Talk:Star and crescent

Venus.[edit]

The link between the star and crescent with the planet venus is evident in a number of ways. For instance, every 8 earth years (or 13 venus years), equals 5 synodic periods between the earth, venus and the sun. This is known as the 'pentagram of venus'. The crescent moon is indicative of this since venus is most visible at dawn and dusk due to it's close orbit with the sun, meaning it often appears in the sky in conjunction with the waxing and waning crescent moon. This heliocentric reference to the venus orbit is reflected in many cultures through history. Another example would be the associations of the pentagram and 8 pointed star with Isis who is likewise associated with venus, as is also true with the Latvian god Auseklis. For anyone who hasn't fallen under the mistaken belief that geocentric cosmology was the norm prior to Copernicus, the references are clear, obvious and consistent from culture to culture through history. -- 91.214.169.69 (talk), 2017-03-08 11:07 utc

The Venus sentence is currently unsourced, but if a source is found this photo could also be linked. -- Jeandré, 2008-12-05t16:05z

Its called the "Crescent and Star"[edit]

Flags of the Mughals and their servicemen:[edit]

Zulfiqar Ali Khan was dispatched by the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb to initiate the Siege of Jinji in 1690 after it was captured by the renegade Maratha leader Rajaram. He was soon after appointed as the first Nawab of the Carnatic, Zulfiqar Ali Khan then besieged and defeated Rajaram on and off there for eight years until the year 1698 and firmly established Mughal rule in the region.^[1]

Significance of star in front of moon[edit]

This has been bugging me for a while--I remember reading somewhere that the star and crescent had to do with Allah's ability to put stars in front of the moon, something only a God could do. Does this have anything to do with the star and crescent? Citizen Premier 05:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I seriously doubt it -- though it is true that the star in the Islamic symbol is often placed in a position where it would be behind the moon (and so unobservable) in reality. But the Islamic crescent is generally significantly different in shape from the actual astronomical shape of the moon's crescent anyway, as you can read at article Crescent. AnonMoos 10:35, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The origin of these symbols and the significance of the star in front of the moon has been fully explained by David N. Talbott in his The Saturn Myth, Doubleday, 1980 (available in Kindle format at the Internet Archive, https://archive.org/details/TalbottDavidTheSaturnMyth1980). See also God Star and Flare Star by Dwardu Cardona. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.233.160.78 (talk) 10:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial symbol?[edit]

I read somewhere that the star and crescent is a controvercial symbol for some Muslims because it originated in the pre-Islamic Shamanist beliefs of the Turks. Is this true? What is the symbol's status in Arab countries, which do not really use the star and crescent in their flags?

Copying from Talk:Crescent:

All those who are interested in the matter can rather easily find out that the crescent was not used as a symbol of Islam during Muhammad's lifetime, and some back-to-the-origins or Salafi type Muslims dislike it for that reason (so the Taliban flag and the Saudi Arabian flag include Arabic lettering, in accordance with the practices of early Islam, and avoid crescents), but this hasn't prevented a red crescent from showing up on the OIC flag, and the Red Crescent is still the Muslim version of the Red Cross in all Muslim-majority countries... AnonMoos 15:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In 1995 as a result of which in the morning of a day of June it was appraised to the exit of the Sun to an increasing moon with a star and was seen in Mexico I listened to in a radio station of Mexico City many commentaries on the part of several residents of Arab origin in Mexico on the origin to adopt to the Star and crescent with the star as symbol of the Islam and the most accepted by the Arab community resident in Mexico is the one that when the day in which the prophet Muhammad was born in the sky appeared a star and crescent and some followers as tribute and memory began to use this symbol.--Beaker35 (talk) 23:22, 30 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Impossible legend[edit]

"When the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol. Legend holds that the founder of the Ottoman Empire, Osman had a vision of a crescent moon which he adopted as the Ottoman Empire's symbol when Constantinople fell."

