Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2023 June 29

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June 29

Question on a noble title

Our article on Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa states without citation that he was a grandee of Spain. I can find similar claims elsewhere, but I haven't seen anything I'd consider a particularly reliable source, and for all I know the others might have gotten it from Wikipedia. He was a Sicilian nobleman (ultimately a prince at the time royalty was abolished in Italy), but born after the Bourbon dynasty in Sicily had given way to the House of Savoy. He was certainly descended from grandees, but would the title of "Grandee of Spain" have survived the unification of Italy? - Jmabel | Talk 00:24, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

It would presumably be a matter for Spanish law. I know the republic abolished all titles, including Grandees, in 1931, but Franco later restored them. DuncanHill (talk) 08:58, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

The title Grandee of Spain was and is hereditary. Therefore I think, the Prince of Lampedusa would have retained the title when the island was sold to the Kingdom of Naples in 1840 and when the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was dissolved in 1861, and passed it on to his heir, and so on. Otherwise, there should have been an official revocation of the title by the Spanish crown.

Definitely retained all their titles when the island was sold.

So: The ends of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies and Kingdom of Naples had no effect on Spanish titles in those regions; Italian abolition of titles (1946, I believe) had no effect on a Spanish title, and Spain's abolition of titles during the Second Republic proved temporary. Thanks! (I'd still like a decent citation for this particular title for him, but it means I shouldn't change what the article says.) - Jmabel | Talk 14:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Another Irish song question

Sorry! But know I am coming here as a second to last resort! I hope that lessons my impertinence.

If any one could find the lyrics to this song, which I believe is in Irish, or any further information about its orgins I would appreciate it! I think the name in Irish would be, Amhran Fiodoireachta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ygSyaUbvFw 2600:1700:3D74:F010:7556:50E0:287D:EC2E (talk) 00:59, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

With diacritics: Amhrán Fíodóireachta. Some of the Irish lyrics can be found here, and if you have a Spotify account (I don't), they promise access to the lyrics here.  --Lambiam 13:35, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Impressed as always! Thank you 2600:1700:3D74:F010:D84B:6E71:5994:509A (talk) 18:06, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Seeking info on Tamilian author

1) There seems to be substantial Tamil history (Chola dynasty) related literature from one S. Balasubrahmanyam. The information I am seeking is whether he was just an armature historian? or was having any professional or educational background from fields like history, archeology, museums, commerce and trade, politics, etc.?

2) Looking for additional reference for corroborating following info. If secondary scholar not available, even verifiable primary source would do.

".. King is variously described as Sengol-valavan, the king who established just rule, Ponni-nadan, the ruler of Kaveri basin.. who established the Chola tiger crest (Page 291); source= citation : last=Balasubrahmanyam |first= S ; title=Middle Chola Temples Rajaraja I to Kulottunga I (A.D. 985-1070) ; url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/Middle_Chola_Temples/dufVAAAAMAAJ ; year=1977 ; publisher=Oriental Press ; ISBN=9789060236079.

I am working on a draft about Indian sceptre. My attitude of working thoroughly is generating good number of questions and will at humanities board around the same topic for a while, as I have been doing always.

Thanks, Bookku (talk) 05:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

The publisher of the book, Oriental Press, was a publisher of academic and scholarly works based in Amsterdam, mainly publishing reprints of 19th century works. One should expect that they would not have published newer works that did not meet reasonable scholarly standards and would damage their reputation. They ceased publishing in 1982; its publications are still sold by APA (Academic Publishers Associated), also Amsterdam based, which lists this book in its catalogue of publications in print.^[1]  --Lambiam 13:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

In the contents of the Journal of Oriental Research Madras (1936), he is listed as S. R. Balasubrahmanyam, M.A., L.T. (I don't know what L.T. is; one other person in the contents is also an L.T.). This may seem a long time ago, but it agrees with the foreword to Early Chola Art (1966), where it says His intimate knowledge of these temples has been built up over a period of nearly forty years. The M.A. matches up to this mention of him as an "art historian". Douglas Barrett, Keeper of the Department of Oriental Antiquities in the British Museum, calls him "my friend" in the preface of this book, and then proceeds to criticize and disagree with him extensively, and occasionally praise him, throughout the book. He had various awards (sometimes of funding) and friends in academia and government.

