Talk:List of oldest living state leaders/Archive 5

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Adnan Pachachi

He had severed as Prime Minister of Iraq for one month, but Iraq was not completely independent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.83.52.190 (talk) 03:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Pachachi deserves his spot. But some people don't. I think members of large collective presidencies which had indeed a recognized leader should not be included. Here is who should be removed:

  • Omar Graffigna: Secondary junta collaborator, never acknowledged as a Head of State, inexplicable presence here.
  • Maria Schneider: East Germany State Council was way too large. So many members could still be alive and would outcrowd the list. Immediate removal-
  • Krastyu Trichkov: He was always a deputy or counsellor, never a HOS.
  • Ali Haroun: HCS had his two leaders and other members should not count as Heads of State.
  • Doina Cornea: Too many members in the Salvation council. Hardly had a HOS role.
  • Alfred Miodowicz and Eugenia Kempara: Same as for Scheider. Immediate removal.

Plus Bodjollé source does not adfirm he was alive in 2013 and I'm convinced Genda did die in 2015. But since I can't prove the latter he should remaain here. Great spot for Jules Sedney, congrats to anyone who added him. --Folengo (talk) 10:23, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

No! The source adfirms Genda was present at a meeting which happenedv in 1968 so it does not even remotely adfirms he was alive in 2012! Since we know someone named Ambrose Patrick Genda died in London in 2001 we mantain it was him (and it seems much plausible) and this Genda is immediately removed. Bodjollé can stay, at least till he is not confirmed to have died. --Folengo (talk) 11:02, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree that Graffigna, Schneider, Trichkov, Miodowicz and Kempara should be removed for the same reasons You have mentioned. They were a members of the ruling councils, but they had clear leaders. I am against inclusion of Pachachi and Sedney, since their countries were not nominally independent during their rule. I strongly oppose removal of Ali Haroun. Section "Unclear status as state leaders" was originally created for "members of collective presidencies, interim leaders or widely recognised leaders whose true power was limited" (see any page revision before mid-December, 2017 or a note in current revision). Doina Cornea should also be included, as the council had no clear leader during the 4 days it was "in office". StjepanHR (talk) 13:03, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Forget what I wrote about Haroun, I was convinced that High Council of State had no chairman (I was wrong in my personal notes), but it had. I agree with Folengo 100% in regards to Haroun. Let's wait for other opinions and edit the article for good. StjepanHR (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Ok, if we reach consesus we can remove them. The list is definitely overcrowded. Pachachi IMHO was Prime Minister for a short time in 2004 and he should be included. Sedney was prime minister and it is well documented he's still alive, so he can be here. Cornea detained very little power and the whole council thing was not too serious. Anyway, let's hear some other usual contributors. --Folengo (talk) 13:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Thomas Remengesau Sr.

I don't think Palau was independent during his term. Any experts in that field that could prove otherwise? StjepanHR (talk) 08:09, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

B S Das

I think this [1] obituary is his, but am not 100% sure it's him or that obituarytoday.com is a reliable source. Also the spelling is slightly different, but his memoir says he was awarded the Padma Shri in 1972, and the list for the award has the same spelling as the obituary, as does the first source on his page. Any thoughts? Emk9 (talk) 18:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it appears to be the same person. Unless anyone has previously found obituarytoday.com to be unreliable I see no reason not to accept it and update his article accordingly and remove him from this list. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 04:02, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
I checked the reliable sources noticeboard, and didn't find anything about it, so I'll update the list/his page Emk9 (talk) 04:35, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Timeline

It should be listed? The oldest living state leader in the world at that time.

Fanfluff OR. Not encyclopedic. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 05:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Delete, as it's original research & doesn't add anything to the article. GoodDay (talk) 14:12, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
If IPs continue to add this desptie the consensus that it does not belong here then this page will get semi-protected. Again. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 22:23, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Interesting information,but should have more of an intro.Perhaps better as its own article?...analogous info is provided for certain United States officeholders.12.144.5.2 (talk) 07:59, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions#It's interesting. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:11, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
I said more than just that it was interesting.A more practical issue is the ambiguous status of Ek Yi Oun.--12.144.5.2 (talk) 19:39, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

Tun Tin source

Is the new Tun Tin source reliable? To me it seems to be directly influenced by what is written on this Wikipedia page. StjepanHR (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

This [2] (2017-09-17) one seems good either way. Emk9 (talk) 21:16, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
No. Agree that it is copied from Wiki. Facebook cannot be used either. Note that this is not to assert that he is NOT still alive, merely that there is as yet no reliable source stating that he is. The Facebook page looks like it was copied from somewhere, if that source could be located then it would likely be considered reliable. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 22:00, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
No, man, Facebook source contains photos and is reliable as any other source. Or do you prefer to remove a living man because there is "no proof" he is alive? The goal of the alive as of column is to demonstrate people on the list are still alive, how it does it is not important. And this precisely demonstrates Tun Tin was still alive as of September. We stayed 8 years without a source, this one should not be missed. Who agrees? --Folengo (talk) 10:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)--Folengo (talk) 10:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
WP:FACEBOOK. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:26, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Ok, so we can't find a source for 8 whole years, find one that contains recent photos of him without any reasonable doubt, but can't use it because facebook is bad. I'd like to listen to someone else, please. Don't be thick headed, we won't have an opportunity like this for years! And you need consensus to remove it, too. --Folengo (talk) 10:34, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Actually, no I don't: This article falls under WP:BLPRS and can be removed at any time. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:42, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Ok, now keep calm. None of us wants to be blocked, I guess. I'd like to listen to the opinions of some other usual contributors, such as @Emk9:, @Jwkozak91:, @EternalNomad:, @StjepanHR: and the IPs who usually contribute to this. --Folengo (talk) 11:50, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
Recommend that it be removed. GoodDay (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Remove: 2 Keep:1 I wait for other opinions. --Folengo (talk) 14:06, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I can't see how this is not good enough while Lovo Cordero's profile on My Heritage, who could be anyone, or Pachachi Flickr photos are. Going to remove that too immediately. --Folengo (talk) 15:37, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

On Your Advice I removed:

  • Mohammad Hasan Sharq: YouTube is not reliable.
  • Ravan Fahradi: Twitter is not reliable
  • Lovo Cordero:MyHeritage is not reliable
  • Pachachi: Flickr is not reliable (and it's the only one I actually think it is not).

If Tun Tin's source is not good these are not good too. Consistency.--Folengo (talk) 15:45, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Just as I got reverted for editing Natalie Pack's article,after she announced on her verified accounts on Twitter and Instagram,that she had passed a real estate exam,to say that she had made that announcement.Sometimes wikipolicies get really ridiculous.12.144.5.2 (talk) 17:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Keep: 2, Remove: 2.

I'll be out till Friday, so I'll let you know my reasons and plans. I think we should bring back all the reliable sources on Fahradi, Sharq, Cordero and Tun Tin. These men are all very much alive, but getting a source about them is incredibly incredibly difficult! I got the Tun Tin's Facebook source directly from Burmese friends as it is almost impossible to find it in the West. Fahradi source is from 2017, shows him with another diplomat. Last source before that was from 2009, which means he will be removed next year when we know for certain he is alive! Tun Tin is a special case. He is so obscure in the West he got no source in 8 years, 8 long years. That Facebook post is completely reliable, shows him and is consistent in every detail. Why would we remove it? Sharq youtube videos is very reliable too, but you can't exclude it only because it is YouTube. The goal of this list is demonstrating state leaders are alive, while wouldn0t videos and photos of them not count? I hope you undestand, this was a great article before the last two days.

