Talk:Iranian cuisine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Please put some good and clear pictures in the article, the pictures don't present Chelo Kabab really good.

Thank you

--212.18.246.18 17:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

اردیبهشت is totally vandalizing this article

... as a comparison, see this excellent scholarly article in the Encyclopaedia Iranica! Some quotes:

• The Iranian culinary style, shaped by Central Asian and indigenous traditions and developed to a high degree of refinement in the Safavid period, has remained until today the norm of good cookery for the middle and upper classes. Its characteristics differ markedly from those of Ottoman cookery, which is a special combination of Central Asian Turkish and to some extent Iranian elements with old Mediterranean culinary traditions, and consequently from those of the Ottoman-influenced types of cookery now current in Turkey, some of the Arab countries, and the Balkan peninsula.

• In the present-day cookery of Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan, pasta preparations, particularly ravioli with various stuffings (under names such as āš, āšak, mantū, ḡōšbāra, qūš-tīlī, and others), still occupy an important place. In these territories, rice in a limited number of recipes is offered as a prestige food at festivals and banquets. The position is very different in Iran, where the use of rice, at first a specialty of Safavid court cuisine, evolved by the end of the 10th/16th century into a major branch of Iranian cookery. From that period have come down the two methods of serving rice most popular in Iran today: čelow-ḵoreš, a combination of boiled white rice (čelow) with a stew or sauce (ḵoreš), and polow, rice combined with various ingredients. Both are evidently techniques of Central Asian origin elaborated and diversified in Iran during the first century of Safavid rule. The rising demand led to an expansion of rice growing, mainly in the Caspian coastal provinces. Attention was concentrated on costlier, better-flavored varieties originating from northwest India, and for a long time recurrent importation of Indian seed was found necessary (Polak, Persien II, p. 138). In contrast with Afghanistan and Central Asia, the once popular pasta dishes vanished from Iranian menus. Millet consumption, long traditional in Iran, also fell because rice was preferred, and likewise the use of wheat groats (bolḡūr), which in vther Middle Eastern countries is much commoner than in Iran. On the other hand, the new fashionableness of rice at the Safavid court influenced the haute cuisine of the Mughal empire. The modern cookery of north India (sometimes known as Mughal cookery) evolved from the adaptation of Safavid skills to Indian traditions and circumstances. Many Persian and Turkish words, imported from Iran, are still current in the culinary vocabulary of North India.

• As a result of the vast conquests of the Mongols and Tīmūr, Central Asian and Far Eastern culinary practices penetrated to the Iranian plateau and merged with regional traditions of everyday cookery rather than with pre-Mongol aristocratic forms of fine cookery.

This user's racism must not be tolerated! --Lysozym (talk) 18:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I absolutely agree with you, Lysozym. User:اردیبهشت is clearly vandalizing this article and leaving out major other Asian influences. -Mtheory1 (talk) 20:24, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

This is total non-sense. In fact is quite the opposite, Iran was one of the greatest outward influence towards Central Asian ,Levantine, and European cuisine, with very superficial culinary influences from any external cultures. This is mainly because of it's ancient history of civilization and place in Mesopotamiam alluvum, gave it historical priority. Saying otherwise, is just yet another cliched effort towards painting Iran as melting pot of cultures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.41.122.130 (talk) 00:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Page protected.

I've temporarily protected this page from editing due to the large edit war going on here. Please discuss your proposed changes on this page, come to consensus, and if the dispute has been resolved, I (or another admin) can lift the protection early. For non-controversial edits, you can of course use the {{editprotected}} template. ⇒SWATJester ^{Son of the Defender} 11:06, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Move to Iranian cuisine

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:20, 7 February 2006 (UTC) Look at other cuisine pages: "Italian cuisine", "German cuisine", "British cuisine", etc. But the page Iranian cuisine is already in place, so an admin has to do the move. Aucaman^Talk 08:24, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Support, a better title as well as more consistent. - SimonP 16:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
• Support as nom. Aucaman^Talk 01:42, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

PERSIAN CUISINE

Hi, the historical and international title for this aspect of our country's life is PERSIAN FOOD or PERSIAN CUISINE. Please do not change the historical term. Almost all books, articles, resturant, etc which are related to it use PERSIAN FOOD or PERSIAN CUISINE. This title has been recorded in Western culture and terminology. "Ghazaa-ye Iraani" title is fine for Wiki Persian section. Thank You, Pejman --Pejman (talk) 00:30, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Al though the western name for Iran use to be "Persia", it has long been changed in accordance with the wishes of the last Shah of Iran in 1935. Noaccess2k (talk) 11:35, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

that might be right but we are talking about persian food, not turkish food that is cooked in azarbayjan iran , or in rasht or other parts. we are mainly talking about those cuisines cooked by persians. even in persian, we say this is a "rashti" cusine for example. so using the word "persian" might be a better idea after all. wouldn't it be better to give other cuisines from other parts of iran an article, because there are so many kinds of food used in other parts that are not eaten in other parts of iran like tehran? Lilied1 (talk) 05:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

