Talk:List of oldest living state leaders/Archive 6
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Images
So for the third time, yea or nay? IMO they belong here, just as they do on every list of [Country X]'s leaders. And unlike the recently deleted counterpart article, there are only a few without images; country emblems stand in well in those cases. Star Garnet (talk) 18:54, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think including images of every single leader adds anything to this list other than clutter. I think it's better just to illustrate the record-holding leaders in a gallery. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:57, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
- IMHO all these list of... articles should be deleted as trivia. But while they exist, all images should be deleted from them. If readers want to know what these people look like? let them go to their bio articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:35, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
- I am for the pictures. It looked very good. GoodDay, what are you doing here, when you hate this list so much? Why do you edit articles you don't like? I was shocked what was deleted in the last months. Destructive people doing nothing meaningful, only destroying what others build in years of work. --Intimidator (talk) 01:42, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose pictures for everyone, support the current gallery with five entries. Less is more, [this] looks worse, and "IMO they belong here" is not an argument. Per GoodDay: The pictures are to be found at their respective articles, absolutely no need to include all of them here. Renewal6 (talk) 21:23, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
- This is just silly. List of current United States senators, List of presidents of France, List of prime ministers of Nepal, and basically every similar list that has a significant number of photos available, has a photo column. Those that don't are stuck in the Wikipedia of 15 years ago. A large chunk of people like photos but would never visit individual pages. Star Garnet (talk) 00:10, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Star Garnet: I appreciate your intention to improve the article, but I don't think the photo column you added fits in with the other columns. On the contrary, it makes the list more extensive and harder to navigate for the reader. Your second point might be true, but if they are interested in the actual topic of this article, they will go to the individual pages. If not, I see no point in entertaining them here with a mass of pictures. Renewal6 (talk) 14:26, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- Photo columns by default fit with lists of officeholders. I see that you don't interact with such articles often. Star Garnet (talk) 16:00, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, that's just your unfounded opinion mixed with irrelevant ad hominem. Renewal6 (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- No, it's site-wide practice. Pointing out that you are seemingly new and unfamiliar is relevant. Star Garnet (talk) 19:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Even if it were practice to ignore the arguments of the apparent newcomers, it would definitely not be an argument in favour of the photo column, so in this case it's irrelevant. After all, you're the one who sought to add "new and unfamiliar" stuff to the article, not me. Renewal6 (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- It generally is. I seek to standardize, nothing more. Star Garnet (talk) 05:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with standardizing. Longevity-related list articles in general don't use photo columns. Your comparison with a list of current officeholders (List of current United States senators), or with lists of holders of one specific office (List of presidents of France, List of prime ministers of Nepal), is a false equivalence, and I don't have to interact with those kinds of articles very often to figure this out. Renewal6 (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Why not just open an RFC on this topic, covering all related List articles of state leaders. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Every other list combining different types of leaders besides the lists of state leaders by century (which need a lot of help) and list of state leaders by age (which would probably go down in an RfD) has been deleted. You could of course open an RFC, but you'd lose and/or get this page deleted in the process. I don't care that much about adding the photos, I'm just amused by the opposition. Star Garnet (talk) 17:24, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with standardizing. Longevity-related list articles in general don't use photo columns. Your comparison with a list of current officeholders (List of current United States senators), or with lists of holders of one specific office (List of presidents of France, List of prime ministers of Nepal), is a false equivalence, and I don't have to interact with those kinds of articles very often to figure this out. Renewal6 (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- It generally is. I seek to standardize, nothing more. Star Garnet (talk) 05:46, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- Even if it were practice to ignore the arguments of the apparent newcomers, it would definitely not be an argument in favour of the photo column, so in this case it's irrelevant. After all, you're the one who sought to add "new and unfamiliar" stuff to the article, not me. Renewal6 (talk) 22:31, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- No, it's site-wide practice. Pointing out that you are seemingly new and unfamiliar is relevant. Star Garnet (talk) 19:58, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- With all due respect, that's just your unfounded opinion mixed with irrelevant ad hominem. Renewal6 (talk) 16:23, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
- Photo columns by default fit with lists of officeholders. I see that you don't interact with such articles often. Star Garnet (talk) 16:00, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- @Star Garnet: I appreciate your intention to improve the article, but I don't think the photo column you added fits in with the other columns. On the contrary, it makes the list more extensive and harder to navigate for the reader. Your second point might be true, but if they are interested in the actual topic of this article, they will go to the individual pages. If not, I see no point in entertaining them here with a mass of pictures. Renewal6 (talk) 14:26, 11 December 2021 (UTC)
- This is just silly. List of current United States senators, List of presidents of France, List of prime ministers of Nepal, and basically every similar list that has a significant number of photos available, has a photo column. Those that don't are stuck in the Wikipedia of 15 years ago. A large chunk of people like photos but would never visit individual pages. Star Garnet (talk) 00:10, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Nominating this article for deletion. Not a bad idea. GoodDay (talk) 17:30, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
- @GoodDay: In fact a very bad idea. It was just recently nominated for the second time, and the result is keep, whether you like it or not. Please stop your disruptive commenting. Renewal6 (talk) 18:54, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Was there actually a consensus about placing him on the unclear status list? The only statement I saw in the archives was that he was relatively powerless. That in itself isn't a reason to exclude him, given that his position was legally the head of government. This isn't even a case of a de facto leader splitting leadership three ways (not that I see that as an issue), as Mohammad Najibullah was both party secretary and president. Star Garnet (talk) 15:44, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
- Excellent job. I made a small investigation and it seems that he was listed among "unclear date of birth" and IP editor moved him to "unclear status" once his DoB was found ([1]), without explanation. I never actually looked why he was on that list, but I agree with You that he should be moved to the main list. StjepanHR (talk) 19:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
Now that he is in the main list it is even more urgent that recent proof that he is still alive is found. The likelihood that he is still alive and living in Afghanistan must be low. If he is living elsewhere it might be expected that a report similar to the 2016 one might have appeared after what happened in Afghanistan this year. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 02:26, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- I think this is from January, but since I don't know Arabic I'm not sure. While it's a facebook page, it seems to be a recording of a news broadcast from Ariana Television Network. Emk9 (talk) 03:31, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Sharq lives in the US and still frequently comments on Afghanistan politics. The interview above is from January 2021. In 2019 he was met by some Afghan journalists at home. He seems to be still very sharp of mind and in good health. --Folengo (talk) 20:36, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
- Also the language is pashto rather than Arabic.--Folengo (talk) 20:37, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Old sources
I think ten years is the proper standard for the validity of a source for a person living; it's the standard 'possibly living people' uses for people age 90+. With that in mind, there are two leaders worth discussing:
- Michel Lévêque, last source in 2010: not a major figure, and his legacy is tarnished (relating to the disappearance of monks), so it's not surprising he isn't in the limelight; he'd probably show up on the Insee Death Index, but doesn't, assuming his birth date is correct.
