwan in the China entry as an example). - Wiz9999 (talk) 21:56, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
We might get a bit circular on the bullets as they could be edited. My understanding is that the Pakistani entities are included due to their treatment by Pakistan as unincorporated territories pending a resolution of the Kashmir conflict. The potential difference I see between Judea and Samaria and the Pakistani entities is that the administration of Judea and Samaria is either directly through Israel or together with the Palestinian government. It's not by itself a separate entity in the same way. CMD (talk) 02:20, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
The Isreali administered areas in the West Bank (Area C in the Oslo Accords) are unincorporated, hence the controversy surrounding the proposed annexation.XavierGreen (talk) 03:07, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Agreed with CMD here, it is not a separate entity in the same way as the Pakistani entities. It also does not directly correspond to the same defined term as Area C, which is distinct from Judea and Samaria. It is an internal Israeli subdivision that has its effective control only in Area C, but is not exclusive of Israel's perceived ownership/control of Areas A and B. Area A and Area B are far more significant with regards to Israel's entry here (due to their bespoke nature and bespoke creation) than the more conceptual Judea and Samaria entity which only exists in real terms in a portion of its area (Area C). - Wiz9999 (talk) 09:24, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Palestine is not a "dependancy" of Israel, end of. Israel has purported to annex the area of East Jerusalem so that area is in dispute with the State of Palestine, which claims it. As far as the international community is concerned, said annexation is "null and void" and the entire territory claimed by Palestine (including Gaza) is occupied by Israel. (A's B's C's and other administrative acrobatics are only relevant in a limited "domestic" sense (a matter of convenience) as "Oslo" was never actually implemented.)Selfstudier (talk) 10:31, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't thnik anyone here is suggesting that, we are talking about the internal Israeli situation. - Wiz9999 (talk) 15:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
You may not be but according to the op, "likewise akin to a territory or dependency" - hogwash (and typical POV push).Selfstudier (talk) 17:59, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm not pushing any POV, and as Wiz stated i'm not making any suggestion as to the State of Palestine. This article takes a neutral point of view as to all territorial disputes. The validity of one particular side of a dispute is irrelevant. We list polities that meet the criteria regardless of what the world thinks of them. For example, we list Somaliland, which no states recognize. The question to be asked is how are the Israeli administered areas of the West Bank treated under Israeli law? They are plainly not treated as an incorporated part of Israel, but if they are treated in a manner akin to a dependency or other unincorporated territory then it qualifies to be bulleted on this list (as Azad Kashmir is for example).XavierGreen (talk) 18:27, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
There is no administration, there is only occupation, a matter of international not domestic law. And it's not a "territorial dispute" either, you sound just like the Israeli government, as I said already, obvious POV push.Selfstudier (talk) 21:44, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
The settlers living in Area C would disagree with you. The Israeli government annexed East Jerusalem outright, there is most definitely a territorial dispute. And quite frankly, I personally don't care who controls the West Bank. The Jordanians or even the British could take the whole thing for all I care. But that's entirely irrelevant, as personal opinions are irrelevant here. All that matters is that we describe what sources say in a neutral manner.XavierGreen (talk) 01:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I agree about sources and all of those say "occupied" as do all relevant UN resolutions and therefore "disputed territory" (= the Israeli government position = occupation denial) is a minority of 1. Just so you know, an annex needs a peace treaty in order to be valid because territory cannot be acquired by force which is why the international community has declared the Israeli annex "null and void" (ie there is no disputed territory only occupied territory regardless of what the Israeli government might say). As for illegally located settlers, all sources agree on that as well, their opinion is worth zero.Selfstudier (talk) 10:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
This is tangential to the issue XavierGreen raised, which is solely concerned with Israeli administrative structures. These structures do exist in the occupied territories. It would probably be very difficult to occupy somewhere without some sort of administration. CMD (talk) 10:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
No it isn't. There is only one "administrative structure", the Israeli Civil Administration ie the military occupation. That is all that needs to be addressed, terminology such as "Judea and Samaria", "disputed territory" etc are all just reflections of a non NPOV position. Otherwise you can start including the Israeli National Parks Authority and the Israeli Antiques Administration and other "administrative entities" which are nothing more than dressed up arms of the occupation (under or reporting to the Israeli Civil Administration). If we want to include a comment about the "administrative entity" under the Israel entry, that's fine, it's called the Israeli Civil Administration aka the military occupation. All this "varying levels of control" baloney that is written there now can be subsumed in just one ie the Israeli Civil Administration. That's it, you don't need anything else. I can back all this up with any number of sources.Selfstudier (talk) 12:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The Israeli Civil Administration is not an administrative division. As for the control and the occupation, they are currently mentioned in the extent. CMD (talk) 12:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
The clue is in the name -Administration- or from our article "The Civil Administration is the Israeli governing body that operates in the West Bank. It was established by the government of Israel in 1981, in order to carry out practical bureaucratic functions..." Sounds like an administrative division to me, where are you getting your definition?Selfstudier (talk) 12:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Just to clarify, Judea and Samaria Area is not really an "administrative division", it effectively just means "West Bank" (it was called like that to make a point) so one refers, for example, to the "Public Liaison Section, Civil Administration, Judea and Samaria Area" (as opposed to some other area) or to the "Head of the Civil Administration in the Judea and Samaria Area" and all it means is the military command. Even the imposition of Israeli laws in the WB (for settlers) are implemented by way of military orders.Selfstudier (talk) 12:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
An administration is not the same thing as the area under its jurisdiction. Your quote even states that the Civil Administration operates in an area, not that it is the area. As for stating that Judea and Samaria is equal to the West Bank, that ignores the many sources that include East Jerusalem within the West Bank. CMD (talk) 13:56, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
That's two circular arguments. This is just supposed to be a list not a discussion of the ins and outs of the IP conflict, we should keep it like that. As long as it is not in the article, there is no need to debate this further. Selfstudier (talk) 14:04, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Map

No offence to @Yash400: but the new map that has been added to the article is not the best map. I know it has been sourced directly from the UN, but there are weird issues and choices that the UN made in drawing it up. The map indicates the Pakistan/India/China border in Kashmir as being disputed, a note about the unique situation is made as well. Fair Enough. However, they then show the entire Sudan/South Sudan border as "not yet been determined". Only portions of this border are in dispute (around the Abyei area and the Radom National Park) with the rest of it being defined. A text note is made for the Sudan/South Sudan section as well. However, the border dispute between Egypt and Sudan is indicated and is not mentioned in text, as is an undefined section of border between Ethiopia and Somalia. The Koreas are shown as having a disputed border (again, fair enough), but also no mention is made of the circumstances in the text area. Conversely, the Falkland Islands are indicated with a double **, but are solely indicated on the map with text as being in a disputed situation. Palestine is outlined but not labelled, but no other limited recognition state is shown (Ok, fair point it is a UN observer, but the Holy See does have its name on the map too). In addition to all of this, font sizes are inconsistent and change size within some official state names (e.g. the Koreas and Laos) but not in others (e.g. DR Congo and Moldova). The map indicates most dependent territories, but excludes some, particularly the Heard and McDonald Islands and Kerguelen which are completely covered by the massive block of text. Meanwhile some non-dependent territories are listed (e.g. Tromelin, Cargados Carajos Shoals, and Marquesas) despite being subunits of a territorial division and/or mostly uninhabited. All these are very inconsistent practices, and I am not sure what the original map makers were thinking when drawing up the map other than to highlight certain specific disputes from their POV. – Wiz9999 (talk) 13:28, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree. Even though it is UN sourced, there is a disclaimer (right, at the bottom) saying that boundaries names and designations are not endorsed or accepted by the UN (whose POV is a known quantity), which renders it less than useful (it reflects some POV but it is unclear whose). I suppose it is difficult to get a map without a copyright problem but having this map is worse than having no map.Selfstudier (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
I view including a map in this article as being as problematic as all of the other sundry data that we have removed over the years. It is difficult to keep up-to-date. It implies something stronger in terms of borders than we're generally prepared to accept. The fact that we cannot neutrally deal with the states with limited recognition in this format without OR is going to cause huge problems in the long run.
Using an external map makes life even more complicated because we can't easily change it to reflect Wikipedia consensus as to the best way of neutrally naming particular places or of describing borders. Kahastok talk 16:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

List of countries by alphabetical order

If we arrange the list of countries by alphabetical order, considering we put The Bahamas under B and The Gambia under G, shouldn't we put El Salvador (literally means The Salvador) under S? 144.130.162.86 (talk) 09:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

It means The Saviour, not The Salvador. --ExperiencedArticleFixer (talk) 14:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I understand the argument, but I haven't seen that done by any English sources. The words seem to be treated as one in English. CMD (talk) 12:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
I've never seen El Salvador alphabetized under "S" in English; in fact, I don't think that I've seen it alphabetized under "S" in Spanish, either. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 21:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
That's because the Salvadorians use Spanish "The" in their country name, a lot of English users properly don't understand what that word means and just treat it as another word lol. Seriously though, I think not only us, but all the country lists on the web should list El Salvador under "S". Otherwise, people from non-English speaking countries will not treat our lists serious as we have failed to apply a uniform standard in our lists. 110.145.30.41 (talk) 07:14, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Since you apparently skipped right over it, let me repeat that I don't think that I've ever seen El Salvador alphabetized under the S *in Spanish*. Yes, "el" in Spanish is the masculine article that would be "the" in English. But "El Salvador" refers specifically to Jesus Christ, and the "El" is an integral part of the name of the country. Please note that when we say in Spanish that I'm going to "el pueblo" (the town), we don't say "voy a el pueblo" but rather "voy al pueblo," with the preposition "a" and the article "el" merging into the contraction "al." However, when we say that "I am going to El Salvador," the correct sentence is "Voy a El Salvador." The "El" in "El Salvador" is not a mere article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 07:31, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
Now I can see why I failed my Spanish lessons... :) – Wiz9999 (talk) 06:52, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
"a lot of English users properly don't understand what that word means and just treat it as another word" That's the point. The "el" doesn't mean anything in English. It is not simply an article present only for grammatical reasons, its part of the name. When we use "El Salvador" in English it doesn't mean "The Savior", it means this particular chunk of the Earth's surface. And it is the totality of the phrase "El Salvador" that has this meaning. You are confusing derivation with meaning.--Khajidha (talk) 17:41, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
Agree, because this is foreign language grammar. In English it is always under E. Pikavoom (talk) 08:11, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

