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April 2

Archive of Preservation Magazine

Does anyone know where I might find an online archive of Preservation Magazine? I'm trying to verify a cite from the August 2004 issue where the ref has a dead archive link and there's no alternatives. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 05:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Have you tried contacting them? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:04, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

That's what I'd do if nobody here knows offhand. :) Seriously, I wouldn't expect them to quickly get back to me on such a question. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 07:13, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Then you'd best get right on it! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:40, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

They don't have them. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: The irony of this is striking. KConWiki (talk) 03:34, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I could already see before I asked they didn't have the past issues on their site, so it was not surprising that asking them turned out to bear no fruit. Thanks for the wild goose chase, I guess? :) Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 04:53, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Preservation Magazine preserves all that does not preserve itself. Does Preservation Magazine then preserve itself? GalacticShoe (talk) 07:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Recent issues are on their website here. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 14:45, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

They don't have issues going back that far. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:17, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Archive.org is your friend! <https://archive.org/search?query=title%3A%28preservation%20magazine%29> DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 16:59, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Not in this case. Already tried. My search and your search doesn't turn it up. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 17:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

For posterity's sake, the National Trust for Historic Preservation doesn't keep back issues online before 2015 (roughly 9 years back), and they have indicated there's no third-party location for such. Of course, if anyone ever can identify a location for this material, please let me know, as I would like to verify a citation. There's no WP:DEADLINE so really, anytime is fine. If I remember, I will try to search on a trip to an actual library, but I won't make the trip for a single citation. Thanks everyone for trying. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 19:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

@StefenTower: Try WP:RX. Another editor may have access to the issue you are looking for. RudolfRed (talk) 04:14, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I had no idea we had anything like that on the Wikipedia. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 04:39, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

What's the closest thing to an extant high seas road, pier or railroad?

Maybe the Chunnel? If the Dover Strait was a little wider the middle would be outside the 12 mile limit. Could countries extend their territory just by building a really long bridge, tunnel or pier with the border in the middle though presumably that'd be only for the actual structure they couldn't claim the air, earth or water below, above or to the side that way? Or would the structure be international waters in the middle but that would make carjacking piracy triable in admiralty courts? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:56, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

A bridge, itself, is a structure. Structures are not sovereign territory. For example, an oil rig in the ocean does not extend sovereign territory. Normally, the exclusive economic zone is considered to be 200 miles from land. So, you would, in theory, need to extend a bridge more than 200 miles to claim an area outsize the existing EEZ. That is a good four times the length of existing long sea bridges. Related, you will find attempts of people finding a structure in the sea, like an abandoned oil rig, and trying to claim it as sovereign territory. That has not worked. So, if a country were to take some structure out in the ocean and claim it is part of their sovereign territory, giving them 200 miles of EEZ around it, it would likely be refuted by other countries. Further related, what if you build land far out into your EEZ or even beyond? As an example, China has been doing that. There are disputes that the islands they are creating are not official and should not be considered sovereign land with a 200 mile EEZ. Why? That overlaps neighboring countries. As you dig into this, you find that silly arguments between countries are really about owning the ocean, which can be drilled for oil or other valuables and which can be used as a shipping corridor. 12.116.29.106 (talk) 15:57, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

See Nine-dash line for what 12.116.29.106 is referring to. The prevailing version of international law (see United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea) is that "rocks which cannot sustain human habitation or economic life of their own shall have no exclusive economic zone or continental shelf" (though they can have a standard territorial sea of 12 nautical miles). Artificially expanding the land area of a "rock" and then using the result to claim a 200-mile EEZ would be extremely controversial at best; an international tribunal did not look favorably on similar Chinese activities as part of its ruling in the South China Sea Arbitration. AnonMoos (talk) 20:18, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

How small can cause an EEZ line most nations recognize? Would U Thant Island count if it wasn't in internal waters or enlarged in the future? North Brother Island which confined many contagious people, Typhoid Mary for decades? Ellis Island which has a pretty big building and a bridge to Jersey City? What counts as human habitation? A naked survivalist would have to be able to live indefinitely in complete autarky if he arrived the right season or almost everything has to be imported for even one human to live even freshwater, and poop exported, all at great cost? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Ellis Island is in United States internal waters, so an EEZ is irrelevant. Several islands in the South China Sea that might be considered rocks under traditional legal interpretations now have a permanent military or coast guard presence, as do the Liancourt Rocks... AnonMoos (talk) 02:40, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

If God put it 1 mile off Cape Hatteras, Cape Agulhas or Cape Horn it would affect the EEZ edge location if it was adjudged big enough right? Most of Ellis Island is landfill too, as is Nut Island and U Thant Island. Also if another Surtsey formed but in water no one claimed EEZ or otherwise could it become a relatively lawless land in no country? If more than the population of the lowest full member moves in would the UN make them a full member if they wanted? Could the first country that settles it claim it? Could militaries fight for the right to own it and colonize with assault rifles, grenades etc without annoying inviolability of a country sticklers? What if it was a large artificial dump of soil? If a billionaire can dump enough soil to build on can he make his own absolute monarchy or country-less island of blackjack and (non-pirate non-slave) hookers? Not what I'd spend it on but this would appeal some if they had $100 billion. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:36, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Expanding an island one mile off the coast is not really the issue, since that would expand the territorial waters or EEZ by a small fractional amount. Expanding a rock not near any coast, putting a military presence on it, and then drawing a 200-mile EEZ circle around it is the real point of contention. Gambling ships stationed outside national waters were popular during the 1930s, but don't really exist near the U.S. now. You're missing the element of Libertarian politics; for at least 50 years some Libertarians have dreamed of setting up a laissez-faire paradise; one effort was the Minerva Reefs (see Republic of Minerva). These days the Libertarians mostly seem to be into "seasteading"... AnonMoos (talk) 09:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay apparently the 13th mile is not the high seas and it seems like immigration and other customs laws can be enforced till the 24th mile it's not just for arresting people that cross the line then cross back before they can't be touched. It seems like a yacht registered in one of those flags of convenience would be allowed to unobtrusively hang out or watch an eclipse in mile 24 to 200 without polluting, interfering with radio reception or licensing in the country and not be considered entering the country for customs purposes but the article isn't clear. But they couldn't extract like fishing, or drilling for oil. And a few high seas crimes are arrestable by anyone like piracy and slaving, while high seas murder would be arrestable by the nominal flag state and possibly also the countries of ship, victim or murderer? If you look on Open Street Map the line where the country and subnational state ends is marked though Wikipedia's article seems to give full immigration powers till 24 nautical miles. The article also mentions a right of innocent passage (a ship shortening an A to B up to as much as they can without running aground or touching baseline, without spending excessive time in country). Which seems to contradict this being part of the country for customs purposes. Anyway if a country built a 24.01 nautical mile pier or a 48.01 nautical mile bridge could anyone just go to the sidewalk of the 0.01 miles without crossing the inner EEZ border and hang out? But no fishing. And if someone gets out of their car in the middle and robs another car would they have to be tried for piracy in maritime court? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

