Template talk:Infobox academic/Archive 1

Archive 1

Template:Infobox Scientist

Aside from the absence of the fields "author_abbrev_bot" and "author_abbrev_zoo", how is this template different from Template:Infobox Scientist? And, if these are the only differences, is a separate template really needed? Thanks, Black Falcon ^(Talk) 06:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

template broken?

Why does the template cause the Table of Contents for an article to be generated as a set of footnotes in the infobox? {{Infobox scientist}} doesn't have this problem, and this one does seem to be based quite a bit off that one. Esrever ^(klaT) 19:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Embedding voice files

A project I'm running, and a related event in mid-January will soon add around a thousand recordings of article subjects' voices to their biographies. I'd like to embed those in the relevant infoboxes, as in this example (using {{Infobox person}}). Can we add the necessary |module= parameter to this template? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:37, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

No, please - give them their own little box. Much too crufty and against WP:INFOBOX principles. Of course adding them is an excellent idea, but not in the main box. Johnbod (talk) 18:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes please. Nobody (not even Johnbod if he checked) would prefer an ugly separate box to an elegant integration within the infobox. If it works so well with {{infobox person}}, then it should be just as useful in this template. --RexxS (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

You're wrong there I'm afraid! Johnbod (talk) 19:42, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

and the related embed = Dave Rave (talk) 16:28, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Why no education parameter?

One of the most important bits of information for a scholar is his education. The person infobox has a parameter for education, but the scholar infobox does not. I recommend that an education parameter be added to the scholar infobox. Other relevant parameters such as occupation, employer, and organization should probably be added too. --JHP (talk) 02:07, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

sounds like you should just use {{infobox person}}. Frietjes (talk) 23:43, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

This template should be merged into {{infobox person}}. Of this template's unique features:

• |era= - redundant to birth/death dates or "flourished"
• |region= - unnecessary; or redundant to nationality/ residence/ ethnicity
• |school_tradition= - redundant to |known_for=, |movement=, or |notable_works=
• |main_interests= - redundant to |known_for=, |movement=, or |notable_works=
• |notable_ideas= - redundant to |known_for=, |movement=, or |notable_works=

-- Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:08, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree heartily with JHP, and so disagree with Frietjes and Andy: This is not a merger candidate, but an improvement candidate, as this infobox fills an important role but is decidedly wanting. Please, all readers, compare it to "Infobox scientist", [1], and suggest a way forward. Most of the same informational components that are relevant to scientific scholars are as much or more relevant to those not in science. (For instance, a scientist almost never remains in the same particular vein of research of their graduate thesis, while most scholars in the humanities do so remain.) Note, I have also raised a general flag at the Infoboxes main talk page, here [2]; look for the late talk mentioning "academic / professor". Cheers, look forward to an informed, thoughtful discussion after this and the Scientist boxes are compared. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 16:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

RfC on Template:Infobox person

This message is to notify you that there is an RfC ongoing on whether to add pronunciation info to {{Infobox person}}, a discussion which may also affect this template. Your comments on the matter are appreciated. The discussion can be found here. Thanks! 0x0077BE ^{(talk · contrib)} 17:23, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Propose Infobox academic

See proposal here Template_talk:Infobox_theologian#Propose Infobox academic :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 08:41, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Qualifications for 'Notable Students' and 'Influences' Parameters

• |notable_students= - Who qualifies as a 'notable student' exactly? Are these people who had their dissertations supervised by the scholar, did they take a class with the scholar, or is it less restrictive than that?
• |influences= - What qualifies as a third-party source? I'm not sure exactly what this means. If the scholar says that they were influenced by someone, wouldn't this count?
• |influenced= - Above two questions apply; what qualifies as someone who is 'influenced'? Is there formal criteria? Further, what third party sources are required to qualify this?

Joeyvandernaald (talk) 19:33, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Honorific prefixes?