In Iranian Azerbaijan , the local people do not cook so called "Turkish-food" ! The Iranian-Azeri culture is indeed different from other foreign cultures outside Iran.Although the word Persian and Iran are the same in the western nomenclature ,but the the understanding of concept is different inside Iran itself . Almost every local cuisine have connection with different varieties in other regions of Iran : as an example in Rasht , they use sugar in Fesenjan , but in Tehran and Azerbaijan they use promenade juice : that means in addition and in mixing local cuisines , Iran also has a melting pot of local cuisine cultures that have to be mentioned . Expansion of entries in any local cuisines can be done in a new page , with a link in the main page . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:09, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Dear friends, the name of Persia was changed in 1935 but in 1959 Shah announced because of historical/cultural reasons both terms can be used interchangabley. Even Islamic regime after 1979 revolution did not make a new decision on this matter. Now (as you can search on the net) both terms are popular. If you believe that because of name change in 1935 we can not use "Persian food" anymore, then we have to stop using "Persian Carpet", "Persian cat"! as you know all of such terms are widely used in English and other European lanaguages; "Persian food" is also one them. It's name. A cultural/historical term. Many books/articles/resruarents around the world still use this term. Changing the term creats confusion and harmful for historical background. I would like to ask again to move the page to "Persian cuisine" and redirect "Iranian food" or "Iranian cuisine" to that. Thanks. --82.95.182.23 (talk) 23:05, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Hello, although an old discussion I would like to ask a question, in relation to this issue: What is the reason that Persian cuisine is sometimes equalled with Iranian cuisine? Persian culture had a much larger geographical extent, than the borders of modern day Iran. I guess Persian cuisine can be found outside of Iran too?

I hope someone with knowledge about this can post some answers. Not just you personal opinion, but a real answer backed up by solid refs, thank you. RhinoMind (talk) 23:56, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Iranian cuisine vs. Persian cuisine

This article is literally about Iran and food - Persia is one ethnicity in Iran. I understand that some people use the term "Persia" as a colloquial for "Iran", some of this is based on past political history. But why would we be changing the entire article to focus on one ethnicity to represent an entire country which has many ethnicities and regional food? Persian cuisine should be a new article with something that distinguishes food as specifically Persian in origin. In 2006 they formally voted (above) and opted to move "Persian cuisine" to "Iranian cuisine". This same issue was informally re-opened in 2011 on this talk page (below) and as not had any result. Before people decide to make a change like this, we need to have a discussion and consensus. Jooojay (talk) 22:58, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