My idea is we have to reinstate the leaders I removed and Tun Tin's 2017 source. Hope someone will undestand. Thanks to the IP for his support. Do the checks you want, it's not me. Other guys you are being soooo thick headed. Don't take that as an offense, but it is the truth. Bye, see you Friday. --Folengo (talk) 17:20, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Here are some more guidelines you should read: WP:V and WP:CONSENSUS. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 17:49, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I feel like recent pictures of somebody should be enough for the purpose of this list. Social media is allowed for uncontroversial claims, and I think being alive isn't usually controversial. Emk9 (talk) 18:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

It seems Cordero dies few days ago: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1Ycj2nAWk6sJ:www.informepastran.com/prueba/%3F__hstc%3D6099180.7a43b48361753a522fe15ee280992c93.1472515200060.1472515200062.1472515200063.2%26__hssc%3D6099180.1.1472515200063%26__hsfp%3D1773666937+&cd=13&hl=hr&ct=clnk&gl=hrmStjepanHR (talk) 18:10, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think we should use the source, as the account posting it is not verified. There is a politician Nay Zin Lat from Burma, who may or may not be the same person as on the Facebook page, but we cannot verify. I'm not doubting that Tun Tin is still alive (and think he very likely is) but we go by policy, not probability. EternalNomad (talk) 21:23, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Anyway BBC dedicated an entire Facebook post to Tun Tin, before writing this article mainly, but not only, about him. The rest of the article may have been taken from here, but BBC is a very reliable source ad the opening part is about Tun Tin. Plus we know from other Facebook posts he is still alive. I'm intentioned to add this source, BBC is completely reputable and has surely verified he was still alive before writing the article. It's BBC, not Radar Online! --Folengo (talk) 18:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

1. The report is from BBC Burma, not the BBC, which means it is either the Burmese translation of UK based reporting or from journalists in Myanmar. But considering that 2. Myanmar has a long history of censorship it means that... 3. ... it is not "completely reputable" in this case and there is certainly no guarantee that anyone "surely verified he was still alive" which means that 4. there is still nothing to suggest that this article was not copied from Wikipedia. All of which means that 5. there is still no consensus to use this report as confirmation that Tun Tin is still alive, in fact clearly the consensus is against. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 22:44, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
1.BBC has many independet language versions, which reports completely different things. You won't find the same article from English BBC. BBC Burma mainly reports things happening in Burma, like BBC Ting Viet in Vietnam and so on. All different articles ans no tranlsations. 2. Myanmar is now a free republic, the military are out of power and journalism is pretty much free. Plus, even the worst dictature wouldn't censor news on a 97 year old former Prime Minister. I mean, how this can be dangerous for government? 4. It is objective that the people mentioned in the article are the oldest state leaders and so on. No proof it was copied by Wikipedia. Or if I report somewhere Maxwell's laws you could say it was copied from Wiki because the article on Wiki is identical. 5. Consensus is not only two people. I wait for other opinions. --Folengo (talk) 09:57, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Jules Sedney

Jules Sedney was Prime Minister of Suriname from 1969 to 1973. Should he be added to this list? 92.108.15.73 (talk) 22:00, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

No,Surinamese independence was not until 1975.12.144.5.2 (talk) 04:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Okay, but a prime minister of a country thats part of another country is still a state leader, isn't he? 92.108.15.73 (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Not for the purposes of this list.12.144.5.2 (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Ri Gun Mo/Ri Kun-mo

While he doesn't have a biography at NKLeadershipwatch,I note a Google Books hit on "North Korea:The Politics of Regime Survival" (ISBN 1317463765) whose 2015 edition includes an essay "Emergence of the Second Republic:The Kim Regime Adapts to the Challenges of Modernity" by Alexandre Y. Mansourov in which Ri Gun Mo is referred to as deceased.Much of the book actually dates to 2005 or so.He could have been dead for quite a while.12.144.5.2 (talk) 17:24, 12 May 2018 (UTC) note left on my talk page Emk9 (talk) 17:28, 12 May 2018 (UTC)

  • No one has died in North Korea since late 2016. I don't think Ri Kun Mo's death will ever be announced, he is just too obscure. NK is a harsh dictatorship, so having info about him is nearly impossible. We could write to Mansourov to see if he provides something, but personally I think Li Gun Mo is dead, or, if still alive, we won't know about his death. My fear is that Kim Yong-ju is also dead, no photos of him in three years. Hope the process of normalization in NK goes on, but it will be a long road before it becomes a normal country. My opinion is we have to remove Li Gun Mo. --Folengo (talk) 18:31, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
"No one has died in North Korea since late 2016". I wonder what their secret is for such an outstanding record! DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
    • Not so difficult to understand. KCNA is not announcing deaths or publishing obituaries. And if deaths are not announced we can not determine who is dead and who is alive. Even Kim Yong-ju's , uncle of the Dear Leader, death would not be announced. Do not ask me why but last KCNA obituary was published in November 2016 and since then nothing. Worrying. Folengo. Can't sign it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Folengo (talk • contribs) 11:22, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I think that, unless there is reason to believe that the book is unreliable (I've looked up the authors and they seem to be respected scholars), or there is evidence contradicting the claim, we can remove him from the list, as a reliable source makes the claim and it is not for us to question parts of a reliable source. EternalNomad (talk) 21:12, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
No. The book was written in 2005 and last source adfirming he was alive was found by you @EternalNomad: and dates back to 2011. So there is not consistency between those sources. Either we write to the authors to demand a precise DoD or we reinstate him due to most recent (2011) source. Fake death reports are common in those Countries so we can not rely too much on a single source. Good luck with finding the Truth ;).
The book as found on Google Books is a 2014/15 reissue,more recent than the 2011 claim of survival.12.144.5.2 (talk) 21:32, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Given that it seems unclear whether that part of the book was written in 2005 or 2014 (or any time in between), I think it would be most appropriate to leave him off the list, and in Possibly living people as is being done now. The list should only contain people that have not been reported deceased, or whose death reports are reliably confirmed to be incorrect, which we don't know at this point. Unfortunately, trying to contact the authors would be futile as both of them died in 2014. EternalNomad (talk) 22:29, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Mansourov appears to be alive even if the editors are not.12.144.5.2 (talk) 22:55, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • @EternalNomad:, the essay was written by Alexandre Mansourov who is currently an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. It could have been written after the first release of the book. Anyway it may ne not so difficult to ask Mansourov himself...
Someone added that he died c. 2012 to both his English and Korean Wikipedia pages, but without a source. Could be just vandalism, as I didn't find anything on the web, but I don't read Korean, so someone who does could possibly follow up. Canadian Paul 16:55, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Desperately needed sources

Here are the leaders whose sources date back to years before 2016 or 2016.

2014:

  • 1)Edward Babiuch (1927) Prime Minister of Poland. Legit State Leader completely disappeared from the public scene in the last ten years. No doubt he is still alive and a source will be found in a near future.