This template has no TemplateData to go with it, and so there are gaps in how to apply it which are leaving me to guess— for example, the honorific prefix: in academia, I presume we are to put "Doctor" for most Ph.D.s, yes? And if the person is a university dean, do we put "Dean" here? Or is "Doctor" the preferential title when a person is both a Ph.D. and a dean? What about university presidents? Is the honorific title meant to be the title for the highest degree held or for the academic position held? As an academic, I feel I should know this, but Wikipedia has always made its own community-based rules for such things and I don't want to guess and be "wrong" in this sense. TemplateData would have been super helpful. What if the person were also a British knight? "Sir Doctor"? Documentation gives no clue. KDS4444 (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The consensus on Wikipedia is to not use academic honorific prefixes/suffixes: see MOS:HONOURIFIC. So Doctor, PD, PhD, BA, MBA etc aren't used. What you can put in |honorific prefix= are other honorifics such as Rabbi, The Reverend, The Honourable, Her Honour, Sir, Dame, military rank, etc. Basically, this parameter IS NOT about academic titles; those would go in |title=. If it would go on your passport, it can go in |honorific prefix=; excluding doctor and professor. This would be acceptable, "Sir John Smith, OBE" but this wouldn't "Dr Sarah Jones MBA". Does that help? Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 22:48, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Does it help? Absolutely! You have given me exactly the answer I was looking for, Gaia Octavia. Much thanks! KDS4444 (talk) 23:19, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Parents

As I can't imagine there could be any objection, I would like to request that support for the Parents parameter be added (by adding {{{parents|}}} in the appropriate place). Thanks, 142.160.131.202 (talk) 22:27, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

Done — nihlus kryik  (talk) 07:07, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Inconsistency in the documentation

There are the fields doctoral-students and notable-students. In one place, it says that notable-students must be notable but says nothing about doctoral-students leading me to understand that this field could be used for non-notable doctoral students. Elsewhere it says both fields must be notable. So what then is the distinction between these fields? Is it the doctoral-ness? Are we seriously proposing including lists of notable but non-doctoral students ("they supervised their lab class once")? What exactly is the difference between these fields? Or should we merge them into notable-doctoral-students? Kerry (talk) 08:58, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

Simply put |doctoral_students= is for students who as the academic in question as a doctoral advisor/supervisor (whatever the local terminology is, the person who is the lead or co-lead on their doctoral degree), while |notable_students= who be for other students (undergrads, masters students, etc). For universities where academics are hands-off in their influence on students until the doctorate stage, |notable_students= wouldn't be appropriate. However, at universities such as Oxford and Cambridge where on academic is meeting with a student every week over three or four years, it is appropriate. So |notable_students= is only appropriate when there is a similar level of contact/influence as one might expect at doctoral level at all universities. Does that answer your question Kerry? Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 15:35, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. Can that be documented please. Kerry (talk) 15:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I'll update the parameters explanation bit to reflect this. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 15:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Child parameter

As I can't imagine there could be any objection, I would like to request that the Child parameter be added to the infobox, as I have done in the template's sandbox so that the template can be used alongside other modules in {{Infobox person}}. Thanks, 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done for now: Have you verified that the functionality associated with |module= is unaffected with this change, as that too uses a child infobox? Izno (talk) 05:07, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

@Izno: I'm not clear on how |module= could be affected given that we'd be dealing with |module= in two separate templates (albeit one embedded into the other). I've tested the usage of the sandbox in {{Infobox person}} and I haven't run into any issues. And I'm not sure how this would be any different than the usage at, e.g., {{Infobox clergy}}, which also uses |module=. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 05:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Sure. You might try it out on the test case page to see what happens. --Izno (talk) 05:59, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

@Izno: I've already tested it, so I'm not clear what you're looking for... you just want me to copy-and-paste {{Infobox person}} with {{Infobox academic/sandbox}} embedded in it onto the test case page for you? 142.160.131.202 (talk) 06:09, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

My concern is that the child navbox embedded in the module of this template should be unaffected by allowing this template to be a child of another template. Did you test that? The test case page is unedited of recent. --Izno (talk) 06:37, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

@Izno: Yes, like I said, I did indeed test that before submitting the request (and logically I can't see how they could be affected). Nonetheless, I've created an example for you at Template:Infobox academic/testcases § Oliver Chase Quick. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:53, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

There having been no reply, I am returning the status of the request to unanswered. (Note: I am the same IP as above.) 142.161.81.20 (talk) 03:01, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Question: @Izno: any other concerns about functionality? Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 09:08, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

fixed. Frietjes (talk) 17:55, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Citizenship and sub-discipline

As I don't suspect there could be any objection, I would like to request that support for the Citizenship parameter be added (by adding {{{citizenship|}}} in the appropriate place) for cases where the Nationality parameter is inappropriate (as discussed in the documentation for Template:Infobox person). 142.160.131.202 (talk) 04:34, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

Additionally, the label for the Sub-discipline field appears to be missing a hyphen. Could that also be added? Thanks, 142.160.131.202 (talk) 04:44, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