- Michael Hardie Boys, last source in 2012: a memoir by Hardie Boys was published in 2016; while I assume it would be noted somewhere if it was published posthumously, I can't find any media around the publication; it's possible that a copy at Harvard is the only one outside of Oceania, and the only copy available for purchase is $250. Star Garnet (talk) 18:49, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- This is a photo of Hardie Boys and his wife from 2015, but since it's just a gallery's facebook page I wouldn't consider it a source, just an indication that a more recent reliable source might exist. Emk9 (talk) 19:28, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Boys is certainly alive, his predecessor Catherine Tizard was on the list and there was considerable media coverage of her recent death. Boys has kept a low profile for some time but there is no expectation his death will go unnoticed in New Zealand. I am keeping a look out for any mention of him in the NZ media. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 19:40, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- I did manage to find a story on the memoir publication from November 2016 (page 44). Seems like that would be sufficient? Star Garnet (talk) 19:47, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
List of oldest living state leader redundancy
Considering the list is of living state leaders, I think we should remove the column that says “living as of” as it is redundant. It is also out of date. Thoughts? Intersting (talk) 04:44, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- Lol no. That's the refs column. Star Garnet (talk) 05:16, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
I see no reason for Parades to be on the unclear status list when it comes time. It would be ridiculous to say that Noriega wasn't clearly the primary state leader for most of the 1980s, and Parades exerted similar control, just less famously. Source-wise, he gave an interview in 2017, and, while the phrasing is a bit unclear as a non-native speaker, I believe one a few months ago. Star Garnet (talk) 19:14, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
- Haven't seen this until now. Somehow missed it, sorry. I agree with You. StjepanHR (talk) 14:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
- Did Paredes have any actual codified title or role in running the country though? Noriega and Omar Torrijos were styled as the "Maximum Leader of the National Liberation" and "Maximum Leader of the Panamanian Revolution", respectively, for at least some part of their de facto rule. Meanwhile, Paredes doesn't seem to have had any formal leadership title at any point during his tenure. This would put him in a similar situation to Edith Wilson (who is often cited as the "de facto president of the US" after her husband's stroke), or to Eva Perón (who only ever held the honorary title of "Spiritual Leader of the Nation", despite being de facto co-leader with her husband, president Juan Perón). 89.172.20.225 (talk) 15:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Like Torrijos, Flores, and Noriega, Paredes's official title was Chief of Staff of the National Guard. Self-styled titles don't change anything. Unlike Wilson and Perón, there is no alternative figure that you could credibly argue held power. In Paredes's case, he resigned from power to run for president with the intention of a democratic transition, whereupon he would regain said power. But Noriega had different ideas. This gives a straightforward outline of that sequence of events. Star Garnet (talk) 17:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand what you mean by "there is no alternative figure that you could credibly argue held power". Panama had presidents throught the 1970s and 1980s, and the president was the titular and constitutional head of state and head of government. Noriega and Torrijos were thus an additional form of "supreme leadership", by virtue of their respective titles as "Leader of the National Liberation" or "of the Revolution". Something similar existed in Libya until 2011, when the offical head of state was the "Secretary-General of the General People's Congress", but Gaddafi remained de facto head of state as the "Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution", which was a purely honorary title. In North Korea the role of head of state is de jure divided between the offices of "Chairman of the Standing Committee of the Supreme People's Assembly" and of the "President of the State Affairs Commission" (which is held by Kim Jong-un), but the General Secretary of the Workers' Party of Korea is the de facto head of state. As for Edith Wilson, her husband was bedridden for the last two years of his term (1919-1921) and she even decided which matters were important enough for him to be disturbed, so in effect she was de facto president more than he was during this period. Are you saying that Woodrow Wilson should not be regarded as having been president from 1919 to 1921? Because he didn't "credibly hold power", but was rather a bedridden stroke victim with a possibly questionable mental ability to make informed decisions? If you say that the title "president of Panama" meant nothing from 1968 to 1989, then you could also say that "president of the US" meant nothing from 1919 to 1921. In short, my point is this - did Paredes ever say "I'm in charge of Panama because I hold the office of XY" or do you consider him a "de facto leader" just because he was a major player in an important series of events? Because there is a distinction between "important person" (i.e. celebrities or religious leaders who lead political mass movements) and "state leader". 89.172.20.225 (talk) 17:59, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure what your point is, as you seem to be contradicting yourself several times there. Regardless, self-styled titles mean nothing, and the one you refer to with Noriega was in effect for the last five days before he was deposed. And yes, it's easy to make a credible claim that Woodrow Wilson still held power; he wasn't in a vegetative state. It's hard to make the case that the president of Panama wasn't a figurehead for a long time, including during Paredes's tenure. The fact that dictators often prefer to have a formal president in place hardly means that the dictator doesn't exist. It's also easy to back up these statements, such as in this article: "Panamanian national guard chief Ruben Dario Paredes...acknowledged the guard...rules Panama despite the existence of civilian president. But he vowed it will abandon all political power after the presidential elections of 1984." And there are plenty of other comtemporary sources to point to, such as the AP referring to him as "Panama's most powerful political figure." There are scenarios where a country's most powerful political figure is not a current state leader, but those are almost exclusively cases where they're a national hero who is a former state leader. Star Garnet (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- My point wasn't to contradict you, but rather to determine whether there was any basis (i.e. official document, law, proclamation or statement) in which Paredes is either described, or self-describes himself, as a "leader" of the country itself. I think the first quote you put up ("Panamanian national guard chief Ruben Dario Paredes...acknowledged the guard...rules Panama despite the existence of civilian president. But he vowed it will abandon all political power after the presidential elections of 1984") is sufficient evidence to support his inclusion on the list. Just to explain what I meant before: I took issue with the fact that Paredes seemed not to have any point at which he legitimized his own rule (as Noriega's rule was legitimized 5 days before his ousting, thereby officially qualifing him as a "state leader" in some form of de jure, as well as the pre-existing de facto, capacity for at least one short period of time). However, the statement you provided indicates that Paredes did in fact consider himself a state leader (in at least a de facto capacity), thereby providing legitimacy to his rule. In other words, I found it desirable to have direct evidence that the "Chief of Staff of the National Guard" was actually considered a de facto state office, as opposed to just being a random high-ranking military position that some domestic or foreign media sources vaguely branded as "leading" the nation. Especially since it is highly unusual for junta leaders to not bestow new titles upon themselves after taking power - e.g. "President of the XY Council/Committee" or "Chairman of the Junta of Government". This is common practice in Africa after almost every coup, and most Latin American juntas have rebranded themselves as "Government Juntas" or "Committees/Councils", as it sounds more "legitimate", "democratic" and "inclusive of non-military elements". However, Paredes seems to be an exception, as he chose to keep his military title as his government title. 89.172.20.225 (talk) 22:07, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure what your point is, as you seem to be contradicting yourself several times there. Regardless, self-styled titles mean nothing, and the one you refer to with Noriega was in effect for the last five days before he was deposed. And yes, it's easy to make a credible claim that Woodrow Wilson still held power; he wasn't in a vegetative state. It's hard to make the case that the president of Panama wasn't a figurehead for a long time, including during Paredes's tenure. The fact that dictators often prefer to have a formal president in place hardly means that the dictator doesn't exist. It's also easy to back up these statements, such as in this article: "Panamanian national guard chief Ruben Dario Paredes...acknowledged the guard...rules Panama despite the existence of civilian president. But he vowed it will abandon all political power after the presidential elections of 1984." And there are plenty of other comtemporary sources to point to, such as the AP referring to him as "Panama's most powerful political figure." There are scenarios where a country's most powerful political figure is not a current state leader, but those are almost exclusively cases where they're a national hero who is a former state leader. Star Garnet (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- I don't quite understand what you mean by "there is no alternative figure that you could credibly argue held power". Panama had presidents throught the 1970s and 1980s, and the president was the titular and constitutional head of state and head of government. Noriega and Torrijos were thus an additional form of "supreme leadership", by virtue of their respective titles as "Leader of the National Liberation" or "of the Revolution". Something similar existed in Libya until 2011, when the offical head of state was the "Secretary-General of the General People's Congress", but Gaddafi remained de facto head of state as the "Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution", which was a purely honorary title. In North Korea the role of head of state is de jure divided between the offices of "Chairman of the Standing Committee of the Supreme People's Assembly" and of the "President of the State Affairs Commission" (which is held by Kim Jong-un), but the General Secretary of the Workers' Party of Korea is the de facto head of state. As for Edith Wilson, her husband was bedridden for the last two years of his term (1919-1921) and she even decided which matters were important enough for him to be disturbed, so in effect she was de facto president more than he was during this period. Are you saying that Woodrow Wilson should not be regarded as having been president from 1919 to 1921? Because he didn't "credibly hold power", but was rather a bedridden stroke victim with a possibly questionable mental ability to make informed decisions? If you say that the title "president of Panama" meant nothing from 1968 to 1989, then you could also say that "president of the US" meant nothing from 1919 to 1921. In short, my point is this - did Paredes ever say "I'm in charge of Panama because I hold the office of XY" or do you consider him a "de facto leader" just because he was a major player in an important series of events? Because there is a distinction between "important person" (i.e. celebrities or religious leaders who lead political mass movements) and "state leader". 89.172.20.225 (talk) 17:59, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Like Torrijos, Flores, and Noriega, Paredes's official title was Chief of Staff of the National Guard. Self-styled titles don't change anything. Unlike Wilson and Perón, there is no alternative figure that you could credibly argue held power. In Paredes's case, he resigned from power to run for president with the intention of a democratic transition, whereupon he would regain said power. But Noriega had different ideas. This gives a straightforward outline of that sequence of events. Star Garnet (talk) 17:00, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- Did Paredes have any actual codified title or role in running the country though? Noriega and Omar Torrijos were styled as the "Maximum Leader of the National Liberation" and "Maximum Leader of the Panamanian Revolution", respectively, for at least some part of their de facto rule. Meanwhile, Paredes doesn't seem to have had any formal leadership title at any point during his tenure. This would put him in a similar situation to Edith Wilson (who is often cited as the "de facto president of the US" after her husband's stroke), or to Eva Perón (who only ever held the honorary title of "Spiritual Leader of the Nation", despite being de facto co-leader with her husband, president Juan Perón). 89.172.20.225 (talk) 15:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