List sections and sorting

The current sections of the list make absolutely no sense, since redirects of non-member states are included in the member's section of the list. The list should either be sectioned by member status or sorted strictly in alphabetical order. Which one should it be? --MB-one (talk) 10:55, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

The redirects are to ensure that those who might look for a state in the larger list can be directed to where the state actually appears within the article. They're purely navigational aids. Otherwise the list is already structured by member status. CMD (talk) 12:32, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
I know that, but it still doesn't make sense. Either the list is sectioned into members and non-members or it isn't sectioned. It can't be both. --MB-one (talk) 11:33, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
It is a compromise to help assist with navigation, not part of the table's sorting order itself. – Wiz9999 (talk) 16:15, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
It doesn't really help anything but is confusing and illogical at best. So, how's it going to be sectioned or non-sectioned?--MB-one (talk) 11:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't see any reason why the status quo cannot remain. I think some editors will scroll down and look for entities that are not in the first part of the list in the default view without reading the initial part of the article. And I think we ought to tell them where to find those entities. Kahastok talk 16:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Taiwan's supposed claims on mainland China

A couple editors seem insistent on the idea that Taiwan claims China as part of territory, based solely on statements former Taiwanese president Ma Ying-jeou, of the no-longer-in-power Kuomintang party, made over a decade ago. If a former US president declared that Canada should be part of the US, that wouldn't make it the United States' official position. Without better evidence or a fuller discussion, this doesn't belong here. 98.7.83.199 (talk) 00:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

There is a lot more to it than that. Your analogy is misguided. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 06:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Sovereign Military Order of Malta

Hi, I think we should add the Order of Malta because it is technically a sovereign state, however, I think we should add it in a different category (not as Sovereign State or Other State), it should be called something like "Other Recognized Sovereign Entities". User: Rodrigo B D —Preceding undated comment added 13:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

At List of sovereign states#cite note-micros-111 it says The Sovereign Military Order of Malta is not included, as despite being a sovereign entity it lacks territory and does not claim statehood. FDW777 (talk) 13:27, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that is true but it is also a UN observer state right? User: Rodrigo B D —Preceding undated comment added 13:37, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

No, it is not an observer state. It has a "permanent observer status", but since it is not a state, it can not be an observer state. Other organizations with observer status are EU, OPEC, Red Cross, IOC etc. etc. There are lots. --T*U (talk) 14:57, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Change the heading "Other States"

Hi, I think the "Other States" Heading is too broad because someone might see the other states heading and they might think Azawad and Dar'El'Kuti should also be there. I think we should change it to Partially recognized and Unrecognized States. User: Rodrigo B D —Preceding undated comment added 13:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that the heading has to cover many different situations. Cook Islands and Niue are neither partially recognized nor unrecognized. The "Other states" heading is a compromise to cover all the different types of status. If someone wants to add other entities, they will have to show that they fill the criteria in the section "Criteria for inclusion". --T*U (talk) 15:05, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
I don't see how the proposed new title better excludes Azawad and Dar'El'Kuti. CMD (talk) 15:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

I think it better excludes them because they are proto-states, and it could be confused with Other States. However, I do understand perfectly what you mean by not changing the title User: Rodrigo B D —Preceding undated comment added 16:50, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Add Proto-States to the Other states list

Why don't we add proto-states to the "other States" part? These should include Donetsk, Luhansk, and Dar El Kuti (and maybe Kurdistan too) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rodrigo B D (talk • contribs) 16:59, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Because (a) they don't meet the inclusion standards for this list, (b) they are beyond the reasonable scope of "sovereign states", (c) there's no clear and easy definition of what a "proto-state" is and (d) we really really really do not want to be in the business of tracking, day by day, the progress of every internal conflict on the planet. Kahastok talk 19:51, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

DNR and LNR

Can anyone add Donetsk and Lugansk? They fall under the same criteria as Pridnestrovie. 'Doomer1557' ( talk) 15:48, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I don't think we should add them to the list because there is one major difference between them which is that Pridnestrovie holds all of its territories, and the DPR and LPR don't, they only hold a portion of what is left of their original territorial claims. However, there is one more thing that prevents them from entering the list, the fact that they are still at war with Ukraine. User: Rodrigo B D —Preceding undated comment added 13:48, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

To be clear, the reason they are not included is because they do not meet the inclusion criteria detailed by the article.
This is because they are not recognised by any UN member state, and nobody has ever been able to demonstrate that there is any other significant body of opinion that holds that they are states. Kahastok talk 19:54, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Making a case for the inclusion of Sealand

Hello, I would like to make a case for adding the Principality of Sealand to the list of "other states." Before you write off my proposal because of it's current status as a "micronation", I'd ask that you read what I've wrote and take it into consideration. Thank you.

I'd like to start of by saying that I'm not trying to clear a path for micronations to be included. They should stay in a separate article. Rather, I believe that I can make a circumstantial case for it's inclusion. Right now in the article, we have criteria for states that must be met for inclusion into the list. What I'm proposing is the inclusion of the Principality of Sealand into the "Other states" list as a Non-Member, undisputed territory.

To start, I will go over each piece of criteria in detail to explain the reason that Sealand meats each one. The criteria that a sate must satisfy is either:

  • consider themselves sovereign (through a declaration of independence or some other means) and are often regarded as satisfying the declarative theory of statehood, or
  • are recognized as a sovereign state by at least one UN member state

This criteria has been evaluated and discussed by many users and by common consensus, is what Wikipedia uses. For Sealand to satisfy the criteria for the first one, it has to: 1) consider themselves sovereign and; 2) Sealand must also satisfy the declarative theory. Sealand satisfies the first one because they consider themselves as sovereign as stated no and at numerous point throughout it's history. Sealand also satisfies the declarative theory. It is the only "micronation" to complete this "checklist." No other has or probably ever will come anywhere even close. The declarative theory is made up of four criteria: 1) a defined territory; 2) a permanent population; 3) a government and 4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states. I'll go over each one in more detail below.

1) a defined territory. Sealand has a defined territory that consists of Fort Roughs. It's an island (the way in which it was constructed and "installed" means it fits the definition of artificial island, not a platform.) that has an area of .004 square km. The United Nations convention of the law of the sea (UNCLOS) is brought up at times in this instance because the island is artificial. I must point out that Sealand was founded in 1967 and that UNCLOS was effective starting in 1994. A law written in the future doesn't retroactively remove Sovereignty, it was in place and established decades before UNCLOS was drafted. Sealand's land, at the time of founding, was outside the UK's territorial waters. This claim was challenged and British courts ruled that the United Kingdom does not claim ownership or jurisdiction of Sealand. Effectively, this means that the land was uncontested by any existing government. The UK did extend it's territorial waters to 12 nm in 1987, but this was both after the ruling (that British sovereignty didn't apply on the island) and after the founding of Sealand. This means that Sealand is enclaved by the UK's waters, but isn't part of the UK because the UK doesn't claim or apply it's own sovereignty to the island. Think of it like a normal maritime border where Sealand is surrounded by but not a part of the UK's waters.

2) a permanent population. This one won't be as long, there is always people living on Sealand and there is no minimum for people. While it is an abnormally low count of people, so are states like that Vatican, and again, there is no minimum.

3) a government. Sealand has a government structured as a principality and has a formal constitution to govern the state.

4) a capacity to enter into relations with other states. This one is the hardest for any new state to fulfill. But Sealand has demonstrated it's capacity to enter into relations with other states on many occasions. The most notable being when it hosted a German diplomat for diplomatic purposes between Germany and the Principality. This unequivocally shows the Sealand satisfies this final requirement for inclusion into this article.

Irregardless of Sealand's status, for the last 53 years it has been de facto sovereign from any other government. Something that can't be said about any other "micronational" entity. This is why I believe it should no longer be classified as a micronation. I know that for many of you reading this, that word has been stuck in your mind, that it's a micronation and the nothing else matters, but the circumstances of Sealand are far different then any other declared entity. What would we classify it as? Well, we have the criteria right here in the list. In the list of "other states" under UN recognized states, we have two column, the first one being UN membership with three different options already used for states in that list. They are: No membership, special UN member, and former UN member. Sealand fits into the "No membership" status. The second column is the sovereignty dispute one. In accordance with the UK's ruling on no jurisdiction, the column would be "None" (Similar to Somaliland's status in the table). The table and legend already have the criteria needed for inclusion because it's been de facto sovereign for over 50 years. Even if it doesn't get recognition by other states, it's still by virtue of fact sovereign.

To wrap thing up, Sealand should no longer be considered a Micronation and instead be reclassified as sovereign state. in fact, it should never have been classified as a micronation because it has demonstrated sovereignty for over 50 years, really before the term micronation was used. It is the only one that has fulfilled all of the necessary criteria to become a state, no other one has ever come anywhere close. It has been de facto independent for over 50 years, stood up to early challenges of sovereignty and clearly meets all of the necessary criteria for inclusion on this list. In the meantime, I have already prepared it's entry into the list of "other states" and I am ready to implement it upon the consensus.

Thank you for reading this and I hope you can consider it's inclusion based on what I have written here over the last few days! Jrcraft Yt (talk) 06:38, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Your line of argument is basically irrelevant to us. Even in places where there are real-life secessionist movements with control over territory, it does not matter whether random Wikipedia editors think that the criteria outlined in Montevideo are met. What matters is whether reliable sources - in this case, diplomatic, legal or academic sources - think that the criteria are met.
In this case, the fact that Sealand is a micronation is not a matter of serious dispute. Kahastok talk 15:58, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose inlcusion, could not be taken really serious.(KIENGIR (talk) 18:17, 23 October 2020 (UTC))
Unless it can be shown that reliable, scholarly sources consider Sealand to be a sovereign state, they have no place in this list. End of story. --T*U (talk) 20:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
Agreed with Kahastok, KIENGIR, and TU-nor above. I am opposed to the inclusion of Sealand here. I agree that it is the single best case for a micronation being considered for becoming an actual state that exists out there. However, I have yet to see any credible RS actually consider it as such (or actual formal recognition be granted). Many of the arguments that Jrcraft Yt makes and claims as "unequivocally" showing his case are indeed not unequivocal and may be subject to interpretation based on perspective. This subjectiveness of Sealand's satisfaction of the declarative theory criteria hardly justifies Sealand's inclusion presently, but I understand it is a situation to watch as I do not think Sealand's sovereignty quest has reached its zenith yet. - Wiz9999 (talk) 17:04, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. This is a list of sovereign states, not a list of abandoned structures out at sea where some schmuck decided to camp out and pretend to be the president of his own country. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 04:55, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Many legal scholars have argued that Sealand meets the criteria of a sovereign state, for example in "The Principality of Sealand, and Its Case for Sovereign Recognition" in the Emory International Law Review. That's why a list of this sort is ultimately synthesis and OR. Because editors are making personal decisions on which countries to include, based on how strong they believe competing arguments to be. TFD (talk) 02:41, 31 October 2020 (UTC)
That article doesn't seem to be very convinced by itself when talking about condition #4. There is a lot of "it may", and "it could" in there. It also quotes a lot of ancient facts, like the ability to use its passports back in the 70s when you could still enter most countries by presenting a fake self-printed cardboard passport anyway. --77.58.104.73 (talk) 10:46, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
There are basically two ways of determining statehood: meeting internal conditions and external recognition. But before 1947, the British dominions such as Canada were effectively sovereign, although they did not have defined populations, while India was a member of the UN, although it was under the control of the UK. You can't just follow a checklist, you need expert judgment. Whether or not Sealand is a sovereign state depends on how you define it. In the end it doesn't matter, because it's not getting a seat in the UN. Incidentally, the Canadian provinces form a special case, because they are able to enter into foreign treaties. When the constitution was written, the UK was responsible for foreign affairs, but when they abandoned that responsibility they did not assign it to either level of government. So each level can sign treaties based on their delineated powers. There are all kinds of anomalies. TFD (talk) 23:21, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Duplicated listings