@142.160.131.202: Y Partly done I've added the hyphen to "Sub-discipline", but could you provide an example as to when "citizenship" legitimately replaces "nationality" and doesn't make it redundant? Don't worry, I know it's in good faith... :) ToThAc (talk) 18:27, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

@ToThAc: It would be in cases like those discussed here: Nationality § Nationality versus citizenship. 142.160.131.202 (talk) 01:27, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

There having been no reply, I am returning the status of the request to unanswered. (Note: I am the same IP as above.) 142.161.81.20 (talk) 18:37, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Done AdA&D 19:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Partner

I propose adding |partner= to this infobox. This would bring it inline with Template:Infobox person. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 19:59, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Website

The field |website= does not appear in the doc but still works. The thesis fields also do not show up even if populated. Also, the template {{URL}} does not display correctly, nor does a simple [] around the url. See this diff. Is this some new feature?--Auric talk 13:11, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

{{URL}}

Unlike {{infobox person}} and other personal infoboxes, this infobox uses {{URL}} in the website field, which breaks uses of {{official URL}}. Would this be able to be removed (i.e., by replacing {{#if:{{{website|}}}|{{URL|{{{website|}}}}}}} with {{{website|}}}), thus bringing it into conformity with other infoboxes of the same class? Thanks, 142.161.81.20 (talk) 23:46, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

 Done --B dash (talk) 05:23, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Track Wikidata property "occupation" (P106)

The Wikidata property "occupation" (d:Property:P106) is a good candidate for possible Wikidata parameters to track. See the sandbox here for an example implementation.— Sasuke Sarutobi (talk) 18:21, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Parents 2

As the parents parameter was recently removed without discussion on the basis that the parameter is "deprecated", I would like to request that it be restored given that the parameter is not, in fact, deprecated. 142.161.81.20 (talk) 03:07, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Question: @Omnipaedista: could you answer this user with regards to your removal of |parents= as "deprecated"? Ben · Salvidrim! ✉ 09:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

If you insert "parents" and then try to fill out the parameter in an article, you get the message: "Page using Template:Infobox academic with unknown parameter "parents" (this message is shown only in preview)." I just tried to re-insert the parameter and check again and the same message appeared when I tried to fill out the parameter in random articles featuring Template:Infobox academic. Related templates have the same issue. Until someone more knowledgeable figures out what is going on here and fix it, we probably should not have "parents" displayed here. --Omnipaedista (talk) 16:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

fixed. Frietjes (talk) 17:56, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. --Omnipaedista (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

I would propose a more general relatives parameter. This is already enabled by {{Infobox person}} and would allow editors to add parents as well as siblings or children, which are equally important. Ergo Sum 22:42, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't be opposed to having that in addition to the Parents parameter. 142.161.81.20 (talk) 04:53, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

I would prefer replacing the parents parameter with a more general relatives parameter. Is there input on this question? If not, I will go ahead and just implement an additional parameter called relatives. Ergo Sum 03:16, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done Ergo Sum 01:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Home town

I would like to ask that support for the home town parameter be added to the infobox (much like {{Infobox person}}, {{Infobox clergy}}, etc.) for subjects whose home town is not the same as their birth place. An example of its use would be at Vladimir Lossky. While Lossky was born in Göttingen, Germany, and died in Paris, France, he was raised and educated in Saint Petersburg, Russia. Thanks, 142.160.89.97 (talk) 18:27, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 00:19, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

@L293D: I think you used a space rather than an underscore. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 05:19, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

 Fixed –Ammarpad (talk) 08:23, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

Correct parameter for including full name

There are about a hundred pages over at Category:Pages using infobox academic with unknown parameters that use the undefined parameter "fullname". In most cases, it seems the person has a middle name that's not included in the page title. Does it make more sense to move this to "birth_name" (if appropriate), "name", or "other_names"? Should this even be included? I'm inclined to use "birth_name", provided they were born with the name, and then "other_names" otherwise, but there's no description on the template page for when to use "other_names", and I'm not sure if "birth_name" is only used if the person's name actually changed at some point, so I figured I'd check first. Suelru (talk) 03:05, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Suelru, I use |birth_name= if |name= is something like "AB Smith", and also with those who marry/otherwise change their names. They should never be repeats of each other. At Template:Infobox person, |birth_name= is described as "Name at birth; only use if different from name". I'd say that was clear, and if you agree, I suggest that we change the explanation at this infobox to match the "mother infobox". Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 19:18, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Scholars outside the academy