As far as I can tell the longest span over open ocean is the Donghai Bridge in Shanghai, about 30 km. But I don't know how interesting the sea gets under these bridges such that you could it the "high seas". But for example, the Seven Mile Bridge in southern Florida USA has comparatively shorter open-water spans, but it is designed to withstand hurricanes on the ocean. Of course neither gets into international waters, even if you had a 12-mile limit. (I imagine a big part of the trick to do that in future would be for countries on either end to agree to build a connecting bridge in the first place, absent some open borders treaty as the EU has.) SamuelRiv (talk) 20:43, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Not really the same, but the 12-mile Crimean Bridge is intended to cement the Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. Alansplodge (talk) 12:49, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

April 3

Martin Luther King Jr. quote and the Birmingham jail

Resolved

I'm trying to compose a synopsis for the film article God & Country, but as luck would have it, I keep getting hung up by the very first scene. The film opens with William Barber II giving a voice over as a small town with churches is shown. The problem is that I can't seem to track down what Barber is talking about. I mistakenly assumed Barber was referring to the famous "Letter from Birmingham Jail", but there's nothing really in that letter that refers to this quote, so Barber must be referring to something else, but what it is I cannot say. Here's the quote: "When he was in the Birmingham jail, Dr. King said, 'When I look at all the injustices in the world and I drive past churches and I see these high steeples, I ask myself, What kind of people worship there? What do they care about? Are they at work in the world for those things which look like love and look like justice and look like truth? What are they?'" Any ideas what Barber is referring to here? I think there's a possibility that Barber is metaphorically summarizing the famous Letter in a poetic manner, and that makes a certain kind of sense, but it also strikes me as slightly odd and unusual to my ear. Surely, Barber must be referring to something else? Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Update: It looks like there are many different edited versions of the letter, which is something I wasn't aware of at all. Apparently, some of the most popular versions online do not include this full quote, which I have found in other, more original versions. This is a bit troubling, as most people aren't actually reading what MLK wrote and intended to be read. Viriditas (talk) 19:54, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how, since MLK's quotations are all around us and his legacy has been so well-managed in that regard. After all, to directly quote him 100% absolutely verbatim, he told people "I was a drum major for justice, peace and righteousness." SamuelRiv (talk) 05:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I was honestly quite surprised to discover that the majority of the copies of the "Letter from Birmingham Jail" online are not the original. Most of the top links don't have the quote. This is pretty crazy, to be honest. I can't say that I've ever run into this kind of thing before. Viriditas (talk) 07:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

For those unfamiliar with this, here is the text in full (linked in our article):

I have traveled the length and breadth of Alabama, Mississippi and all the other southern states. On sweltering summer days and crisp autumn mornings I have looked at the South's beautiful churches with their lofty spires pointing heavenward. I have beheld the impressive outlines of her massive religious education buildings. Over and over I have found myself asking: "What kind of people worship here? Who is their God? Where were their voices when the lips of Governor Barnett dripped with words of interposition and nullification? Where were they when Governor Wallace gave a clarion call for defiance and hatred? Where were their voices of support when bruised and weary Negro men and women decided to rise from the dark dungeons of complacency to the bright hills of creative protest?"

Alansplodge (talk) 10:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Zero-elasticity good

What could a zero-elasticity good be classified as? This image about the types of goods says that a good is normal if its elasticity is positive and inferior if its elasticity is negative. In which class of goods would a good with elasticity 0 belong? Alfa-ketosav (talk) 19:48, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It appears you are referring to "elasticity of demand" and not physical elasticity. Zero elasticity of demand is commonly referred to as perfectly inelastic demand, popular enough that PED is commonly used. It means that the quantity of the goods does not change with the price. Examples are commonly very high-end goods. For example, the quantity of gold available is not based on the price of gold. However much may be mined is how much is mined. If the price drops, mining continues. If the price increases, mining continues. Another example is high-end luxury cars. If a luxury car maker plans to produce 100 cars a year, the maker produces 100 cars a year. It is as simple as that. It doesn't increase or decrease production based on the current selling price of the cars. It is almost like you are claiming a complete disconnect between the producers of the goods and the consumers. The producers produce at a specific rate that they want to produce at. Consumers consume based on a demand that has nothing to do with quantity. 75.136.148.8 (talk) 17:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You're talking about price elasticity of demand, but Alfa-Ketosav is talking about income elasticity of demand. --Trovatore (talk) 18:00, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I think these examples are inaccurate. Also, OP was asking about income elasticity of demand on the chart, not price elasticity of demand. Regardless Luxury goods in particular have high positive income elasticity or paradoxically negative price elasticity of demand. Mining, even for gold, certainly does depend on the price of gold, and even in a fixed gold standard gold mining is still subject to market pressure. (Just as an exercise, the price of gold may always be high, but if it suddenly doubles, then the incentive increases to invest in new gold mines or reopen closed ones.)