2016:

  • 1)Hyun Soong-jong (1919), Prime Minister of South Korea. Absolutely no problem, well documented he is still alive and will get great coverage.
  • 2)Ali Bozer (1925), Prime Minister of Turkey. Not really famous, but being a former Prime Minister we should know when he dies. Not so sure anyway given how brief his duty was.
  • 3)Balakh Sher Mazari (1928), Prime Minister of Pakistan. He had a minor minor role in the history of his country, but funerals are a big think in Pakistan, so we won't miss him.
  • 4)Milos Radulovic (1929), Jugoslavia Federal President. He held an important seat, his passing will be promptly reported.
  • 5)Otar Patatsia (1929), Prime Minister of Georgia. He is not famous at all and apparently completely retired. Don't take him for granted, because his passing won't necessarily get coverage. One to keep an eye on, if possible.
  • 6)Jamshid bin Abdullah (1929), Sultan of Zanzibar. No problem here.
  • 7)Lee Hyun-jae (1929), Prime Minister of South Korea. As much as it is difficult to find news about one of the 4358 living former Prime Ministers of South Korea, his death in a democratic country won't be missed.
  • 8)Mohammad Hasan Sharq (1925), Chairman of Afghanistan Council of Ministers. Though he appears to be in great health, he now lives in exile and could disappear from the radar easily. One to keep an eye on. --Folengo (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Milos Radulovic died in 2017, here is his obituary (in Montenegrin) [3]. His death passes rather unreported since he was obscure interim head of state in Milošević era. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.94.109.105 (talk) 09:00, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
Confirmed on his profile; struck through on this list. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:55, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Franjo Boras

There seems to be an edit war about the inclusion of Mr. Boras on the list. Personally I'd struggle to find a real reason for which he should be included.

  • )As IPs pointed out, presidents of Yugoslavia states were not included here in the past (I remember I tried to include Vratusa to no avail)
  • )Boras has not an article on en. wiki
  • )There is no whatsoever source adfirming Boras is still alive

I think this clearly goes against the purposes of this page. So my opinion is he should be removed. --Folengo (talk) 12:44, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Fixed source and uncorrect piping. Strongly against inclusion anyaway.--Folengo (talk) 12:50, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

  • Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence from SFR Yugoslavia on 1 March 1992. Franjo Boras was a Member of the collective Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina representing the Croat community then, and until 20 October 1993. So Boras was a Member of the collective Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina for over a year AFTER independence, and AFTER independent state recognition by the United Nations on 9 April 1992.
    • If the collective presidency of Bosnia had a leader that person qualifies.LE (talk) 19:43, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
The first Chairman of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, from 1992 to 1998, was Alija Izetbegović. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 01:15, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Also, Biljana Plavšić is waiting. You didn't delete her.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 01:14, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

I'll do it now. We had strong discussions some time ago about members of collective presidencies (Ali Haroun, Maria Schneider, the Poles, exc.) and decided to remove them. I'll keep this list simplier as possible, with only very legit heads of state/government on it. Thanks for contributing, though. --Folengo (talk) 16:25, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Babiker Awadalla 2

So Awadalla is now number one. What I ask here is, are we really sure he's still alive? We already kept a dead Telmo Vargas as number one for years and Awadalla's case has always been controversial. This article claims he died in September 2016 aged 99 and the site also published this story for which he was admitted to the list in 2015. In March 2017 he was removed from the list by @EternalNomad: after that source was found, anyway he was readded a few months later because a Sudanese news site reported they had speak with Babiker Awadala on 23 May 2017. The article is no longer available.

They claimed he lived in Dublin. In fact a pediatrician named Babiker Awadalla lives in Dublin and he could be his son. And a wrong report of death is plausible. But then a source from May 2018 claims he is living in Alexandria, Egypt and not in Dublin! A travel like that would be difficult for a 101 year old man, so I don't know what to think. I'd like to avoid another Telmo Vargas, but the situation is really confused. @Emk9:, @Lancelot:, @StjepanHR: and everyone else who contributes to the page. --Folengo (talk) 18:55, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

I really don't know what to do. The situation is indeed similar to the one with Mr. Vargas. I would leave him on the list for now, but if it's in any way possible to research the situation in Arabic, it would be nice. Unfortunately, my Arabic consists only of very basic tourist phrases, so I can't help.StjepanHR (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
I agree that somebody who speaks/reads arabic would help figure this out. Maybe contacting the Sudaress and/or the pediatrician in Dublin would help as well. Emk9 (talk) 21:51, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
It's alive, it's alive!!! --Folengo (talk) 09:31, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
He was alive...--79.40.121.234 (talk) 18:14, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2019

Pamin Farin (talk) 22:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

@Pamin Farin: What are you requesting? Emk9 (talk) 03:40, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

"Citation" format

The present inline links lack sufficient bibliographic detail - they should be replaced with more complete citations. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:38, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

No more biographical detail is needed. Each entry is sufficiently notable to have their own article which will contain such detail. As this article is based on their age and that they are still alive those details are sufficient for this article. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 04:54, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Or are you suggesting that the bare urls be made into full citations? DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 04:55, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
The latter. I'm not referring to biographic detail but bibliographic. Nikkimaria (talk) 11:42, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
The urls are there merely to indicate that the person is, or was recently, alive. I have previously tried to have them removed as unnecessary; by virtue of being included in this article they are assumed to be alive until otherwise indicated. While it is Wiki policy to cite everything I don't see that changing to full citations will improve this article. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 21:44, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
If they aren't being considered citations, they shouldn't be there at all - but it would make more sense to have them as actual citations. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:01, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Unproven possibilities and future additions

There is a list of all leaders for which there is not a death date on Rulers.org (at least before one month), and I sorted them in few categories (U stands for "unproven", A for "alive"):

1. Highly unlikely of being alive (born before 1916): (U=7, A=0)


2. Unlikely to be alive (1916-1920): (U=5, A=0)


3. Moderate possibility of being alive (1921-1925): (U=6, A=0)


4. Good possibility of being alive (1926-1929, 1930 to be done): (U=3, A=0)

  • Ambrose Patrick Genda, Sierra Leone, head of government, 1927, somebody with the same name died in London in 2001 (and in "Reinventing the Colonial State: Constitutionalism, One-party Rule, and Civil" (p. 138), it is claimed that he had lived in London) and German wiki claimed he died in 2015
  • Ri Kun-mo, North Korea, prime minister, 1926, published in 2004, chronology through 2001, now disputed. Died in 2001 according to Alexandre Mansourov.
  • Emmanuel Bodjollé, Togo, committee, 1928


5. Upcoming (1931)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2019

Can I Update this write protected article Johnkimley dalog labasan (talk) 14:26, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Once you are autoconfirmed then you can edit. Or go to WP:RFPP to request that page protection be rescinded. Elizium23 (talk) 14:35, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Sir Michael Hardie Boys.