While the fields of {{Infobox scholar}} work perfectly fine for scholars who spent most/all of their career outside the academy, the headings "Academic background" and "Academic work" don't quite fit. In the sandbox, I've added a parameter called non-academic for such cases which replaces the headings with "Scholarly background" and "Scholarly work" respectively. It does not, however, affect academic_advisors as, even in these cases, that parameter would be for the scholar's academic education (if applicable). Thanks, 142.160.89.97 (talk) 05:52, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

 Declined Can you state in what use cases this can be useful and why scholarly background/work cannot fall under academic background/work? --qedk (t 桜 c) 09:21, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@QEDK: Academic suggests the work pertains to academia. The proposed parameter would be useful for scholars outside of academia; i.e., scholars who didn't spend any significant portion of their career at a university or a similar institute of higher learning. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 04:22, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I certainly understand its use. I'm asking for specific usecases, like which article(s) would benefit from this additional parameter. --qedk (t 桜 c) 05:42, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

@QEDK: I had a specific use case in mind when I initially made the request, but as that was nearly a month ago, it's only natural that I can't recall which article I was hoping to use it on in particular. An example of another case where it could be used, however, would be Mary Kitson Clark. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Actually, I think the original use case I was thinking of might have been Neville Figgis. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 19:01, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

 Done, given {{Infobox scholar}} redirects here it is a reasonable expection it should adjust to both usecases. --qedk (t 桜 c) 19:07, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

School/Tradition parameter inadvertently triggering "Academic background" heading

As the school/tradition parameter is now under "Academic work" / "Scholarly work", can we stop its use from triggering the "Academic background" / "Scholarly background" heading? The necessary code is in the sandbox. Thanks, 142.160.89.97 (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done Though there was another update necessary to implement your edit request properly... Izno (talk) 20:23, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Residence

I would like to request that the residence parameter be added to the template for cases where a subject's residence is not the same as their birthplace (in line with {{infobox person}} documentation). 142.161.81.20 (talk) 03:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Done AdA&D 18:45, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

@Anne drew Andrew and Drew: It appears you placed it within Region. I assume this was done in error? 142.161.81.20 (talk) 05:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Actually I didn't add it at all, the residence field was already an option, it was just missing from the docs. Apparently it can be accessed with both "region" and "residence" parameters. That is to say, {{Infobox academic|... residence=France ...}} and {{Infobox academic|... region=France ...}} have the same output. – by AdA&D at 15:09, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

There is a problem with this implementation. If |region= is in the infobox with no value, it suppresses a value specified with |residence=. Frietjes? See Prudence Crandall as an example. MB 15:35, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

User:MB, okay, now un-nested. Frietjes (talk) 15:41, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

|field =

In Category:Pages using infobox academic with unknown parameters, I see a few articles with an unknown parameter called |field=. Was this here before? If so should this go to |main_interests= instead? - SUBWAY 17:56, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Doctoral students/notable students

The template says “only for those with Wikipedia articles”, but the text below that says “only for those notable enough for Wikipedia articles”. Which is correct? I certainly hope the template is wrong. The existence of a Wikipedia article about a person is only very loosely correlated with their importance. Will Orrick (talk) 23:20, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I've always understood it to be the latter (which, of course, is somewhat correlated with the former). 207.161.86.162 (talk) 06:49, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Embedding broken

The most recent edit to the template broke instances of the template that use the child parameter for embedding. Could it be reverted or, alternatively, could the template be set up such that the terms "child" and "embed" would be interchangable? (Pinging Omnipaedista.) Thanks, 207.161.86.162 (talk) 07:55, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

I reverted myself. Sorry about this. --Omnipaedista (talk) 07:59, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Omnipaedista. 207.161.86.162 (talk) 08:04, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Academic background section not being triggered by thesis_title parameter

The academic background section is currently triggered by the thesis1_title and thesis2_title parameters but not by the thesis_title parameter. I have rectified this in the sandbox (and removed the line break at the top of the code). Thanks, 207.161.86.162 (talk) 21:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Second main interest needed in example

I came to the article to see how main interests in an infobox should be formatted: separated by bullets with only the first item capitalized, or vertically in a list with the first word of each entry capitalized, or what? But the C.S. Lewis example, with only one interest, gives no indication on this. Is there a preferred style, or is any way of showing them acceptable? An example with more than one interest would be more helpful. Thanks. –Roy McCoy (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Doctoral students parameter

I have opened a discussion at Template_talk:Infobox_scientist#Students_parameter_consistency which may be of interest to watchers of this page. - Astrophobe (talk) 18:30, 13 December 2020 (UTC)