The seated tiger is on the left

Are you looking for a second reference for all three of those facts? 1) That the king had the title Sengol-valavan, 2) That he also had the title Ponni-nadan (neither title is listed at Rajendra_Chola_I#Titles), and 3) That he "established the Chola tiger crest on Mount Meru"? The tiger crest is apparently the image of the tiger sitting on a throne, as seen on Chola coins. I'm unclear on what it means for this symbol to be "established on" a mountain which is itself mostly metaphorical.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

L.T. stands for Licentiate in Teaching.  --Lambiam 01:03, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Card Zero Since presently I am focused on sceptre part I would prefer to have one more confirmation on the first i.e. That the king had the title Sengol-valavan.

Lot many thanks for interesting and valuable inputs from you as well as Lambiam and Abecedare. Bookku (talk) 06:06, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

• S.R. Balasubrahmanyam appears to be affiliated with Sir Sivaswami Iyer Highschool, Thirukattupalli, at least circa 1945, and therefore wasn't necessarily a university academic. But he published scholarly articles, was cited by other scholars, and his books received academic reviews and are widely held in libraries. So not a "crank" either. Abecedare (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I found a similar text in Annual report on South-Indian Epigraphy for the year ending 31st March 1931: Nos. 231 and 232 are in Tamil verse and [...] RajéndraChola is described as Sengol-Valavan, Ponni-nádan and Pūmpugār-ttalaivaņ and is also stated to have installed the fierce tiger (-mark) on the summit of Méru. This last act may be only a generalized statement of the achievement usually attributed to the early Chéla sovereigns. The "Nos. 231 and 232" refer to a table at the beginning of this document, which gives inscriptions 231-236 as located in Agaram. So evidently this is indeed what the inscription there said (and perhaps still does).  Card Zero  (talk) 07:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Balasubrahmanyam's book, published in 1975 by Thompson Press (d) Ltd., Faridabad, Haryana, is available on the Internet Archive.^[2] Here is the full sentence together with the one preceeding it:

"From an inscription dated in the eighth regnal year of Rajendra I found on the south wall of the mandapa in front of the central shrine of the Siva temple at Agaram called presently Kailasanathar temple, we gather that the king founded the village of Vanamangai and settled in it four thousand brahmanas. The king is variously described as Sengol-valavan, the king who established just rule, Ponni-nadan, the ruler of the Kaveri basin, Pumpuhar-talaivan, the Lord of the celebrated sea-port of Pumpuhar alias Kaverip-pum-pattinam and the Supreme power who established the Chola tiger crest on Mount Meru (the Himalayas)."^[3]

In a foreword, Y. B. Chavan, then Minister of Finance of India, writes,

"[Balasubrahmanyam] is acknowledged as an outstanding living authority on the subject of South Indian monuments and art in general and of the Gholas in particular."

 --Lambiam 16:59, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I might enjoy reading a history of armatures, even by an amateur. —Tamfang (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

College admissions question.

Has there been any colleges that have gpa requirements based on your intended major? So if your gpa too low, you can't be a science major, but you can be a say social work major. Does anyone know of any colleges that have been like this? 170.76.231.162 (talk) 17:48, 29 June 2023 (UTC).

I suspect that you are American, but questions such as this need to specify the country in which these colleges are. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:11, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Most colleges and universities admit students based on a number of criteria, of which GPA is only one, but certainly there are plenty of colleges and universities where one program is more selective than another, or where GPA might even be a major factor for some programs (e.g. a music program would quite likely admit an accomplished musician with a sketchy academic record).

In the U.S., most colleges admit students on a "general" basis, and they don't have to commit to a particular major until later. However, the application process certainly allows students to target a particular department. In some cases, the latter is formal, but optional: you may be accepted to the college/university and accepted immediately into a major program of your choosing ("direct to major admittance"), or you may be accepted to the college/university, but not yet accepted as a major in a particular department. - Jmabel | Talk 21:28, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Here in Australia, I believe that it's normal for one to be admitted to a particular programme (a "course") at a university, unlike in the US system, and each programme sets its own entry requirements. To see an example, visit the course directory for Monash University at https://www.monash.edu/study/courses/find-a-course. If you click the entry for any particular course, you'll get heaps of information about it, including the entry requirements. Nyttend (talk) 02:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Also, I'm not familiar with the details of particular programmes, but at Oxford and Cambridge (Oxbridge), one is admitted to one of the constituent colleges, not to the university. Nyttend (talk) 02:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Idea that Alexander the Great was the greatest Slavic hero who ever lived?