Sir Michael Hardie Boys is still alive - & served from 1996 to 2001 as Governor-General of New Zealand. He was born on 6 October 1931. - (124.197.55.28 (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2020 (UTC))

Yes he is, but he's not old enough to make the top 100 on this list. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
In fact, he's already in the hidden list, and would be number 104 if the list went that far. Emk9 (talk) 19:04, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Communist Party leaders aren't state leaders

There are some state leaders (that they were presidents of the country), but they were also presidents and prime ministers of the country. These leaders are: Khamtai Siphandon Jiang Zemin Mikhail Gorbachev Raúl Castro So the position of leaders of the Communist Party need to be removed, because that position is not a state leader (example: Milos Jakes is in the unclear state leader list) Mancu32 (talk) 14:17, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Lol. You realize this is the same thing as saying that Kim Jong-un isn't a state leader or that Gorbachev wasn't when the Tear down this wall! speech was given. Communist Party chairs/leaders/secretaries are (essentially universally) considered de facto state leaders for good reason. Star Garnet (talk) 20:54, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

And why is Milos Jakes in the unclear state leader list? Mancu32 (talk) 06:41, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Apparently there was a brief discussion between two editors a few years ago that appeared to point towards exclusion of de facto leaders. Consistent application of that would require the removal of the Peruvian prime ministers (not heads of government but recognized as such by the United Nations). Star Garnet (talk) 16:33, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Potential addition

John Cremona, who celebrated his 101st birthday last January may qualify. According to Malta's national archives, "On several occasions he assumed, in an acting capacity, the functions of Head of State (Governor-General and later, President)."

Whether that means he assumed the role when it was vacant or when the HoS was unavailable, I'm not sure. Worldstatesmen and archontology have him as acting president from 25 to 27 December 1976, but that doesn't exactly square with the official bio of the President who left office (Anthony Mamo), supposedly on December 26. I'm not sure when he acted as Governor General, but it's possible that it happened just before Mamo became acting GG.

I suspect this may require an email to their national archives, but if anyone else would like to do some digging it would be welcome.

Star Garnet (talk) 04:10, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

And it's a no. It just occurred when the HoS was away or indisposed. Star Garnet (talk) 16:34, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Andorra

One topic that hasn't been discussed is whether the Veguers (and their replacements, personal representatives) of Andorra would qualify. My interpretation is they are essentially Governors General under a different title. I would say that Francesc Badia i Batalla probably at least qualifies for the unclear status list. Star Garnet (talk) 22:22, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree that they are essentially governors general Emk9 (talk) 22:32, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
No problems with their additions. GoodDay (talk) 16:44, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Addition of photographs

Does anybody else like the addition of photographs as you can see at User:Star Garnet/Sandbox? Does anybody object to this new format? Star Garnet (talk) 18:05, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

The list looks strange to me with the pictures, but I'm not certain why. Might be a combination of some leaders not having pictures, switching between black and white vs. color, and some of the pictures being lower quality. It might just be due to seeing the list without pictures for years. However, since I generally like images in other articles, I'd support adding these. Emk9 (talk) 21:41, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Proposed revision to header

There are a few issues that I believe need to be clarified on this page and the longest-lived page. Issues that are clarified in the following version: inclusion of governors-general, inclusion of internationally recognized de facto leaders (PMs of Peru, party leaders), inclusion of Taiwan (as well as Palestine, Kosovo, SADR, exclusion of Northern Cyprus and probably South Ossetia and Abkhazia). Proposed revision:

This article lists the 100 oldest living current or former state leaders whose age can be demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt. State leaders are defined to include heads of state (including representatives who act in their stead, generally a governor-general), heads of government and internationally recognized de facto leaders[α] of sovereign states with significant international recognition. Leaders are not included if no reliable secondary sources have confirmed that the leader is alive within the last 10 years. The oldest living former state leader is Hyun Soong-jong of South Korea at the age of 105 years, 117 days. Leaders currently in office are in bold on purple, with Mahathir Mohamad of Malaysia being the oldest currently-serving head of government and Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom[β] being the oldest currently-serving head of state.

  1. ^ Including but not limited to Prime Ministers of Peru, recognized as heads of government by the United Nations[1] and party leaders of single-party states.
  2. ^ In 1952, Princess Elizabeth acceded as the monarch of seven Commonwealth realms. She currently reigns as Queen of 16 sovereign states including the United Kingdom. From 1957 to 1983, most of her British colonies attained independence, and some joined the other realms in different years; most states ceased to be a realm upon becoming republics.
  1. ^ Heads of State, Heads of Government, Ministers for Foreign Affairs. United Nations Protocol and Liaison Service.

Star Garnet (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

What are you proposing? GoodDay (talk) 17:45, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Pretty much just greater clarity. The only effect on the list would be moving Milos Jakes to the full list. Star Garnet (talk) 18:26, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
Support, also should this effect List of longest-living state leaders as well, which I think would add Gheorghe Apostol as well as Milos Jakes to that list. Emk9 (talk) 21:50, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2020

May I edit this protected article, to update the ages of this current and former state leaders. Labsanjohnkimley96 (talk) 08:42, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

​You can suggest edits here on this talk page on the form "Please change X to Y" citing reliable sources. – Thjarkur (talk) 13:25, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
@Labsanjohnkimley96: the ages update automatically, but if your browser caches the page this might not display. However, by adding ?action=purge to the end of the url, you can force the cache to clear and the ages will then be properly displayed. Emk9 (talk) 15:44, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Keep an eye on

I like to see how the interest about this list has been reinvigorated recently. I agree Jakes should be back on the main list. Since many on the list are pretty obscure (you see Abdul Latif Dayfallah's death has gone unnoticed for a year) I'd suggest a few names we should keep an eye on more than others. Not in the sense there won't be obituaries for them, but it is not obvious we can't find them (see above). So:

  • Mustafa Ben Halim: living in exile, relatively obscure, but I'm sure he is stilla alive for now. BTW his daughter Sherine died some years ago and went unreported (know it from Instagram posts from the family). One to keep an eye on, definitely. Arab name: مصطفى بن حليم
  • Abdelsalam Majali: a senior statesman who won't go without fanfare, but obits will probably be only in Arabic, so search for his name. BTW, his brother died last October.
  • Arturo Armando Molina: no appearances for years, I even doubt he is actually alive. Anyway Carlos Humberto Romer was removed before his death, so I would be cautios with Molina. Still, he has completely disappeared from public eye.
  • Edward Babiuch: Poland is a country from which I wouldn't expect to overlook the death of a former PM. But this man is a ghost, I couldn't even find a photo of him in his late years. Not sure he is alive, actually.
  • Lee Hyun-jae: see what I wrote for Hyun Soong-jong.
  • Umar Arteh Ghalib: very obscure and nothing after that 2018 source.
  • Mohammad Hasan Sharq: he was alive and (very) well last summer, but he is in exile and reports could be only in pashto.
  • Kim Yong-ju and the North Koreans: It's KCNA or nothing. So if they decide it is not to be announced we'll never know. Yang, Kim Yong-nam and Choe are respected statesmen, so no doubt they will get fanfare. Kim Yong-ju is not liked to much by his nephew, so I think we'll remove it when he will be "110". (BTW, born in 1922 according to NK, not 1920).