The above sentence cannot be accurate since Osman lived and died well before Constantinople fell.

heh funny legend, whoever told it must have a great immagination and few knowledge, check Flag of Turkey, it is related with Kosovo War and assasination of Murad I not with byzantines anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.242.95.40 (talk) 08:37, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the offending sentence, which was unsourced anyway. --Lambiam ^Talk 02:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Zelda?[edit]

The Mirror Shield in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time had this symbol on it, but then it was removed. But maybe that's not worth mentioning in this article?--Phred Levi 15:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.72.21.221 (talk) 01:16, 19 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

not really Super Ghouls'n Ghosts, and some Duck Tales Games contains Christian crosses on gravestones in the Japaneses version which was censored in the western version.--Brainfire2008 (talk) 20:32, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge "Flags similar to the flag of Turkey" to "star and crescent"[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was article deleted

It has been suggested that Flags similar to the flag of Turkey be merged with the entry for star and crescent.

Survey[edit]

Agree The entry should be merged to either flag of Turkey, in the manner of other entries for national flags, or to star and crescent. In any case, there are no grounds for creating an entry for what is, after all, mostly a coincidence, i.e. similarity in design. -The Gnome 07:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Those r two distinct and unrelated things, and must remain separate! Oren neu dag (talk) 10:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Origin of star and crescent: Islam or Turkey?[edit]

In the article it is claimed that "[the star and cresecent] are traditional symbols of Turkish (Turkic) identity". However, a distinction should be made between Ottomans and Turks, especially with modern Turkey. The entry already includes a link to an Answers.com article which states that "The city of Byzantium (later known as Constantinople and Istanbul) adopted the crescent moon as its symbol ... When the Turks conquered Constantinople (Istanbul) in 1453, they adopted the city's existing flag and symbol ... the Ottoman Empire ruled over the Muslim world. After centuries of battle with Christian Europe, it is understandable how the symbols of this empire became linked in people's minds with the faith of Islam as a whole." In the entry for star and crescent it is further claimed that "Many Muslim nations, such as Pakistan, and non-sovereign nations such as Turkestan and Tatarstan use it on their national flag, inspiring from the secular Republic of Turkey, the successor state to the Ottoman Empire". However, this is false -- and it is why the Wiki entry titled "Flags inspired by the flag of Turkey" was initially re-titled (to "Flags similar to...") and then completely deleted. I propose that the text of the entry for star and crescent is amended to reflect only the established facts. The rest is original research. -The Gnome (talk) 07:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try for some clean-up this weekend. -The Gnome (talk) 11:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

you can find more information on flag of turkey about the adoption(Kosovo war theory is proved), also gokturks used it as a symbol, but Greek use of crescent and star predates that even with 5 points star(on a cypriot coin of hellenistic era). it looks like greeks abandoned usage of it with christianity(to a byzantine cross), It has few to do with islam(dont know any arabic sources mentioning it as a symbol(, and in fact it is irregular for islam to adopt such symbols because of their polytheism phobia(Allah was moon god of poly theist arabs,and crescend was his symbol) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.242.95.40 (talk) 08:35, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perseus?[edit]

I seem to remember reading (I believe it was in Tom Holland's "Rubicon", although I'm not entirely certain) that the star and crescent was an ancient symbol of the Greek hero Perseus, actively used by the kings of Pontos/Pontus (now part of Turkey, incidentally) in their propaganda because of its appeal to their Ionian subjects. Can anyone verify this?

Maitreya (talk) 11:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions that article be merged - tag removal[edit]

It has been suggested that this article be merged into Symbols of Islam, and/or Islamic Flags. This does not seem at all justifiable in view of the well-documented fact that the star and crescent predate Islam itself, and were used to represent no less significant a place than Byzantium/Constantinople. Merging discussion of this symbol into articles focusing on Islamic symbols or flags would in effect bury the symbol in its later associations, and further obscure its documented non-Islamic origins. The tags in the article which suggest merging are both more than 10 months old and no significant discussion has taken place here on the talk page. Given that nobody seems to seriously support the merging of this article, and that merging it would tend to further submerge the historical symbol in contemporary Islamic associations I am removing these tags. The star and crescent certainly have Islamic associations which are today primary, but as a historical phenomenon, the use of this symbol is not exclusively Islamic; it deserves separate treatment in its own article. --Picatrix (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article Clean Up and Expansion[edit]

