Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Joel Selwood/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 01:57, 17 December 2008 [1].

Joel Selwood[edit]

Nominator(s): Boomtish
previous FAC

I'm nominating this article (self-nomination) for featured article because I feel it now fulfills all the FA criteria since it's last attempt. It has since gone through a comprehensive peer review and countless edits to get it up to scratch. As an article, I believe it represents some of Wikipedia's best work, particularly within the sub-field of Australian rules football articles Boomtish (talk) 06:40, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support: As a regular contributor, I would have to agree this article fulfills all the FA criteria since it's last FA-nomination, and deserves a FA title. - Allied45 (talk) 09:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: The article is well-researched, well-referenced and fulfils other FA criteria. It should become the standard by which other AFL articles are judged. Rogerthat Talk 13:17, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Issues resolved, Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Slattery book needs a publisher
  • Generally, newspapers are italicised.
  • There seems to be a bit of confusion about websites and who the publishers are. The url (such as afl.com.au) is not the publisher, in this case the publisher would be the Australian Football League and Big Pond. There are a number of other sites that have this issue, and need to be fixed.
  • http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/afl/impressive-selwood-tipped-for-cats-opener/2007/03/26/1174761378613.html&cid=1114812242&ei=dE0IRvS3KaayqgOLhbXNAg deadlinks
    • Link removed, but statement is still backed-up with another source Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes the following reliable sources?
    • http://www.stridesports.com.au/Joel%20Selwood%20wins%20AFLPA%20Best%20First%20Year%20Player.htm
      • Stride Sports Management is a professional managment company that manages football players, including Joel Selwood Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Some extra links to verify: "Talent profile page for Joel Selwood" indicates his association with the agency. "Stride Sports Management Services page" indicates their services as an agency, including management of athletes. This should verify their professionalism and why they should be looked on to provide reliable information about their clients. "Article from the official Australian Football League Players Association site" mentions Selwood's win in the award. Boomtish (talk) 01:41, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • It works, but it'd make more sense to me to use the organization that gave the award to source it, rather than a third party. This is one of those cases where the primary source is perfectly acceptable, as it's a basic "fact" you're referencing, so the organization that gives the award is a valid (and in many cases better) source than a third party source. But that's up to you, I'm satisfied. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.footywire.com/
      • Site's statistical gatherings have been noted as being based on "official AFL statistics" in addition to collaborated works with professional statistical company "ProWess Sports" Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Okay, I've found an article in the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper that mentions footywire.com as being a place you can "find footy records and news stories". Article is "here". I wouldn't think that an established newspaper such as the SMH would mention the site if it were not reliable. Boomtish (talk) 10:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://stats.rleague.com/afl/stats/players/J/Joel_Selwood.html (Needs the publisher listed also)
      • Source removed and replaced with official Australian Football League historical statistical site Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.pro-stats.com.au/psw/web/team_player_rankings?yr=2007&sp=SE&rt=TA&fc=E3&tid=107 (it's also a subscription only site and should mention this if it is deemed reliable)
      • ProStats is owned and run by ProwessSports, which in turn "have a range of statistical marking systems ranging from smaller Back Office units to very complex multi-computer systems used by many of the (actual) AFL clubs". The statistics being used as sources for this article are viewable without subscription Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • It requires registration, at the least, as I get a "register now" page when I click on your link. It says "Register now using the form below, click on 'Register' when done and follow the instructions to activate subscription till 1 Nov 2009 for only $49.95." which does lead me to believe it's subscription only. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Okay, I've since changed the reference to be the official player profile page for Selwood on the club's website (it contains the relevant statistics). Boomtish (talk) 10:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.rebelsport.com.au/ecom/Rebel/product_detail.aspx?id=15339&cat=948 (also lacking a publisher)
      • Use of official Rebel Sport site to back-up claimed association between the player and the Rebel Sport company. Publisher added. Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • See above. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • Official Asics website "here" has Selwood listed amongst their 'partnerships', backing up the statement in the article. Look under 'History' section, then 'Our partnerships'. I've changed the references in the article to this Asics link instead. Boomtish (talk) 10:56, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • http://www.rebelsport.com.au/ecom/Rebel/product_detail.aspx?id=15343 (also lacking a publisher)
      • Use of official Rebel Sport site to back-up claimed association between the player and the Rebel Sport company. Publisher added. Boomtish (talk) 01:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current ref 9 (Murnane, J. ..) is lacking a publisher -
  • Current ref 10 (Naitanui already..) is lacking a publisher
  • The Gullan Book is lacking a publisher
  • Current ref 17 (Morton ..) is lacking a publisher
  • The Townley book needs a publisher
  • Per the MOS, link titles shouldn't be in all capitals, even with the original is.
  • Current ref 56 (Hearld Sun ...) is lacking a publisher
  • Current ref 61 (AFLPA Mother..) is lacking a publisher
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:37, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose - I wish that I didn't have to do this, because it's good to have something original here. However, the fact that there aren't any top-quality models shows. These are almost all from the first couple sections, and lead me to believe that this isn't ready.