Goods that have virtually 0 price elasticity of demand are those where the quantity demanded does not change with a good's price increase or decrease (for a significant range). Similarly, goods with 0 income elasticity of demand are those where the quantity demanded does not change with consumer income increase or decrease (for a significant range). A necessity good has <1 income elasticity of demand (but there's probably only a few such goods that have nearly 0 price elasticity just because of how consumers make decisions) -- you can see examples in that short article, such as lifesaving or addictive fixed-dose drugs [edit: the article is wrong; all cigarette & street drug studies I've seen show elasticity ~1]. (Of course, once subsidies and insurance comes into play, something like a necessity lifesaving once-daily drug may always be covered regardless of what happens at the margins.) In case you were wondering, the theoretical market with 0 price elasticity of demand (not income elasticity) is called perfect competition, and a often-cited example is basic agricultural products. SamuelRiv (talk) 18:28, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I do refer to elasticity of demand. Thanks for the information. Alfa-ketosav (talk) 07:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Imagine one needed to pay for the air one breathes. Air is an absolutely essential good, so whether the price goes up or one's income goes down, one cannot economize by breathing less. And when the price goes down or one's income goes up, one wouldn't start breathing more. This is a hypothetical scenario, but life-saving drugs such as insulin and anti-cancer medication may be in this category.  --Lambiam 18:10, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the examples too. Alfa-ketosav (talk) 07:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

April 4

Old tale set in Memphis

Hello, I remember from my childhood an old tale set in Memphis, U.S., about the bullying of a kid who finally manage to react. I can't remember the author or the exact title. Could you please help me? Thanks.-- Carnby (talk) 05:39, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Loukoumi and the Schoolyard Bully by Nick Katsoris (Dream Day Press, 2013) might fit, but is perhaps too recent (we don't know when your childhood was); Memphis by Tara M. Stringfellow (Dial Press, 2022) will certainly be.

How about The Land by Mildred D. Taylor (Scholastic, 2001), or another in her 6-book 'Logan Family' series? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 11:36, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Right, I was writing about a book published in the '80s.-- Carnby (talk) 11:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The Logan Family series began with Song of the Trees published in 1975, followed by Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry in 1976, Let the Circle Be Unbroken in 1981, The Gold Cadillac in 1987, and The Road To Memphis in 1992: The Land was a late continuation. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 23:31, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Public intoxication in fin-de-siècle France and England (1890s)

I just ran across an interesting passage in Toulouse-Lautrec and the Fin-de-Siécle by biographer and art historian David Sweetman. He writes that in the late 1890s the treatment of people who were intoxicated in public in France and England was vastly different, with London police far more violent towards the public. Are there any particular historical reasons for this difference in law enforcement behavior? Viriditas (talk) 20:01, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Concern over public drunkenness has deep roots in England, perhaps the difference with France being down to Protestant values, which saw it as being directly linked to sin, disorder and crime (and still does to an extent). See:

Drunkenness and Responsibility for Crime in the Eighteenth Century (you can access the whole article through the Wikipedia Library).

You may be interested in this 19th century village lockup in Hertfordshire which has a sign saying "BE SOBER" over the barred window. Alansplodge (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I will read up on this. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Drinking in Victorian and Edwardian Britain: Beyond the Spectre of the Drunkard ("Conclusions" chapter) makes interesting reading. The whole book is online. See also Punishment or treatment? Inebriety, drink, and drugs, 1860–2004 (short pdf), Temperance movement in the United Kingdom, Intoxication and Criminal Responsibility in England, 1819-1920 - there's lots on the subject. Because of the poor quality of drinking water in Britain, small beer was a valid way of slaking your thirst since the Middle Ages: the contrast with the terrors of gin ("mother's ruin") were portrayed by William Hogarth in Beer Street and Gin Lane. In Scotland Beer in Scotland#Shilling categories are still used. On the other side of the channel, Intoxication and the French Revolution shows that in France, with its vast domestic output of wine and spirits, drinking alcohol was much more acceptable than in Britain, and much cheaper as well. MinorProphet (talk) 22:09, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

This makes a lot of sense, actually. Are you aware that the same claim was made about early American colonists, and that IIRC, this is what gave rise to the temperance movement in the US? There was a book that came out a decade or so ago on this, but I can't find it for the life of me. It argued that in the early days of the US, virtually every man, woman, and even children, were drunk 24/7 because there was poor access to fresh water. My understanding is that this isn't accepted and is considered somewhat fringe, but I don't know enough about the topic to comment with any certainty. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The Met were notorious for stealing pocket watches from drunks. DuncanHill (talk) 08:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I will read this. Viriditas (talk) 10:20, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Do Jews follow other religions?

For context: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Religions of various Jewish communities

I want to ask really really age old question, do Jews follow other religions like Christianity and Islam too? SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 22:42, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Define "follow." In brief, one only "follows" (believes in) one religion at a time, though there certainly can be exceptions. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 23:05, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay. Are there instances where there are Jews who don’t traditionally follow Judaism? SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 23:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Jews who have converted to Christianity or Islam are not recognized as Jews by the Supreme Court of Israel (for the purpose of Aliyah). See https://www.haaretz.com/2006-06-09/ty-article/aliyah-with-a-cat-a-dog-and-jesus/0000017f-dbcf-db5a-a57f-dbef42430000 Losing faith in Judaism is okay, converting to another religion isn't. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:19, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

This is discussed at our article on Who is a Jew? Viriditas (talk) 23:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

[Edit Conflicts] There are many people who are ethnically Jewish and even also culturally Jewish who (a) don't follow Judaism as a religion (they may be atheists; Isaac Asimov is one example I know of, agnostics, or completely indifferent to religion); or (b) actively follow another religion. Many Jews in Europe converted to Christianity in former centuries (sometimes under duress) and their descendents remained so, see for example Benjamin Disraeli and Felix Mendelssohn. In the present day I personally know of Jews who became Scientologists, and I'm sure there must be some who have adopted Buddhism, Wicca or various other belief systems or paths.

In asking such questions, you need to be clear about the differences between religious belief, cultural heritage and ethnic descent – "Jews/Jewish" can refer to any one or any combination of the three. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 23:22, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there are lots of Buddhists from Jewish families. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:17, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

See also Jews for Jesus and Converso. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Jews for Jesus is a Christian group despite its deliberately misleading name. Kazamzam (talk) 22:30, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The founder of the group came from the Hebrew Christian movement, which consisted of Jews who converted to Christianity.  --Lambiam 13:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

People are often confused because Judaism is *both* a religion and an ethnicity. You can convert to being Jewish. You can be born Jewish. You can be Jewish by birth, and follow whatever religion you choose (or none), but your ethnicity hasn't changed. David Baddiel on Twitter (and in his book Jews Don't Count) will often mention that he is a Jewish atheist. He argues, correctly, that antisemitism is not religious intolerance, for example in the two minute video here.

On top of that messiness, you have things like those that Alan Splodge mentioned, where Jews adopt another religion or pretend to for self-preservation during oppression. Whether those people are to be considered religiously Jewish or not, depends entirely on viewpoint, but ethnically it's unambiguous that nothing changed.