Why is Taiwan listed three times (twice in the "UN member states and observer states" group under "China, Republic of" and "Taiwan", even though Taiwan is not that, and again (correctly) in the "other states" group)? I was going to just boldly remove the duplicates until I noticed Artsakh has the same thing going on. Can someone please clean this page up? {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:50, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

There is only one listing. There are also two lines included from alternate locations so that people who look for Taiwan in the main list can find it.
To the regulars: this seems to come up a lot. I mean, to me the distinction between the navigation aids and the entries is blindingly obvious, and there is only so much we can do to make it more obvious. But if this many people come to talk asking about it, that's probably a clue that we need to try.
A possible starting point might be to put the navigation aids in italics? Possibly extend them across all four columns? Kahastok talk 23:11, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Kahastok, it's difficult to distinguish between a navigation aid and a hastily-added entry from someone who didn't see the main entry elsewhere. The distinction I'd expect is that a navigation aid would include a link scrolling to the main entry, but the navigation aids here don't have that, making them essentially useless as navigation aids. Oh wait, trout Self-trout, they actually do, it's just that it looks like they're a link to the country. Having the links stretch over the entire box would help, as would italics as you suggest above. There needs to be something. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:15, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
But even then, I don't think it's justifiable to place e.g. Taiwan in the "UN member states and observer states" group, since that's just misleading. I think it's better at some point to just trust that if a reader doesn't find Taiwan where they expect it, they'll be smart enough to ctrl+f. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:21, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I support the idea of stretching the alternative name tools over all four columns. I wouldn't italicise the whole thing myself, but perhaps the section after the arrow. Would adding a "see" and/or "listing", eg. "China, Republic of → [see] Taiwan [listing]", be useful? CMD (talk) 02:48, 30 November 2020 (UTC)
Agreed, and it seems like a relatively simple fix to implement. - Wiz9999 (talk) 08:05, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Ghnnm

Jjkkk Jim Qasme (talk) 22:52, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

"Countires of the world" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Countires of the world. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 28#Countires of the world until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. JsfasdF252 (talk) 18:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

I never knew that WP regularly redirects misspelling:)Selfstudier (talk) 13:06, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Map

I have removed the map added to this article. We had a discussion on a different map a few months ago.

The biggest issue here is that the map is sourced from the CIA World Factbook and therefore reflects the POV of the United States government. Patently this is not a neutral POV. For example, it treats Kosovo as independent. It ignores other states from the second part of the list, and it also outlines the West Bank and Gaza but without labelling them. Some disputed borders are included (e.g. in Kashmir), some not (e.g. in Crimea).

The image summary at Commons has a tag on it that says, This image is expected to always be the most recent one. Feel free to update it when needed. It seems reasonable to assume that it will evolve over time. Most obviously, the next edition is likely to reflect the new US stance on Western Sahara - a position that is not widely held internationally.

Overall, I view this in the same way as I view all the other proposals to add information that goes beyond the core purpose of the list. Which is, that it's almost certainly going to be more trouble than it's worth. Kahastok talk 11:45, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Kahastok, ah, I was very surprised to see that the article didn't already have a map, and your comment helps explain it. What you're saying makes sense, but also I don't think it'd be possible to get this list to FL status without having a map, since the physical location of the states of the world is essential related information for this list. I think if we can find a map that the UN or some other international agency actively uses for their own purposes, we should add it, but with in-text attribution to alleviate neutrality concerns. I don't think the neutrality concerns mean we have to have nothing: there will always be border disputes, just as there will always be people who dissent from whatever we write at controversial pages, but we should still include what the preponderance of reliable sources say.
For now, I'm going to try to find a photo or the UN general assembly in session or something, since this should have some sort of visual. I'm also going to add a hidden comment regarding the map, as it's otherwise all but guaranteed to be re-added.
Courtesy pinging previous commentators @Yash400, Wiz9999, and Selfstudier:. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 19:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Kahastok here. Any externally sourced map could raise the NPOV issue. However, this map is indeed MUCH better than the last one sourced from the UN laden with POV issues. It is at least based on one of the sources we referenced in this article multiple times, including within our bibliography, the CIA World Factbook. Yet, the concerns about disputed lands and future updates is a valid one (see [10] and [11], [12] and [13], and [14]), but overall the argument for using this map over other maps is more valid if a map absolutely MUST be included. I am just not convinced the map is a necessity, considering the list nature of the article, and especially since the article Country includes such a map anyway. In any case, this article really should not be using any file or map version different from that in the Country article, if any. If you feel this file specifically is better than the current map file over there please get consensus for the change on that article first before advocating for the same map to be used here. - Wiz9999 (talk) 04:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

How many fully recognized nations.

I just changed the given number for fully recognized nations from 190 to 188, and here is the edit summary I put: "It says that there are 190 nations ith no sovereignty dispute, however, I belive that it is only 188, 187 members (as it says 6 partially unrecognized members) plus the Vatican, an observer, with the other observer being Palestine is partially unrecognized, and then the 9 other nonmembers or observers remains unchanged"

I belive this mistake was made due to having Cook Islands and Niue also say that there is no sovereignty dispute. 98.114.153.7 (talk) 22:26, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

It is well-established that China, Israel, North Korea and South Korea are all partially-unrecognised, as seen in the list article "List of states with limited recognition". China is unrecognised by any countries that instead recognise the ROC government, based on Taiwan. Israel is unrecognised by a multitude of countries that instead recognise Palestine (which is not a UN member state but is a UN observer state). North Korea is unrecognised by a multitude of countries that have poor relations with it, most notably South Korea, which claims it. South Korea is unrecognised by North Korea, which claims it. An additional country that is unrecognised by at least one country is Armenia, which is strangely not recognised by Pakistan due to Pakistan's affinity with Turkey, which has poor relations with Armenia, though Turkey apparently recognises Armenia itself. So, these five countries can be subtracted from the total of 193 UN member states, leaving us with 188 apparently fully-recognised UN member states. However, with that being said, I can think of a few other countries that have somewhat ambiguous statuses of recognition. Those countries are (1) Mongolia, which may or may not be claimed by the ROC/Taiwan (it's complicated); bear in mind that any UN member states that have relations with the ROC/Taiwan but not with Mongolia (and also, not with China, on account of recognising the ROC/Taiwan instead) might actually side with the ROC/Taiwan government on this issue, though it is pretty unclear whether any of them do, especially since ROC/Taiwan itself is not clear on whether it recognises Mongolia or not; (2) Kuwait, which has been claimed as part of Iraq for decades, though it is unclear what the precise status of their relations is nowadays, and (3) Belize, which has been claimed as part of Guatemala for decades, though it is unclear whether Guatemala claims the entire country or rather just a significant portion of the country as part of its territory. Guatemala and Belize have embasssies in one another's territories despite their extremely poor relations. It's unclear whether either country actually recognises the other. Apart from Guatemela and Belize, another country that is involved in this dispute is Mexico, which also has territorial ambitions towards Belize. The United Kingdom is the former colonial government of Belize, though it does recognise Guatemela and Mexico. --> Overall, if these last three countries are subtracted from the previous total of 188 undisputed countries, we are left with 185, which is still a fairly high number, though a little lower. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 22:38, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Apparently, there are zero countries that have relations with the ROC/Taiwan and not with Mongolia. That is, every country that recognises the ROC/Taiwan simultaneously has relations with Mongolia. Obviously, the ROC/Taiwan's traditional claim to Mongolia is not being enforced very strongly these days, probably on account of the fact that the ROC/Taiwan has bigger problems to worry about. Mongolia lacks relations with six member states of the UN, and none of these countries have official diplomatic relations with the ROC/Taiwan. So, we can safely say that Mongolia doesn't make the list of "countries with disputed sovereignty". That still leaves Kuwait and Belize. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The Wikipedia article on Mongolian foreign relations seems to be out of date. I think Mongolia actually only lacks relations with three UN member states, those being Botswana, Barbados and Trinidad and Tobago, according to the article. So, Mongolia has relations with 190 out of 193 UN member states, as well as with Vatican City. Additionally, Kosovo, the ROC/Taiwan, the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (a sovereign entity with no territory), Cook Islands, Niue and a few constituent countries (including Aruba, Bermuda and the Cayman Islands) apparently lack relations with Mongolia. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 23:11, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
I didn't realise that Cyprus isn't recognised, though this makes sense. Turkey invaded northern Cyprus and established the Republic of Northern Cyprus, so it presumably doesn't recognise Cyprus for this reason. However, as you've pointed out, Vatican City has an undisputed status despite not being a member state of the United Nations, so the total is still 185–188. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 22:44, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Regarding the Cook Islands and Niue, neither country is truly (widely) recognised as a fully sovereign state. Instead, they are more like dependent states with a very high level of autonomy. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
when i was reading the lead, i was confused as to why the total count of states mentioned in the statement about the sovereignty dispute column (188 + 6 + 1 + 9 = 188 + 16 = 204) was not equal to the number of listed states (206). after looking at this talk page discussion, i can understand why, but it admittedly took me a while to find this discussion. should a footnote be added to the end of that sentence to explain the discrepancy to other readers so that they don't end up questioning their arithmetic skills and end up counting entries on the list manually, like myself?
on a related note, i was about to change some of the numbers that were spelt out in that paragraph ("two", "six", "one", and "nine") to numbers expressed using numerals in accordance with mos:numnotes, which states that "[c]omparable values should be all spelled out or all in figures, even if one of the numbers would normally be written differently", but i wanted to first check to see if there was a reason editors have left those numbers spelt out that was specific to this article. dying (talk) 08:30, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
We should probably have those numbers align, by adding "2 with a unique status" or similar to either 188 or 16. I don't think there's a specific reason some numbers are spelt out. CMD (talk) 08:57, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
oh, good idea. what do you think about this possibility?
The 206 listed states can be divided into three categories based on membership within the United Nations System: 193 member states,[1] 2 observer states and 11 other states. The sovereignty dispute column indicates states having undisputed sovereignty (188 states), states having disputed sovereignty (16 states, of which there are 6 member states, 1 observer state and 9 other states), and states having a special status (2 states).
i decided against using the word "unique" because it means that there's only one of its kind, and although there is only one such status, others might interpret the word to mean that there's only one state with such status, and consider the statement incorrect. however, i have no serious issues switching it back to "unique" if you prefer that wording. also, i used "having" instead of "with" to conform with the rest of the sentence. dying (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
Seems fine to me. - Wiz9999 (talk) 10:11, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
thanks for the feedback. i've incorporated the changes into the lead. feel free to revert or revise as needed. dying (talk) 03:56, 12 April 2021 (UTC)