Just something I saw on social media last year that I was thinking about now. I always thought Alexander was Greek (as far as those modern definitions applied), but I happened across some people having a massive rant/argument with some Greek guys (all in broken English) about how Alexander was actually a Slav and how the Greeks had stolen their culture and how if it had not been for the Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Nazis, Soviets and Serbs oppressing them, that Macedonia by rights would, and should be a world superpower by now and rule most of the world. I just heard something on the radio mentioning Macedonia and for some reason it reminded me of this. What is this sort of thing called? I know nationalism is an easy answer, but I was thinking more specifically (as an aside, have encountered people online who think Mongolia should reclaim the territories conquered by Genghis Khan, or that Syria should conquer the entire Middle East and large parts of Southern Europe/North Africa with Assad proclaiming himself Emperor, for the good of everyone). Iloveparrots (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

While the language spoken by the Ancient Macedonians BC is only known from fragmentary evidence, such as the Pella curse tablet, it is clear that it was a Greek dialect, quite different from any Slavic language. It is also clear that the Macedonian dynasty considered themselves Greeks; by the time of the Common Era the standard language spoken in Macedonia was basically identical to the standard language in Athens. By that time, not even Proto-Slavic, the precursor of the Slavic languages, was spoken anywhere – the language did not yet exist. Of course, Proto-Slavic had its precursors, stemming from the southern variants of the Proto-Balto-Slavic dialect continuum, but the region where this was spoken was then still far north of Macedonia; see History of the Slavic languages. The term for such zany theories, actively promoted by the Macedonian nationalist governments in 2006–2017, is "antiquization".  --Lambiam 00:40, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

From the article:

In the narrative brought forward by the VMRO-DPMNE, Alexander the Great was clearly not a Greek. According to this version of history, most of the cultural achievements which are perceived as being of Greek origin by historians and laypersons around the world are actually ethnic Macedonian achievements. Therefore, in the view of some, Hellenism’s true name would actually be Macedonianism. The Republic of North Macedonia would thus be the owner of great cultural heritage, which always had been denied by the world. And as the then Prime Minister of the Republic of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski put it, it can finally present its true history that has been silenced for so long. North Macedonia, in this view, is seen as the cradle of European civilization.

Yes, that is exactly what these guys were saying. Thanks. Iloveparrots (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The word for these sorts of things is "delusions". --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 04:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Iloveparrots -- After the whole interminable mess of internal Byzantine revolts, and wars between Avars, Byzantines, and Persians during the first quarter of the 7th century A.D., Slavic speakers occupied much of the territory of ancient Greece (including parts of the Peloponnese); the center of population of Greek speakers was actually in Anatolia for the next four centuries. But this was 900 years after Alexander. The time when Slavic speakers in the current territory of North Macedonia had the greatest power or impact in the world was during the brief West Bulgarian Empire of ca. 1000 A.D. (the periods of the First Bulgarian Empire when the capital was at Skopje, Ohrid, or Bitola). But this was 1300 years after Alexander, and they didn't call themselves Macedonians. AnonMoos (talk) 07:59, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The especially aggressive Macedonian nationalism that some groups represent, usually called 'Macedonism' (or 'Macedonianism'), is full of antiquization. Beside claiming Big Alex to be Slavic, one popular theory is to claim that the second script on the Rosetta stone – between hieroglyphs and Greek – is written in a Slavic (Macedonian) language. --T*U (talk) 11:13, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