Finally, there's an additional messiness, which is that the ethnic element also has a religious veneer. In the eyes of traditional Judaism, either a Jewish mother or conversion is required for someone to be 'Jewish', whereas many less traditional Jews accept patrilineal descent too. If you want to try to be scientific about ethnicity, it's rather hard, because it's a tough concept to be scientific about. You can see just how confusing this can be when considering Lenny Kravitz (patrilineal Jewish descent), and his ex Lisa Bonet (matrilineal), and their daughter Zoë Kravitz. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 08:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Genocide Convention by Law - How to defend the Ukraïne?

Which actions would fulfill the international Genocide Convention of the UN for the defense of the victim Ukraïne? --176.4.140.126 (talk) 23:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

The Convention delegates the provision of effective penalties for persons guilty of genocide to the Contracting Parties – which will not be very effective for holding the guilty president of a Contracting Party to account, unless they are in the custody of another Contracting Party. The "competent organs" of the United Nations may decide to take such action under the Charter of the United Nations as they consider appropriate, and I assume the question is what action these organs could theoretically take. Theoretically, the UN Security Council could order Russia to lay down arms, but we know this is not going to happen. Russia cannot veto decisions by the UN General Assembly, so they could pass a similar resolution to Resolution 47/121 passed in response to the genocide in Bosnia and demand that the Russian forces immediately cease their aggressive acts and withdraw all elements of the Russian army and affiliated forces from Ukrainian territory as internationally recognized until the 2014 Russian annexation of Crimea.

The UN Charter does not have any provisions for intervening, other than by "peaceful means", in a conflict between states, while it does also not explicitly exclude such intervention. However, I see no plausible mechanism for organizing an effective intervention. After the disaster of MINUSTAH and the ineffectiveness of its successor, MINUJUSTH, it is not clear that any attempts at intervention will improve the situation.  --Lambiam 13:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, - sry for nebulous wording - that was the question, "action to be taken".

that was the question, "action to be taken".

Isn't it now so, that this Convention against Genocide was conceived after WWII in order and with the intention to prevent what happened to ever happen again, regardless of any other secondary issues that there might then possibly be ( of political, economic, alliance's nature )?

Seen that "an international treaty that criminalizes genocide and obligates state parties to pursue the enforcement of its prohibition., and "[...] resolution by the General Assembly that [...] and called for the creation of a binding treaty to prevent and punish its perpetration.", and "binding on all nations whether or not they are parties." (e.g. NATO or not, UN member or not), and "The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has likewise ruled that the principles underlying the Convention represent a peremptory norm against genocide that no government can derogate." ( and not even the UN Charta can derogate, I wonder, thus mere self-defence and emergency relief have absolute priority even before the slow 'bureaucratic' procedure of ICJ ? )

are very strong statements with little room for compromise?! --‘176.2.138.199 (talk) 14:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem is to define an action that is at the same time feasible, effective, and not ethically wrong. If you can think of one, you should let the world know.  --Lambiam 17:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, a wealth of options: provide the Ukraïne with defense weapons (patriot air defense), then artillery (MARS II), mortars, amunition, chars, tanks (leo 2a7, abrams, ceasars), jets, ... all that's [| already been provided], but much and many more, not just the crop & crap. There's tens and hundreds times those weapons in Europe and all over the world. So that the Ukraïne not only not gets short of the most necessary, but indeed gets enabled to fight back and free their stolen territory. ----+-02:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)~ 176.2.128.212 (talk) 02:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC) [edit':] ... and its people (being oppressed and tortured), thousands of hijacked kids & youngsters, soldiers and citizens in captivity. --_14:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)~

Note that the Russian Federation has only been accused (by Ukraine) of genocide. However horrible the situation on the ground may be, and however unjustifiable the attacks on civilian targets may be, this appears, on the face of it, war business "as usual". One measure of prevention that has been advocated is as simple (and perhaps as ineffective) as naming and shaming,^[1] yet the Western powers have thus far refrained from labeling the "special military operation" as being genocidal.  --Lambiam 03:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

>>only accused, not labeled as genocide<<. High time long missed to do so!? - I'm making this a query see below, "Proofs for russian genocide...", April 7 --_14:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)~ 176.5.15.133 (talk) 14:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

April 6

Lead in Judea during Roman period

How often was lead used in aqueducts and water pipes in Judea during the Roman period? I ask because I saw a study from SCIRP saying they analyzed lead samples from Roman period water installations and compared it to ossuaries from the the Talpiot tomb. Problem is I don't think lead piping would have been used generally.Semoniole (talk) 20:22, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Not in rural areas, but probably more so in urban ones, particularly buildings and settlements recently built or rebuilt in the Roman period, such as Sepphoris (you will doubtless appreciate the possible connection).

Can you give a link to the report? I would be interested in reading it. That said, one must be wary of papers from SCIRP. {The poster formerly known as 87.812.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 20:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

https://jamestabor.com/new-evidence-on-the-james-ossuary-and-its-probable-connection-to-the-talpiot-jesus-tomb/ I am unable to link to it directly but you can link to to it through there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Semoniole (talk • contribs) 20:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I'm already familiar with Prof. Tabor, and knew that the James ossuary had been shown by soil analysis to be from the Tapriot Tomb, but not the details of the analysis. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.130.213 (talk) 01:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The paper, "The Geochemistry of Intrusive Sediment Sampled from the 1^st Century CE Inscribed Ossuaries of James and the Talpiot Tomb, Jerusalem",^[2] mentions one possible source: "organic lead absorbed by the system ingested as lead acetate with wine". Our article Lead(II) acetate describes the historical production by the Romans of a sweetener for wines and foods boiled in lead pots and likely contaminated with lead acetate. [I cannot link directly to the paper because the publisher of the journal, Scientific Research Publishing, has been blacklisted by MediaWiki.]  --Lambiam 03:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

April 7

Proofs for russian genocide on Ukraïne (its people, children, culture, religion, identity as a people, ...)?