The relation and/or distinction between Iran and Persia is not clear as you say . Inside Iran , not speaking Persian language as mother tongue , is a known and very common cultural reality , but for ordinary non-Iranians there is no clear differentiating line between the Persian and Iranian . Almost anything that is Persian in western nomenclature , is not from the province of Fars or Persian language speaking parts of Iran , as Persian Carpet ,Persian Cat , Persian peach etc. More complicating , is the long history of mixture between ethnic cultures inside Iran . The cultural items of historic Persian culture has been adopted by various ethnic cultures inside Iran many centuries ago that is impossible to find anything that is pure and only Persian nowadays : we can say Persian culture gave all that it had to Iranian culture and disappeared long time ago . In nowadays Iran you can only find individuals that are Persian with the meaning of "Persian language" , that is national language of everyone , but no especial cultural aspect can be considered characteristic and limited to the theoretical ethnicity of Persians . Geographical sense of belonging is more common comparing to ethnic identity by far , as in cuisine , the foods are more geographical and regional rather than ethnic : In North-West Iran , Kurds and Azeris have many common dishes same as Azeris and Gillanis . Many foods that are cooked different inside an ethnicity can be the same in a region like Fesenjan that is cooked with sugar in central parts but with pomegranate juice in southern regions . So I can say no Persian cuisine exists (with the ethnic meaning) today , and we can not consider an article for that.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Okay, then what would you suggest we do as an action here Alborz Fallah? I am not seeing that in your comment. I believe we are saying the same thing about the term "Persian" being used colloquial for meaning "Iran". Are you suggesting we ignore historical references to regional cuisine? -Jooojay (talk) 06:41, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I think keeping it as it is and considering Persian and Iranian as alternative terms seems to be reasonable .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:55, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Alborz Fallah do you know if there are other English Wikipedia articles that use a colloquial term interchangeably within the article? I don't actually know if this happens elsewhere. Isn't the point of Wikipedia is to factually clarify information? These terms are not the same thing in English, even though there is an overlap in usage in both a casual and historical setting. This article is about both the current and historical aspects of food in Iran, should we acknowledge this structurally within the article? I am asking your opinion since you seem to have thoughts on this subject. Maybe a paragraph that explains what you mentioned above, something regarding Persian culture and regional/ethnic Iranian cultures have a lot of overlap in present day Iran. -Jooojay (talk) 07:42, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Labeling cultural / Biblical memory of Persia in the western memory as pure colloquial seems to be degredating for that nations . Inside Iran , Iranians called themselves Irani for thousands of years , but other nations tend to use other names , Iranians can not change other cultures with a mere decree . I was not interested in other naming norms , but if you want another Wikipedia article that use alternative names for one entity , I can mention Persia and Iran itself and in the talk page of that article , there is a huge bulk of discussion about equality of that names . Anyway , if we do so and put pressure on using the formal word of Iran , that will be meaningless for ordinary people of western cultures : Imagine if the movie Prince of Persia had some name like Iranian prince , that would be meaningless . About the current and historical aspects of food in Iran and regional/ethnic aspects of that , I agree it would be nice to discuss more in article , but I think the problem is scarcity of reliable sources . Maybe the article in Encyclopædia Iranica can help , but my English is not so good to write a flawless text . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:45, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I see your point Alborz Fallah about "Prince of Persia", however within that fictional story- it takes place in a historical past. In the English language, the word "Iran" or "Iranian" is the current country and the current people and "Persia" or "Persian" is both an ethnicity within the country current day and a past time period of rule (I would imagine in other languages these would have been two different words since it is confusing, I am sure in the Farsi/Persian language, this has a very different meaning as well). This is not about placing an intentional value system or "degradation", but I could see how this could be viewed that way. Jooojay (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Alcoholic beverages

Al though some Iranians might drink alcoholic beverages, it is not part of "Iranian cuisine" and cannot be claimed so. French cuisine on the other hand has wine as a main addition to most of their dishes. Noaccess2k (talk) 11:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

that is true though it is part of iranian historic cuisine and in some instances are still drank by other religious institutions such as the zoroastrians, jews, and others. I suggest we add it. --ParthianPrince (talk) 05:15, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

but "sharabe shiraz" or shiraz wine has been used since ancient times even noted in iran literature untill Islamic revolution so how can you say that its not a part of iranian cuisin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.145.237.104 (talk) 06:56, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

I can see, that a lot of problems on the page, stem from the equalling of Persia with modern day Iran. It is a mistake, that repeats itself on a lot of WP pages on Iran and Persia. RhinoMind (talk) 00:04, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

krusczyki

What is this? And is anyone familiar with rosettes? Deep fried thin crispy cookies made with an iron? Let me know, thanks. (ChocoCereal (talk) 19:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC))

The deep fried crispy cookies are called nan-e panjerehi (literally: window bread). I have a recipe but none of the interesting background information on it. Cammy169 (talk) 23:41, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

quotes about persian food

there are dozens of quotes, I think we should add a few. from omay khayyam to even iskander. --ParthianPrince (talk) 05:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Move Iranian Cuisine to Persian Cuisine

• This is an opening of discussion on the renaming of the page back to "Persian Cuisine." The Scythian 01:05, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Support - I support this move, and the term "Persian Cuisine" is how it is most notably known in the English speaking world, as well as the fact that this form of cuisine is trans-national, going beyond just the borders of the modern nation-state of Iran, and into Central Asia. The Scythian 01:05, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Support - "Persian Cuisine," is much more historically and culturally relevant than "Iranian Cuisine," in addition most of the world knows it to be "Persian Cuisine." Besides the modern nation state of Iran, we hear Persian Rugs, Persian Cats, Persian Food, Persian Language, Persian Culture, and Persian Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.68.148.157 (talk) 11:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello. Why was this discussion and move stopped? I think it is very relevant. I am beginning to suspect, someone is trying to pull some political strings here, with this name mess-up? I hope I am wrong. If the cons will not engage in an open discussion, let us just go ahead and make this page-move. This will bring them out, if there are any cons. And then they can perhaps explain themselves. Because equalling Persia and Iran (in any context, be it food, culture or whatever) is obviously a complete mistake. RhinoMind (talk) 00:10, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