1933 births
We're a few months away from dealing with 1933 births, so here's who I could find (feel free to add others or remove who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Bill Hayden | Australia | Governor-General (1989-1996) | January 23, 1933 | Entered main list 25/08/2021 |
| Paul Biya | Cameroon | Prime Minster (1975-1982) President (since 1982) |
February 13, 1933 | Entered main list 26/10/2021 |
| Mark Eyskens | Belgium | Prime Minister (1981) | April 29, 1933 | Entered main list 06/11/2021 |
| H. D. Deve Gowda | India | Prime Minister (1996-1997) | May 18, 1933 | Entered main list 23/11/2021 |
| Basdeo Panday | Trinidad and Tobago | Prime Minister (1995-2001) | May 25, 1933 | Entered main list 23/11/2021 |
| Hüsamettin Cindoruk | Turkey | Acting President (1993) | June 8, 1933 | Entered main list 6/12/2021 |
| Fouad Mebazaa | Tunisia | Acting President (2011) | June 15, 1933 | Entered main list 8/12/2021 |
| Dumaagiin Sodnom | Mongolia | Prime Minister (1984-1990) | July 14, 1933 | Entered main list 10/12/2021 |
| Karmenu Mifsud Bonnici | Malta | Prime Minister (1984-1987) | July 17, 1933 | Entered main list 12/12/2021 |
| Suchinda Kraprayoon | Thailand | Prime Minister (1992) | August 6, 1933 | Entered main list 13/1/2022 |
| Rubén Darío Paredes | Panama | Military Leader (1982-1983) | August 11, 1933 | de facto leader; Entered main list 3/2/2022 |
| Arnold Koller | Switzerland | President (1990, 1997) | August 29, 1933 | Entered main list 7/3/2022 |
| Mátyás Szűrös | Hungary | Provisional President (1989-1990) | September 11, 1933 | Entered main list 18/3/2022 |
| Rachid Sfar | Tunisia | Prime Minister (1986-1987) | ||
| Michel Aoun | Lebanon | Acting President (1988–1990; disputed) Prime Minister (1988–1990; disputed) President (since 2016) |
September 30, 1933 | Entered main list 22/4/2022 |
| Abel Pacheco | Costa Rica | President (2002-2006) | December 22, 1933 | Entered main list 15/5/2022 |
| Akihito | Japan | Emperor (1989-2019) | December 23, 1933 | Entered main list 26/5/2022 |
| Than Shwe | Myanmar | Chairman (1992-2011) Prime Minister (1992-2003) |
February 2, 1933 May 3, 1935 |
Added to uncertain DoB list 26/10/2021 |
Star Garnet (talk) 04:08, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
- 1.) Anatoly Malofeyev, as a Moscow-Kremlin-worshiping orthodox Communist, quit his office the day Belarus declared independence; so, no. 2.) Rubén Darío Paredes was the puppet-master of the Panamanian meat-puppet President, so IMHO he should be in the Unclear Status table. 3.) Hüsamettin Cindoruk's exact date of birth is unclear, therefore he should be in the Unclear date table when Kamal Ganzouri joins the main table. 4.) Current Lebanese President Michel Aoun was apparently born on 30 September 1933, so IMHO he should be in this table as well. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 07:15, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don't understand why are there differences in his resignation date in Russian and English-language sources. The Russian sources state he resigned on August 25 (the day BSSR declared independence) and the western sources state August 29, 4 days later. If the latter is true, I would put Anatoly Malofeyev it the "Unclear status as state leaders" section. Similarly to Manolić, it would mean he was in charge (although only for a few days) after the declaation of inependence and before the final recognition. StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- He must've announced his pending resignation on Aug 25 & it became effective August 29. GoodDay (talk) 22:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- So, he does not qualify for the "unclear status" list, in your opinion? StjepanHR (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's your call. GoodDay (talk) 22:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- If that so, I think it is better to be as inclusive as possible in that section. It is for "unclear" cases, after all. I see Jwkozak91 has created a hidden entry. I'll make it public then.StjepanHR (talk) 13:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- There is no point making him visible when he is not old enough to make the top 100. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 20:36, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- If that so, I think it is better to be as inclusive as possible in that section. It is for "unclear" cases, after all. I see Jwkozak91 has created a hidden entry. I'll make it public then.StjepanHR (talk) 13:15, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
- It's your call. GoodDay (talk) 22:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- So, he does not qualify for the "unclear status" list, in your opinion? StjepanHR (talk) 22:55, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- He must've announced his pending resignation on Aug 25 & it became effective August 29. GoodDay (talk) 22:38, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- I don't understand why are there differences in his resignation date in Russian and English-language sources. The Russian sources state he resigned on August 25 (the day BSSR declared independence) and the western sources state August 29, 4 days later. If the latter is true, I would put Anatoly Malofeyev it the "Unclear status as state leaders" section. Similarly to Manolić, it would mean he was in charge (although only for a few days) after the declaation of inependence and before the final recognition. StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding Rubén Darío Paredes I would suggest that the status of military ruler, whilst clearly lacking a constitutional/legislative basis, qualifies as de facto rather than unclear. Otherwise a great many figures could potentially be removed/excluded from the main list. Of course, the concurrent de jure holder(s) of constitutional offices should also be included when/if the time comes (as it happens Ricardo de la Espriella, President for at least part of the period in question, is in the 1934 births contigent) 11:24, 1 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.155.59.206 (talk)
TBH (if it were up to me), I'd delete quite a few of the entries in this article. I would exclude regents, acting presidents, party leaders or other officials who weren't heads of state or government. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- (This should probably be a new thread). Any reference to being a "party leader" should be removed as it is not the same as being a head of state. "Regents" and "acting presidents" is a bit trickier. Most of them would have had no practical power, especially if they were only in the position for a matter of a few days. But if they were there for months it could be argued that they would have had some actual head of state powers. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 22:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
- Removing party leaders would have very little effect on the list as it stands; only one entry is of someone who was a party leader and (apparently) held no other office (Gombojavyn Ochirbat, Mongolia); all the others would qualify anyway having held other posts either previously, concurrently, or subsequently. It's worth remembering too that one-party states have at various times accorded parties and their leaders a formal constitutional status, adding a de jure aspect to their de facto rule. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- I am strogly against the removal of party leaders for states that have constitutional rulling party. For example, that would mean that Joseph Stalin was not a state leader before 1940s, when he became the head of the government, since he was "only" the party leader. Some of them (like the Yugoslavian dictator Tito) can be both party leaders and heads of government/state, but it is not the rule. And, while I agree that "being party leader is not the same as being head of state", this list is for state leaders (meaning heads of goverment, state, and, I would argue, party presidents in single-party states). StjepanHR (talk) 23:24, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- I entirely agree; indeed you have put it more convincingly than I did. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:38, 10 November 2021 (UTC)
- Removing party leaders would have very little effect on the list as it stands; only one entry is of someone who was a party leader and (apparently) held no other office (Gombojavyn Ochirbat, Mongolia); all the others would qualify anyway having held other posts either previously, concurrently, or subsequently. It's worth remembering too that one-party states have at various times accorded parties and their leaders a formal constitutional status, adding a de jure aspect to their de facto rule. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:55, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
Aren't there any more state leaders born in this year aside from these listed here Jobzaiay13 (talk) 22:46, 9 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah. Is there a master list anywhere?
1934 births
I think this concept of a table is a good one.
As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rudolf Schuster | Slovakia | President (1999–2004) | 4 January 1934 | Added to main list 9/7/2022 |
| Jean Chrétien | Canada | Prime Minister (1993–2003) | 11 January 1934 | Added to main list 15/7/2022 |
| Mudar Badran | Jordan | Prime Minister (1976–1979; 1980–1984; 1989–1991) | 18 January 1934 | Added to main list 31/7/2022 |
| Édith Cresson | France | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 27 January 1934 | |
| Eddie Fenech Adami | Malta | Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004) President (2004–2009) |
7 February 1934 | |
| Mohamed Ennaceur | Tunisia | Acting President (2019) | 21 March 1934 | |
| J. Y. Pillay | Singapore | Acting President (2017) | 30 March 1934 | |
| Édouard Frank | Central African Republic | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 5 April 1934 | |
| John Malecela | Tanzania | Prime Minister (1990–1994) | 19 April 1934 | |
| Pedro Pires | Cabo Verde | Prime Minister (1975–1991) President (2001–2011) |
29 April 1934 | |
| Henri Konan Bédié | Côte d'Ivoire | Acting President (1993–1995) President (1995–1999) |
5 May 1934 | |
| Lee Hong-koo | South Korea | Prime Minister (1994–1995) | 9 May 1934 | |
| Heng Samrin | Kampuchea (People's Republic of) | President of the Council of State (1979–1992) Party General Secretary (1981–1991) |
25 May 1934 | |
| Monica Dacon | Saint Vincent and the Grenadines | Acting Governor-General (2002) | 4 June 1934 | |
| Albert II | Belgium | King (1993–2013) | 7 June 1934 | |
| Mikio Aoki | Japan | Acting Prime Minister (2000) | 8 June 1934 | |
| Gérard Latortue | Haiti | Prime Minister (2004–2006) | 19 June 1934 | |
| Désiré Rakotoarijaona | Madagascar (People's Republic of) | Prime Minister (1977–1988) | ||
| Dumitru Mazilu | Romania | Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) | 24 June 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem | Angola | Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) | 24 August 1934 | |
| Ricardo de la Espriella | Panama | President (1982–1984) | 5 September 1934 | |
| Apas Jumagulov | Kyrgyzstan | Prime Minister (1993–1998) | 19 September 1934 | |
| Eugene Koffi Adoboli | Togo | Prime Minister (1999–2000) | 3 October 1934 | |
| Yakubu Gowon | Nigeria | Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) | 19 October 1934 | |
| Hamilton Green | Guyana | Prime Minister (1985–1992) | 9 November 1934 | |
| Ingvar Carlsson | Sweden | Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996) | ||