This article is currently a mess, and is poorly cited. I'll begin working on it over the next few days. I welcome the input of informed editors. --Picatrix (talk) 21:22, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned I have rewritten the article, attempting to incorporate sources. The article as it currently stands is sorely in need of quality references to the use of the star and crescent in Byzantium prior to the Turkish conquest. I want to write more about Byzantine usage, but I have been unable to identify any primary sources that establish the use of the symbol other than coins, which are often ambiguous. --Picatrix (talk) 19:21, 10 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One issue with the article is its focus. Though it is primarily talking about the history of the symbol as it relates to the history of Byzantium and how other cultures inherited that symbol, it includes some links and images to things that seem to have no direct relationship (e.g. I think New Orleans' use of the crescent symbol is completely unrelated). The lead itself really talks about how stars and crescents appear in different cultures and then mentions Islam. There is no clear indication as to what the article is really about. I could just as easily have an article Square (symbol) and talk about all the flags and emblems that have square shapes in them. That would be a pointless article. The lead needs to clearly specify which stars and crescents it is talking about and how they are related to each other. It is worth even going so far as to briefly contrast this with other unrelated uses of stars and crescent so as to be clear about the article's topic (which maybe implies retitling the article; debatable). --Mcorazao (talk) 19:03, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is about the symbol called the star and crescent. The whole point with symbols is that the are multivalent, and their use persists (often with changing signification values) despite changing circumstances. There is no need to change the title of the article, in my opinion. The title of the article is not "Byzantine star and crescent"; it's just "Star and crescent". Hence, there is no requirement that discussion be confined only to instances of the use of this symbol in a Byzantine context. In any case the article is not primarily about its use as it relates to Byzantium - that is simply a major unifying thread. And yes, you could have an article about the use of the square as a symbol and discuss the various cultural and historical contexts for the use of the square as a symbol, as well as associated semiological considerations. It would not, in fact, be pointless. --Picatrix (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should add, however, that I find the endless addition of flags and emblems (particularly of fraternity and sorority emblems) kind of tiresome and rather pointless, but I'm not the only editor working on the article. Since it's silly but harmless I haven't gotten worked up about it. Anyway it's at the bottom and doesn't conflict with the text. As for the New Orleans police badge: yes, it doesn't really bear on the subject of the article, but it doesn't have to, because it has been placed under "See Also". --Picatrix (talk) 19:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Claims of 'Turkish' origin for the star and crescent symbol[edit]

User Jackling11:

Welcome to Wikipedia. I am happy to see properly referenced evidence of the use of the Star and Crescent symbol by the Turks included in this article. I originally rewrote this article to include more balanced discussion of the Turkish use of the symbol. Originally, it was full of Greek nationalist claims that were poorly sourced and certainly not neutral.

But poorly sourced and non-neutral pro-Turkish claims are no better than the Greek ones. Wikipedia is not the place to push a nationalist agenda. Non-academic web publications pushing a nationalist or 'Pan-Turanist' ideology are not reliable sources for an encyclopedia. Nor are fringe theories like the "güneş dil teorisi" or the idea that the Sumerians were ancient Turks.

Even the references you provide (and there are only two, which are both popular online articles, not proper scholarly publications from an academic press or journal) fail to offer any evidence of the use of a combined star and crescent among the Turks prior to the Ottoman empire.

Furthermore, you claim in the opening paragraph that the symbol of the star and crescent was first adopted by Muslims because of its use by Ottoman Turks. This is simply not true. The article already discusses the borrowing of the symbol by Muslims based on Sassanid models (and provides references). You say that before the Ottomans no Muslim country used the symbol. This is not true. Persia was a Muslim country that existed long before the Turks arrived in Anatolia. Some of the earliest examples of the symbol have been found in Persia, and after they became Muslims the Persians continued to use the symbol, before the arrival of the Seljuks or Ottomans.

The article already discusses the use of the symbol by the Turks. And I would like to see more discussion of the use of the symbol by the Turks, but only if it can be properly supported with reliable sources. You might want to consider familiarizing yourself with Wikipedia's content policies before making further edits (verifiability, no original research and neutral point of view).

Saygilarimla, --Picatrix (talk) 10:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removing content unrelated to subject of article[edit]

The star and crescent symbol (including both a star and a crescent positioned together as a compound sign) is the subject of this article. However, many of the examples of the use of the star and crescent in emblems and devices included here do not, in fact, contain this symbol. Many contain only crescents, and a few contain crescents in relationships with multiple stars that do not resemble the star and crescent symbol under discussion.