References

  1. ^ Press Release ORG/1469 (3 July 2006). "United Nations Member States". United Nations. Archived from the original on 30 December 2013. Retrieved 3 November 2019.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link)

Criteria for inclusion

The "Criteria for inclusion" section of the article currently includes the following paragraph:

On the basis of the above criteria, this list includes the following 206 entities:[76][ah]
203 states recognised by at least one UN member state
Two states that satisfy the declarative theory of statehood and are recognised only by non-UN member states: Artsakh, Transnistria
One state that satisfies the declarative theory of statehood and is not recognised by any other state: Somaliland

However, I do not believe that it is correct that there are 203 states that are recognized *as sovereign states* by at least one UN member state. All 193 UN member states, Vatican City, Kosovo, Palestine, Taiwan and the SADR (Western Sahara) are recognized as sovereign states by a considerable number of states, which takes us to 198. Then there are two de-facto sovereign states within Georgian territory that are recognized as sovereign by Russia and a few other UN members: Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which takes us to 200. And then there is Northern Cyprus, a de-facto sovereign state recognized as sovereign only by Turkey, which takes us to 201. That means that, when the article claims that "203 states are recognized by at least one UN member," it is deeming the Cook Islands and Niue--free associated states within the Realm of New Zealand--as being "recognized" as sovereign by at least one UN member. I would posit that, while it certainly is true that the Cook Islands and Niue maintain diplomatic relations with quite a few states, it is done within the parameters permitted by New Zealand, and none of those UN member states that maintain diplomatic relations with the Cook Islands and Niue purport to be recognizing them as separate sovereign states from New Zealand.

While the Cook Islands and Niue are bound by their respective agreements with New Zealand, they carry themselves as if they were sovereign states and are able to enter into "relations" with other sovereign states, so they could be deemed to satisfy the declarative theory of statehood.

I propose that the paragraph be rewritten to read:

On the basis of the above criteria, this list includes the following 206 entities:[76][ah]
201 states recognised by at least one UN member state
Two states that satisfy the declarative theory of statehood and have diplomatic relations with at least one UN member state, but are not recognised as sovereign by any other state: the Cook Islands, Niue
Two states that satisfy the declarative theory of statehood and are recognised only by non-UN member states: Artsakh, Transnistria
One state that satisfies the declarative theory of statehood and is not recognised by any other state: Somaliland

What do other editors think? AuH2ORepublican (talk) 02:02, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Per Talk:List of sovereign states/Cook Islands and Niue, CI and Niue are actually included because of their recognition from other states, which recognise them as separate from New Zealand. I don't remember us having sources of their meeting the declarative theory. CMD (talk) 02:28, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
Wow, that's a lot of info (and even more unsourced opinion) in that Talk page, thanks for sharing. I remain unconvinced that the diplomatic relations that the Cook Islands and Niue have established constitute recognition of their sovereignty*, but obviously a consensus was reached after much debate and I'm not going to open that can of worms, at least not until other editors express skepticism of deeming those two associated states of New Zealand to have been "recognized as sovereign" by other countries.
  • For example, in the joint statement by Niue and the People's Republic of China, Niue expressed that there was only one China, that the PRC was its true government, that Taiwan was an integral part of the one and only China and that Niue would never have relations with the rebegade government of Taiwan; meanwhile, this all that the PRC had to say about Niue: "The Government of the People's Republic of China supports the Government of Niue in its aspirations to protect, retain and develop the culture of Niue and to participate to the greatest possible extent in international and regional activities." That's not exactly a ringing endorsement of its sovereignty; it's a very carefully worded statement that seems to acknowledge that Niue does not have free reign to participate in international activities (which is why it speaks of supporting the "aspirations" of Niue to participate "to the greatest possible extent" in international and regional activities. A sovereign state usually can participate in whatever international activities that it wants; it is those who are limited in their sovereignty that merely may "aspire" to participate "to the greatest possible extent"(i.e ., to the extent that New Zealand lets it) in international activities. If this is the best evidence that editors could find of countries recognizing Niue's "sovereignty," then evidence of Niue being recognized as soveeignn must not be very strog. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 03:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
On unsourced opinions, if you have a source the two meet the declarative theory, that would be quite a useful addition to the topic as to my memory we couldn't find one at the time. More sources in general are useful actually, I collected a few at the time, but it's so long ago they're mostly dead now. On couched language, I made similar points at the time, but as you note there was much debate (part of a wider discussion on the overall criteria, which was even longer) and the consensus landed where it did. CMD (talk) 04:34, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree that the current wording used here in the criteria is slightly deficient. However, if it has remained without issue in regards to the Cook Islands and to Nuie in all the time since the earlier debate linked by Chipmunkdavis, should we really be considering changing it? If it ain't broke don't fix it, as the saying goes.
Besides, every time I read any document regarding the sovereignty of these two state the wording used is always intentionally grey in terms of them being dependent territories or fully sovereign states. This vagueness is clearly by design on the part of governments involved, we shouldn't be trying to neatly categorise them into one compartment or another and just accept that they both exist somewhere on the scale of sovereignty, but that exact position cannot be precisely defined. - Wiz9999 (talk) 04:15, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
After reading that voluminous Talk gage duscussion from all of those years ago, I decided to desist from touching that subject with a ten-foot poll. So I agree 100% to leave things as they are until something happens with the Cook Islands or Niue one way or the other. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 04:35, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I think it has to do with "full treaty making capacity" (see List of treaties by number of parties). "The maximum number of state ratifications that a multilateral treaty can have is usually 197; this total consists of all 193 UN member states; both UN observers, the Holy See and State of Palestine; and the Cook Islands and Niue." Selfstudier (talk) 14:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The justification for including the Cook Islands and Niue is recognition by another sovereign state. I believe there were two fairly clear-cut examples for the Cook Islands and one more arguable one for Niue.
But these are - by some distance - the two most awkward edge cases for this article. Far worse than the cases that get brought up more frequently on talk. The consensus to include was reached only after mountains of talk page discussion. Consensus can change, so we can't rule out ever reconsidering their inclusion, though I think most of those involved before would rather we didn't. Fact is, any decision we reach - either way - will be unsatisfactory because these are genuine edge cases, whose governments are deliberately ambiguous about their status. Kahastok talk 15:10, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

This is not to argue with anybody, but here is one more reliable source supporting their inclusion: "In addition to receiving significant amounts of financial assistance, as well as delegating authority in such areas as monetary policy or defense to their former metropolitan power, the Cook Islanders and Niueans have remained New Zealand citizens, and their territories have remained treated as part of New Zealand for the purpose of obtaining its citizenship. The existence of such arrangements has been a source of confusion. In particular, it has raised the question of the compatibility of free association and shared citizenship with sovereign statehood. This chapter addresses this question and argues that despite their miniscule size and close association with New Zealand, both the Cook Islands and Niue can and should be seen as sovereign states." [15] Ladril (talk) 22:14, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

Vatican City and Holy See

By this source Holy See is the name of the sovereign state and Vatican City is its capital. Delasse (talk) 11:15, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

The Holy See is the sovereign entity the U.S. and other countries have relations with, with its headquarters in Vatican City but authority outside of the state, but the state itself is Vatican City. Astrofreak92 (talk) 21:46, 18 June 2021 (UTC)
I would say that the state itself is Holy See (also called simply Vatican), and Vatican City is the capital and the only city of this state. Delasse (talk) 11:20, 19 June 2021 (UTC)
This is a complex legal and diplomatic debate, but the Holy See and the Vatican City are separate legal entities for the purposes of international law. Though sovereign in international law and having ex oficio control over the city, the Holy See is not itself territorial in nature and thus cannot be called a state by the definition in this article, only Vatican City can be. It's a similar situation to the Knights of Malta, which is a sovereign entity with defined citizens and international recognition but no territory. Astrofreak92 (talk) 18:25, 19 June 2021 (UTC)

Koreas and Congos

I believe that North and South Korea should be alphabetized standardly (in other words, North Korea by "N", South Korea by "S", rather than both by "K"). This is the order all other "North" and "South" countries take (North Macedonia, South Africa, South Sudan, South Ossetia). I also think sorting the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the Republic of the Congo (DRC by "D" and RotC by "R", rather than both by "C") would be useful. (I initially raised this point at Template talk:Asia topic, where I got some support but was advised to take it here.) AllegedlyHuman (talk) 04:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Can you demonstrate that this is what other similar sources do?
The difference in the case of the Koreas is that the North and South are informal disambiguators. In the other cases you cite the North or South is an integral part of the name. If they aren't going at "K", it's not obvious that the correct place is not at "D" and "R", in the same way as you propose for the two Congos. For example, at Olympic Opening ceremonies when the North Koreans have refused to march near the South Koreans, they've generally got around it by alphabetising North Korea based on (the local translation of) "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".
I would find it decidedly odd to put the Republic of the Congo under "R", because that's now how I would expect lists to do it. I think you'll really struggle to find sources that do this. I think there may be sources that list the DRC under "D", but I think it's more logical to be consistent with what we do with other states, which is to disregard the long form descriptors.
My own view is that the status quo is more logical and more consistent with what we do in other cases. Kahastok talk 15:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
Oppose No, we shouldn't do that. Unlike North Macedonia, South Africa, South Sudan, and South Ossetia (these are real country names), North Korea and South Korea are not real country names. Officially, there is no North Korea or South Korea exists in our world. Their official names are the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) and the Republic of Korea (ROK) respectively, we call them North Korea and South Korea just for convenience. The international standard practice is listing both countries under K, not N, S, D or R. It's the same for both Congos, they should be listed under C instead of D or R. 2001:8003:9008:1301:7C69:518E:BF9:550D (talk) 14:19, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan sovereignty recognition issue