--Folengo (talk) 20:07, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Folengo, you do realize that "asking someone on another Wikiproject" is not a WP:RS? Elizium23 (talk) 20:12, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Actually I ask and they find reliable sources, usually from government, confirming he is still alive, because of their higher knowledge of Burmese language (which is incomprehensible for a foreigner). I don't see what s possibly wrong with it. Folengo (talk) 20:39, 14 February 2020 (UTC)
Folengo, if you are saying it's a kind of WP:RX situation then by all means, carry on. Of course the best experts on sources in their language would be active editors there. I just thought you were seeking anecdotal information or something. Trout me already! Elizium23 (talk) 06:05, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Actually, the update of Arturo Armando Molina (that is in the list), is not relacionated with him. I suggest we need another update, or the remove of Molina — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mancu32 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:08, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Pié Masumbuko

Pié Masumbuko, who was Prime Minister of Burundi in 1965, is older than Sir Paulias Matane and should be on the list. Alive as of May 2019. --Folengo (talk) 18:47, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Marino Vagnetti

Marino Vagnetti was the captain-regent of San Marino in 1971-1972 and 1989. She was born in 1924. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nik21graden (talk • contribs) 08:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Rubén Darío Paredes

He was military de-facto leader of Panama in 1982-1983. Also He was born in 1931. Nik21graden (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, he was born in 1933. Nik21graden (talk) 18:16, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

al-Majali

He should be moved to the uncertain date of birth list. Because according to his article of Wikipedia, he was born on April of 1925, not on 18 February. Mancu32 (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

His Simple english, Farsi and Russian pages say that his birthday was 18 February, but the majority of other translations just say 1925 without a day or a month.Khronicle I (talk) 18:34, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 August 2020

MAY I UPDATE THIS ARTICLE DAILY KILLERXR (talk) 09:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. ​ - Flori4nK t • c 10:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Adding all of the state leaders whose status is unclear

Why don't we give these five state leaders a chance to recognise their leadership KILLERXR (talk) 12:33, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussions have already taken place about the status of those state leaders (those discussions are available in the talk page archives): If I've understood correctly, Josip Manolić was prime minister of Croatia when it was newly independent and unrecognised. It's possible that Kim yong-ju is no longer alive. This is also the same with Mohammad Hassan Sharq. The position of acting sovereign of Vatican city is also unclear. Khronicle I (talk) 12:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Remove Kim Yong-ju

Because he was a vicepresident, not a President or a Prime Minister. Vicepresident is not a state leader, so why iti is on the Unclear List? Also, he was born in an uncertain date on 1920 Mancu32 (talk) 21:17, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

We can remove him from the list because he is not a state leader at all KILLERXR (talk) 21:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
This was written for him when he was included: "the four vice-presidents formed a comitee (from the constitution (1972 version with slight changes in 1990's): " The Presidium of the Supreme People’s Assembly continues its work until the Presidium is newly elected, even after the term of the Supreme People’s Assembly expires.", that means that even after the death of the president, the presidium was de jure still in power until replaced by the new one: the only doubt I have is if this change is from 1998 or 1992)" StjepanHR (talk) 23:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

He is already removed KILLERXR (talk) 00:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

No, I restored him since the above comment lays out the case well for his initial inclusion and since this discussion hasn't reached a consensus. Emk9 (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

List expansion

Why don't we expand the list of oldest living state leaders from 100 to 150 KILLERXR (talk) 00:15, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Because 100 is the standard number for this type of list. Expanding to 150 would be WP:LISTCRUFT and Wikipedia is overloaded with listcruft already. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 01:33, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I was thinking even if only 10 will be added KILLERXR (talk) 01:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

100 is standard for theses kinds of list. Khronicle I (talk) 13:03, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Adding new column

Is there a possibility to add the birth name of the state leaders KILLERXR (talk) 08:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

No. Please stop wasting time with these pointless requests. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 08:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Merging of the state leaders with same age

What if we merge all state leaders with same ages into one ie Selim Hoss Lee Hyun-jae and Milan Panilç to number 56 and Efraín Goldenberg to no. 57 KILLERXR (talk) 12:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Efraín Goldenberg was born eight days later. Khronicle I (talk) 13:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean those state leaders with same ages and following their numbers respectively KILLERXR (talk) 13:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

For example Sir William Deane and Cleopa Msuya are 75 and 76 and Chun Doo-hwan is no 77 why don't we just let them share the 75 Spot and Chun Doo-hwan is the 76th oldest KILLERXR (talk) 13:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Sir William Deane and Cleopa Msuya were both born on 4 January 1931, Chun Doo-hwan was born on the 18 January 1931. If they are not the same age why would they share the same spot? Khronicle I (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

We can have both of them on The 74th spot so as Selim Hoss Lee Hyun-jae and Milan Panilç on the 56th KILLERXR (talk) 13:48, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Panić, Lee and Hoss are already in the 56th position. Toshiki Kaifu is in the 74th position because he was born 2 days before Deane and Msuya. So I don't see a reason to change anything there. Khronicle I (talk) 14:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

They're already tried but the truth is they're numbers are 56, 57 and 58 respectively KILLERXR (talk) 14:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by tried, but as they were all born on the 20 December 1929 they all occupy the 56th position. Khronicle I (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

What I mean is that if we'd unmerge their numbering they'd occupy between 56 and 58 KILLERXR (talk) 15:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Can I do the thing that I'm requesting so that you may. See what I mean KILLERXR (talk) 15:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I honestly don't see why anything should be changed. Khronicle I (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Let's do this so that you may see what I mean KILLERXR (talk) 15:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I know what you mean but the ranking doesn't need to be changed. Khronicle I (talk) 15:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Can we Just have individual ranking especially for the state leaders with same ages KILLERXR (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

No, because they are the same age.Khronicle I (talk) 15:45, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Oppose: The international standard of displaying statistics or results at Olympic Games shows ranking ties in results/medal count always in the exact same way this article has been displaying ranking ties, just with equal signs (=); but I think that's inefficient visual clutter, along with hyphens (–). So, I'm opposed to any change in the current format. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 08:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Tied ranks

I propose to change the numbering of tied ranks in the table. Currently there are two positions which are taken by multiple people:

61: Selim Hoss, Lee Hyun-jae and Milan Panić
99: Nicola Mancino and Ahmed Laraki

We only list the first group as 61 and the latter as 99, although they obviously take 3 and 2 positions in the 100 member list. Right now the list even cosmetically looks silly, because the wording says 100 oldest state leaders and according to the numbering we are only listing 99.

So I propose to change "61" to "61-63" and "99" to "99-100" and to use this method going on when there are state leaders with the exact same birth date. Picsovina (talk) 08:28, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

It does not look "silly". Anyone familiar with ranking would know that three people grouped together with a rank of 61 means they are tied on that rank. There are no ranks 62 and/or 63. The next rank is 64 because that person has 63 people above them. It's basic logic and is the format used widely throughout Wiki where it is possible to group the rankings. Where it is not, or if noone has bothered to change it, the entries have the same rank on consecutive, separate, lines. Attempting to use "61-63" is wrong because there is no-one ranked 63rd. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 11:57, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: Same reason given by DerbyCountyinNZ Wykx (talk) 16:57, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: 1.) In this debate, everyone keeps forgetting "80" with Sir William Deane and Cleopa Msuya. 2.) The International Olympic Committee at the Olympic Games shows ranking ties in results/medal count always in the exact same way this article has been displaying ranking ties, just with equal signs (=); but I think that's inefficient visual clutter, along with hyphens (–). So, I'm opposed to any change in the current format. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 19:24, 2 June 2020 (UTC)
Ok, I accept the counter-arguments, but still think that my proposal would be a valuable addition, something to consider as it would make the table clearer and better. Picsovina (talk) 09:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Actually I am for the changing of the ranking Selim Hoss, Lee Hyun-jae and Milan Panilç currently occupied rank 57 but m technically they occupy ranks 57-59 so I propose that all of them will be number 57 and Efraín Goldenberg should be 58th KILLERXR (talk) 06:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