The following flags do not contain a star and crescent symbol: National Symbol of the Bosniaks in Sandžak; Flag of First Saudi State.

The following emblems do not contain a star and crescent symbol: Municipal coat of arms of Aljustrel, Portugal; Municipal coat of arms of Borba, Portugal; Parish coat of arms of Massamá, Portugal; Parish coat of arms of Queluz, Portugal; Parish coat of arms of Rio de Mouro, Portugal; Parish coat of arms of São Pedro de Penaferrim, Portugal; National Symbol of the Bosniaks in Sandžak.

The following fraternity and sorority emblems do not contain a star and crescent symbol: Lambda Chi Alpha; Delta Delta Delta; Alpha Gamma Rho; DeMolay International; Kappa Sigma.

Because none of the above listed flags, emblems or devices actually depict the star and crescent symbol which is the subject of this article, I am removing them.

The following flags show developments of the star and crescent motif with multiple stars: Flag of Turkmenistan; Flag of Uzbekistan; Flag of Singapore; Flag of Comoros. While these are not examples of the star and crescent motif proper, I've left them because the use of the multiple stars is clearly an intentional development of the Islamic star and crescent motif intended to show a relationship with Islam. --Picatrix (talk) 10:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Symbol of political Islam[edit]

It is unclear where this originated. It seems clear that until 1920, the symbol was just associated with the Ottoman Empire, and by the 1970s, it had become a common symbol of Islamism. This leaves us a 50 year window during which the symbolism must have arisen.

The relevant question on this context seems to be, why was the symbol picked for the Flag of Pakistan in 1947 (Pakistan never having been part of the Ottoman Empire). Perhaps the adoption of the flag of Pakistam marks the transition of the association from "Ottoman" to "Islam". The green colour of the Pakistani flag clearly symbolized Islam, while the crescent and star apparently stood for "progress and light respectively."

I can only assume that the association with Islam arose based on the post-Ottoman and the Pakistani flags during the 1950s to 1960s, and was generally taken for granted by the 1970s. --dab (𒁳) 11:33, 29 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good question! And something that should probably be addressed here. However, I haven't come across any sources dealing with this. My suspicion is that the flag of the Turkish Republic established by Ataturk carried clear connotations of secularism and progress. Many people forget the that the model of the secular republic guaranteed by the military really rose to prominence with Ataturk. It was of course imitated throughout what we often call the "Middle East", Egypt under Nasser being a notable example, no less than the governments of Jordan, Syria and Iraq prior to the US invasion (though the 'democracy' of these regimes is obviously very open to question). What I mean to say is that the flag of Turkey was probably representative of the introduction of secularism and 'Western progress' at the time. Again, though, no sources. Would love to hear about some if you can find them. --Picatrix (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Crescent and star[edit]

The title of this article must be "Crescent and star"! (in Turkish: Ay Yıldız) Böri (talk) 11:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Star and Crescent" = WRONG! It must be "Crescent and star"! Böri (talk) 10:57, 31 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why must it be? The symbol predates any record of the Turkic languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cabazap (talk • contribs) 22:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Flag of Libya[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Libya_(1951).svg Flag of Libya before 1969 (& maybe their new flag!) Böri (talk) 10:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I told you! ;) Böri (talk) 12:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Simple[edit]

Seems 99.9% of scholars outside of Turkey put the star crescent as a Byzantium symbol adopted (as all emperor titles of Byzantium were by the Sultan) by the ottomans in most probability. It seems most Turkish scholars debate this and talk about legends, dreams and the fact the Turks passed through certain nations that at some point in history used a crescent moon. Should therefore the article under the Byzantium section simply be split between 'Turkish ideas' - 'the rest of the World' rather than this bizarre backwards and forwards augmentative style..german scholar says this...however Turkish mp stated this....sewdish scientist wrote about this, however Turkish historian debates that.. looks like a group of football fans arguing on a bus..and is very un-encyclopedic. Finally, can someone please explain this flag for me? http://ib.frath.net/w/images/thumb/b/b1/Byzantine_flag2.png/200px-Byzantine_flag2.png

Reaper7 (talk) 00:00, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Byzantines vs. Ancient Turks[edit]

The implied options of "either the Turks brought the crescent-and-star from Asia, or they took it from the Byzantines" is completely flawed, considering the evidence. The Turks came out of Central Asia around the 10th century, spending 200 years in Persia before they reached Anatolia. They conquered Byzantium in 1453. The star and crescent flag first appears in 1793, yes, fully 800 years after they came from Asia, more than 300 years after they took Constantinople. It is ridiculous to suggest that they would have waited centuries before they were suddenly struck by the idea of, hey, how about we put this ancient symbol on a flag?