Islamic emirate of Afghanistan is the present name for the government of the disputed Afghanistan after the recent power change. It's recognition is partial in global community. If the government in exile Islamic republic of Afghanistan is meant then, does it have enough criterion to be called sovereign state? SrihariPKurudi (talk) 19:21, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

It's a sovereign state regardless of the government. Venezuela's government is also disputed but it's not mentioned here. I wouldn't change the full name of the country, though, unless it is recognized. It's similar to the naming of Burma/Myanmar controversy. TFD (talk) 22:15, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
The Islamic Republic is no longer a state as it has none of the four elements of statehood. It should be removed, bearing in mind that this is not a list of UN members. Ythlev (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
The state remains Afghanistan, although I feel there's a discussion to be had about the presentation of the formal name. CMD (talk) 14:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Hmm, complicated. No-one has recognized the Islamic emirate as yet but some have said they will if.... I guess we will have to wait and see. There is also the question of representation at the UN.Selfstudier (talk) 16:12, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
I am rather inclined to defer to the article at Afghanistan for flag and formal name, since that saves us reinventing the wheel. However, insofar as the Islamic Republic is still recognised internationally as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, this needs to be mentioned in the Further information column. Kahastok talk 16:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as well.Selfstudier (talk) 17:25, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Status of Palestine, the Cook Islands and Niue

According to ISO 3166-1, Palestine, the Cook Islands and Niue are not independent countries. From my understanding, the Cook Islands and Niue are constituent states of New Zealand, they are not fully independent and their citizens are actually New Zealand citizens. Although they enjoyed far more autonomy than other ordinary dependent territories and can cast votes independently within the United Nations System just like any other country, they are not technically fully sovereign states. As for Palestine, it is a sovereign political entity which has limited control over their claimed territory. For comparison, it is an entity sitting somewhere between the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (a sovereign entity with no control over any territory) and the Holy See (a sovereign entity with absolute control over a defined territory which makes it a fully sovereign state).

In my point of view, only political entities which tick all the boxes could attain the status of a sovereign state and we should place all three of the above-mentioned entities under the "Other states" section, together with those partially recognized states. 2001:8003:9008:1301:F0D6:2B9B:76:77AE (talk) 08:28, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Hi IP, please see the List of sovereign states#Criteria for inclusion section, which explains the inclusion criteria here. There's no right answer, but the system here uses some criteria which can be verified through external WP:Reliable sources. Best, CMD (talk) 08:39, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
I noticed that the Cook Islands and Niue have also been listed as non-sovereign territories in the article Dependent territory. This is inappropriate and not acceptable. How can a political entity be both a sovereign state and a dependent territory at the same time? I think we should reach a consensus about these two entities and make some adjustments to these articles accordingly. 2001:8003:9008:1301:F0D6:2B9B:76:77AE (talk) 08:48, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
That shows the inherent synthesis of this article. It can only be a list of countries recognized as independent by Wikipedia editors. You can search the archives where these countries have been discussed many times. New Zealand reported to the UN that the two territories had become associated states, but that they were not "independent," which is self-contradictory. Also note that New Zealanders retained British nationality long after the country was recognized as sovereign. In fact British subjecthood was never formally extinguished, just effectively superseded by separate citizenship acts in each Commonwealth state. TFD (talk) 09:37, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
The ISO criterion "independent" is paywalled so it's not precisely clear what it means, in the case of Palestine one can perhaps assume they refer to the fact of it being occupied as restricting its "independence", yet it has declared independence and it has recognition as a state. As for partially recognized states note that also includes Israel. So I think this proposal is not a good idea all in all.Selfstudier (talk) 10:17, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Chances are, if there are objective criteria, it relies on recognition by the P5 and/or UN membership. Of course, the ISO is not required to follow an WP:NPOV as we are.
Ultimately, if the OP has suggestions for consistent and neutral new inclusion criteria and splitting criteria then they are of course welcome to propose them. But the status quo is a compromise based on the fact that there is no perfect way of doing this. To that end, before proposing a new rule, the OP would be well-advised to review the archives on the topic, where many of the plausible alternatives were discussed in detail. Note that the archives on these topics are long enough to fill a 750-page book. This really was discussed in minute detail. Kahastok talk 21:01, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't quite understand what you are proposing here. Are you suggesting that we should group these countries into two categories, one called "Sovereign states" which consists of the 193 UN member states plus the Holy See, and the other one called "Other states" which consists of Palestine, the Cook Islands, Niue and some de facto states? Just for your information, the Cook Islands, Niue and the de facto states are already included under the "Other states" category, so basically you were proposing that we move Palestine to "Other states" and change the first category to "Sovereign states"? I wouldn't support such proposal though, because the term "sovereign state" is difficult to define, people may argue that those "Other states" are also sovereign states. I reckon the list in its current format is appropriate.
As for the Cook Islands and Niue being listed as non-sovereign territories in the article dependent territory, I reckon we should change that. I don't think double listing these two areas as sovereign states and dependent territories is appropriate. Since the consensus here is that both the Cook Islands and Niue are sovereign states, I reckon we should remove both entities from the "Lists of dependent territories" and place them under the "Lists of similar entities" instead. Vic Park (talk) 12:22, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

How states should be grouped in the list?

Observer states should not be grouped together with UN member states, instead they should be included in other states. Palestine is much closer in sovereignty status to Kosovo than to a UN member state. --Somerby (talk) 10:28, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Your edit has been reverted per the warning notices at the top of this talk page, consensus is required for changes of this type.(In addition, note that Arbpia warning notices for Israel Palestine related content have been added to this page).Selfstudier (talk) 10:52, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Selfstudier, do you agree with my proposal in essence? --Somerby (talk) 11:09, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Apart from the discussion in the section just prior to this one, these matters have been discussed in grinding detail previously, maybe have a look in the archives. There have also been similar discussions at other related list articles. I daresay there will be further such discussions in the future since everyone seems to have slightly different opinions about it. This a list of sovereign states primarily, the UN status (or "limited recognition" status) is not the principal point of the list but if the UN has recognized status as a state (yes for Palestine, Holy See, no for Kosovo and some others), then why would you need to further distinguish based on observer status? Selfstudier (talk) 11:20, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Selfstudier what made you think that the UN recognize Palestine as more sovereign entity than for instance the Cook Islands? They are all states, some other states recognize them sovereign, some not. This is perfectly well described in List of states with limited recognition. Kosovo is also a state, although not all UN members recognize its sovereignty. There is even a state (yes, everyone agree that Somaliland is perfect state, much more stable than UN member Somalia) whose sovereignty is not recognised by any other state. And if you divide this list of sovereign states into two groups than they should be "UN member states" and "Other states". --Somerby (talk) 11:56, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
So you said, I don't agree.Selfstudier (talk) 12:23, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
Oppose I don't agree. In my opinion, all 206 countries listed in this article can be breakdown into 4 categories:
1. 193 UN member states;
2. 2 UN observer states (the Holy See and Palestine);
3. 3 states which are members of at least one UN specialized agency (the Cook Islands, Niue, and Kosovo);
4. 8 states outside the United Nations System (Taiwan, the SADR, and Somaliland etc.).
Personally, I prefer to list them under 4 categories, but if the consensus here is to group them into two categories, I reckon the best dividing line should be between either "2." and "3." (current format) or "3." and "4." (still okay for me) instead of "1." and "2." (your proposal). Vic Park (talk) 01:41, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
  • I also prefer to group them under 4 categories. But if to group them into two categories, I think that the dividing line should be between "1." and "2." --Somerby (talk) 08:49, 7 October 2021 (UTC)
  • Me personally, I prefer to list them under 4 categories, but if the consensus here is to group them into two categories, I believe the best dividing line should be between "3." and "4." --Lagelander (talk) 09:59, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Israel text.

This edit altered long standing text "Israel exerts strong control over the territory" to "Israel controls to some degree.." I amended the dilution to "Israel occupies..", which is actually the clearest explanation of the degree of control. This has been reverted here with edit summary "not everyone agrees that Gaza is occupied (rather than put under siege/blockade)" but the lead for Gaza states "Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza, the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel" so this reason for reverting is incorrect.Selfstudier (talk) 09:40, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

First of all, "Israel exerts strong control over the territory" is the stable version so any change requires a consensus. I didn't notice the previous change and I'm fine with this wording as well. While it may not be apparent from the Gaza article lede, there is a disagreement on whether the Gaza strip is occupied or not, considering that there are no Israeli forces occupying and and that Israel doesn't control all of its borders. The existing note explains these varying degrees of control. Alaexis¿question? 11:32, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Since this matter has come up, I dispute the characterization as it currently appears. The fact that the IMoFA (guilty always dispute their guilt), Dore Gold and some other POV sources (overcited) indicates disagreement, that is not in fact the case, "considered by some" is nonsense, it is generally agreed that Gaza is "occupied" precisely because of the degree of control exercised.Selfstudier (talk) 13:01, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The Gaza Strip lede you referenced cites a couple of scholarly articles which argue that Gaza is still occupied. Of course it's just as easy to find articles which argue the opposite. Encyclopedia Britannica has the section on occupation followed by the section on Hamas rule. The degree of control exercised by Israel is different in East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza is different and the note explains it so that no reader would be misled. Replacing the long-standing neutral wording with "occupies" is not NPOV. Alaexis¿question? 19:22, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

The Afghanistan problem

I suggest this solution to our Afghanistan problem:

  • The short name, formal name and flag are those given our article Afghanistan. Consensus there is to use the name and flag of the current ruling authority, i.e. the Taliban.
  • We add a new text explaining the situation in the Further information column.
  • We change the footnote at the top of the column to include Any alternative governments recognised by at least one state (irrespective of whether they have a government in exile).

I have some comments to make.

I actually think it is probably a violation of WP:WEIGHT for us to accept the Taliban flag and nomenclature for Afghanistan, given that they are not recognised as legitimate internationally. However, the issues at stake are exactly the same as at Afghanistan, and I see no value in rediscussing the point at every article independently.

