Talk:Coggeshall

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New to do list[edit]

Industry

  • Cloth Trade
  • Tambour Lace
  • Silk Throwsting
  • Isinglass
  • Brewing
  • Seed growing

Future of page[edit]

Suggested construction of sections on:

  • Abbey - history, descriptions of layout, dissolution (Greatorex 1999)
    • In the Chronicon Anglicanum, it is written that on the 1st January 1216 Mercenaries of King John entered the abbey and stole 20 horses. This was a result of the repudiation of the Magna Carta.(p8)

**1250 the Abbot of Coggeshall was allowed by Royal Charter to hold an eight day fair commencing on the thirty first of July. 1256, Saturday Market grated as long as it didn't interfere with its neighbours. Colchester complained in 1318 that Coggeshall was a hindrance, and their complaint, being upheld, resulted in the market being moved to Thursday, where it remains to this day. (p13)

    • 1370 abbey reported to be to be in financial trouble, the King's Escheater's investigation discovered financial mismanagement by successive abbots, since the mid 1200s (p15)

**Black Death, Coggeshall did not escape the fallout and with the number of monks and conversi depleted. Revenue in Essex fell between one third to one half of pre plague rates, tenented and cultivated lands decreased. (p16) **Peasants revolt 1381, Coggeshall abbey was broken into and "goods, charters and various manuscripts were removed and probably destroyed". The sheriff of Essex and Hertfordshire, John Sewale was targeted by rioters at his Coggeshall Dwelling (now the Chapel Inn) (p17) **Long Bridge probably built in the 13th Century. **Tilkey Kiln ran till 1845(p17)

  • Dissolution
    • Abbot Love was demoted with a list of complaints raised against him in 1535, it appears that standards were dropping(p32). It was common method at the time that Abbot's unsympathetic to the will of the King were replaced with more favourable ones, in this case Abbot More was implanted by Dr. T. Leigh. Abbot Love became vicar of Witham until his death in 1559 (p41)

**Coggeshall survived the Act of Suppression in 1536 and the Abbot of St. Mary Grace's, London invested in its future (p32) **However the political situation was opposed to the monestaries and Coggeshall succumbed in 1538 on the fifth of February, handed over by Abbot More. **The monks were sent back to their families or into the community, with many becoming priests (p41) **The Abbey estate was granted to Sir Thomas Seymour until 1541 when it was split up(p43)

**John Godard, a learned Mathematician and protégé of Ralph joined the order at Coggeshall, where he wrote many treatises(p37) greatorex-


**Early names for Coggeshall include Coxall and Cockerell, Cogeshal(p41)

  • Economy - wool, cotton, silk, straw, farming, seeds, antiques
    • "switch from wool to cloth may well have started in 1436" (Paycocke's 1979)
    • up to about 1528 rough material exported to low countries and italy
    • 1577 was probably the year that coggeshall white was first produced

*Paycocke's **family first moved to the area in the 15th century **thought to have been built for John Paycocke's (d. 1505) son Thomas and daughter in law Margaret as the initials T.P and M.P. appear in the wood carvings that decorate the house. (Paycocke 1979 p4) **Last Paycocke in Coggeshall was Thomas Paycocke who died in 1580. (p5) **Paycocke's house was completed by 1505 (p6) It features intricate wood carvings and gates which some think were taken from coggeshall abbey during the dissolution of the monastaries. **1580 was sold to the Buxton family who were also clothiers from 1746 (p6)changed hands several eventually being bought byLord Noel-Buxton, a descendant of the original Buxtons, and given to the National Trust in 1924. Restoration work was carried out in the 1960's and the house is now open to the public

  • Education - church provided into government
    • Library at Coggeshall Abbey(p37)
    • There was a school at the Abbey, in contravention of Cistercian Rule, before 1464 (Greatorex 1999 p 30)
    • Sir Robert Hitcham set up schools in the 17th Century from his will, at Coggeshall, Debenham and Framlingham, Coggeshall passed into the control the of Local Authority - ref name = Coggeshallihal page 16
    • Creation of the coggeshall Museum

    • Honeywood school named after Mrs. Honeywood?
  • Governance
  • Religion - post abbey, Quakers, non conformists, Catholic Church [1]
    • John Owen and John Same, a former Vicar of Coggeshall set up the Independant church, now the Congregational Church on Queens Street. - ref name = Coggeshallihal page 27

*expansion of St. Peter's section using - [1] and any other references we can find.