The fact is that adding the star to the crescent was a modern idea. The crescent, otoh, was widespread across the Maghreb even in 1400, and the Turks just went with this trend in flying yet another flag with a crescent. --dab (𒁳) 08:29, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think I see what is going on here. As so often when people switch to nationalist mode, there isn't even a coherent debate. Turkish historian: "crescent is ancient Türkic symbol". Nonpartisan historian: "yes, but we are discussing the star-and crescent. There were crescents all over the place since 1300 or so. What about the star". Turkish historian: "Osman had a dream about a crescent. We found an ancient coin with a crescent. The crescent is ancient Türkic symbol". Rinse, repeat. --dab (𒁳) 08:42, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So what's "your theory" regarding the Gokturk coin ([1]) which dates back to 570 or 600, according to Uzbek historian Gaybullah Babayar? Note that even a partisan historian is more reliable than an ordinary Wikipedia admin, unless that admin shows a reference. Kavas (talk) 13:01, 24 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First off, that (possibly) Göktürk coin does not show an unquestionable star and crescent. It shows *three* crescents, each of which is associated with a dot. And if we're actually going to start introducing reality into the discussion we'll have to bring up the role of Sogdians in this context. Of course Sogdians were a people who spoke an Indo-European language related to Persian, and their cultural links with Persian peoples have been explored to a considerable extent. As the material I added to this article makes clear there is strong evidence for associating the star AND crescent with Iran. Needless to say Turks have preserved many, many cultural borrowings from Iranian cultural spheres. After all, Turks call a "king" a "kral" and when they want vegetables they ask for "sebze". --Picatrix (talk) 23:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nepal, Hinduism, etc.[edit]

The star and crescent moon are very common symbols in Hinduism, being, in writing, a diacritic representing nazalization and in philosophy and/or cosmology representing the primordial sound "Om" or "Aum". The history of how these two things are related is unknown to me, but what is sure is that it is an instantly recognizable symbol to hundreds of millions of Hindus through out the world, yet this is not mentioned in this article. It also figures on the Nepalese flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.222.95 (talk) 20:07, 26 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Gokturks coin.png Nominated for speedy Deletion[edit]

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Use in the Ottoman Empire[edit]

The coa of "Illyria" is inserted rather misleadingly in the above-mentioned section. Its not a symbol used officially by the Ottoman Empire, nor was it "used" at all in the Ottoman Empire for that matter. Its a symbol of a fictitious entity "Illyria", one that was imagined to be separate from the Ottoman Empire, and also encompassing territories outside the Ottoman Empire. There is no reason to conclude it has anything to do with the Ottomans or Islam in general - as the Ottoman Empire used a completely different flag at that time and did not yet introduce the white star-and-crescent on red motif.

Either we can make all this clear in the image description, or we can move it from the section. I can't see it staying that way, though. -- Director (talk)

Byzantium[edit]

Doesn't the star-and-crescent originate as the symbol of Byzantium, i.e. the old Greek city? The symbol was taken by Byzantium after they won a night battle against Philip II of Macedon. The city retained that symbol even after it was re-founded as Constantinople by Constantine the Great, with the star eventually being associated with the Virgin Mary. It passed into Islamic use only after the Fall of Constantinople in 1453, when Mehmed the Conqueror took it as its own symbol, complete with the gold-on-red colour scheme of Byzantium (the Sultan was very much into all things classical, e.g. he proclaimed himself Caesar, was fluent in Greek, tried to "reunite the Roman Empire" by taking Rome as well, etc). By the 15th century the "Roman Empire" (Byzantine Empire) had long been confined to the city of Constantinople itself, hence the contemporary perception of the city's flag as the symbol of the Empire itself. After Selim I conquered Egypt and the remnants of the Abbasid Caliphate (that fled there post the Mongol invasion of Baghdad), he took the title of Caliph for himself, and replaced the Abbasid dynastic symbol on the green flag of the Caliph with his own - the crescent-moon-and-star. Hence the crescent and star on the green field... -- Director (talk) 08:38, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to have some kind of references.