... according to the Genocide_Convention ( and most likely (obviously?) also to the [| UN Charta] ) --_14:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)~ 176.5.15.133 (talk) 14:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

The UN Charter does not contain any reference to genocide. As defined in Article 1 of the Genocide Convention, for acts to be considered genocide requires that they are committed with the intent of destroying (in whole or in part) a group – in this case the Ukrainian people. Russia (Putin) will argue that this is not their intent; they merely want to reclaim territory that in the natural order of things belongs to Russia. The fascist government in Kiev stands in the way of a peaceful resolution, so a special military operation is needed to restore the natural order, which, unfortunately, inflicts some collateral damage. You may think of this argument what you want, but I don't see clear signs that Putin not only wants to annex the parts of Ukraine he has not already annexed, but moreover seeks to destroy the Ukrainians themselves.  --Lambiam 17:16, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

For an excellent lecture by prof. Timothy Snyder, proving that what the Russians do in Ukraine is genocide, see: 2022 Elie Wiesel Memorial Lecture with Timothy Snyder. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:58, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, the International Criminal Court has issued an arrest warrant against Mr Putin, de facto leader of the Russian Federation, for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. I doubt it hits anything other than Mr Putin's ego. If there's a regime change in Russia resulting from Putin's death of natural causes, he won't be extradited; if the regime change happens before and Putin dies of unnatural causes resulting from the regime change, he won't be extradited either. The only way to get him in The Hague is to have him survive a regime change. Chances are, however, that Maria Lvova-Belova, wanted on the same charges and being 32 years younger than Vladimir Putin, will survive that regime change, giving her more reason for concern. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:10, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

The ICC warrant charges them with a war crime, but not with genocide. — Kpalion^(talk) 11:50, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Isn't the Genocide Convention a standalone treaty that doesn't even need the ICC? Just facts & action. Seen, not even "imminent danger" but in fact crimes going on day by day, dead by dead, victim by victim.

How can bombing whole cities down to even earth not be against all laws, not be genocide.

How can deporting (lied 'evacuating') kids and youngsters deep into Russia - while at the same time tourists with children are on holidays on Crimea - not be genocide.

How can 'russification' of scholars in the occupied terrotories not be genocide.

How can depriving Ukrainian diabetes patients in the occupied regions of their insuline not be genocide.

__176.2.71.188 (talk) 00:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Genocide has a strict legal definition in international law and several conditions must be met to classify a crime, no matter how heinous, as genocide. However, I'm not saying that what the Russians are doing in occupied Ukraine is not genocide. Prof. Snyder, whose lecture I linked to above, shows how every single legal condition is met in this case, even though meeting only one of them would be sufficient to charge Putin with committing genocide. And yet genocide is not what the ICC charged him with in their warrant. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:46, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

He talks a lot about historic parallels, about p°°°n's ideology. He states how and where and when and by what genocide (not only) in the Ukraïne meets criteria to label it as such.

Almost socio-philosophical lectures.

But what I'm asking for here is actually undeniable hard proofs, facts. Statements by victims, interviews with them on video, written and signed statements of victims, photos, satellite photos, statements at court on behalf of war crimes but not yet linked to a genocide accusation, war material, weapons (that <<cause unnecessary harm>>), chemical weapons, spread over the Ukraïne. You know. Real actual proofs. Of the kind that you can slam on the judge's desk. 176.3.86.229 (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

If that existed, it's already in the hands of people who can do something with it. --Golbez (talk) 15:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

...and name the genocide a "genocide".

But they don't.

While it's high time they did.

Seen that there's proofs.

176.2.133.76 (talk) 01:17, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but we can't do that, and I'm assuming neither can you, so this seems to be purely an exercise for fun. --Golbez (talk) 15:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes, we can. Wikipedia can't prosecute anyone, but it can inform the world about an ongoing genocide, as long as there are reliable sources to back it up. I have provided some of these sources here. — Kpalion^(talk) 07:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

(and then also, when searching for distinct information, a video is only third choice as you need to skip and cant do textsearch and cant crossread it) 176.3.86.229 (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The Raphael Lemkin Center for Documenting Russian Crimes in Ukraine, established by the Pilecki Institute in Poland, has a website you may want to visit, but it seems that the testimonies collected by the Center are not available offline and can only be accessed in the reading rooms of the Library of the Pilecki Institute in Warsaw and Berlin. — Kpalion^(talk) 16:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

French Alsace, 1914-1918

Following the Battle of the Frontiers, France controlled a small section of Alsace throughout the First World War, the only part of Germany proper (versus colonies, e.g. Togoland) consistently held by the Allies. How were ordinary civilian affairs handled in this region during this period? Given the degree of French irredentism since 1871, I'm guessing it wasn't treated as conquered territory or annexed to adjoining French communes/departments (this would deny the rightfulness of its being part of France), but it seems very inconvenient to set up up new communes and a new department in a tiny war zone. I expect there was some sort of martial law in the region (just as I expect there was behind the rest of the French lines), but I can't imagine the French army wanting to oversee daily affairs like land transfers, wedding registrations, and street maintenance. Nyttend (talk) 22:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Looking at de.wiki, it states that de:Montreux-Vieux was occupied by French troops in 1914 and annexed to France (along with the rest of Alsace) in 1919. So presumably France would have treated this areas as occupied German territory during the course of the war. Occupation regimes in WWI is a super-fascinating topic in itself, although it mainly happened on the eastern front.