Any ideas about how we can take this page forward would be greatly appreciated

Good work so far, and good ideas for new sections. I think what the article's currently missing most of all is information on modern Coggeshall. The History section obviously needs to be split up, there's stuff in there that can form the beginning of the sections on the abbey and industry. I'm away from home at the moment and don't have access to my books on Coggeshall, or Coggeshall museam's collection, but I'll help where I can. AGGoH 09:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://www.kelvedoncatholicparish.org.uk/Pages/Churches/Coggeshall%2075%20Years.html

List of sources[edit]

I have been collecting a list of all the books and articles written about Coggeshall over the years User:Pluke/sandbox#Coggeshall, please add to this if you know of anything else that exists. Pluke 22:47, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clean up[edit]

This article is in serious need of a clean up! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.69.135.182 (talk) 15:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Pleased to see you are interested in this article, any suggestions as to how I could tidy things up?Pluke (talk) 21:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Origin of name - inconsistency[edit]

The article goes through several theories about the origin of the name Coggeshall. In particular "Beaumont rejected". It being named for a person. However right after that in the history section we have an unqualified "The Manor of Coggeshall was owned by a Saxon freeman named Cogga." I haven't been able to locate a copy of the short history of Coggeshall Abbey, but I wonder how reliable it is. Perhaps it just needs a little rewriting to reconcile the statements. Humpster (talk) 06:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Beaumont's theories about the origin of the name are ahistorical junk, and I have now removed them. The town likely does take its name from a Saxon named "Cogg" or similar, but no such person is mentioned in any historical document. The article's claim that he appears in the Domesday Book is belied by Open Domesday. Zacwill (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's pleasing to see more modern scholarship in the etymology section, however, I think too much has been cut. The domesday book does name the place, the link you provide seems to have Coghessala though I don't pretend to be an expert in medieval Latin. The removal of Gelling removes what's might be meant by 'nook' and the removal of the other theories (note that three of the four are theories that Beaumont claims to reference, not his own) loses a rich history of debate on this topic - even if they are ahistorical (which seems likely) the debate has value. Additionally, we have lost all the other names under which Coggeshall, and parts of it, have been known in the past. Pluke (talk) 22:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Humphrey Tribble the reference to the Saxon freeman appears to come directly from the domesday bookz with maybe a little elaboration. This translation has the name as "cola", and free man would almost certainly imply a Saxon in those times: https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_esc=y&id=FRcTAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=coggeshall if you are near coggeshall, the library has a copy of the history of the Abbey, as does the museum. Pluke (talk) 23:02, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is value in retaining much of it in some form. Current scholarship is fine, but I'd like to know how we got there. Some of the information might be considered "folk history" which has been superseded, but it is still part of the history of Coggeshall. At the very least, it deserves a footnote.
Those ideas, though they might now be considered incorrect, were believed by some people in the past. That, is history. Humpster (talk) 05:08, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that folkloric explanations of names can be worthy of inclusion, and there have been other instances in which I have retained them. However, the material that I removed from the Coggeshall article seems less like folklore and more like the idle speculations of individual scholars. It's not clear that it was accepted or repeated by anyone other than the people who advanced it, making it unimportant in the history of the town. Zacwill (talk) 06:04, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is very little work on the history of Coggeshall. Beaumont was probably it for a significant period of time, so I don't see quoting him to be problematic. I'll try and rework the section and you can see if it works. I must have originally written it about 15 years ago! Pluke (talk) 06:27, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia has this to say about the work of Alfred John Dunkin, which you have now restored to the article. "Inane and containing little of value" would also be a good description of the etymology section as it now stands. Zacwill (talk) 15:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, thanks for the link. It's good to know who Dunkin is. Strong language for Wikipedia! Which seems to be coming directly from the 1888 biography. Not sure I agree with your description of the section though, it offers the reader an overview of previous theories which many readers local to Coggeshall might hold, with the most modern at the top. Historically, I think this is of interest. Happy to discuss further though. Pluke (talk) 17:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I like the overview of theories evaluated by Beaumont,Zacwill (talk · contribs). It's worth a few sentences to provide the historical background of research on the origin of the name.
The article now refers to Dunkin as a "largely discredited antiquarian". That is sufficient caution to help me assess the information.
The Wikipedia article about Dunkin is almost word for word what Gordon Goodwin wrote in 1888. I could find no information about Gordon Goodwin to suggest why he was so critical in the biography. I think his opinion should be removed from the Wikipedia article since it is clearly very personal.
At least the ONDB has an entry to show the importance of Dunkin; there isn't one for Gordon Goodwin. Dunkin is also present in the National Portrait Gallery. So whatever the quality of his work, he left a mark. The 2004 edition of the ONDB is kinder to Dunkin, though it still says his work is of little value except for descriptions of the contemporary scene.
Nevertheless, what we are assessing is the article about Coggeshall. I think the way Pluke (talk · contribs) has presented it works well for my needs. Humpster (talk) 10:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Dunkin's opinions about the name "Coggeshall" are a representative sample of the rest of his work, then Goodwin's assessment is very accurate. A concatenation of the Celtic words "cor" and "gafæl"? I've never read such rubbish. Zacwill (talk) 23:40, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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