  • Premiership is used in both upper and lower-case. Since I'm not familiar with how it is used in Australia, I want to know if it's acceptable to use it either way, or if one method is preferred.
    • In general, used both ways in varying circumstances, but for consistencies sake, I've reverted all use within this article to lower-case Boomtish (talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph of the lead has two uses of "both" that can be removed to make the writing tighter.
  • The AFL Rising Star Award and AFL Premiership title are repeated in the lead. Why? And did nothing of interest occur in the 2008 season? It strikes me that there is little about his AFL career in the lead, and nothing on his style of play. Even one sentence would be nice.
    • Regarding the mentioning of both awards twice within the lead, they are for varying achievements. The first mentioning is to highlight the achievement of being the only player in history to have won both within the same year. The second mentioning is part of a brief summary of awards/achievements at the end of his debut season. I believe that the lead, whilst acting as a concise summary of the article, should also only mention significant achievements (see Tim Duncan, for example). 2008 did not really deliver any actual awards that I would personally consider worthy of mention in the lead of this article. Similar feelings regarding mention of style of play, which I think is somewhat already covered (albeit very briefly) in the mentioning that he is a midfielder at 183cm etc. Boomtish (talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, but according to WP:LEAD, the lead should be a summary of the whole article. I'm not sure it can make that claim now. It's your decision, though. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Lead has been editted to include 2008 achievements and brief statement about playing style. Boomtish (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life: "Although (he was?) raised in a sports-gifted family—mother Maree was a top runner and tennis player, whilst (while) elder twins Adam and Troy were both identified as talented footballers right from their junior days" In addition to my parenthetical comments, I think the "right from" part can be improved.
    • I've editted this accordingly, feel free to have a look. Boomtish (talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a 2-year-old..." Numbers less than 10 are usually spelled out.
    • This issue with numbers/ages being spelt out or kept as numbers was debated rather heavily in the previous peer review for this article. It seems everyone has differing views, particularly given the non-existence of global standard for these things. In essence though, it was concluded previously that the current grammar is acceptable in the context of Australian and Australian sporting articles. Boomtish (talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He excelled as the state hurdling champion..." Can we have something less POV than "excelled"? The semi-colon after this should be a comma.
  • "bar the 100 metres sprint." Bar? Why not just "except for"?
  • "By the time he was 8-years-old" Not only can the number be spelled, but it can be just "eight years old", without the hyphens.
    • See previous comments regarding use of hypens/spelling of numbers/ages etc. Boomtish (talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Selwood played his junior football with the Sandhurst Football Club until, aged 17, he was chosen to play for the Bendigo Pioneers in the elite TAC Cup competition." Move the aged 17 to the end of the sentence because it gets in the way in the middle.
  • Overlinking: AFL Rising Star Award and AFL Premiership linked twice in the lead. TAC Cup linked twice in Early life.
    • Removed second-use of links in each paragraph respectively. Boomtish (talk) 02:04, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is jumping ahead, but I wanted to bring it to your attention: "while Geeling coach Mark Thompson (links to someone from the BBC) labelled an 18 year old (hyphens) Selwood the best youngster to had(have) come under his tutelage during his time at the club."

After this initial reading, I feel like the article at least needs a thorough copy-edit, and am on the verge of suggesting withdrawal and resubmission. That decision is up to you, but there's no way I can support it in this state. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:56, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