At the time of Alexander, the various slavic peoples were still living in what is today Russia and Ukraine - and had not (yet) migrated into the Balkans (that occurred several hundred years later). So, while one can argue that the Macedonians of the Hellenistic era were not ethnically “Greek”… it is completely anachronistic to call them “Slavic”. It would be like calling Britons of the Roman era “Anglo-Saxon”. Blueboar (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Thinking of when English people say things like "when *we* fought the Romans" or "when the Romans invaded *us*"... Iloveparrots (talk) 22:12, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The English are largely descended from the people who did fight the Romans. The Anglo-Saxon-Danish admixture isn't terribly large. — kwami (talk) 22:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Getting into the end of your question about Mongolia: As a reference librarian, I get a lot of questions looking for references to support Internet nonsense. A man comes in at least once a month looking for references to support that Africans claimed the Americas long before the Native Americans showed up and pushed them out. He says that he has seen evidence on YouTube of Egyptian artifacts in the Grand Canyon and African burial sites in Manhattan. No matter how many times I explain to him that it is simply nonsense, he keeps coming back. A couple months ago, a girl came in working on her high school assignment. She was writing about all the evidence that Jewish people originally occupied all of Europe and Africa and everyone was their slaves, but the slaves revolted and the Jewish people became slaves in Egypt. Now, they have rights to all of Europe and Africa, which people hate, so that is the source of antisemitism. Again, I explained that even though she read it on the Internet, it is simply not true in any way. I've had people ask about Chinese originally occupying the Americas. I had one person who was trying to prove that all the slaves in the United States were actually Chinese, not African, and that is why Chinese were banned from coming to the United States as free people. Yesterday, a man wanted to find legal documents to show that the United States government hates Middle Eastern people and, for that reason, refused to include Middle Eastern in the official set of races for Federal forms, simply to oppress them. It is all nonsense and even the question asked above shows it. If you simplify, it claims that if nobody ever oppressed (meaning to attack, intimidate, threaten, etc...) a group of people, that group of people would be thriving today. Of course, but "what ifs" are not real. 97.82.165.112 (talk) 12:21, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Another one I just remembered. The idea that it says in Book of Exodus that Jewish slaves were being forced by the Egyptians to build the pyramids. I know it doesn't actually say that (I've read it), but it seems to be a fairly common misconception that it *does* specify that - and that therefore Egypt owes repartitions to Israel. Iloveparrots (talk) 23:34, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Irredentism and Revanchism are terms for wanting to reclaim former territory or subjects. Chauvinism for he unreasonable belief in the superiority or dominance of one's own group or people, and Jingoism for (advocating for) a belligerent and aggressive foreign policy. Expansionism for the general policy of expanding territorial control. I'm not sure what the term is for a general feeling of resentment that your country has been unfairly kept down, and that you'd be a mighty empire if it wasn't for all those people oppressing you, but I'm pretty sure there is a term for it (not least because its a common theme in fascist and fascist-like ideologies). Iapetus (talk) 13:55, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

See also Pan-nationalism.  --Lambiam 16:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

One wonders if there is any significant populated (or formerly populated) area on Earth that has not at different times been occupied/ruled by two or more different peoples and is therefore not subject to actual or possible competing claims of "rightful ownership". {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 17:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Iceland? Samoa? — kwami (talk) 21:50, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Iceland was successively independent, ruled by Norway, part of the Kalmar Union, ruled by Denmark, and then became independent once more, so multiple possible claims.

Samoa anciently had multiple competing royal lines, had two 19th-century civil wars fomented by 3 competing European powers, was partly annexed to the German Empire, and is now split between independent Samoa and the US Territory of Western Samoa. Several of those involved might (if so inclined) press 'historical' claims. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.177.243 (talk) 22:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I haven't heard of anyone who claims that Iceland doesn't belong to the Icelanders or (Western) Samoa to the Samoans, and there was no-one there prior to their arrival that was displaced or absorbed. — kwami (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Kwamikagami -- There were a few Irish monks in Iceland when the Scandinavians discovered it. AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Huh. Had no idea. — kwami (talk) 18:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

We have an article about Persecutory delusion, but not as a political philosophy. I spot a different theme, however: I see a parallel with Mussolini deciding in 1936 that (like all "pure" Italians) he was a Nordic Aryan, or Rastas somehow being Israelites (but excluding Jews from that designation). Or we could consider all the white images of Jesus. This is all a special kind of appropriating racism, where you wish to belong to an important-sounding group, or wish for an important historical figure to belong to your group, so you simply make it a fact by declaring it: but I don't know of any established name for it. Does it fall under Cultural appropriation?