Here we get a bit of description of what occurred with the onset of French occupation. Almost immediately after the occupation began the French police installed themselves at the building of the German commissariat in Montreux-Vieux. --Soman (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Here (p. 37) there is detail on postal service in the 'liberated territories' during WWI. I only get snippet view, but headline of the chapter is "Military Post in service for civilians". The snippet indicates that from early 1915 the management of postal offices was removed from the municipalities and taken over by their Payeurs (which would have been an army official). Under this new regime six postal bureaus were set up between February 1915 and December 1916, serving a total of 25 communes. In 1917 the management of 'this postal service' was taken over by a centralized organization under the Ministry of War. Presumably the payeurs would have other functions visavi the local communities in the 25 communes apart from postal services. --Soman (talk) 12:15, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Soman, thank you. When you talk about the police, do you mean the national police, or something local? (I'm unable to read your citations, being unfamiliar with French.) I see from Law enforcement in France that some local policing exists, but it's is mostly a national matter — no surprise, this being highly centralised France. I'm particularly interested in local government, more than national matters like postal services and policing. Would the payeurs have overseen purely local affairs too? Nyttend (talk) 22:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Educational administration comes to mind (four long years), for a lot about it you may want to access Stephen L. Harp's 0i4omclCFyrIJQfLfuNaX Primary Schooling as Nation Building in Alsace and Lorraine, 1850–1940 (Cornell Press). From French sources, more generally the administration was military administration in a context of a will to seducing the Alsatians under the République contraried by some pro-German latent insurgency. Two names that are put forward as administrators are artillery captain Laurent-Atthalin and senior State official, currently captain Henry Poulet ( also count about 20 other senior officers more or less directly involved, numerous Commissions, discussions and diplomatic consultancies as well ). A number of Army lieutenants are in charge of all aspects that are to be organized, controlled and supervised, roads, forests, services. Civil servants are mostly kept in their offices except those suspected of the wrong loyalties, in which case they are to be led among the 8000 to 10000 foreign citizens placed into internment camps. In July 1917 a dedicated Military Mission (MMA) was set up, first under a secretary for general Administration, then the War Secretary, finally more directly under the Government. This is documented as an unconventional pattern intended to prepare an expected post-war integration of the whole Alsace-Lorraine territory back into the French nation. Post office "payeurs" would perhaps be tasked with relationship with troops, civil postal service stops at the so-called "border stations", inside of military controlled territory [[3]] civilian postal life is not distinguishable from the military. Payeurs would sometimes respond to inquiries by families regarding some MIA (17 Avril 1915), a reminder, also of their pivotal role in matter of Intelligence. Besides the circumstances, a cordial collaboration between local industrials and the administration is highlighted in sources, this is concretely illustrated by exchange bonds issued in 1914 such as [4], [5]. As to visualize what was life like, as it would have been seen by a free-lance reporter in 1915 ( reporters were not allowed in the area ), "ambulances" or "mobile hospitals" are the lead to follow as there are really plenty of them Letter S. There was one established at Saint-Amarin with a number of nurses and ambulances, as often known as under the patronage of a Loys Marquise. Links, [6][7][8][9]. Note that an anecdote from a local lady who was 13 years old in 1914 already describes the town mayor first meeting the French military officials, his wearing a red cross armband, eager to cooperate. --Askedonty (talk) 22:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

April 8

Was there an Ottomanism-like mindset within the Austro-Hungarian Empire?

Fodej (talk) 03:52, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Almost certainly not. Which historical period are you thinking of? What reasons do you have for thinking this? The Muslim Ottoman Empire had extended its territorial gains north-westwards resulting in the Siege of Vienna (1529), and the Battle of Vienna in 1683 during the Ottoman–Habsburg wars. The Ottomans would have been viewed as "the enemy" by the Christian Holy Roman Empire and the Hapsburgs for centuries. On the other hand, 18th-century European classical composers were attracted to Turkish music#Turkish influence on Western classical music or Turkish music (style), but I don't think it refelected any underlying political aims. See also Ottoman Hungary. The newly unified German Empire after 1870, on the other hand, was happy to provide military aid to the Ottoman Army and Navy in the build-up to World War I, see German–Ottoman alliance. The loss of Ottoman-occupied territories after the First Balkan War would probably have been seen as a positive thing by the Austro-Hungarians. MinorProphet (talk) 13:32, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

In his Doctor Eszterhazy stories, Avram Davidson re-imagined the Austro-Hungarian empire as the "Triune Monarchy of Scythia-Pannonia-Transbalkania", whose emperor has Christian monarchical titles in two of his realms, and a Muslim monarchical title in the third, but I'm not too sure how that would have worked in reality... AnonMoos (talk) 20:01, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

My wording seems to have led to a misunderstanding. I was referring to whether or not there was a mindset within the Austro-Hungarian Empire that wanted to build a national identity as an Austro-Hungarian citizen, as was the case with Ottomanism. Fodej (talk) 04:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for making your question clearer. Again, almost certainly not. I suspect that the only people interested what you mght call 'Austro-Hungarianism' (like Ottomanism) were the ruling classes. I'm fairly sure that the inhabitants of the manifold consituent parts of the Austro-Hungarian Empire were much more aware of their own local identity than wanting to be subjects of a tottering empre subject to the whims of one man. I imagine this began with the Revolutions of 1848, which demonstrated a politically- and emotionally-charged resurgence of awareness of national identity. Although I just imagined the term 'Austro-Hungarianism', it actually is a word, see On the Causes of the Collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (downloadable on request). From the abstract (apparently machine-translated):

"The left-liberal politician O. Jászi occupies a special place in the rich Austro-Hungarianism...we show, relying on the research of O. Jászi, the psychological reason for the collapse of the polyethnic state was the cultural and mental incompatibility of Hungarians and Austrian Germans, as well as of other peoples of the Monarchy. We summarize that the economic backwardness of Hungary and the originality of the Hungarian national identity, [and] a different political culture were the deep disintegrational factors of the disappearance of one of the largest continental empires from the world political map." MinorProphet (talk) 11:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Introduction

Please note that Wikipedia is not a social network. Wikipedia:Guidance for younger editors may contain helpful information about how to contribute to Wikipedia in the future. Dekimasuよ! 09:26, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The Child can speak up to four language this people born in Bangkok and live in Japan also speaks speak Japanese with notable friends and teachers sometimes also speak English speak Thai with my mother speak Russian with my father That's it reply here ⬇️ 2001:44C8:4286:21D8:C94A:392E:B1E3:E94E (talk) 05:44, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Do you have a question? What does "up to" four languages even mean? Shantavira|feed me 08:23, 8 April 2024 (UTC) special kids from Bangkok 2001:44C8:4286:21D8:C94A:392E:B1E3:E94E (talk) 09:14, 8 April 2024 (UTC) Hey everyone to reply this? 2001:44C8:4286:21D8:C94A:392E:B1E3:E94E (talk) 09:21, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

German and French equivalents of Books in Print

The Books in Print series (Google Books link) is a reference work that lists most books currently published or distributed in the United States. I swear I've seen a German equivalent of such a series of massive bibliographical reference books somewhere on the net, and I can't recall the name. In addition, I was wondering if there was a French equivalent as well? Thanks in advance. BorgQueen (talk) 18:24, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

OK I just found it: the German one is apparently Verzeichnis lieferbarer Bücher. Still seeking the French one, if it exists. BorgQueen (talk) 19:00, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

May be Electre: [[10]] - AldoSyrt (talk) 08:08, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@AldoSyrt merci! BorgQueen (talk) 08:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

April 10

Old Articles in The Miami News

Hopefully the reference desk is the right place to ask this. I was reading 1966 United States Senate election in Oregon, and one of the references is to The Miami News. Unfortunately, the Google News link is dead. Moreover, the linked page was first archived by the Wayback Machine in 2022, and it was already dead then. The Miami News is defunct, but its Wikipedia article says its archives were transferred to The Palm Beach Post. However, the archives of The Palm Beach Post only go back to 1989.