After those were fixed, I took another look and found some more points of interest.
  • "Selwood garnered an impressive array of accolades and honours as a bottom-aged player" Can a POV check be performed throughout the article, please? From the looks of it, Selwood was an important part of a championship-winning team as a rookie, among other things. Just let his accomplishments speak for themselves.
    • I feel POV was an issue with the article prior to the previous peer review that was carried out. Since then, after some rather heavy editing, I feel POV is not an extensive issue with the current article. If you disagree, please outline specific lines to be addressed, it would greatly help! On the matter you outlined above, that sentence is in reference to his junior career prior to his AFL career (it reads in his Early Life section). Boomtish (talk) 11:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I know it's referring to his junior career, but saying his award tally was "impressive" is asking for POV queries. As I said above, it's better to just state a person's accomplishments. Here's another one that popped out at me: "Selwood's transition to the rigours of AFL football drew rave reviews from throughout the footballing community". Does the source say rave reviews anywhere? If not, I feel that can be toned down. Also, "football" and "footballing" are somewhat repetitive; try "Selwood's transition to the rigours of the AFL...". Giants2008 (17-14) 00:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Editted accordingly. Removed potential POV-issue words. Boomtish (talk) 01:25, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2007: Three AFL Rising Star Award links.
  • What is the MCG? I'd like to see this spelled out, because I'm not the only person who won't know what it means.
  • Two Geelong links in the section.
  • 2008: "Selwood continued to establish himself as a key player in the Geelong midfield during the 2008 AFL Season" Why is Season capitalized?
    • Careless editing. From memory, was originally 2008 AFL Premiership Season, which was capitalized after how it reads on the official AFL website (and how the AFL advertises the season). Addressed though. Boomtish (talk) 11:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • McClelland Trophy was linked in the previous section.
  • Player profile: "while teammates Joel Corey and Cameron Ling have also acknowledged his maturity and regard as one of the most physical players in the game." Should be "regard him".
  • Please watch for overlinking in Personal life.
    • Done. Potential overlinks removed. Boomtish (talk) 11:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider moving the Personal life section above the statistics and awards list.
I'm not trying to be an annoyance for you. My most-edited article is for an athlete who is about two years older than Selwood, so it would be great to have a model for such an article, from a selfish point of view. However, I strongly recommended that these changes be made, and that outside help be brought in. If these are done, and if Ealdgyth's remaining comment is addressed or struck, I will be happy to drop my opposition. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:32, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to take on outside opinions and advice that may help improve the quality of this article. It is difficult to model this article on any others, as there aren't any AFL-related FA's currently on Wikipedia. I've had to look at other FA athlete articles to try and see what can and can't be replicated in style and structure. Boomtish (talk) 11:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm moving to weak opposition until my notes above are looked at. The lead and my POV concerns are the important ones. I'll switch to neutral once these are done. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:50, 12 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please check the dab links identified in the toolbox and review the MOS issues I left in edit summaries. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:17, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Various MOS issues have been addressed. Boomtish (talk) 11:32, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - All images have descriptions and verifiable licenses. (Might I add, though, that the images are nearly identical. I think the article needs only 1 or 2 - not 3.) Awadewit (talk) 19:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note, this article has hyphenation issues throughout and needs careful coyediting (example: By the time he was 8-years-old, ... ). Also, if that infobox is a standard and has widespread acceptance, ouch. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'll go through the hyphenation issues over the next few days. Cheers Boomtish (talk) 10:16, 26 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Update: I've since addressed some of the hyphenation use throughout the article according to how I interpret the MoS standards on Wikipedia. Boomtish (talk) 10:11, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Prose concerns. I would recommend a third party copyedit. Some examples:

  • "was familiar in playing with"
  • "his age deemed him ineligible"
  • "concern still surrounded his operated knee"
  • "Although his kicking skills statistically carry an average efficiency of 76%, his decision-making ability is often used to counteract his productivity with the football"
  • "has said that the widespread nature of the family"

-- Mike Christie (talk) 23:27, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - sorry. This is an interesting, well-researched article and I enjoyed reading it but there are problems with the writing. I would like to see it achieve FA status but it needs copy-editing. Here are some examples:

  • There is a missing quotation attributed to Kevin Sheehan.
  • "..in one year holding.." -> "and in one year held"
  • Three clumsy occurrences of "saw him".
  • "In winning" -> "By winning"
  • Some jargon e.g. "seventh pick overall", "and proceeded to kick three goals"
  • Redundancy, (and a very poorly written sentence) - "Although his kicking skills statistically carry an average efficiency of 76%, his decision-making ability is often used to counteract his productivity with the football" - there is no need for "statistically" when giving an "average".
  • "A life-long supporter of the Cats growing up in Bendigo" - did the Cats grow-up in Bendigo. And the article does not say who the Cats are, it is assumed that the readers already I know, (I didn't). I'm sorry to oppose, I would really like to see this become featured—but it is not ready yet. Graham Colm Talk 12:36, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]


  • Oppose - sorry, but the prose needs work, and there are some areas where clarification is needed. Here is what I found from the lead and the first paragraph of the main article:
  • The first thing I noticed is a sea of blue in the lead. Is it possible to cut down on the wikilinks a bit?
  • As a standout junior track and field athlete and footballer from Bendigo, Selwood entered top-level football early, joining the TAC Cup competition as a bottom-aged player. - Early in what?
  • Despite a serious knee injury during his final junior football year, Selwood was selected with Geelong's first selection, and the seventh overall, in the 2006 AFL Draft. - "Serious" is vague, and requires a bit of explanation.
  • He has since represented Victoria in the AFL Hall of Fame Tribute Match, as the youngest player to feature in the all-star event, and helped Geelong reach successive AFL Grand Finals. - Remove the comma after "match".
  • Off the field, he has acted as an ambassador for the Seeing Eye Dogs Australia organisation alongside his brothers, Adam, Troy, and Scott, who each play in the AFL for West Coast, Brisbane, and West Coast, respectively. - "Off the field" is, at least in my opinion, not encyclopedic language.
  • Specify in the early life section when he was born.
  • He was raised in a family of sportspeople. - Choppy sentence.
  • His mother Maree was a top runner and tennis player, while elder twins Adam and Troy were both identified as talented footballers at a young age.'" - Remove "both".
  • However as a 2-year old, Joel was forced to wear splints on his leg to help overcome a walking disability. - Is there any more information available on this walking disability?
  • Selwood displayed gifts as an athlete from an early age. - I don't understand this. Did he literally give out Gifts?

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 15:51, 14 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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