PS. If a move is not possible for some reason, we should at least change the redirection of "Persian cuisine". But let's try a page-move first and not be overly pessimistic. RhinoMind (talk) 00:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Oppose - this issue is very much out of date now, based on the current state of this "Iranian cuisine" article reflecting all of the different regional cuisines and ethnicities. I think "Persian cuisine" should have it's own article with citations, explaining what makes Persian food unique from other ethnic foods within Iran. Jooojay (talk) 23:04, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Support This cuisine is known internationally as "PERSIAN FOOD". The majority of books, articles and restaurants themselves also use the title "Persian Food". It is a traditional term similar to "Persian Carpet" or "Persian Cat" which is not referring to any race and should not be changed. The Encyclopedia Iranica also uses "Persian Cuisine". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malekfarugh (talk • contribs) 18:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

According to اردیبهشت's sources:

The methods of preparing milk products stem, in the main, from the traditions of pastoral and nomadic groups living both on the Iranian plateau and in Central Asia. These products, together with cereals, formed the staple food of the nomadic tribes, being much more important than meat in their diet. The making of yogurt (Persian māst, standard Turkish yoğurt, Azeri qāteq), dried yogurt (Persian kašk, Turkish qurut), and white cheese (Persian panīr, similar to the Greek feta) probably originated from Central Asia but spread in ancient times to the Iranian plateau. The raw material for these products used by Central Asian tribes has always been ewe’s milk. In Iran likewise, popular taste preferred ewe’s milk to cow’s milk and still does today. The Central Asian beverage koumiss only came into use in Iran during the Mongol and Timurid periods and thereafter went out of vogue (Doerfer, Türkische und mongolische Elemente, nos. 481, 1472, 1866).

The above source is copied and pasted from http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/spazi-cookery, the same source User talk:اردیبهشت uses, among others, to try and make Iran's culinary practices, which are almost RADICALLY DIFFERENT from other "near eastern" countries' culinary practices, close to the near east. Persian cookery is very different from that in the mid east, simply because of years of barriers that prevented much sharing with anywhere west of Iran, and even geographical barriers. Iran is, primarily, a central and south asian nation, and this user is CONSTRANTLY trying to prove his/her point by making major, vandalising changes to other articles. Here is another post from that same website, which is an accepted Iranian encyclopedia:

“Iranian cookery.” The scanty direct and indirect information on eating habits in the pre-Islamic and early Islamic periods suggests that very refined culinary traditions were maintained at royal courts and in wealty households. The ampler information on the haute cuisine of the ʿAbbasid period leaves no doubt that many practices of Sasanian royal and aristocratic cookery were taken over more or less directly. On the other hand there is little evidence of any continuous threads of development linking the elite cookery of pre-Islamic and early Islamic Iran to the ordinary cookery current in Iran today. In all probability modern Iranian cookery belongs to a line of tradition traceable to the period between the 8th/14th and 10th/16th centuries. As a result of the vast conquests of the Mongols and Tīmūr, Central Asian and Far Eastern culinary practices penetrated to the Iranian plateau and merged with regional traditions of everyday cookery rather than with pre-Mongol aristocratic forms of fine cookery.

Both are evidently techniques of Central Asian origin elaborated and diversified in Iran during the first century of Safavid rule.

"These vegetables [aforementioned] figure in Iranian dishes far less than is the case of Mediterranean cookery." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtheory1 (talk • contribs) 02:19, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

The more and more I read this article, the more I see how Iran is so closely aligned with Central Asia and is quite different from the so-called mid east. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mtheory1 (talk • contribs) 02:17, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

There seems to be an over-estimation of external influences, and emphasis in the article based on no direct references. For example, Central Asian, Russian, and Levantine influences are minimal in Persian cuisine. 71.41.122.130 (talk) 00:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Rice?