| Nicéphore Soglo | Benin | Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991) President (1991–1996) |
29 November 1934 | |
| Tarcisio Bertone | Vatican | Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) | 2 December 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Pratibha Patil | India | President (2007–2012) | 19 December 1934 | |
| Stjepan Mesić | Yugoslavia Croatia |
President of the Presidency (1991) President (2000–2010) |
24 December 1934 | |
| Paulin Obame-Nguema | Gabon | Prime Minister (1994–1996) | 28 December 1934 | |
| Waldo Bernal Pereira | Bolivia | Junta member (1980; 1981) | 1931/1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/22 |
| Félix Mouzabakani | Congo-Brazzaville | Co-Commander of the Army (1963) | 1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022 |
– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
My I suggest to add a source and ages for the upcoming oldest living state leaders which are born beginning 1934. LeoXIPP (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
USING A NE TABE FORMAT
may I suggest that we'd use the table row format in this article just like in the article List of current cardinals — Preceding unsigned comment added by LeoXIPP (talk • contribs) 10:56, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Ajman
Please add the ruler of Ajman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.249.46.118 (talk) 13:08, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
- This was addressed previously (item 56 'Humaid bin Rashid Al Nuaimi III Emir of Ajman' on Archive 5). Rulers of individual states within the UAE do not directly qualify for inclusion. The only Emirati offices eligible are President and Prime Minister of the federation, held by the rulers of Dubai and Abu Dhabi. The only currently living holders of those offices are the incumbents, born in 1948 and 1949, thus not yet old enough to enter the list. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:54, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
adding the rest of upcoming state leaders as a ne section
may I Suggest that we add new section for upcoming oldest living state leaders — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.176.95.23 (talk) 01:57, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- No. GoodDay (talk) 02:02, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
- Editing while using an IP is still Sockpuppeting. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 02:18, 30 May 2022 (UTC)
Luis Echeverría
Please remove Luis Echeverría as he has died. Jack M E 01 (talk) 15:32, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- Now I see. You're blocked from mainspace & are going around talkpages, requesting proxy changes. GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
Unproven possibilities and future additions
There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found | ||||
| Emmanuel Bruny | Haiti | Executive Government Council (1957) | 1915 | |
| Feliciano Avelar | El Salvador | Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) | 1919 | |
| Max Bolte | Haiti | Executive Government Council (1957) | 1920 | [3] says he died before 2000 |
| Avtar Singh | Sikkim | Political Officer (1964-1966) | 1920 | Unlikely position qualifies; possibly died in 2015 [4] common name/surname combination though |
| Ricardo Falla Cáceres | El Salvador | Junta of Government (1960-1961) | 1921 | Spanish wiki [5] and some other sources claim 1929-1990 |
| Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas | Bolivia | Junta of Commanders of the Armed Forces (1971) | 1922 | Possibly 1926-2000? |
| Marino Vagnetti | San Marino | Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) | 1924 | |
| Ri Kun-mo | DPR Korea | Premier (1986-1988) | 1926 | Likely deceased, see discussion below |
| Ambrose Patrick Genda | Sierra Leone | Chairman of the National Reformation Council (1967) | 1927 | Likely deceased, see discussion below |
| Emmanuel Bodjollé | Togo | Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) | 1928 | Needs a better citation |
| Michel Lévêque | Monaco | Minister of State (1997-2000) | July 19, 1933 | Needs a more recent citation |
| Martin M'Bia | Congo (People's Republic of the) [a.k.a. Congo-Brazzaville] |
Member of the Military Committee (1977) | 1934 | Unclear status/DoB list No citation |
| Óscar Pammo Rodríguez | Bolivia | Junta member (1981) | 1934 | Unclear status/DoB list No citation |
| Severiano Tura | San Marino | Captain Regent (1985) | c. 1934 | Unclear DoB list No citation |
| Soviet transition; I'd argue for inclusion | ||||
| Jānis Vagris | Latvia | Communist Party Secretary (1989-1990 | October 17, 1930 | state sovereignty declared 7/28/1989 alive as of 2010-10-18 |
| Vaino Väljas | Estonia | Communist Party Secretary (1988-1990) Communist Party Chairman (1990-1991) |
March 28, 1931 | state sovereignty declared 11/16/1988 alive as of 2018-04-10 |
- "None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party." – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
1. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 and later to be done): (U=3, A=0)
- Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
- Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
- I agree he's very likely deceased, though I notice that the page reference given in the German article (p679) can't be right because the publisher only lists the book as having 332 pages! Curiously, Genda doesn't appear on List of heads of state of Sierra Leone at all - I don't know why, as others in 'office' for as little as a couple of days do appear. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
- Ri Kun-mo, North Korea, prime minister, 1926, published in 2004, chronology through 2001, now disputed. Died in 2001 according to Alexandre Mansourov.
- Emmanuel Bodjollé, Togo, committee, 1928
2. Upcoming (1933) - now on the list above StjepanHR (talk) 22:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Albert Ndele is very much alive according to his niece on twitter. We just have to find a source. --160.78.232.4 (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to reduce the above list by consolidating categories? For example the 'Highly unlikely' and 'Unlikely' groups could probably be merged at this point. An alternative might be to separate out the entries that have been struck through and put those that haven't in their own section? I think either would make it quite a bit clearer which ones have been 'dealt with' and which still need to be. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- Frankly, I think we should just put all of them into the table above, without any "subcategories", but I always forget to do so. Those categories are a relic from the initial list from a decade ago, when there were much more leaders with unknown status. P.S. I have removed the dead leaders from the list. I usually leave them for some time, so other can see the reason for removal, but most of them were struck quite some time ago. StjepanHR (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I hope you don't mind, I've gone ahead and put the majority into the table as you suggest, including your remarks and references. I've left out the pre-1916 ones because of the high chance of them being deceased while at the same time extremely hard to prove. I've also kept those where the discussion is a bit longer below rather than trying to squash them into a table217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
Upcoming leaders without proof
After two more deaths (or other removals), leaders born in 1934 will enter the table. There are currently four leaders with unknown birthdate, meaning they would enter one of the tables in addenda (or the table in this talk page for leaders without proof) relatively soon. I took only a short look for every leader, as I have very limited time on my hands these days, so any help would be welcome. The leaders are:
- Severiano Tura, captain-regent of San Marino: I haven't found any info on his life after the regency (1985)
- This seems to be common with holders of this office; there are so many former incumbents/they change so frequently and have virtually no international profile. There's already one in the 'Unproven' table above 217.155.59.206 (talk) 19:59, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Félix Mouzabakani, military leader of the People's Republic of the Congo: there is a photo of him as an older man here, but without the date: [6] and this ([7]) might be proof that he was alive in 2020 - fluent French speaker would be helpful
- I'm not at all a speaker/reader of French, but Google translate gives 'He is certainly the oldest Congolese AET still alive in 2020 when we update this page' from the first link. That's fairly clear-cut, and relatively recent. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 19:59, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Óscar Pammo Rodríguez, Bolivian junta member: couldn't find any recent information, similar situation as for Mr. Tura
- I don't think it was a good idea to add Pammo Rodríguez to the article (even in one of the 'unclear' tables) given that there's no citation at all for him being alive. In fact we have less evidence for him than e.g. Lévêque or Bodjollé, who at least had citations, albiet they're now considered dated/less reliable. The right place for him at present would seem to be the 'Unoproven possibilities' table alongside those two. Otherwise a bad precedent is set and the hard work of many users to hold this list to a high standard of verifiability is undermined. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:42, 24 July 2022 (UTC)
- Martin M'Bia, Congolese military committee member: very obscure and very borderline even for an "unclear" leaders list, most recent info on him is from late 1970s StjepanHR (talk) 12:34, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I would be inclined to remove Martin M'Bia from consideration for inclusion. Military Committee of the Congolese Party of Labour lists Joachim Yhombi-Opango as Head of State and Louis Sylvain Goma as Prime Minister. Some others in the list (though not M'Bia) have ministerial portfolios assigned to them. The whole set-up looks to me like a cabinet with specific individuals being head of state and of government, rather than a collective presidency/junta arragement as in some other cases. Any thoughts? 217.155.59.206 (talk) 13:08, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- It seems to be a complicated case. Rulers.org claims "The membership of the committee was only announced on 3 Apr 1977; in the same communiqué it was said that Yhombi-Opango had been chosen chairman of the committee on 19 Mar 1977.", while the committee was in power the day before (on 18 March). It seems that for one day, it was indeed a collective government without a clear leader. StjepanHR (talk) 23:25, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- That's interesting, thanks. In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if M'Bia ends up on the 'Unproven Possibilities' list above in future, like Emmanuel Bodjollé. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:12, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- IMHO, we have revealed enough uncertainty about Martin M'Bia on this talk page since 24 April 2022, that he shouldn't be added to any tables in the main article page.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 06:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree; probably a good idea to put him directly in the 'Unproven' table 217.155.59.206 (talk) 19:59, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Lubomír Štrougal's image
I remembered that I changed Lubomír Štrougal image awhile back but it was reverted for no reason. I'm not sure why because the current image used looks extremely grainy and in poor quality. This is the image I replaced it with which has a better quality. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 04:39, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- Frankly, Štrougal looked physically better 51.5 years ago than he does now. <sarcasm>Anyway, why is he in front of a orange banner? That was one of those fascist colour revolutions, you know!!</sarcasm>– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:08, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's worth aiming to have the images in the gallery at least near-contemporary with the subjects' years in office; not always possible I know, and those with shorter service longer ago will have less images available than more recent and longer-serving individuals, but something to bear in mind. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:40, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
1934 births
I think this concept of a table is a good one.