That's not how rankings work. There are 57 state leaders older than Goldenberg, three of them having the same age doesn't change that. Emk9 (talk) 06:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
Oppose: The international standard of displaying statistics or results at Olympic Games shows ranking ties in results/medal count always in the exact same way this article has been displaying ranking ties, just with equal signs (=); but I think that's inefficient visual clutter, along with hyphens (–). So, I'm opposed to any change in the current format. 08:03, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Balakh Sher Mazari and Mir Hazar Khan Khoso

May I also propose that these two state leaders would be moved to the addendum because of their status as Caretaker Prime Minister of Pakistan both of them were not even included in the roster of Prime Minister KILLERXR (talk) 08:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Oppose. First sentence from Caretaker Prime Minister of Pakistan "The Caretaker Prime Minister of Pakistan is the head of government in Pakistan following the dissolution of the National Assembly." It seems they are in a separate article because Pakistan has had more caretaker prime ministers than other countries. Emk9 (talk) 15:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Ali Hassan Mwinyi at Chama Cha Mapinduzi

While he became president of Tanzania in 1985 he did not become head of the party until 1990 (as is stated in both his and Julius Nyerere's articles). It was also remarked on in news at the time that Nyerere was only giving up the presidency for the time being. In 1992 the party ceased to have sole legal status so its headship after that is immaterial to the article. 96.250.80.27 (talk) 20:42, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I've noted elsewhere that the inclusion of being president of a party does not seem appropriate for these articles. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 21:09, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Reduce hidden list to 3

The sole purpose of the hidden list is, or should be, to enable the immediate restoration of the list to 100 entries if someone dies. In which case for the vast majority of the time only one hidden person is needed. It is extremely unlikely that more than 3 would ever be needed. Having 10 or even serves no purpose except to allow a few editors to treat it as part of the main list, which in no way improves the article for other readers. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 19:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, limit it to three. GoodDay (talk) 19:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually there is no need to reduce the number of state leaders in the hidden list from 10 to 3 because I think 10 is standard KILLERXR (talk) 23:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

No it isn't. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 23:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Mohammad Hassan Sharq

May I propose to add him to the list because he was a former Prime Minister of Afghanistan from 1988-89 though his position was Chairman of the Council of Ministers O do believe that his Status is very clear KILLERXR (talk) 15:09, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Nicola Mancino

May I propose that we remove him from the list because I think his Status is Unclear because he is not included in the list of Presidents of the Italian Republic but as a substitute only KILLERXR (talk) 06:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I recommend that you take a break from these requests. It's getting annoying. GoodDay (talk) 08:48, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Chronological list of Eldest living state leaders

May I propose that we include a chronological list of the eldest living state leaders since 1893 KILLERXR (talk) 02:53, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

No. Fanfluff. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 04:19, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Why no KILLERXR (talk) 06:46, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Why are you being so determined to change things on this & related articles? These articles are alright the way they are & have been for quite sometime. GoodDay (talk) 08:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

We'll actually the proposal is only to give notice that several state leaders became they became eldest living but they were actually not yet 90 KILLERXR (talk) 09:41, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Including Regents

Sirikit was regent for a little time in Thailand in 1956, and was born in August of 1932. It is considered as a leader by the Worldstatesmen page. For example, the now death Prem Tinsulanonda was in the list with the position of Prime Minister (1980-1988), and Regent (2016), so why don't we consider regents as state leaders? Mancu32 (talk) 18:21, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Adding new paragraph

May I propose to include a paragraph which gives notice of the most recent deaths of state leader

For example "The Most recent death of an oldest living former state leader was that of Canadian Prime Minister John Turner who was 91 years, 108 days on 18 September 2020, no oldest state leader have died during the last 3 years, 247 days" and this same paragraph to be added to the list of longest living state leaders. KILLERXR (talk) 23:07, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Why do you want to add this? Ya don't have to tinker with things. GoodDay (talk) 23:18, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the reply KILLERXR (talk) 09:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Inclusion of Dušan Čkrebić

Dušan Čkrebić should be added to the list because he was a former President of Serbia KILLERXR (talk) 09:31, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

No. Serbia was not fully independent. Only state leaders of fully independent countries are included. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:11, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok thanks @DerbyCountyinNZ KILLERXR (talk) 11:07, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

consolidation of the living as of dates

can we consolidate the living as of in to one date but we will no longer remove the citations which will prove that they're still living KILLERXR (talk) 03:21, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

No, the whole point of that column is to track the age of the sources for each person, since if there isn't a source within 10 years they are removed. Emk9 (talk) 04:17, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

My point is that only those state leaders who has lived in the last ten years with reliable sources are are included but through consolidation we can able to track down that they're still living in a day to day basis KILLERXR (talk) 04:31, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't work because the "living as of" would then just be the oldest date, 2012-07-14, since that is the last date that we have sources for all 100 being alive. Emk9 (talk) 04:59, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

But...if we remove the column how will we know that Queen Elizabeth hasn't died since the last update??? DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 05:01, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

</sarcasm> DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 19:22, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

can we add a hatnote template for a regular update on ages just like on the list of longest living state leaders KILLERXR (talk) 05:04, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

we can still assume that the British Monarch is still living because there are still news which points that she is still alive we can only assume that she has died if his eldest son The Prince of Wales acedes, actually there are news which is pointing out that Queen Elizabeth II is refusing to abdicate in favour of his son The Prince of Wales . KILLERXR (talk) 05:13, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I've a better idea. Why not leave things the way they are. Don't keep trying fix something, that isn't broken. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
thanks @GoodDay (talk) KILLERXR (talk) 1:51, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Gombojavyn Ochirbat:s Status

Is the position of a General Secretary considered a state leadership, because on the brief note that the head of state of Mongolia is a Present KILLERXR (talk) 13:06, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

General Secretary of what? GoodDay (talk) 13:10, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
a political party KILLERXR (talk) 13:30, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
If the party in question is the sole legal party in a country its leader is often the most powerful person in the country and is included on that basis.96.250.80.27 (talk) 21:16, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Can we Move him back to the Addendum KILLERXR (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Ask the others, who frequent this article. GoodDay (talk) 23:46, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
ok thanks KILLERXR (talk) 00:03, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

New column: Image

Can we add a column for the image of the state leaders and remove the gallery KILLERXR (talk) 07:23, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Joseph Lagu

Is he considered a state leader as South Sudan is an Autonomous Region of Sudan in 1978, so as Abel Adler, and if they are considered to be so can we include them in the list KILLERXR (talk) 09:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

No. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 10:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Okay thanks KILLERXR (talk) 10:22, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Sirikit

Sirikit is on the list due to being regent while her husband entered the Buddhist monkhood for a period of time. However in that case, there was no vacancy in the monarchy, the regent was just acting in his place. Are such individuals eligible for this list? For example, Dick Cheney was Acting president of the United States on June 29, 2002 and July 21, 2007, so would he eventually be eligible?73.110.217.186 (talk) 03:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

If Rama IX the Great was incommunicado while a monk, then he could not reign. If Rama IX could speak while a monk, then Sirikit should not be on this list.– Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:52, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
I admit that I'm not familiar with the legal procedures involving it, but there doesn't seem to have been a break in his reign, since his reign is dated from 9 June 1946 – 13 October 2016.73.110.217.186 (talk) 05:56, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
Note there's also people like Winston Peters who was acting Prime Minister of New Zealand from 21 June 2018 to 2 August 2018 to take into consideration.73.110.217.186 (talk) 03:13, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
if that's the case why is she still in the list can we already remove her KILLERXR (talk) 00:11, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Because the discussion is still ongoing. Emk9 (talk) 01:17, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