Don't be fooled by excessively precise filenames like "Flag of the Ottoman Caliphate (1793–1844)" on commons -- people can upload anything they like under any name they like, unless they also provide a solid reference, this means nothing. --dab (𒁳) 10:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I got that from a video lecture by Kenneth W. Harl. Its accurate alright, not sure we can cite the source in that form, though.

During 339-340 BC, the polis of Byzantion was at war with Phillip II of Macedon, who besieged the city (see Rise of Macedon#Byzantion). The Byzantines repulsed the final nighttime assault on their walls under a crescent moon, and successfully withstood the siege. Thenceforward they took the crescent moon as their symbol. This is known to have been retained throughout the Roman and Byzantine periods, continuing on after the city's refounding as Constantinople. By the time the Turks took the city, the crescent was often perceived as the symbol of the Roman Empire (the Empire having been essentially confined to the city for some 200 years and more). Consequently, the Turkish sultans took it as their symbol. Early on they rather fancied themselves (successors of) Roman emperors, even taking the title "Caesar" etc..

In short, the crescent is today the unofficial symbol of Islam because of its perception as the symbol of the Roman Empire. Gold on red are Imperial colours.. -- Director (talk) 11:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What about the time between 300 and 1800?[edit]

The article has a huge problem, as it glosses over the millennium and a half between its "Hellenistic and Roman" materials and the Ottoman stuff. There is a weak "Middle Ages" section which goes on about use of the crescent alone but has nothing on the star-and-crescent. The Ottomans introduced the star-and-crescent flag in around 1800 (some sources say "1793"), and we have no evidence of any Ottoman star-and-crescent prior to that. So naturally there is a problem of continuity. People do not randomly revive insignia after 15 centuries, if there is no use of the symbol during that time, its reemergence must be considered an original innovation. But there is a single 14th c. manuscript image which shows a star and crescent on a Mamluk flag, so perhaps there is some kind of medieval tradition? --dab (𒁳) 10:33, 24 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could the Crescent be an Eclipse or Gorget?[edit]

Shouldn't it be called the Star and Eclipse?[edit]

The border dividing light from dark is not a circular curve, but elliptical. I've noticed the current popular form of the "Star and Crescent," and commonly drawn crescents, is that it is drawn like a smaller body occulting, or eclipsing, a larger one off-center. The border dividing light from dark actually follows an elliptical path if projected onto the plane ortho-normal to the viewer's line-of-sight. LucianSolaris (talk) 19:34, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a depiction of a celestial event, it's a combination of two heraldic symbols. --dab (𒁳) 14:00, 25 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just by looking at the star and crescent I was always thrown by incorrect geometry of the crescent and the star often placed inside the moon circle. The illustrations of the crescent almost never match the geometry of of a partially lit moon as the image of LucianSolaris illustrates. It does match a partially eclipsed sun (or moon). In the modern depiction, as in the flag of Turkey, the 'star' could be seen as the diamond ring effect at the end of a Solar eclipse. How beautiful would it be if this was the real, forgotten, origin of the star and crescent. But I'm afraid there is no historical ground for that. On the contrary... Renetus (talk) 15 December 2017 (UTC)

"Crescent" or "Gorget"[edit]

I see reference to this always being a crescent moon, but on most of the coats of arms, which it references, that is a gorget, not a moon. Especially since it used to always be on the bottom of the flag, is there and source that actually says this is a moon? Scalga (talk) 17:37, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

well, this is an interesting question, but one of history not of terminology. Note that the Heart (heraldic charge) is also, in origin, not so much a heart than a water-lily leaf. We know this, and we still just call it a "heart" because that's how it is now known.

but, upon reviewing the evidence, I still think the classical "star and crescent" depicts exactly that, a star and a crescent moon; whatever its ANE origins, it was eventually used as a symbol of Artemis/Hecate and so became a symbol of Byzantium. --dab (𒁳) 13:50, 15 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I see the symbol you are referencing and understand how people change what they are calling them. If that is a moon on the coin, though, why is it on the bottom faced like a gorget? That is my question. What says that was a moon?Scalga (talk) 16:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Recent organised vandalism attack on the article: Removal of any mention to Turkic heritage.[edit]

The user Dbachmann reverted the article to its version one year ago. Exactly one year ago I started to contribute this article. For me it was bizarre, there is no mention in the article use by Turkic people, so I tried to improve the article by creating a new category as "Use by Turkic people". Almost 90% Turkic states and territories use the symbol in their flags or coat of arms. But there was no mention of them in the article. I've added changes to include why it was important in the Tengrism. Crescent represents the moon god (Ay Ata), and the star represents the sun goddess (Gun Ana). I've added scientific proof of how Turkic peoples were using star and crescent before Islam as their symbol.