As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rudolf Schuster | Slovakia | President (1999–2004) | 4 January 1934 | Added to main list 9/7/2022 |
| Jean Chrétien | Canada | Prime Minister (1993–2003) | 11 January 1934 | Added to main list 15/7/2022 |
| Mudar Badran | Jordan | Prime Minister (1976–1979; 1980–1984; 1989–1991) | 18 January 1934 | Added to main list 31/7/2022 |
| Édith Cresson | France | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 27 January 1934 | Added to main list 30/8/2022 |
| Eddie Fenech Adami | Malta | Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004) President (2004–2009) |
7 February 1934 | Added to main list 8/9/2022 |
| Mohamed Ennaceur | Tunisia | Acting President (2019) | 21 March 1934 | Added to main list 4/11/2022 |
| J. Y. Pillay | Singapore | Acting President (2017) | 30 March 1934 | Added to main list 5/11/2022 |
| Édouard Frank | Central African Republic | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 5 April 1934 | Added to main list 30/11/2022 |
| John Malecela | Tanzania | Prime Minister (1990–1994) | 19 April 1934 | Added to main list 31/12/2022 |
| Pedro Pires | Cape Verde | Prime Minister (1975–1991) President (2001–2011) |
29 April 1934 | Added to main list 3/1/2023 |
| Henri Konan Bédié | Côte d'Ivoire | Acting President (1993–1995) President (1995–1999) |
5 May 1934 | |
| Lee Hong-koo | South Korea | Prime Minister (1994–1995) | 9 May 1934 | |
| Heng Samrin | Kampuchea (People's Republic of) | President of the Council of State (1979–1992) Party General Secretary (1981–1991) |
25 May 1934 | |
| Monica Dacon | Saint Vincent and the Grenadines | Acting Governor-General (2002) | 4 June 1934 | |
| Albert II | Belgium | King (1993–2013) | 7 June 1934 | |
| Mikio Aoki | Japan | Acting Prime Minister (2000) | 8 June 1934 | |
| Gérard Latortue | Haiti | Prime Minister (2004–2006) | 19 June 1934 | |
| Désiré Rakotoarijaona | Madagascar (People's Republic of) | Prime Minister (1977–1988) | ||
| Dumitru Mazilu | Romania | Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) | 24 June 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem | Angola | Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) | 24 August 1934 | |
| Ricardo de la Espriella | Panama | President (1982–1984) | 5 September 1934 | |
| Apas Jumagulov | Kyrgyzstan | Prime Minister (1993–1998) | 19 September 1934 | |
| Eugene Koffi Adoboli | Togo | Prime Minister (1999–2000) | 3 October 1934 | |
| Yakubu Gowon | Nigeria | Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) | 19 October 1934 | |
| Hamilton Green | Guyana | Prime Minister (1985–1992) | 9 November 1934 | |
| Ingvar Carlsson | Sweden | Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996) | ||
| Nicéphore Soglo | Benin | Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991) President (1991–1996) |
29 November 1934 | |
| Tarcisio Bertone | Vatican | Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) | 2 December 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Pratibha Patil | India | President (2007–2012) | 19 December 1934 | |
| Stjepan Mesić | Yugoslavia Croatia |
President of the Presidency (1991) President (2000–2010) |
24 December 1934 | |
| Paulin Obame-Nguema | Gabon | Prime Minister (1994–1996) | 28 December 1934 | |
| Waldo Bernal Pereira | Bolivia | Junta member (1980; 1981) | 1931/1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/22 |
| Félix Mouzabakani | Congo-Brazzaville | Co-Commander of the Army (1963) | 1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022 |
– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
My I suggest to add a source and ages for the upcoming oldest living state leaders which are born beginning 1934. LeoXIPP (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Adding a comment to prevent archiving. Star Garnet (talk) 17:24, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
If Paul Biya was to die, the oldest current serving leader would be Mahmoud Abbas, who's not in list right now TheCorriynial (talk) 16:56, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- He won't be for a while yet, as he was born roughly 18 months after the youngest currently on the list. That shouldn't be a problem though, it'll just need a slightly different wording to take account of the situation if it arises e.g. 'The oldest curently serving leader, Mahmoud Abbas, does not appear in this list being [age in years and days]' or something similar. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- Indeed, Abbas wouldn't be added, in that situation. Not until, he makes the top 100 list. GoodDay (talk) 15:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
You can add these guys here
I cant find Andrej Marinc should be number 30-something who’s 92nd birthday was last month. I cant find Janez Zemljarič who is 93 years old. his 94th birthday is on Dec 30.
Sorry, he died on his 94th birthday.
Plus why didn’t you add any soviet politicians like Vaino Väljas (EST) & Jānis Vagris (LAT) plus there should be a possibly living heads of state list (heads of state who’s status are disputed but were alive recently (2016-2019) who I’m planning to add Krastyu Trichkov (BULG) to. There are only two soviets you added in the list:
1. Nikolai Ryzhkov (USR)
2. Ivan Silayev (USR)
There are a few heads of state who should go in the addendum 1 . Vladimir Mitkov (NM)- 91 yr
2 Nikola Filipović (BIH)- 95/94 yr
3 Miodrag Vlahović (MONT) 93/92 years.
That’s all I need to say. 122.11.224.74 (talk) 12:07, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- I don't believe any of these individuals meet the criteria for entry into this page. But, I'll let others decide. GoodDay (talk) 18:18, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Slovenia was part of Yugoslavia when Andrej Marinc and Janez Zemljarič served. Estonia and Latvia were part of the Soviet Union when Vaino Väljas and Jānis Vagris served. Krastyu Trichkov only served as the First Deputy Chairman of the State Council which was the deputy to the head of state, the Chairmen of the State Council. Vladimir Mitkov, Nikola Filipović, and Miodrag Vlahović also all served when North Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Montenegro where parts of Yugoslavia. None of these people meet this lists criteria. Emk9 (talk) 19:42, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
- Zemljarić is dead anyways, but he died after I did this.
Talking about Yugoslavia
Today’s subject is Kosovo- there is Ilija Vakić (1932-) who should be added to something like the addendum- and there is something I want to add called ‘’other heads of state who weren’t included in the other list and Shefqet Nebih Gashi (1927-), do these guys count?202.84.42.187 (talk) 09:45, 27 November 2022 (UTC)
- As far as I understand the rules, anyone in what became Kosovo prior to its independence in 2008 would not count, as it was part of Yugoslavia/Serbia post break up, which had its own leaders. I don't know about the second person, but maybe as long as they were seen as a leader as the rules recommend. As for a new section, not likely to happen. TheCorriynial (talk) 22:32, 28 November 2022 (UTC)
- He was the president of the socialist autonomous province (the SAP) from 1983-85 and was born on 6 / 6 / 1927 (age 95) .
- But the '‘’autonomous’’’ does not make it count. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 07:05, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
I don’t think so - but just eager
Do chief ministers of States and union territories of India eg Punjab, India and other chief minister-related stuff. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 14:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- What? GoodDay (talk) 17:29, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Parkash Singh Badal 202.84.42.187 (talk) 13:01, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Ukraine
There is a first vice prime minister of Ukraine who’s name is Ihor Yukhnovskyi (Born 9/01/1925) and is still living and healthy as of December 2 2022, the day this message was sent. And apparently he’s ninety-seven. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 13:01, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think he'll count. Unless you can prove he was the main leader of Ukraine at time of transition from a Soviet state to a separate state, then maybe. TheCorriynial (talk) 17:23, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- Was there a prime minister at that time? GoodDay (talk) 17:29, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- At the time, he over lapped with a PM (Leonid Kuchma), who's still alive, but he was born in 1938. TheCorriynial (talk) 23:07, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
- Ukraine has had pms since 1917 with no vacancy , including the resignation of Arseniy Yatsenyuk 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:42, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but it looks like for the rules, likely only presidents and PMs of Ukraine would be be accepted, as there are some similar examples in the list before, if memory serves, but someone like GoodDay could correct me. (i.e Paul Biya) TheCorriynial (talk) 13:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- We try to limit the list to heads of state & government, with exceptions for acting-heads of state or government (when there's vacancies), or representatives of heads of state. GoodDay (talk) 19:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- Update: After checking Rulers.org, it appears they only list Presidents and PMs as leading Ukraine, but unless the UN document says more, I'd have to say its likely only Presidents and PM's, although it does list some acting PMs that might be first premiers normally . TheCorriynial (talk) 13:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- And Ihor Yukhnovskyi is not listed on rulers, so I'd say no. TheCorriynial (talk) 13:27, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- Update: After checking Rulers.org, it appears they only list Presidents and PMs as leading Ukraine, but unless the UN document says more, I'd have to say its likely only Presidents and PM's, although it does list some acting PMs that might be first premiers normally . TheCorriynial (talk) 13:23, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
- We try to limit the list to heads of state & government, with exceptions for acting-heads of state or government (when there's vacancies), or representatives of heads of state. GoodDay (talk) 19:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, but it looks like for the rules, likely only presidents and PMs of Ukraine would be be accepted, as there are some similar examples in the list before, if memory serves, but someone like GoodDay could correct me. (i.e Paul Biya) TheCorriynial (talk) 13:22, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
Tajikistan
Apparently, there is a Tajik prime minister (chairwoman of the State Council) who’s name is Nizoramo Zaripova who was born on 6th November 1923. Not trying to disguise as Krastyu Trichkov, She is 99-years old. trying to add her because the Soviet guy Ivan Silayev held this weird position. In the list he is a ‘’Chairman of the Council of Ministers’’ literally the same as ‘’Chair man/woman of the State council. Does she count? 202.84.42.187 (talk) 08:00, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- Tajikistan was a member of the Soviet Union at the time, as one of the 15 states. StjepanHR (talk) 16:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
The link in the provided source by Nikkan Sports appears to have become unavailable, so likely a new source or an archive of it needs to be found. TheCorriynial (talk) 14:12, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
- Internet Archive's Wayback Machine has the source archived, so it might be worth editing the source to make it use the Internet Archive's saved data. TheCorriynial (talk) 22:05, 30 December 2022 (UTC)
1934 births
I think this concept of a table is a good one.