IMHO, regents and acting heads of state – acting heads of government for incapacitated leaders (although not applicable for Rama IX) are eligible for this list. I await being persuaded otherwise. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 04:43, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

So Why was the Queen Mother of Thailand not removed from the list if her Regency is not applicable during King Rama IX "The Great" KILLERXR (talk) 05:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
Because the discussion is still ongoing. Articles are based on consensus, and just because one person has voiced an opinion doesn't mean the article should be updated immediately. Emk9 (talk) 05:26, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
I wasn't clear enough: Sirikit is still a regent even though Rama IX was physically well enough to lead the country. The word "incapacitation" does not apply to Sirikit's regency. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 22:36, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Mohammad Hassan Sharq

Can we enjoin him in the above list because he was a former Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of Iraq, as he was a former PM he should be in the list KILLERXR (talk) 01:18, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

1.) Mohammad Hasan Sharq was prime minister of the Democratic Republic of -Afghanistan-. 2.) He was Prime Minister. Not Leader of the People's Democratic Party of Afghanistan or President of the Republic. And Leader of the Party is the most powerful office in all Communist states, ex: The general public doesn't know that Mikhail Kalinin was Head of State of the Soviet Union, they only hear about General Secretary Marshal Stalin. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:09, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
He headed the Government KILLERXR (talk) 20:38, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Nicola Mancino

After I looked at the Article List of Presidents of The Italian Republic I found out that Mr. Mancino's status is clear as he appears on the section Subscribe Presidents, can we put him back above KILLERXR (talk) 01:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

In the Italian language Wikipedia article of List of presidents of Italy, is Nicola Mancino in the main table with the other presidents, or is he in a separate section like in the English language article? – Jwkozak91 (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
KILLERXR (talk) 20:33, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
He wasn't included in the Italian Wikipedia Article KILLERXR (talk) 20:34, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm Italian and no one there would consider Nicola Mancino a former president. Absolutely no way. --79.24.120.96 (talk) 10:11, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Edmund Wickham Lawrence

Can anybody verify that Edmund Wickham Lawrence was born in 1932 as opposed to 1935? The unsourced change dates back to this IP edit. Star Garnet (talk) 03:57, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Potential additions

Name State Position Birth note
Possibly dead, but potential additions if a recent source can be found
Feliciano Avelar El Salvador Member of the Civic-Military Directory (1961-1962) 1919
Rota Onorio Kiribati Acting President (1982-1983) 1919
Jaime Florentino Mendieta Vargas Bolivia Junta Member (1981) 1922
Jean-Antoine Grégoire Eugène Haiti Member of the Executive Government Council (1957) 1924
Marino Vagnetti San Marino Captain Regent (1971-1972, 1989) 1924
Emmanuel Bodjollé Togo Chairman of the Insurrection Committee (1963) 1928
Albert Ndele Congo, Democratic Republic Chairman of Board of Commissioners (1960) August 15, 1930
Soviet transition; I'd argue for inclusion
Yefrem Sokolov Belarus Communist Party Secretary (1990) April 25, 1926 state sovereignty declared 7/25/1990
alive as of 2016-04-26
Abdurrahman Vazirov Azerbaijan Communist Party Secretary (1989-1990) May 26, 1930 state sovereignty declared 9/23/1989
alive as of 2020-07-09
Jānis Vagris Latvia Community Party Secretary (1989-1990 October 17, 1930 state sovereignty declared 7/28/1989
alive as of 2010-10-18
Vaino Väljas Estonia Communist Party Secretary (1988-1990)
Communist Party Chairman (1990-1991)		 March 28, 1931 state sovereignty declared 11/16/1988
alive as of 2018-04-10
Solid possibilities for inclusion
Queen Kesang Choden Bhutan Regent (1972) May 21, 1930 alive 2020-05-20 or 2016-05-20
César Yanes Urías El Salvador Member of the Junta (1960-1961) April 25, 1931 unclear status list?
alive as of 2018-10-11
None of the Soviet Republic Party Secretaries in this table were in power when their republics were recognized as independent states by other United Nations member states, or by the Commission of the European Economic Community, which should be the criterion for their inclusion in the main article table. Vaino Väljas is a special case, as he was still Party Chairman on August 20, 1991 (the day Estonia restored its independence); however, the Popular Front of Estonia had won the ESSR's republic elections on March 18, 1990, and were directing the government in Tallinn, not the republic's Communist Party.
The Solid possibilities for inclusion are interesting, and I will investigate these later, probably 22 hours from now. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 07:46, 29 March 2021 (UTC)
Regarding Rota Onorio, John Pitchford The Last District Officer Chapter 11 in the section headed 'Broadcasting Authority' [11] says he was in "failing health" and "the poor fellow died". Although no date is given, the author acted as chairman of a public body in his place, so I would tend to believe the statement. Would this be sufficient to remove him from the list?217.155.59.206 (talk) 18:38, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Josip Manolić

Starting a discussion on the edits to include Josip Manolić in the main list here and on List of longest-living state leaders‎. Based on the last discussion in 2017, the consensus seems to be that since Croatia was not recognized as an independent country until after Manolić's resignation as prime minister, he should not necessarily be included on the main list. There's also the matter of the Brioni Agreement which suspended Croatia's independence declaration until October. Emk9 (talk) 20:49, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, he does not belong. GoodDay (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
There are several points that are disputed here. The declaration of independence undoubtably occurred on 25 June 1991. This was done through a constitutional declaration of Croatia's parliament (a legally binding act, and not just a symbolic statement of intent). Furthermore, under Croatia's constitution (adopted on 22 December 1990, and still in force to this day) the Croatian Parliament is the only body allowed to determine Croatia's entrance or withdrawal from any union which changes its sovereign status. Thus, the Brioni Agreement never gained legal force, because it was never discussed or voted on by the Croatian Parliament, but was rather just signed by President Tuđman as a way to defuse tension and satisfy the EU delegation. In other words, the Brioni Agreement was not ratified and at best remained a symbolic statement. However, even if the Brioni Agreement had entered into force, it would not have nullified the declaration of 25 June, nor would it have had retroactive effect before 7 July 1991. In addition, what the Brioni Agreement suspended was not the declaration of 25 June itself, but rather any further actions to desintigrate the Yugoslav federation. And in a legal sense to suspend and to nullify are not the same thing. A suspension does not place a law out of force, it just prevents it from being carried out in practice. On 8 October 1991 the Croatian Parliament did not re-declare independence, but it rather just reiterated the same points that were already made on 25 June and it explicitly refers to the declaration of 25 June as the point at which independence was declared. As for the point of recognition, all states that recognized Crotia in 1992 (including the EU and the US) stated that they regard Yugoslavia as having been dissolved in 1991. So the US does not regard Croatia to be a sovereign state from 1992, but from its declaration of independence in 1991. Recognition is retroactive to the act of the Croatian Parliament which declared independence. 93.140.96.156 (talk) 22:36, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Here is a published scientific article by Croatian jurist Davorin Rudolf from the Faculty of Law in Split. In it he explores several options on how to perceive Croatia's status between 25 June 1991 and January 1992. The article is only available in Croatian, so I hope someone here has at least a basic understanding of the language. If not, some of the main points from it have already been summarized above by me. The name of the article is: Stjecanje međunarodnopravne osobnosti Republike Hrvatske 25. lipnja 1991. 93.140.96.156 (talk) 22:43, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Emmanuel Bodjollé