I would note that the argument that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is still the UN member is irrelevant to the choice of name and flag because this is not Member states of the United Nations.

It seems to me that the presence or absence of a government in exile is not the relevant point, it is whether an alternative government is recognised. In this case, it is not obvious that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan still exists even as a government-in-exile. But, whether it exists or not, it is recognised by countries throughout the world and is represented at the UN, so it needs to be mentioned.

I will WP:BOLDly implement this suggestion in the article, but I have no doubt that people will continue to change it. I think changes need to be discussed here, rather than just with drive-by edits. I note that it is not immediately obvious what the current standing consensus is, since the article has not really been stable since the Fall of Kabul. But I suspect that it still refers to the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Kahastok talk 11:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I would say there is not a strong consensus to use the flag at Afghanistan, it has taken its place through sheer force of edits, but this is probably not worth rediscussing as noted. I previously proposed at the template data that a default question mark flag be used, which may work here. Do we have sources on the alternative government being recently recognised as the government? My understanding is that even Panjshir, for that brief period, gave no official position on the old government. CMD (talk) 14:41, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
On the latter point, I must admit, it's my assumption based on my understanding that they haven't done anything at all other than refuse to recognise the new government. That, and the old flag still flies over the embassies. But when I tried briefly to find a source it was not forthcoming. I'm open to changing the wording if we can't prove the claim I put in, but I do think we need to put something there. Kahastok talk 15:08, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Is this the latest UNSC res? "Noting that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is not recognized at the United Nations, and furthermore that the UN Security Council does not support the restoration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan"? Selfstudier (talk) 15:30, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
Thinking over your first point, if the current flag at Afghanistan is dropped then I think it depends on why. If it's because we don't know what the Taliban flag looks like (and I don't know how definitive the sourcing for it is), then yes, the question mark flag is appropriate. If it's because of WP:WEIGHT concerns such as I expressed above, then I think  Afghanistan is better because in that case we're saying we don't think it's neutral to give a flag. Kahastok talk 16:07, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

User:Svito3. If you revert per WP:BRD then you need to join the discussion. If you are not prepared to discuss your objection, then don't revert.

The claim in this edit summary, "we specificially list states as recognized by UN: note is sufficent" is factually wrong.

First, the UN does not recognise states at all. It recognises governments of states that have been accepted for membership.

Second, no part of our inclusion criteria or other descriptions of this list requires that we use the flag and name preferred by the current UN delegation. There are several instances where we differ from the UN in this area. And that's before we start discussing the 13 entities listed here that are not UN member states, and 11 that are also not UN observer states.

If you're looking for the list of UN member states, you can find it at member states of the United Nations.

Because of this, using the old flag and name with a footnote, The United Nations currently recognizes the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as the government of Afghanistan instead of the de facto ruling government is unacceptable to me. The fact that the UN recognises the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan does not explain why we would list it here, when even our own article Afghanistan uses the Taliban name and flag. Kahastok talk 16:07, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

This is your own interpretation of WP:BRD and you just started an edit war. -- Svito3 (talk) 18:13, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
The name of the UN member state is Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. It isn't clear whether the Taliban wants to rename the state *officially*, but if it does, it needs to (i) gain recognition as the legitimate government of Afdhanistan and (ii) gain acceptance of its preferred name for the country. Until such things tke place, we should not change the country's name in the article. AuH2ORepublican (talk) 03:12, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I mostly agree with AuH20Republican here, the UNSC resolution I posted above goes out of its way to refer to the "Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" but avoids this usage when speaking of the Emirate or instead refers to the Taliban, it is not clear whether they mean a government or a state or they mean to refer to both as unwelcome (the wording suggests the latter). The country name is an ISO thing and won't happen if the UNSC opposes it.Selfstudier (talk) 10:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
OK, so, my questions here are:
  • What particular circumstances on this list justify our not simply adopting the usage on the article Afghanistan?
  • In particular, you argue that the country name listed here "is an ISO thing" and imply that we should feel bound by the UN's decisions. On what basis do you argue this?
When answering, I ask that you consider that this is explicitly not a list of member states of the United Nations, nor a copy of ISO 3166-1. Because of this, there are already states listed here under names that are different from those found on ISO 3166-1. There are also states listed here that are not found on any ISO list at all. Kahastok talk 10:51, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Well, we have discussed this before in other contexts, I don't really think that WP editors should be making up rules in this area, I realize there is a long standing consensus about which states to include but the weakness has been shown with the current case (and Myanmar as well?).Selfstudier (talk) 10:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
The weakness here is expected from reflecting real-world difficulty in a simple list, especially when dealing with a dynamic situation that external sources do not have a clear line on. That would be challenging in any rules framework. It is not exactly the situation that the IRA is itself a UN member, the nebulous entity of Afghanistan is the UN member, and names and governments often change without affecting membership, although the UN can choose representatives. I think this discussion should separate the issue of the note in the extent, and the flag/name. The government note is currently done for Syria, and seems reasonable if only to reduce continued drive-bys. The flag/name is trickier, as these are specifically representative symbols, and so the situation hinges on how to interpret what representation means. (This is not something Talk:Afghanistan has grappled with in any real capacity.) CMD (talk) 11:52, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
If it occurs, to take one possible outcome, that Iran were to recognize the Emirate, then we would have to include it in this list, am I right? Selfstudier (talk) 12:38, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
If Iran recognised it as a separate new state to the existing state of Afghanistan, then that meets our criteria. However, this seems unlikely. CMD (talk) 13:49, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


I don't see why our limitation in being a simple list is substantially different to Afghanistan's limitation in having a simple infobox. They have just one flag and just one name, and so do we. If they didn't grapple with it in the (remarkably short) RFC that they had at Talk:Afghanistan, perhaps we should push them to reconsider the question through a new RFC (advertised on WP:CENT, that runs at least a week). I have not yet seen any good reason to deviate from the principle that we should follow their consensus, whatever it is.
Other options that they (and therefore we) could adopt might be no flag or full name, or both flags and full names. I believe we did something like this for Syria earlier in the war, and something like the following table could be possible.
Sample table collapsed for brevity Kahastok talk 16:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Common and formal names Membership within the UN System Sovereignty dispute Further information on status and recognition of sovereignty
 Afghanistan –

 Islamic Republic of Afghanistan
 Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

A UN member state A None Insert text here

Where obviously "insert text here" is replaced with an appropriate and sourced description for the situation, and the header footnotes are not removed.

Kahastok talk 16:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
The RfC was remarkably short because it was closed by the person who opened it, but you're right the simplicity is a real issue in both cases. I would prefer no flag and no long name to a doubling, although I won't strongly object if others feel otherwise. CMD (talk) 01:22, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Gonna be WP:BOLD and acknowledge the status of the IEA in the notes column; i think this is the best option as the IRA is still recognized by the UN and the table does mention UN member states, but it is critical for accuracy's sake that the IEA is acknowledged. WittyWidi (talk) 21:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Is Taiwan still an observer in one UN specialized agency?

It is written that Taiwan is an observer in World Health Organization under the name "Chinese Taipei". But in reality the government of Taiwan was only allowed to participate as an observer from 2009 to 2016, but has not been invited again since: Timsit, Anabel; Hui, Mary (16 May 2020). "Taiwan's status could disrupt the most important global health meeting of this pandemic". Quartz. Archived from the original on 6 June 2020. Retrieved 6 June 2020.. Thus if there is no objection I will remove this claim from the article. --Somerby (talk) 22:26, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

maybe add a rederict listing for "Western Sahara" that leads the reader to the Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic?

it's the more common name for the region/nation/whatever you call it — Preceding unsigned comment added by H. Iristine (talk • contribs) 00:42, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done --Somerby (talk) 06:21, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

UN-controlled article?

Unless we're declaring that the UN is the sole decider of the content of this article? The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is a fact, where's the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan no longer exists. We should be reflecting what is, not what the UN wants. GoodDay (talk) 21:27, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

I sometimes wish that it was the case that the UN be sole decider, life would be so much simpler. As it stands though, the criteria are clearly NOT based on the UN deciding who's in and who is out. In fact, if a single UN state were to recognize the Emirate, it would be in as I understand it but we are still waiting on such an event.Selfstudier (talk) 21:33, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
As discussed above, I feel we should be doing whatever the article at Afghanistan does. It makes little sense to me that we should take a different view, since there is no particular circumstance that applies here that does not also apply there.
This argument is rather undermined by the fact that the status quo there is based on a consensus at Talk:Afghanistan that is on pretty dodgy ground. That consensus is based on an RFC that was closed by the person who opened it after less than two days.
There is a current RFC at Talk:Afghanistan, and I would invite interested editors here to contribute to it. However, that too is limited narrowly to the flag in the infobox, explicitly excluding the name, which would still be listed based on the flawed RFC. So I don't actually think that resolves the problem. Kahastok talk 21:48, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree with GoodDay. Wikipedia's content is based on reliable sources, not the desires of the UN, which is a political body. RS state that Taiwan is sovereign and the government of Afghanistan is the Islamic Emirate. There is no reason why our list of sovereign states shouldn't reflect that. ― Tartan357 Talk 05:39, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
But that perspective is not accepted by any other government on the entire planet. And based on WP:WEIGHT, there's at least a reasonable argument that says that that POV is significant and needs to be taken into account. Kahastok talk 20:07, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
The Taliban are in control of Afghanistan, now. It's simply a fact. GoodDay (talk) 23:18, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
U.N. Seats Denied, for Now, to Afghanistan’s Taliban and Myanmar’s Junta De facto and de jure are different though.Selfstudier (talk) 00:07, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 7 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 13:17, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