As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rudolf Schuster | Slovakia | President (1999–2004) | 4 January 1934 | Added to main list 9/7/2022 |
| Jean Chrétien | Canada | Prime Minister (1993–2003) | 11 January 1934 | Added to main list 15/7/2022 |
| Mudar Badran | Jordan | Prime Minister (1976–1979; 1980–1984; 1989–1991) | 18 January 1934 | Added to main list 31/7/2022 |
| Édith Cresson | France | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 27 January 1934 | Added to main list 30/8/2022 |
| Eddie Fenech Adami | Malta | Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004) President (2004–2009) |
7 February 1934 | Added to main list 8/9/2022 |
| Mohamed Ennaceur | Tunisia | Acting President (2019) | 21 March 1934 | Added to main list 4/11/2022 |
| J. Y. Pillay | Singapore | Acting President (2017) | 30 March 1934 | Added to main list 5/11/2022 |
| Édouard Frank | Central African Republic | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 5 April 1934 | Added to main list 30/11/2022 |
| John Malecela | Tanzania | Prime Minister (1990–1994) | 19 April 1934 | Added to main list 31/12/2022 |
| Pedro Pires | Cape Verde | Prime Minister (1975–1991) President (2001–2011) |
29 April 1934 | Added to main list 3/1/2023 |
| Henri Konan Bédié | Côte d'Ivoire | Acting President (1993–1995) President (1995–1999) |
5 May 1934 | |
| Lee Hong-koo | South Korea | Prime Minister (1994–1995) | 9 May 1934 | |
| Heng Samrin | Kampuchea (People's Republic of) | President of the Council of State (1979–1992) Party General Secretary (1981–1991) |
25 May 1934 | |
| Monica Dacon | Saint Vincent and the Grenadines | Acting Governor-General (2002) | 4 June 1934 | |
| Albert II | Belgium | King (1993–2013) | 7 June 1934 | |
| Mikio Aoki | Japan | Acting Prime Minister (2000) | 8 June 1934 | |
| Gérard Latortue | Haiti | Prime Minister (2004–2006) | 19 June 1934 | |
| Désiré Rakotoarijaona | Madagascar (People's Republic of) | Prime Minister (1977–1988) | ||
| Dumitru Mazilu | Romania | Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) | 24 June 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem | Angola | Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) | 24 August 1934 | |
| Ricardo de la Espriella | Panama | President (1982–1984) | 5 September 1934 | |
| Apas Jumagulov | Kyrgyzstan | Prime Minister (1993–1998) | 19 September 1934 | |
| Eugene Koffi Adoboli | Togo | Prime Minister (1999–2000) | 3 October 1934 | |
| Yakubu Gowon | Nigeria | Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) | 19 October 1934 | |
| Hamilton Green | Guyana | Prime Minister (1985–1992) | 9 November 1934 | |
| Ingvar Carlsson | Sweden | Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996) | ||
| Nicéphore Soglo | Benin | Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991) President (1991–1996) |
29 November 1934 | |
| Tarcisio Bertone | Vatican | Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) | 2 December 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Pratibha Patil | India | President (2007–2012) | 19 December 1934 | |
| Stjepan Mesić | Yugoslavia Croatia |
President of the Presidency (1991) President (2000–2010) |
24 December 1934 | |
| Paulin Obame-Nguema | Gabon | Prime Minister (1994–1996) | 28 December 1934 | |
| Waldo Bernal Pereira | Bolivia | Junta member (1980; 1981) | 1931/1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/22 |
| Félix Mouzabakani | Congo-Brazzaville | Co-Commander of the Army (1963) | 1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022 |
– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
My I suggest to add a source and ages for the upcoming oldest living state leaders which are born beginning 1934. LeoXIPP (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
1934 births
I think this concept of a table is a good one.
As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rudolf Schuster | Slovakia | President (1999–2004) | 4 January 1934 | Added to main list 9/7/2022 |
| Jean Chrétien | Canada | Prime Minister (1993–2003) | 11 January 1934 | Added to main list 15/7/2022 |
| Mudar Badran | Jordan | Prime Minister (1976–1979; 1980–1984; 1989–1991) | 18 January 1934 | Added to main list 31/7/2022 |
| Édith Cresson | France | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 27 January 1934 | Added to main list 30/8/2022 |
| Eddie Fenech Adami | Malta | Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004) President (2004–2009) |
7 February 1934 | Added to main list 8/9/2022 |
| Mohamed Ennaceur | Tunisia | Acting President (2019) | 21 March 1934 | Added to main list 4/11/2022 |
| J. Y. Pillay | Singapore | Acting President (2017) | 30 March 1934 | Added to main list 5/11/2022 |
| Édouard Frank | Central African Republic | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 5 April 1934 | Added to main list 30/11/2022 |
| John Malecela | Tanzania | Prime Minister (1990–1994) | 19 April 1934 | Added to main list 31/12/2022 |
| Pedro Pires | Cape Verde | Prime Minister (1975–1991) President (2001–2011) |
29 April 1934 | Added to main list 3/1/2023 |
| Henri Konan Bédié | Côte d'Ivoire | Acting President (1993–1995) President (1995–1999) |
5 May 1934 | |
| Lee Hong-koo | South Korea | Prime Minister (1994–1995) | 9 May 1934 | |
| Heng Samrin | Kampuchea (People's Republic of) | President of the Council of State (1979–1992) Party General Secretary (1981–1991) |
25 May 1934 | |
| Monica Dacon | Saint Vincent and the Grenadines | Acting Governor-General (2002) | 4 June 1934 | |
| Albert II | Belgium | King (1993–2013) | 7 June 1934 | |
| Mikio Aoki | Japan | Acting Prime Minister (2000) | 8 June 1934 | |
| Gérard Latortue | Haiti | Prime Minister (2004–2006) | 19 June 1934 | |
| Désiré Rakotoarijaona | Madagascar (People's Republic of) | Prime Minister (1977–1988) | ||
| Dumitru Mazilu | Romania | Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) | 24 June 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem | Angola | Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) | 24 August 1934 | |
| Ricardo de la Espriella | Panama | President (1982–1984) | 5 September 1934 | |
| Apas Jumagulov | Kyrgyzstan | Prime Minister (1993–1998) | 19 September 1934 | |
| Eugene Koffi Adoboli | Togo | Prime Minister (1999–2000) | 3 October 1934 | |
| Yakubu Gowon | Nigeria | Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) | 19 October 1934 | |
| Hamilton Green | Guyana | Prime Minister (1985–1992) | 9 November 1934 | |
| Ingvar Carlsson | Sweden | Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996) | ||
| Nicéphore Soglo | Benin | Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991) President (1991–1996) |
29 November 1934 | |
| Tarcisio Bertone | Vatican | Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) | 2 December 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Pratibha Patil | India | President (2007–2012) | 19 December 1934 | |
| Stjepan Mesić | Yugoslavia Croatia |
President of the Presidency (1991) President (2000–2010) |
24 December 1934 | |
| Paulin Obame-Nguema | Gabon | Prime Minister (1994–1996) | 28 December 1934 | |
| Waldo Bernal Pereira | Bolivia | Junta member (1980; 1981) | 1931/1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/22 |
| Félix Mouzabakani | Congo-Brazzaville | Co-Commander of the Army (1963) | 1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022 |
– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
My I suggest to add a source and ages for the upcoming oldest living state leaders which are born beginning 1934. LeoXIPP (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
Unproven possibilities and future additions
There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found | ||||
| Emmanuel Bruny | Haiti | Executive Government Council (1957) | 1915 | |
| Feliciano Avelar | El Salvador | Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) | 1919 | |
| Max Bolte | Haiti | Executive Government Council (1957) | 1920 | [11] says he died before 2000 |
| Avtar Singh | Sikkim | Political Officer (1964-1966) | 1920 | Unlikely position qualifies; possibly died in 2015 [12] common name/surname combination though |
| Ricardo Falla Cáceres | El Salvador | Junta of Government (1960-1961) | 1921 | Spanish wiki [13] and some other sources claim 1929-1990 |
| Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas | Bolivia | Junta of Commanders of the Armed Forces (1971) | 1922 | Possibly 1926-2000? |
| Marino Vagnetti | San Marino | Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) | 1924 | |
| Ahmad al-Sayari | Yemen (Kingdom) | Prime Minister (1962) | 1924 | Unclear status/DoB list No citation, see discussion below |
| Ri Kun-mo | DPR Korea | Premier (1986-1988) | 1926 | Likely deceased, see discussion below |
| Ambrose Patrick Genda | Sierra Leone | Chairman of the National Reformation Council (1967) | 1927 | Likely deceased, see discussion below |
| Emmanuel Bodjollé | Togo | Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) | 1928 | Needs a better citation |
| Michel Lévêque | Monaco | Minister of State (1997-2000) | July 19, 1933 | Needs a more recent citation |
| Martin M'Bia | Congo (People's Republic of the) [a.k.a. Congo-Brazzaville] |
Member of the Military Committee (1977) | 1934 | Unclear status/DoB list No citation |
| Óscar Pammo Rodríguez | Bolivia | Junta member (1981) | 1934 | Unclear status/DoB list No citation |
| Severiano Tura | San Marino | Captain Regent (1985) | c. 1934 | Unclear DoB list No citation |
| Soviet transition; I'd argue for inclusion | ||||
| Jānis Vagris | Latvia | Communist Party Secretary (1989-1990 | October 17, 1930 | state sovereignty declared 7/28/1989 alive as of 2010-10-18 |
| Vaino Väljas | Estonia | Communist Party Secretary (1988-1990) Communist Party Chairman (1990-1991) |
March 28, 1931 | state sovereignty declared 11/16/1988 alive as of 2018-04-10 |
- "None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party." – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:57, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
1. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 and later to be done): (U=3, A=0)
- Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
- Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
- I agree he's very likely deceased, though I notice that the page reference given in the German article (p679) can't be right because the publisher only lists the book as having 332 pages! Curiously, Genda doesn't appear on List of heads of state of Sierra Leone at all - I don't know why, as others in 'office' for as little as a couple of days do appear. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 12:16, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- Asked about him on German Wiki, he died in 2002, the user told me that the source is "The Paradoxes of History and Memory in Post-Colonial Sierra Leone". I still won't cross him, as I can't preview the book, but I am 99% sure he is not alive anymore StjepanHR (talk) 15:11, 7 November 2021 (UTC)
- Ri Kun-mo, North Korea, prime minister, 1926, published in 2004, chronology through 2001, now disputed. Died in 2001 according to Alexandre Mansourov.