If you look at history, I completed this changes between the period of 24-29 December 2014. The new format I've presented was widely accepted by the community. Over the past year there was 103 changes by dozens of editors to the file. Some people improved my grammar in the Turkic part, some people added more sources.

Then out of nowhere almost one year later user Dbachmann, without dismissed all the changes happened in the past year, and reverted the page to it's version on 23-12-2014 claiming "unnoted vandalism". (I've inspected all the changes committed by the mention user. Whenever some one added a source here mentioning the use by Turkic people he removed the changes immediately or after a period of time. ) I of course, went ahead and reverted the changes done by him, and refer him to the talk page. But then another user popped up named Kafka Liz and he said Dbachmann has every right to this change, and reverted the page again. Then Thomas.W involved and reverted the page saying "giving undue prominence to Turkish/Turkic".

I tried to approach to them via my talk page; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Siğilli_Kurbağa

But I'm a single person with a very limited of time against whole the wave of Turkophobia.

The discussion on my talk page is quite particular. User Thomas.W said this "The material you're edit-warring over puts too much emphasis on Turkish/Turkic use of the star and crescent".

Almost all of the Turkic states, Turkic council, Turkic organisations accepting star and crescent as their symbol since the Tengrism era, but now it is not even mentioned in the article. But now there is a part for Mughal Empire, part of Persia, part of Roman empire.

I am requesting from the community for the sake of neutrality and quality of the article, Dbachmann edits should be reverted.

Siğilli Kurbağa (talk) 16:42, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your contribution to the "quality of the article" will begin by citing these publications by "Almost all of the Turkic states, Turkic council, Turkic organisations". I assume these publications date to the 20th century, not to the "Tengrism era". So you are welcome to create a section dedicated to the status of the symbol in 20th-century Turkish nationalism. Of course, if you have any actual scholarly references on the motif being found in Central Asia in antiquity, you would also be welcome to provide those. I have done quite an exhaustive search on this now, and came up with nothing. So you are certainly invited to help out. --dab (𒁳) 18:06, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Middle Ages and Renaissance[edit]

Hi, there is contradictory information here. The use of the crescent (without the star) can even be seen in 13th century European manuscripts, see the depictions under Moors. Someone needs to fix this contradiction. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.74.186.109 (talk) 06:23, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References

Star-and-crescent vs. "a star and a crescent"[edit]

There is obviously a connection, but we need to distinguish the depiction of a crescent somewhere in an image, and a star somewhere else in the same image, perhaps arranged symmetrically on each side or something, from the actual, unified crescent-and-star (star-within-crescent) symbol.

Afacis, all examples predating the 2nd century BC are of the former type. If this is true, it would be fair to say that the symbol, as a single symbol as opposed to a juxtaposition of two symbols, originates then. This is without denying, of course, that the combination of the two symbols is based on earlier traditions placing them side by side. --dab (𒁳) 11:02, 8 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Now that I found evidence in Achaemenid seals[2] it seems clear that there is a continuous tradition connecting the iconography of "Sun and Moon hovering over a king's head" from Babylonian boundary stones to Parthian coins. The locus of the invention of the "star inside crescent" emblem seems to be the sphere of Greek-Anatolian-Zoroastrian syncretism in 2nd cetury BC Pontus/Bosporus. It seems fair to say that the symbol has origins going back to the ANE but in its familiar form was an innovation of that era. The history of the "star inside crescent" symbol is very difficult to trace. It sees (literally) marginal use in Sassanid coins, and it enjoys some prominence in Roman coins, but only until Christianisation. How it made its way into Crusader-era seals and heraldry isn't clear at all, there being a gap of at least half a millennium. --dab (𒁳) 11:47, 10 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

This page uses "star within crescent". The distinction is clearly relevant in numismatics, as some coins have "a star and a crescent" while others have the "star-within-crescent". --dab (𒁳) 13:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Earliest use in Persia or Pontus?[edit]

Here they mention the "star-in-crescent symbol of the Achaemenids". This would be very relevant, as it would establish the symbol as Zoroastrian, and might also open the possibility for a continuity to the very rare star-within-crescent symbols in pre-Acheaemenid Babylon (I have found only one of these so far, the one on the Nippur kudurru).