List of sovereign states → List of countries – The definitions of country, nation and state are often controversial, somehow arbitrary, but not all countries are sovereign states (and viceversa). The current naming convention is countries (e.g. Lists of countries, Category:Lists of countries, Lists of countries and territories), which I consider to be more appropriate. Therefore, in accordance with the applicable policies and guidelines, especially our article titling policy and the guideline on disambiguation and primary topics, I propose to rename this page List of countries, which is currently a redirect. Thanks in advance, Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 08:25, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Around a decade ago we had a number of moves towards titles including "state". This was due to continuing disruption regarding the additions of England, Scotland, and sometimes Wales and Northern Ireland to such lists. The phrasing "not all countries are sovereign states" in the opener above is a reminder of that disruption, and specifically confusing with regards to this RM as it seems to imply a goal of having more entries in this list than we currently do. CMD (talk) 08:47, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose We have Sovereignty, Sovereign state and defined inclusion criteria for this article based around those. One could try to make a separate list of countries based on Country and some other criteria but why disturb this one? Selfstudier (talk) 09:36, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Sovereign state is much more WP:PRECISE than country or nation which can be non-sovereign. --Heanor (talk) 09:38, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose Countries are not necessarily sovereign. Dimadick (talk) 12:41, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • To editor Dimadick: That's what I said.
    @Chipmunkdavis, Heanor, and Selfstudier: IMHO, 'Sovereign states' should be a section of List of countries. There's no point in creating a duplicate for such a small difference; we could better work on a single List of countries with two sections (Sovereign, Non-Sovereign). Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 16:18, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
    • @Est. 2021: the problem is that is a Sovereign state is a good-defined subject, a non-sovereign state is not. Depending on the context, the term non-sovereign nation, non-sovereign state or non-sovereign country, could mean many things. The subject non-sovereign state/nation/country is not well-defined. --Heanor (talk) 16:36, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
    • The question "why disturb this one?" remains. If we include other entities that do not fit the inclusion criteria for this list, then we would have to change the title, the inclusion criteria and the format for no obvious benefit. Member states of the United Nations has 193 entries, all sovereign states, a "small difference" compared to this one so it is not an issue to have different lists with different inclusion criteria. Why not include dependencies as well? Selfstudier (talk) 16:59, 7 February 2022 (UTC)]
  • Oppose this is a list of sovereign states and not all countries are sovereign states such as UK countries. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:29, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose. This edit demonstrates amply why this move is a bad idea. The proposal here is that Wikipedia should not have a list of sovereign states - a list you would expect to find in any reputable encyclopedia - but instead should replace it will an arbitrary list of whatever somebody has decided counts as a "country". Our experience on this and other articles is that everybody believes that they know what a "country" is, and believes their definition is universal. But no two people have the same definition. And nobody is able to provide a source that backs their definition. Kahastok talk 18:00, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose per WP:PRECISION. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:21, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is a "List of sovereign states" not all states are sovereign in the world, there are many un-sovereign & self-declared states. Ytpks896 (talk) 13:32, 12 February 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Donetsk and Luhansk (again)

These two entities have been brought up ad nauseam, but especially given recent developments, I figure they deserve a closer look. There's two things I think are worth examining:

1: The prospect of Russian recognition. The Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) are currently only recognized by each other (which is irrelevant) and by South Ossetia, itself not recognized by the UN or most nations. But recently, Russia's legislature passed a law that recognizes Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states. The law has not taken effect yet, since President Vladimir Putin has yet to sign or veto the law. But in the very possible scenario that the law is signed (or the legislature overrides a Putin veto), would that not be sufficient to consider adding both entities to the list of non-UN states? They'd be the only entities recognized by any UN member state not considered by this article to be sovereign states (except the Sovereign Military Order of Malta, which controls and claims literally no territory).

2: A source discussing the Montevideo declarative theory of statehood. Previous attempts to add Donetsk and Luhansk to the list of sovereign states were shot down because no academic or otherwise reliable source described either entity as specifically qualifying as de facto states under the declarative theory of statehood. However, a 2020 issue of the Washington University Global Studies Law Review (more specifically pages 13-21) explicitly examines whether Donetsk or Luhansk meet the declarative theory of statehood set up by the Montevideo Convention. Here is what the source concludes regarding the four criteria, though if you're curious for context you can read it yourself:

  • A permanent population: "...both proto-states satisfy this criterion."
  • A defined territory: "Because both breakaway regions have maintained fairly well defined borders with Ukraine (and firmly fixed borders with Russia, their only other neighbor), they likely satisfy the second Montevideo criterion." (bold emphasis mine)
  • Government: "...the DPR and LPR possess sufficient governments de jure and de facto to suffice for Montevideo statehood analysis."
  • A capacity to enter into relations with the other states: "[Donetsk and Luhansk] satisfy the formal independence requirement," but aside from an alleged email leak implying direct Russian control over the separatist governments (which Russia denies), "evidence of Russian influence in the DPR and LPR is extensive, but circumstantial as regards direct control of governmental functions," although "given the principle that the Montevideo factors should be applied flexibly, such sparse circumstantial evidence may not undermine the argument for DPR and LPR statehood." (bold emphasis mine)

The source concludes that "the Donetsk and Lugansk Peoples' Republics plausibly meet the Montevideo criteria for statehood" (bold emphasis mine). Some of the language used is definitive, particularly for criteria 1 and 3, but clearly there is room for interpretation with the wording used. Still, I would argue that the source makes clear that Donetsk and Luhansk qualify as de facto sovereign states under the Montevideo declarative theory of statehood, and that their inclusion into this article should at least be reconsidered.

Also, given the recent growing intensity of the information war of the Russo-Ukrainian conflict and the timing of this post, I should probably add that for anyone concerned, I'm not pro-Russia, and I think that the separatists are repressive, illegal, warmongering Russian proxies that do not speak for the people of Donetsk or Luhansk. AxolotlsAreCool (talk) 05:09, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Regarding point 1, I believe there is a general consensus that an explicit recognition would be enough to cause inclusion on this list based on the existing inclusion criteria consensus. (The less nuance in that recognition and in secondary sources reporting on it the better, for example the recent Somaliland-Taiwan situation is not easy to place.) Regarding point 2, that is an appreciated paper, the sort we have been looking for. I do not think by itself is enough to change the list, not least due to the author's hedging, but it is a good start towards building the case. CMD (talk) 07:40, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
As a side note, even for "established" states with limited recognition, the sources usually stop short of saying that they fully satisfy the fourth requirement, as most of these states depend to a large extent on other states (Russia, Turkey, Armenia). Alaexis¿question? 08:25, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
We cite a source that is pretty unequivocal on this point for the three cases where it makes a difference:

three other territories that have unilaterally declared independence and are generally regarded as having met the Montevideo criteria for statehood but have not been recognized by any states: Transnistria, Nagorny Karabakh, and Somaliland.

In most cases it doesn't make a difference because there is recognition from at least one UN member state.
The source noted above is not new, and has been discussed before at the states with limited recognition page. The problem with it is that doesn't demonstrate that they are generally regarded as having met the Montevideo criteria, or even that the author believes they meet the criteria. Only that they might be argued to meet the criteria, a far weaker statement.
As per CMD, if Russia does actually recognises them as sovereign states, then that makes a difference. In that case, the current consensus inclusion criteria would require that we include them. Kahastok talk 18:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Putin has signed the decree, meaning that Russia now officially recognizes the independence of Donetsk and Luhansk. I’d say they should probably be added to the article now. AxolotlsAreCool (talk) 19:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
Russia now officially recognizes both as independent, the declarative theory discussion is therefore moot, as recognition by a UN member (which Russia is) satisfies the inclusion criteria. [16]XavierGreen (talk) 21:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support inclusion per the news today that Russia has recognised the states. They've also been de facto states on the ground for some time, albeit that that may not have satisfied the criteria until today.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:00, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per above. Paradox NiteOwl (talk) 23:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Support per above discussion. --Jrcraft Yt (talk) 01:12, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
  • Include both: The recognition by Russia clearly satisfies one of our established criteria. We don't need to waste our time assessing the declarative theory, which is always a murky and time-consuming process. ― Tartan357 Talk 10:37, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
Include Both Both entities are de facto states and should be included in the list. In my opinion, the only one worth debating is Somaliland which has gained 0 diplomatic recognitions among the international community. 2001:8003:9008:1301:6529:9ABE:CDA8:3410 (talk) 12:21, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Kosovo

Kosovo should be moved to the main list, the one that has Israel, North and South Korea and the like. This is because reliable sources are unanimous in their verdict that Kosovo is a fully fledged sovereign state. Own flag, own anthem, own custom, one control of 100% of territory. Recognized by majority of UN. So all that is required is a purple tag saying "partially unrecognized" to show Serbia's disapproval (and its backer Russia, I don't think there are any important countries that don't recognize Kosovo). --Thelostranger (talk) 16:36, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Kosovo is not UN member state  Rafael Ronen  17:10, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be. Only in 2002 Switzerland only joined the UN. So, are you claiming Switzerland pre-2002 was not sovereign? --Thelostranger (talk) 08:56, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The top list is "UN member states and General Assembly observer states". It should therefore not include entities that are neither UN member states of General Assembly observer states.
If your argument relies on stating that the likes of China, Brazil and India are not "important countries", then I suggest you reassess it. Kahastok talk 09:17, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
OK I see from the layout Kosovo does not belong on the UN list for the time being. I'm sure it is a matter of time before Serbia recognizes it because ordinary Serbs so desperately want to put the past behind them and join the EU and NATO. Still, that is not my discussion point. I don't believe Palestine should have better standing than Kosovo, and I oppose Kosovo sitting in a box with illegal states such as Artsakh. Basically, Kosovo controls all of its territory. Palestine does not. Plus Kosovo has far more recognition than Artsakh. So dumping Kosovo in the offender's table is a breach of NPOV. --Thelostranger (talk) 11:43, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
If you search the archives for Kosovo, you will see that both Kosovo and the way the list is put together have been discussed before, ad nauseum. If you have another suggestion for splitting the list, what is it? Selfstudier (talk) 13:09, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Well I could think of two things. First forget about the UN. You don't have to be a member or an observer to be a sovereign country. Switzerland wasn't before 2002, so where would one have put them if the page was created before then? Kosovo needs its own proivate box, for sovereign nations mostly outside of the UN. It should not be, and it is offensive that it is, in the same list as Artsakh and Abkhazia, Two fake Russian-held territories. --Thelostranger (talk) 12:33, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Why should we "forget about the UN" to accommodate Kosovo or any other similar? Switzerland was an observer state prior to full membership. Specify the criteria for the "private box"?
Perhaps you could create a new list, List of sovereign countries, define some criteria for membership of the list in such a way as to guarantee the inclusion of Kosovo and you have solved your problem without the need to disturb this list. Then many people would likely come to complain that one or other should or shouldn't be in that list. You see the problem? Selfstudier (talk) 12:52, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Thanks. I hardly know where to begin, but let's see.
  • Has own anthem
  • Has own flag
  • Has own government
  • Has own police force
  • Has own army
  • Has own constitution
  • Controls all of your claimed land
  • Member of IOC
  • Member of FIFA
  • Have own international telephone code
  • Have own national bank
  • Are recognised by more than half of the members of the UN

We will do a test. When a country meets all of the above, they can be in category 1 as top level sovereign. If you have less than six, you are not sovereign. If you have between six and eleven (out of twelve), you can be in a "mid-table". Reckon we can use this to get a wider consensus? Thelostranger (talk) 13:07, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