- Emmanuel Bodjollé, Togo, committee, 1928
2. Upcoming (1933) - now on the list above StjepanHR (talk) 22:53, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
- Albert Ndele is very much alive according to his niece on twitter. We just have to find a source. --160.78.232.4 (talk) 15:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)
Would it be a good idea to reduce the above list by consolidating categories? For example the 'Highly unlikely' and 'Unlikely' groups could probably be merged at this point. An alternative might be to separate out the entries that have been struck through and put those that haven't in their own section? I think either would make it quite a bit clearer which ones have been 'dealt with' and which still need to be. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 20:28, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
- Frankly, I think we should just put all of them into the table above, without any "subcategories", but I always forget to do so. Those categories are a relic from the initial list from a decade ago, when there were much more leaders with unknown status. P.S. I have removed the dead leaders from the list. I usually leave them for some time, so other can see the reason for removal, but most of them were struck quite some time ago. StjepanHR (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I hope you don't mind, I've gone ahead and put the majority into the table as you suggest, including your remarks and references. I've left out the pre-1916 ones because of the high chance of them being deceased while at the same time extremely hard to prove. I've also kept those where the discussion is a bit longer below rather than trying to squash them into a table217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)
- Is it worth clearing off those now in the lists somewhere? Or who have since been agreed to have died/not likely living? (i.e Ri Kun-mo) TheCorriynial (talk) 20:29, 4 December 2022 (UTC)
- I would still like to have some further info about the likes of Ri and Genda before removing them. StjepanHR (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
- I'd be comfortable removing Bruny, Avelar, Bolte, Singh and Cáceres at this point - each is highly likely deceased, with no apparent progress on finding sources proving or suggesting otherwise for some considerable time; I don't think these cases will get any easier. That would leave the earliest unproven case as Vargas (b. 1922), who could probably be removed as well, though I feel less confident on that because there's not even a possible death date at [14]. I think it's clear Soviet transitional leaders don't qualify (see the comment from another user just beneath the table), so I'd remove Vagris and Väljas too. I agree Ri and Genda should remain for the time being. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with removal of Bruny, it seems odd that being if he was alive that Bruny is a centenarian, and it always seems like anyone over 100 and in most countries seem to get some kind of news of a birthday, so on.
- I'd argue that maybe someone born in 1919 could still alive if proven, but again, centenarian, seems odd not hearing anything on the person. TheCorriynial (talk) 19:56, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. Regarding Avtar Singh, he doesn't appear on the List of heads of government of the Kingdom of Sikkim, whose title at this period is given as Principal Administrative Officer, but rather on a different List of political officers in the Kingdom of Sikkim. It seems there was some distinction between the PO as representative of India and the PAO as a civil servant/technocrat/administrator. In which case, of the two the PO wouldn't really qualify for inclusion in my view 217.155.59.206 (talk) 14:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- On World Statesmen, it seems they may have been kinda of a de jure/de facto (not sure if spelled right) leader, perhaps working with Principal administrative officer at the time. Although, Sikkim was still separate from India at the time, and it should be noted in World Statesmen that Singh is listed under Indian Political Officers, so maybe Sikkim wasn't totally independent as this list might want, although in 1973 India took over running the area. TheCorriynial (talk) 14:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- I am not sure if political officers count, if he were or is still alive according to a reliable source, I'd add him to unclear status/DoB 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:36, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
- On World Statesmen, it seems they may have been kinda of a de jure/de facto (not sure if spelled right) leader, perhaps working with Principal administrative officer at the time. Although, Sikkim was still separate from India at the time, and it should be noted in World Statesmen that Singh is listed under Indian Political Officers, so maybe Sikkim wasn't totally independent as this list might want, although in 1973 India took over running the area. TheCorriynial (talk) 14:55, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. Regarding Avtar Singh, he doesn't appear on the List of heads of government of the Kingdom of Sikkim, whose title at this period is given as Principal Administrative Officer, but rather on a different List of political officers in the Kingdom of Sikkim. It seems there was some distinction between the PO as representative of India and the PAO as a civil servant/technocrat/administrator. In which case, of the two the PO wouldn't really qualify for inclusion in my view 217.155.59.206 (talk) 14:06, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'd be comfortable removing Bruny, Avelar, Bolte, Singh and Cáceres at this point - each is highly likely deceased, with no apparent progress on finding sources proving or suggesting otherwise for some considerable time; I don't think these cases will get any easier. That would leave the earliest unproven case as Vargas (b. 1922), who could probably be removed as well, though I feel less confident on that because there's not even a possible death date at [14]. I think it's clear Soviet transitional leaders don't qualify (see the comment from another user just beneath the table), so I'd remove Vagris and Väljas too. I agree Ri and Genda should remain for the time being. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 15:28, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
- I would still like to have some further info about the likes of Ri and Genda before removing them. StjepanHR (talk) 16:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
Governors of the U.S.A
Do governors of the U.S. states count e.g. Al Quie who would be number 1 and George Nigh.
There are many other 1929-1924ers who served as governors. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 13:52, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- No, as the only accepted US leader is Presidents, unless Vice Presidents holding office temporary count, but @GoodDay does that seem correct to you based on what is said in qualifications? TheCorriynial (talk) 17:35, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- just curious if governors are ACTUAL state leaders. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 13:52, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
- US state governors don't meet the criteria. They're neither heads of state or government of independent countries. GoodDay (talk) 18:00, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure consensus in the past has been to excluded short temporary office holding, such as when a state leader is having surgery, so US Vice Presidents won't count. I think it would be worth considering someone like Winston Peters though, who was the Acting Prime Minister of New Zealand from June 21, 2018 to August 2, 2018, since that's much longer than the ~2 hours that Dick Cheney and Kamala Harris were Acting President. Emk9 (talk) 18:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Winston Peters is not listed at List of prime ministers of New Zealand and in NZ is not regarded as having been a Prime Minister. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 21:37, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- If PMs there are seen on the same level as Governor-General, then it might be worth putting up to be discussed. But it would need convincing evidence, id think. TheCorriynial (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- IMHO, the governors-general should be removed, as they're merely representatives of a head of state. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yes.
- If a representative of a head of state is there, so can Krastyu Trichkov be logically. 202.84.42.187 (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- I checked the talk archives, Archive 4 (Acting state leaders), and 5 (Sirikit) suggest a semi consensus that temporary acting US Vice Presidents would likely not make the list. But, its seems the Governor-General issue was never really addressed. TheCorriynial (talk) 20:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- For use in this discussion, the United Nations list of heads of state and government includes the Governor-General as well as Charles III as the heads of state for the Commonwealth realms. https://www.un.org/dgacm/sites/www.un.org.dgacm/files/Documents_Protocol/hspmfmlist.pdf Emk9 (talk) 21:57, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- So, likely not being removed, since the UN is generally used on here as source that validates those on the list. TheCorriynial (talk) 22:06, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- For use in this discussion, the United Nations list of heads of state and government includes the Governor-General as well as Charles III as the heads of state for the Commonwealth realms. https://www.un.org/dgacm/sites/www.un.org.dgacm/files/Documents_Protocol/hspmfmlist.pdf Emk9 (talk) 21:57, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- IMHO, the governors-general should be removed, as they're merely representatives of a head of state. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure consensus in the past has been to excluded short temporary office holding, such as when a state leader is having surgery, so US Vice Presidents won't count. I think it would be worth considering someone like Winston Peters though, who was the Acting Prime Minister of New Zealand from June 21, 2018 to August 2, 2018, since that's much longer than the ~2 hours that Dick Cheney and Kamala Harris were Acting President. Emk9 (talk) 18:08, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
- Also I think this question is due to the list being for "state leaders" but "state" in this context refers to sovereign states, rather than administrative states. Emk9 (talk) 18:11, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
Archiving bot
Can someone who's better with the Wikipedia bots fix it so that its not attempting to archive still involving posts like 1934 births? TheCorriynial (talk) 14:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
1934 births
I think this concept of a table is a good one.