Oh, Collective narcissism is relevant (at least to the part about persecution): Collective narcissism predicts conspiracy thinking about secretive malevolent actions of outgroups.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:20, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

The funny thing is, Macedonian (and Bulgarian) Slavs likely do descend largely from ancient Macedonian Greeks. It's unlikely the Slavic invasion wiped out the existing population; the predominant ancestry of the southern Slavs today is likely Greeks and other local peoples who shifted languages. It would be interesting to see what the genetics says, but I doubt there's all that much Slavic in their ancestry. Rather like the Azeris, by ancestry, are largely Turkish-speaking Armenians, the English largely Germanic-speaking Celts, and the Palestinians largely Arabic-speaking Hebrews/Samaritans. People get really touchy about this stuff, but saying the ancestry of your nation is any one thing is just fantasy, and usually doesn't correlate very well with which language you speak.

The ancient Greeks did the same thing -- they claimed their gods came from Egypt. The Greek gods (or at least many of them) had typical Indo-European roots, but Egypt was a great civilization, so that's what the Greeks claimed as their heritage. — kwami (talk) 21:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Kwamigami -- The Palestinians likely descend to some degree from many peoples of ancient times, including general Canaanites of the B.C. period, and the Aramaic-speaking Monophysite Christian peasants (often called "Syrians") who made up the majority of the area's population in 600 A.D. However, it's rather unlikely that they descend "largely" from Hebrews and Samaritans, especially considering the population disruptions following after the various Jewish revolts against the Romans. The word "largely" overstates the case. AnonMoos (talk) 18:29, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

I definitely encountered people who think that black people were the original Jews and Native Americans (I don't think it's the same guys who believe both though) and like with the other examples above, they feel hard done-by because their true history has been supressed. I don't think it was specifically the Rastas though. I did know some a few years ago (met via love of reggae, FWIW) but I never heard them talking about Jews. Anyway, the former lot likes to claim that Moses was black, Abraham was black, etc. and that the Jews are really fake Jews - in fact when Kanye West started complaining a lot about the Jews online, I thought at first that he'd probably gotten himself into that stuff. On the other hand, does anyone *today* seriously consider that Jesus was white? I'm sure that belief is out there. I once saw a painting of a Chinese Jesus too, but that might just be the "everyone used to paint Jesus as looking like the local population" thing.

There's another one I've heard about how white people, or at least the blond-haired, blue eyed ones, actually came to earth from outer space and are a different, far more advanced, highly-evolved species than the humans that evolved here - and thus (of course this was coming!) have the right to rule the world. I'm pretty sure that belief is somewhat nazi-adjacent. Iloveparrots (talk) 22:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't that make them [blue-eyed blonds] illegal aliens who should be sent back to where they came from?

I heard a talk by an Ewe guy who claimed that the Ewe were the Lost Tribe of Israel and that there were Ewe inscriptions on the pyramids. There must be a thousand lost tribes of Israel.

Have you seen old Chinese depictions of the British? They all look Chinese. Jesus would've been the same: you learn portraiture by painting people you have access to, so any fictional person you paint is going to have the same look. Nowadays we know what other peoples look like, but before photography most people didn't have that advantage. — kwami (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

See also British Israelism. Brits are a Lost Tribe too, apparently ... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I found a WP article on one of the things I was talking about by the way. Seems that the "white people from space" thing is not just "nazi-adjacent", it's actually something that (some, I guess) neo-nazis believe. See Esoteric_Nazism#Common_beliefs.

Since 1945, neo-Nazi writers have also proposed Shambhala and the star Aldebaran as the original homeland of the Aryans. The book Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival, by Hypnerotomachia Poliphili scholar Joscelyn Godwin, discusses pseudoscientific theories about surviving Nazi elements in Antarctica. Arktos is noted for its scholarly approach and examination of many sources currently unavailable elsewhere in English-language translations. Godwin and other authors such as Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke have discussed the connections between Esoteric Nazism and Vril energy, the hidden Shambhala and Agartha civilizations, and underground UFO bases, as well as Hitler's and the SS's supposed survival in underground Antarctic bases in New Swabia, or in alliance with Hyperboreans from the subterranean world.

Iloveparrots (talk) 23:39, 30 June 2023 (UTC)