"Historical Dictionary of Togo" (2021 edition) refers to him as "retired", meaning he was alive at the time of the book (April 2021). However, I am not sure if we should include him or not, since there were previous editions of the book and this could simply be a leftover if there were not any news about him in th emeantime. On the other hand, the authors should probably be aware of possible death of a former head of state and co-leader of the 1963 coup with Gnassingbé Eyadéma, amnog others. Any other opinion? StjepanHR (talk) 19:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with your reasoning for inclusion; in which case he'd be added to the unclear DoB list (unless the source has a date in it), although it might be worth adding him to the unclear status list instead as his role was both extremely brief and constitutionally irregular (understatement!). Going off your comment on 26 August above about being as being as inclusive as possible in that list, I'd go for it. 217.155.59.206 (talk) 10:13, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm against inclusion as things stand:
  • )The source is not readily available online
  • )As the OP noted this could simply be a leftover. There is no further evidence of Bodjolle being alive in the last 40 years. No interviews, nothing. Sounds pretty strange.
  • )This page has high standards of verifiability. Don't lower them. A word in a dictionary entry probably copied from previous editions is not that valid.

I'll be happy to include him if more substantial sources show up, but not for the current state of things. Better be cautious than reporting false information!--Folengo (talk) 08:29, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Adding additional information

can we add an info about the most recent death of a state leader Jobzaiay13 (talk) 22:33, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Humaid bin Rashid Al Nuaimi III. Emir of Ajman

Emir of Ajman was born in 1931 and had ruled his emirate from 1981. He is not listed here.

  • yes he was not included mainly because the reason is that The Emirate off Ajman is Under the United Arab Emirates dominion, so the only person who should've been included in the list is The President of the United Arab Emirates Jobzaiay13 (talk) 22:43, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Adding Images

may i propose to add images of state leaders Jobzaiay13 (talk) 07:56, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

List of longest-living state leaders deletion discussion

Sorry for opening this section on this page, but the sister page of this page is also being nominated for deletion: [12] . I have noticed there is much more discussion on this page's deletion page, so I am posting this here in order for others interested in the topic to participate in the discussion. For example, I was notified only for this page and not the other one: [13] (although it's maybe because I created the first version of this one). StjepanHR (talk) 17:12, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

Why don't you recreate the said page again and I will help on looking for sources that would prove the state leaders age Jobzaiay13 (talk) 12:10, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Kim Yong-ju source

Can somebody track down an actual source for Kim Yong-ju? The current one shouldn't qualify, and I'm dubious the 2012 reference in his article is accurate. Star Garnet (talk) 20:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Would this be enough? [14] StjepanHR (talk) 02:05, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
He was shown voting in 2015 and a lot of sources reported that. Should not be difficult to find one, but the above one is enough for me.--Folengo (talk) 15:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
For the 2014 election at least. NK is generous in giving honorary titles to the dead, so I'm skeptical of his latter title meaning anything. But the 2015 voting would certainly qualify. Star Garnet (talk) 15:37, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
Actually if they did not announce his death officially it would mean he has fallen from grace and would not get honorary titles.--Folengo (talk) 16:23, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Trimming

IMHO, we should change the entry criteria & exclude 'interim', 'acting', 'party' or 'representative' officials. Examples - Regents, Party leaders, Governors-General, Acting Presidents, etc etc. Make it strictly for heads of state & heads of government. GoodDay (talk) 14:57, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

"Party leaders" should never be excluded, IMHO. I have stated my reasoning earlier. They are often (if not predominantly) THE state leaders of their respective states. Of course, in most cases, they would also hold a "president"/"prime minister" position, but often not. For example, Stalin was "only" a party leader until the 1940s, yet nobody would argue that he was the true leader od SSSR during the pre-WW2 period. As for the "acting"/"interim" leaders, I think it should be a case-by-case scenario. If those acting leaders hold full power according to their countries' constitution, they should be included. If not, they should be moved to "unclear" status (such as the Vatican leaders between two Popes). As for the representatives, they were originally excluded, but I am quite indifferent on their inclusion. I would maybe lean towards including them in "unclear" section. StjepanHR (talk) 17:38, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
The Communist exceptions are valid. The general secretary was indeed where the authority was, with the presidents or premiers being at best, the icing on the cakes. GoodDay (talk) 17:51, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
Alright then :) I thought you were talking about them (or other single party states, where the contitution provides the leading role for the party), sorry for the possible misconception. StjepanHR (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I see no reason to include party leader when the individual is/was also the president/prime minister. The latter is the actual state leader, being the president of the party may mean that they (automatically) become the state leader but it is not a state leader position itself. There should also be a minimum length of service for acting/interim state leaders; someone who is in office for 3 days is unlikely to do more than sign out their predecessor and sign in their successor. DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 20:33, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I know I sound boring, but I still insist on including single party leaders. I cited an example of SSSR, with Stalin having no head of state/government position for more than half of his rule. Brezhnev held no other positions from 1964 until 1977, Khrushchev had no other positions 1953-1958, Gorbachov 1985-1988. If any of these was removed from power before assuming other titles, would they not count as state leaders? As for current examples, Nguyễn Phú Trọng (Vietnam) is a general secretary for over a decade, but was a president for only 30 months (late 2018 - early 2021). As for the monarchy regents, I would include in the main list only those who held true power, like (I know they are all long dead): Miklós Horthy (regent without pretending monarch), Prince Paul of Yugoslavia (regent for King Peter, but held significant power) etc. Personally, I would move Sirikit to the addendum, since she was only stepping in for her husband for a few weeks while her husband was in a monastery. Those "regents" like Thai regents during the kings' foreign visits shouldn't count as leaders (not even in the addendum), IMHO, as many countries have similar formal "replacements" for a few days, while the leader is in foreign country or has minor operation/medical treatment (the USA, for example).StjepanHR (talk) 23:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
What of the governors-general from the commonwealth realms. They're representing a head of state (Elizabeth II) & are effectively regents. GoodDay (talk) 23:59, 25 November 2021 (UTC)
I would be honest and admitt that those are not really my field of interest. As I wrote, they were excluded before and I was fine with that, as I am fine with their inclusion. I guess it should be decided by users living in such states or those who posses adequate knowledge about them (I am neither of those, I am afraid :( ). StjepanHR (talk) 00:03, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
I'm skeptical of removing any of them. With the possible exception of some party leaders, they'd all be considered to be formal heads of state and/or government by foreign powers. Getting into degrees of power and tenure is a useless injection of personal opinion; plenty of presidents and PMs on this list held no real power, and plenty of 'official' presidents and PMs have very brief terms of service. Star Garnet (talk) 18:26, 26 November 2021 (UTC)
I see what You mean. However, some of the acting leaders clearly don't have full powers (such as Holy See leaders during sede vacante, Presidium of the National Council in Austria (such as during 2016-2017), etc.). Italian case is quite a weird one, since the Senate president isn't contitutionally named as "acting president", but assumes the powers of the president if there is no president or if the president is unable to perform his duty. Cases like these are precisely why I included the "addendum" five years ago. StjepanHR (talk) 21:40, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Everybody moves up the ladder.

Numberings need updating. GoodDay (talk) 08:04, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

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