As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rudolf Schuster | Slovakia | President (1999–2004) | 4 January 1934 | Added to main list 9/7/2022 |
| Jean Chrétien | Canada | Prime Minister (1993–2003) | 11 January 1934 | Added to main list 15/7/2022 |
| Édith Cresson | France | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 27 January 1934 | Added to main list 30/8/2022 |
| Eddie Fenech Adami | Malta | Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004) President (2004–2009) |
7 February 1934 | Added to main list 8/9/2022 |
| Mohamed Ennaceur | Tunisia | Acting President (2019) | 21 March 1934 | Added to main list 4/11/2022 |
| J. Y. Pillay | Singapore | Acting President (2017) | 30 March 1934 | Added to main list 5/11/2022 |
| Édouard Frank | Central African Republic | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 5 April 1934 | Added to main list 30/11/2022 |
| John Malecela | Tanzania | Prime Minister (1990–1994) | 19 April 1934 | Added to main list 31/12/2022 |
| Pedro Pires | Cape Verde | Prime Minister (1975–1991) President (2001–2011) |
29 April 1934 | Added to main list 3/1/2023 |
| Henri Konan Bédié | Côte d'Ivoire | Acting President (1993–1995) President (1995–1999) |
5 May 1934 | Added to main list 6/2/2023 |
| Lee Hong-koo | South Korea | Prime Minister (1994–1995) | 9 May 1934 | Added to main list 9/2/2023 |
| Heng Samrin | Kampuchea (People's Republic of) | President of the Council of State (1979–1992) Party General Secretary (1981–1991) |
25 May 1934 | Added to main list 11/2/2023 |
| Monica Dacon | Saint Vincent and the Grenadines | Acting Governor-General (2002) | 4 June 1934 | Added to main list 22/4/2023 |
| Albert II | Belgium | King (1993–2013) | 7 June 1934 | Added to main list 23/4/2023 |
| Mikio Aoki | Japan | Acting Prime Minister (2000) | 8 June 1934 | |
| Désiré Rakotoarijaona | Madagascar (People's Republic of) | Prime Minister (1977–1988) | 19 June 1934 | |
| Dumitru Mazilu | Romania | Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) | 24 June 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem | Angola | Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) | 24 August 1934 | |
| Ricardo de la Espriella | Panama | President (1982–1984) | 5 September 1934 | |
| Apas Jumagulov | Kyrgyzstan | Prime Minister (1993–1998) | 19 September 1934 | |
| Eugene Koffi Adoboli | Togo | Prime Minister (1999–2000) | 3 October 1934 | |
| Yakubu Gowon | Nigeria | Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) | 19 October 1934 | |
| Hamilton Green | Guyana | Prime Minister (1985–1992) | 9 November 1934 | |
| Ingvar Carlsson | Sweden | Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996) | ||
| Nicéphore Soglo | Benin | Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991) President (1991–1996) |
29 November 1934 | |
| Tarcisio Bertone | Vatican | Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) | 2 December 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Pratibha Patil | India | President (2007–2012) | 19 December 1934 | |
| Stjepan Mesić | Yugoslavia Croatia |
President of the Presidency (1991) President (2000–2010) |
24 December 1934 | |
| Paulin Obame-Nguema | Gabon | Prime Minister (1994–1996) | 28 December 1934 | |
| Waldo Bernal Pereira | Bolivia | Junta member (1980; 1981) | 1931/1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/2022 |
| Félix Mouzabakani | Congo-Brazzaville | Co-Commander of the Army (1963) | 1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022 |
| Severiano Tura | San Marino | Captain Regent (1985) | c. 1934 | Added to unclear DoB list 8/2/2023 |
– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
My I suggest to add a source and ages for the upcoming oldest living state leaders which are born beginning 1934. LeoXIPP (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Adding to prevent further archiving TheCorriynial (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
1934 births
I think this concept of a table is a good one.
As of 27 December 2021, there are 3 people left to add to the hidden 5 in the main article table. I could only find these people going through 1934#Births (again, feel free to add others or remove those who are deceased):
| Name | State | Position | Birth | note |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Rudolf Schuster | Slovakia | President (1999–2004) | 4 January 1934 | Added to main list 9/7/2022 |
| Jean Chrétien | Canada | Prime Minister (1993–2003) | 11 January 1934 | Added to main list 15/7/2022 |
| Édith Cresson | France | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 27 January 1934 | Added to main list 30/8/2022 |
| Eddie Fenech Adami | Malta | Prime Minister (1987–1996; 1998–2004) President (2004–2009) |
7 February 1934 | Added to main list 8/9/2022 |
| Mohamed Ennaceur | Tunisia | Acting President (2019) | 21 March 1934 | Added to main list 4/11/2022 |
| J. Y. Pillay | Singapore | Acting President (2017) | 30 March 1934 | Added to main list 5/11/2022 |
| Édouard Frank | Central African Republic | Prime Minister (1991–1992) | 5 April 1934 | Added to main list 30/11/2022 |
| John Malecela | Tanzania | Prime Minister (1990–1994) | 19 April 1934 | Added to main list 31/12/2022 |
| Pedro Pires | Cape Verde | Prime Minister (1975–1991) President (2001–2011) |
29 April 1934 | Added to main list 3/1/2023 |
| Henri Konan Bédié | Côte d'Ivoire | Acting President (1993–1995) President (1995–1999) |
5 May 1934 | Added to main list 6/2/2023 |
| Lee Hong-koo | South Korea | Prime Minister (1994–1995) | 9 May 1934 | Added to main list 9/2/2023 |
| Heng Samrin | Kampuchea (People's Republic of) | President of the Council of State (1979–1992) Party General Secretary (1981–1991) |
25 May 1934 | Added to main list 11/2/2023 |
| Monica Dacon | Saint Vincent and the Grenadines | Acting Governor-General (2002) | 4 June 1934 | Added to main list 22/4/2023 |
| Albert II | Belgium | King (1993–2013) | 7 June 1934 | Added to main list 23/4/2023 |
| Mikio Aoki | Japan | Acting Prime Minister (2000) | 8 June 1934 | |
| Désiré Rakotoarijaona | Madagascar (People's Republic of) | Prime Minister (1977–1988) | 19 June 1934 | |
| Dumitru Mazilu | Romania | Member of the National Salvation Front Council (1989) | 24 June 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Fernando José de França Dias Van-Dúnem | Angola | Prime Minister (1991–1992; 1996–1999) | 24 August 1934 | |
| Ricardo de la Espriella | Panama | President (1982–1984) | 5 September 1934 | |
| Apas Jumagulov | Kyrgyzstan | Prime Minister (1993–1998) | 19 September 1934 | |
| Eugene Koffi Adoboli | Togo | Prime Minister (1999–2000) | 3 October 1934 | |
| Yakubu Gowon | Nigeria | Head of the Federal Military Government (1966–1975) | 19 October 1934 | |
| Hamilton Green | Guyana | Prime Minister (1985–1992) | 9 November 1934 | |
| Ingvar Carlsson | Sweden | Prime Minister (1986–1991; 1994–1996) | ||
| Nicéphore Soglo | Benin | Acting Prime Minister (1990–1991) President (1991–1996) |
29 November 1934 | |
| Tarcisio Bertone | Vatican | Camerlengo during papal vacancy (2013) | 2 December 1934 | Unclear status list |
| Pratibha Patil | India | President (2007–2012) | 19 December 1934 | |
| Stjepan Mesić | Yugoslavia Croatia |
President of the Presidency (1991) President (2000–2010) |
24 December 1934 | |
| Paulin Obame-Nguema | Gabon | Prime Minister (1994–1996) | 28 December 1934 | |
| Waldo Bernal Pereira | Bolivia | Junta member (1980; 1981) | 1931/1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 13/2/2022 |
| Félix Mouzabakani | Congo-Brazzaville | Co-Commander of the Army (1963) | 1934 | Added to unclear status/DoB list 9/7/2022 |
| Severiano Tura | San Marino | Captain Regent (1985) | c. 1934 | Added to unclear DoB list 8/2/2023 |
– Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe Waldo Bernal Pereira should be added to the main article (unknown birth with unclear status) StjepanHR (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- I put Bernal Pereira in an unknown birth with unclear status table; it was deleted by another user.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 21:24, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Any recent media coverage? Star Garnet (talk) 22:04, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Adding to prevent further archiving TheCorriynial (talk) 20:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)