I am interested in reading this article, and would be grateful if anyone knows how to access a copy. Thanks, WallAdhesion (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

WallAdhesion (talk) 00:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@WallAdhesion: Try asking at WP:RX if someone has access to it. RudolfRed (talk) 01:49, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Checking Newspapers.com (pay site), I'm seeing an article with that title on page 11 of the May 25 issue. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Available here on Newspapers.com via the Wikipedia Library, if you have or can get access to that. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

April 11

French cartoon with redactions in English

• 
  1842 French version
• 
  1877 English version

I began an entry for the French parody Scènes de la vie privée et publique des animaux (1842) with caricatures by J. J. Grandville and read one commentary about the scene with ants which represents the British Empire. There are pictures of a box with "Opium" written and a sack with "I.I.G." - these two are blacked out in the English edition. "Opium" is obvious but what is "I.I.G."? Shyamal (talk) 06:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC) PS: Maybe "I.I.G." is just for "J.J.Grandville" as it also occurs here? Shyamal (talk) 07:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The article on Grandville mentions that he also used "J. I. I. Grandville" corresponding precisely to his actual initials; given the variations listed, I think personally that it wouldn't be surprising if indeed I. I. G. is just another way of expressing his signature. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:28, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

The signature (bottom right in both versions) has only two initials, which may be read as 'I's or 'J's, but presumably are intended to be read as 'I I Grandville' (rather than 'J I...'). -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:24, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Would 'PORRET' (bottom left) be the engraver? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Henri-Désiré Porret.  --Lambiam 02:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The illustration is already legibly signed "J. J. Grandville", like the others in the book. I cannot readily think of a reason why Grandville would have chosen, if the letters represents his initials, to add an additional conspicuous "$\mathbb {I{\cdot }I{\cdot }G{\cdot }}$" to specifically this one. It seems, on the face of it, more likely to me that it signifies the content (impounded contraband?) of the thus-labeled sack, just like "$\mathbb {OPIUM}$" on the box.  --Lambiam 15:24, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Au contraire; it appears to be a habit of Grandville to include his name or initials as part of the illustration.

• Initials IIG on the back of a chair
• Initials scrawled within the picture, though not on any object
• Surname written on the face of the clock

Perhaps he had a fear of the his signature being trimmed from the edge of reproductions of the drawing, or even omitted by the engraver? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 15:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Wow, thanks @Verbarson:, that settles it! Shyamal (talk) 10:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

This standard signature off to the side below shows that he did indeed on occasion use I. I. Grandville, so IIG is well within the scope of possible initials he may have used. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Similarly, in the illustration on the right, IIG is the listed signature on the bottom. I think this should confirm that the "IIG" shown in the original picture is indeed a signature. GalacticShoe (talk) 03:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I concede.  --Lambiam 15:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Similarly Michael Whelan's paintings often incorporate his monogram (a character in blackletter style that is ambiguous between 'm' and 'w') as a belt buckle or the like. Perhaps both do it because a marginal signature is likely to be cropped out. —Tamfang (talk) 19:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Terence Cuneo's paintings often include a trademark mouse. MinorProphet (talk) 02:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Judaism question.

1. 1 way for a person to lose their Jewishness is to convert to Christianity. My question is, are there any other ways a person can lose their Jewishness? Such as being an outstanding criminal. What if someone was not Jewish, but married into a Jewish family, and later divorced, do they lose their Jewishness? What about someone who married into a Jewish family, then deliberately eat pork, do they lose their Jewishness? I wonder if there are any famous cases where Jewish leaders voted on someone's Jewishness (perhaps maybe hundreds of years ago) and probably wouldn't be common today.

2. I guess I asked this question last time but don't recall getting an answer but if anyone knew who pushed for the idea that if a Jew converts to Christianity, they are no longer a Jew, or even when? This kind of movement could have happened by the 300s or 400s? Thanks. 170.76.231.162 (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC).

First, if you have not already done so, please read our article: Who is a Jew?. It may address some of your questions. The short explanation is that there isn’t one simple answer to who is and is not a Jew. This is because “Jew” is both a religious designation and an ethno/cultural designation. And there is a lot of debate among Jews as to who is and is not considered “Jewish”. Blueboar (talk) 18:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Meh, that doesn't answer my question. My question is on exiting Judaism. From people that are already-established Jews. What you might be talking about are cases where Reform Jews consider someone a Jew but Orthodox Jews don't, but my question is still on exiting 1's status as a Jew. 170.76.231.166 (talk) 18:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC).

There's an old story about a non-practicing Jew walking with a hunchbacked individual. The first one says, "Did you know I used to be Jewish?" The second one says, "Did you know I used to be hunchbacked?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:48, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Do read these anecdotes [11]. It took a few seconds for what happened in Charlie Taylor's answer (no. 5) to sink in. 2A00:23C4:79CD:B301:195B:FE87:8B0:5CE2 (talk) 08:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

But could they share the Smoky Bacon flavour (but guaranteed Vegan) crisps? -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 12:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Your first assumption is already wrong. See Jews for Jesus, or the many second- or third generation Christians of jewish descent killed by the Nazis. As written by Blueboar, Jewishness is not just a religion. There are plenty of famous Jewish atheists, from Isaac Asimov to Marvin Minsky and Leon Trotsky. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 02:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

"Messianic Jews" are viewed by many religious Jews as nasty Christian prosyletizers who maintain a deceptive pretense of being Jews in order to undermine the religion of actual real Jews. There was a big stink connected to Yahoo in its early days (when it was mainly a web directory), when it briefly insisted on classifying Messianic Jews under Judaism, while a united front of just about every significant Jewish group insisted that not be done. Such people would view lapsed or non-practicing ethnic Jews such as Asimov quite differently from proclaimed Messianic Jews. AnonMoos (talk) 21:05, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