@Thelostranger: See Claimed by Serbia as the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (under UN Security Council resolution 1244)  Rafael Ronen  15:35, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Could you please source that list please? Specifically, we need academic or legal sources that use this precise list as a means of determining whether a state is "sovereign" or not, and that use a count of attributes based on this list as a means of determining the level of sovereignty.
Note that none of the Permanent members of the United Nations Security Council is fully sovereign by your standard. Neither are countries such as Canada, Australia, New Zealand or India. Kahastok talk 18:52, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

PS. About the list I created, just to prove I am not an anti-Serb (as Serbia would not qualify as "sovereign" since it claims Kosovo but doesn't control it). To be fair to Serbia and to Serbs, by admitting Kosovo as sovereign, we as a result will carve out Serbia's true shape thus saving it from demotion. --Thelostranger (talk) 13:09, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

PS. Palestine would be knocked out of the new list. Basically sovereign would mean: The UN, the Vatican & The Republic of Kosovo (195 countries of the world is highly sourced). Thelostranger (talk) 13:11, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

I was trying to explain that the chance is remote that you will get a consensus to toss out the current list criteria/layout, for that you would need to make a new list article. The criteria are up to you to decide. Selfstudier (talk) 13:16, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
Note canvassing by the OP here and here. This question appears to arise from an RFC at Talk:Kosovo. Kahastok talk 18:52, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
They removed the post and I won't be canvassing anybody again. Nor will I talk to them for that rude reply that bordered onto UNCIVIL. A pity, because they have the intelligence to come on here and get the right change needed. --Thelostranger (talk) 17:19, 24 March 2022 (UTC)
A microstate, or perhaps an organised rebel group, could meet as many of these as the United Kingdom meets. Such lists are essentially unworkable for that sort of reason. CMD (talk) 00:48, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
The United States, China, North and South Korea, Ukraine and Georgia do not control all of their claimed land. Canada, Australia and New Zealand did not have their own constitutions until the 1980s. Canada did not have its own flag until the 1960s or anthem until the 1990s. Countries did not have their own national banks, telephone codes or membership in the IOC and FIFA until the 20th century. FIFA includes countries, such as England, that have no self-government. TFD (talk) 13:45, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Don't forget that the United States, Russia and Canada do not have their own international telephone codes.
Most US states can manage 7/12 of these (flag, anthem, government, police, army, constitution and control all their claimed land). Which is the same number as the UK has (government, police, army, IOC, telephone code, central bank and recognition - note that the commonly-used UK national flag and anthem are unofficial). Kahastok talk 17:42, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Oppose If Kosovo should be moved to the main list, then the Cook Islands and Niue should also be moved to the main list. Both island countries are one level above Kosovo in terms of international recognition. The Cook Islands and Niue can join the UN tomorrow if they give up their shared citizenship with New Zealand. On the other hand, the pathway for Kosovo to join the UN is almost non-existent, just like Taiwan. 2001:8003:9008:1301:6529:9ABE:CDA8:3410 (talk) 12:33, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Cook Islands and Niue

At Talk:List of states with limited recognition#Niue, Cook Islands there is a discussion of the apparent contradiction of these two being included here as sovereign states (Other states) but not included there. It seems that they should both be included (my preference based on a Duck test) or both excluded (the argument being that no-one really knows their status). Selfstudier (talk) 10:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I have initiated an RFC at List of states with limited recognition about this issue.Selfstudier (talk) 12:19, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

Comment There is no need for such discussion. Both the Cook Islands and Niue are undisputed non-member sovereign states in the UN System. Both countries are members of several UN specialized agencies and both have established and maintained diplomatic relations with dozens of countries, including New Zealand, which is represented by the New Zealand High Commission (NZ embassy based in a Commonwealth country, such as Australia or the United Kingdom, is called "New Zealand High Commission"). 2001:8003:9008:1301:6529:9ABE:CDA8:3410 (talk) 13:24, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

"List of countries in 2006" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect List of countries in 2006 and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 April 28#List of countries in 2006 until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 16:25, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

Türkiye cumhuriyeti başkanı Recep Tayyip Erdoğanın fotoğrafı yerine Mustafa Kemal Atatürkün fotoğrafını nasıl ekliycem

Türkiye Cumhuriyeti başkanı Recep Tayyip Erdoğan fotoğrafı yerine Mustafa Kemal Atatürkün fotoğrafını nasıl ekleriz 38.10.69.123 (talk) 21:19, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Claimed by Ukraine

The "Claimed by" template doesn't seem to work for Ukraine in the Luhansk and Donetsk PR row. Wcdowchb (talk) 03:00, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I've fixed it by changing {{claimedby}}.
We had a discussion on Talk:List of states with limited recognition about whether the words "claimed by" were appropriate in cases like Donetsk and Luhansk, given the potential POV implications of the word "claim". Is it worth having a similar discussion here? Kahastok talk 08:44, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Differences

FYI after Türkiye case: Where WIKI COMMONNAME does not match official ISO or UN short name

Wiki Common name Short name ISO or UN
The Bahamas Bahamas (the) [ISO + UN]
Bolivia Bolivia (Plurinational State of) [ISO + UN]
Brunei Brunei Darussalam [ISO + UN]
Cape Verde Cabo Verde [ISO + UN]
Central African Republic Central African Republic (the) [ISO + UN]
Comoros Comoros (the) [ISO + UN]
Democratic Republic of the Congo Congo (the Democratic Republic of the) [ISO]
Democratic Republic of the Congo (the) [UN]
Republic of the Congo Congo (the) [ISO + UN]
Czech Republic Czechia [ISO + UN]
Kingdom of Denmark Denmark [ISO + UN]
Dominican Republic Dominican Republic (the) [ISO + UN]
East Timor Timor-Leste [ISO + UN]
The Gambia Gambia (the) [ISO + UN]
Iran Iran (Islamic Republic of) [ISO + UN]
Ivory Coast Côte d'Ivoire [ISO + UN]
North Korea Korea (the Democratic People's Republic of) [ISO]
Democratic People's Republic of Korea (the) [UN]
South Korea Korea (the Republic of) [ISO]
Republic of Korea (the) [UN]
Laos Lao People's Democratic Republic (the) [ISO + UN]
Marshall Islands Marshall Islands (the) [ISO + UN]
Federated States of Micronesia Micronesia (Federated States of) [ISO + UN]
Moldova Moldova (the Republic of) [ISO]
Republic of Moldova (the) [UN]
Kingdom of the Netherlands Netherlands (the) [ISO + UN]
Niger Niger (the) [ISO + UN]
Palestine Palestine, State of [ISO]
State of Palestine (the) [UN]
Philippines Philippines (the) [ISO + UN]
Russia Russian Federation (the) [ISO + UN]
São Tomé and Príncipe Sao Tome and Principe [ISO + UN]
Sudan Sudan (the) [ISO + UN]
Syria Syrian Arab Republic (the) [ISO + UN]
Tanzania Tanzania, the United Republic of [ISO]
United Republic of Tanzania (the) [UN]
Turkey Türkiye [UN]
United Arab Emirates United Arab Emirates (the) [ISO + UN]
United Kingdom United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the) [ISO + UN]
United States United States of America (the) [ISO + UN]
Venezuela Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of) [ISO + UN]
Vietnam Viet Nam [ISO + UN]

Chrz (talk) 17:54, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Is there a reason why you have posted this massive table on this talk page? Does the table have any relevance to maintaining this article? Or are you just violating WP:POINT? Kahastok talk 18:19, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
It will help all the discussions, where people say "it has been officially registered at UN, so Wikipedia must change too". It clearly is not dependent on UN or ISO officialities. Here we have listed all the states so I don't know better center to keep it. Chrz (talk) 19:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
I think you have made a few mistakes. The definite article "The" in "The Bahamas" and "The Gambia" should always be in capitalized case (i.e. "Bahamas, The" and "Gambia, The"). As far as I know, Niger is just Niger, we don't need to include the definite article "the". You are right about the Sudan though.
When writing country names, grammar doesn't matter. What matters is how the country's official name is written. Each one of them has a reason behind why the definite article should or shouldn't be used and whether the first letter of the "the" should be in upper case or lower case (mostly to do with cutting ties with their colonial pasts or distinguishing between itself and another unrelated geographical feature). We just need to memorise and treat them as special proper nouns. Here are some examples:
  • The Bahamas
  • the Congo (both the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the Republic of the Congo share this name, so we need to either enclose their capital cities in brackets or using their long names to make a distinction)
  • the Falkland Islands
  • The Gambia
  • Maldives
  • the Netherlands
  • the Philippines
  • Seychelles
  • the Sudan
  • Ukraine
Unfortunately, a lot of us failed to do that. For example, most media just use Sudan instead of the Sudan to refer to the North-eastern African country located south of Egypt, despite the fact that Sudan without the definite article actually means a completely unrelated savanna region in Western Africa).
There are two exceptions though:
  • North Korea (formal name: the Democratic People's Republic of Korea)

Note on Czechia oh sorry Czech Republic

Do you think maybe that note should be updated as more and more places are using Czechia like I dunno the UN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.116.106.172 (talk) 22:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Of course the UN uses it, the UN will use whatever a country tells it to. It's quite a meaningless marker for common use. CMD (talk) 22:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Somaliland

the note says it has no recognition from any other state but the foreign relations of Taiwan page says that Taiwan recognizes it. So which one is it? Masterball2 (talk) 07:29, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

There has not been convincing evidence that Taiwan has fully recognised Somaliland, instead they have kept it very ambiguous. CMD (talk) 08:48, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Nothing like that my friend, Taiwan has fully recognized Somaliland as a sovereign state. This is from the official website of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of China (Taiwan):
Somaliland page
Somalia page
You wouldn't want to offend Somalia with these maps without a proper reason. 2001:8003:9007:8201:84C4:1957:3106:2BB9 (talk) 03:53, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Please refer to the discussion at Talk:List of states with limited recognition/Archive 14#Somaliland and Taiwan, where this has already been raised. CMD (talk) 04:06, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
It seems to me that the consensus was to move Somaliland to "States recognised only by other non-UN member states". Isn't it? 2001:8003:9007:8201:84C4:1957:3106:2BB9 (talk) 04:19, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, Somaliland only maintains unofficial diplomatic relations with Taiwan. Taiwan has gotten as close as it can to recognising Somaliland without actually going all the way. But the situation could very well change in the future. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 19:04, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:List_of_sovereign_states/Archive_15&oldid=1119512567"