I was reading the article and came across this line:

"It is believed that rice (berenj in Persian) was brought to Iran from the Indian subcontinent in ancient times(about 400 years ago). "

I'm not an expert on Persian food (that's why I was reading the article), but are they saying Ancient Persia was only 400 years ago? Ancient India? Did they only get rice in 1612 or is this just a typo? Sheriffjt (talk) 23:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

There are a lot of errors on this page so I wouldn't be surprised if a zero was left out. For instance, there is no such thing as Nan-e Gandhi. Aspirated consonants don't even exist in Persian. They're referring to nan-e qandii. Qof and gheyn are allophones in persian and so are interchangeable in romanization, producing the spelling nan-e ghandii. Someone must've changed it thinking it was a misspelling of Gandhi, the Indian swaraji leader. Xerces1492 (talk) 20:37, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

There are sure are a lot errors, generally by way of attempting to give Iranian cuisine a type of international flavor - which is false quality that is often cast on Iran. Rice was certainly indigenous to Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, as well as surrounding regions. I don't see the need for the suggestion that it was imported from India. 73.21.249.45 (talk) 02:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

In general, there are many people here seemingly from certain Asian ethnic ethnic groups that like to be associated with people more to the west, and thus, random bogus is added on many articles. If it's sourced, no issue of course. But it's a big problem in general on Wikipedia. One of the many reasons why this place, as of how it is currently, will never be a reliable source. - LouisAragon (talk) 08:26, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

merge Mazanderani cuisine to Persian cuisine

Mazanderani cuisine is totally unreferenced, no pictures or anything to show why it is not just a subset. Previous merge discussion there was 2:1 in favor of merging.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 13:17, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. I see no compelling reasons for keeping it as a separate article. Googling the title only yeilds a handful of WP:CIRC replications. To be honest, I can't see what is salvageable for merging into this article. I'm not even convinced that the title should be kept as a redirect. At best there could be a very brief summary in the 'regional cuisine' section of this article (which is completely unreferenced), plus this section tagged for being unreferenced. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 20:25, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

OPPOSED Mazanderani cuisine should not be moved to Persian cuisine - this should have it's own article, it's a different ethnic group - the country is Iran - it has Persians as well as Mazanderani inside the country. Sadly nobody yet is editing Mazanderani cuisine or maintaining it. Jooojay (talk) 03:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

@Kintetsubuffalo, Iryna Harpy, and Jooojay:
Ethnic Persian cuisine is what this article is absolutely not about. Since the article of Mazanderani cuisine includes no sources, and seems to be simply copied from a former edition of this article, I would agree with the merge (i.e., deletion of the Mazanderani cuisine article). Then again, I wouldn't really have anything against creating a sourced and well-written article that would deal with the cuisine of Mazanderan, exclusively.
—Rye-96 (talk) 11:38, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

@Kintetsubuffalo, Iryna Harpy, and Rye-96: this article, Mazanderani cuisine was edited and currently has 16 references. Jooojay (talk) 16:20, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

@Kintetsubuffalo, Iryna Harpy, and Jooojay:
Oh! Alright then. I think we should remove the merge tag.
—Rye-96 (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Nuts?

How prominent are nuts (walnuts, pistachios, others) in Iranian cuisine? Worth mentioning in the sections on ingredients? Jd2718 (talk) 23:02, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Only if you have WP:RS noting the prominence... It may be 'true', but we're strictly WP:NOR. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:51, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I was actually looking for someone with sufficient knowledge to determine if it was worth working on. But thank you for the procedure. Jd2718 (talk) 00:22, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Spelling in Latin letters of Polo and Chelo

This article writes Polow, but the link goes to an article about pilaf and there polo is spelled without 'w'. I don't know how to transcribe persian language into latin letters, but anyway there is a tradition for writing //polo// and //chelo// in cook-books from 1950 and onwards. Examples in book "The Art of Persian Cooking" by Forough Hekmat.

Persian cuisine should have it's own article

Persians are an ethnic group, not a state. There should be a Persian cuisine article such as Kurdish cuisine, Pashtun cuisine and other articles on ethnic cuisines.--NadirAli نادر علی (talk) 23:27, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with this - Persian cuisine has it's own article and Iranian cuisine has it's own article linking to the 30+ ethnic groups/regions/religions that influence local food. As it's written now, I understand why people get confused. Jooojay (talk) 17:30, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Vandalism

Bouncing IPs - trying edit the head of the article from "Iranian cuisine" to "Persian cuisine" and not using the talk page to discuss. Future disruptive editing may require this article to have some protections. Jooojay (talk) 22:58, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

New articles needed

New Wikipedia articles needed: khorak, zereshk polo. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Deep article

I am an italian philosopher and I desire to make congratulations to the article, specially the photos showed in farsi & english. Beeing visited Iran 4 time I have to add only that in iran smart people eat like God. The only chelo kebab with grill smashed meat and a dome of rice covered with a line of yellow saffron and sliced tomatos drinking pomegranate juice freshly squized is un "incanto". Thanks Putojudio (talk) 21:16, 7 March 2021 (UTC)

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