170.76.231.162, the above respondents make good points, but assuming you are asking about Judaism just as a religion, in the eyes of traditional Judaism, nothing makes a person "lose their Jewishness" as you put it, so your first assumption about converting to Christianity is incorrect. A Jew who murders someone while munching on a pork sausage with cheese on Yom Kippur is still a Jew, albeit an appalling one. Apostasy from Judaism is something that has happened countless times through the millennia - Judaism is a very old religion, with some pretty good source material - it was an old story before Christianity even began, see for example Ahab, who was a pretty loathsome character, even if you don't care about [any] religion, and probably lived in the 9th century BCE (see Kurkh Monoliths). But he was still a Jew. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:36, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

April 12

Cyberbully case

I remember reading about a case about cyberbullying on Wikipedia, but now, I forgot the perpetrator's name. It was a very famous case in UK. What's his name? He's a computer scientist living in UK. He has harassed many women online. It took law enforcement many years to catch him. He was sentenced to around 20-30 years. Thanks! 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:5D61:6880:607E:9862 (talk) 11:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Matthew Hardy (stalker). 2A00:23D0:482:5E01:C5A6:5743:7A53:A342 (talk) 12:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

On appeal, Hardy (unemployed, AFAICT not a computer scientist) got only eight years in the slammer. Another famous (and sad) case is that of Amanda Todd. The perpetrator was sentenced in Canada to 13 years in prison, to be sat out in the Netherlands. In what is somehow not a famous case, a longer sentence (17 years) was dealt to cyberbullying TikToker Lorenzo Arana from Island Park, New York.^[12]  --Lambiam 15:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

User:Lambiam Matthew Hardy (stalker) is probably not the person I'm looking for. I remember distinctively he is a computer scientist and very intelligent. 2600:6C44:117F:95BE:9488:F560:901D:9673 (talk) 09:52, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Royal baccarat scandal

I’m confused by this article. It says gambling on Baccarat was illegal at the time of the scandal, but the participants in the all-important game seem to have been playing for money. Yet the scandal was about cheating rather than breaking the law. So were they breaking the law or not, and if not, how were they not breaking it? Dronebogus (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

In response to someone raising the precedent that baccarat was illegal, the Home Secretary (Henry Matthews) pointed out to the House of Commons on 26 February 1891 that the case in Jenks v. Turpin "was played in a house kept for playing at that game, and that was rendered illegal by statute. The case is familiar to the Law Officers". The jurist Sir James Stephen in an article in the July issue of The Nineteenth Century seemed to think the game was legal as it was played in private and not in a house kept for the purpose. —Simon Harley (Talk). 15:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

That’s helpful. I think the article needs to clear that up, especially since it seems to imply that playing for money is itself the illegal thing. Dronebogus (talk) 11:56, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

April 13

Pius XII and Mussolini

[...]il più grande uomo da me conosciuto e senz'altro fra i più profondamente buoni: al riguardo ho troppe prove per dimostrarlo.

[...] the greatest man I have known and certainly among the most profoundly good: in this regard I have too much evidence to prove it.

It would have been said by Pius XII about Mussolini in 1952 but I had found no reliable sources, only veterans' and propaganda websites. Today, however, I found it in a book by Arrigo Petacco (more a journalist than a true historian in fact), L'uomo della Provvidenza, Mondadori, 2004, page 9. This is a secondary source because the primary source is not cited. There is a scant bibliography at the end of the book.-- Carnby (talk) 06:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a question? Clearly that source cannot be trusted. Thousands of quotes are attributed to famous people with no citations, and I definitely would not trust them. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I would ask whether a more reliable source about this quote exists or it should be considered definitely spurious.-- Carnby (talk) 08:55, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Here are two possible explanations for the apparent lack of reliable sources for this alleged statement.

1. Pacelli did not say this, or, if he did, it was not recorded in a traceable form.
2. There is a ginormous conspiracy, probably directed by the Vatican, to keep the information hidden from the faithful by making accessible sources disappear.

Take your pick. Occam's razor may apply. Apart from that, it might be somewhat believable if Pacelli had said something like this in 1932, when Mussolini had reconciled with Pius XI, but in 1952, praising the leader of a government that had already proved itself manifestly antisemitic when Pacelli ascended to the papacy? Also consider that Mussolini was an avowed atheist, known for his caustic attacks of Christianity in general and the Catholic Church in particular – temporarily suspended in the early 1930s but then resumed.  --Lambiam 13:36, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

April 15

Which economic event do the recent tech layoffs fall under?

As you're probably aware, there have been many layoffs in the tech industry in the past year. It's my understanding this is the result of excessive hiring during the pandemic. However, there seems to be little commentary about this on Wikipedia. I did find some articles related to recent economic events, but they don't seem to be directly related to the layoffs:

• Great Resignation is about people quitting voluntarily
• 2023–2024 video game industry layoffs is specific to video game companies. Someone on the talk page suggested expanding the article to cover tech layoffs in general, but discussion seems to have stopped
• COVID-19 recession seems to be about a past recession that ended in late 2022
• Financial market impact of the COVID-19 pandemic only covers up to August 2020
• 2021–2023 inflation surge, 2022 stock market decline and 2023 United States banking crisis don't seem to talk much about unemployment

Are these layoffs part of any of the above events? Or are they not considered notable enough for there to be an article about them? Ixfd64 (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Strictly, Wikipedia doesn't do 'commentary', or draw its own conclusions, but only summarises what has already been published in Reliable sources.

If there are several independent pieces in recognised news publications, economic journals and the like specifically discussing these tech layoffs, a Wikipedia article about them could be created using those sources. It is the existence of substantial source material that makes something 'notable' in the Wikipedia sense. As a long-term editor, you likely know all this already.

Of course, a volunteer editor would have to actually do the work of finding these sources and drafting the article. Any takers? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.134.31 (talk) 23:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I obviously meant sourced commentary. At least it's a term we often use in FfD discussions on whether a non-free image may be used as fair use. Ixfd64 (talk) 04:59, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

What layoffs? That's my attempt at a humorous way of suggesting that if you can find a reliable source describing at least a fair chunk of those layoffs, it could guide us in and how to describe them here on Wikipedia. HiLo48 (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

TechCrunch has a comprehensive list of them. Are they considered notable enough? Ixfd64 (talk) 05:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The other day I saw a YouTube video that related these layoffs to the productivity-enhancing use of LLMs. There may be reliable sources making the same connection.  --Lambiam 04:42, 16 April 2024 (UTC)