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find any Achaemenid examples of the symbol. The oldest one I could find other than the Nippur one would be the coin of Mithridates (1st century BC). It is easily possible that there are Parthian coins with the symbol of about the same age but so far I haven't seen any. But not a single example predating the 2nd century BC yet, so an Achaemenid specimen would be very welcome. --dab (𒁳) 14:17, 20 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Open questions:

evidence for Achaemenid use
referenced interpretations on Zoroastrian meaning of the emblem
referenced opinions to the symbol representing "the orient" in the Crusader era (e.g. use on Crusader's seals to indicate dominions in the east)
referenced interpretations or opinions on the 90-degree turn of the symbol in the Ottoman flag (when Ottoman flags are suspended vertically, the horns of the crescent even point downward)
referenced information on the contemporary status as "Islamic symbol" (outside of online clipart) -- apparently some booklet (year unknown, cited on fotw in 1997[3]) said "The crescent is symbolic of the beginning of the lunar month according to the Muslim calendar. It brings back to our minds the story of Hijra". It seems this is the best Wikipedia can do so far to present any official endorsement by any Muslim authority as to an Islamic interpretation of the crescent (not star-and-crescent). It begins to look to me as if the "Islamic" interpretation is almost entirely confined to Western pop culture.

--dab (𒁳) 12:32, 21 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

References[edit]

As should be evident from the edit history, I spent a lot of time cleaning out and/or researching anything that was unreferenced in the article. I do think that all content is now referenced satisfactorily, relative to the usual project standards. Please respect WP:CITE, I do not wish to see the article deteriorate into an unreferenced mess of random additions once again. You are welcome to add relevant material, of course, but please make sure to provide references of reasonable quality for all additions.

Saying "File:Flag of Independent Bosnia (1878).svg is the flag of Indenpendent Bosnian in 1878" is not acceptable just because this happens to be the filename of this image on commons. I am happy to accept that this is indeed a flag attested in Bosnia in 1878, but this does not excuse you from providing a reference if you want to include this fact. --dab (𒁳) 12:34, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Tag about outhouses[edit]

I have removed the following tendentious tag from the top of the article:

I have heard of crescent-shaped windows at the top of outhouse doors (likely symbolizing the moon), but not of the use of the full star-and-crescent symbol in connection with outhouses. The association of an Islamic political and religious symbol with outhouses frankly smacks of Islamophobia. Despite this overtone, if in fact the association of the symbol with outhouses in the USA can be sourced, it should be included—but not without sourcing. Even if it can be sourced, it should be included only with scrupulous care to avoid Islamophobic implications.

In any case, under no circumstances does this tendentious association deserve mention in a tag at the top of the article. Please do not replace the tag under any circumstances, and please do not include in the article any statements about the association without meticulous sourcing and scrupulous avoidance of Islamophobic overtones.

—Syrenka V (talk) 19:22, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

Coin of Phraates V of Parthia.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Irish Pennies, Halfpence, Farthings, of King John of England[edit]

...these employ the star and crescent on the reverse. Also one could speak of the initial marks or mintmarks on the transitional recoinage pennies of Henry III starting in 1247, one of which at least uses the Star and Crescent. (mint mark #1 referenced with Spink-1358 thru Spink-1360 on p.160 of the 49th edition of the Standard Catalogue of British Coins (SCBC) (Spink, 2014) ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.35.32.95 (talk) 05:35, 26 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One wonders what possible link this might have with the Seal of Richard I (displayed elsewhere in this article) that his younger brother and then later his nephew used similar iconography on their coins.

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Kokbayraq flag.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:55, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

New subsection titled "Western Turkic Khaganate"[edit]

@Beshogur: Your edit summary (diff) doesn't make sense. You wrote, you wouldn't put if there was such sentence? Probably you meant to write, you wouldn't add the new content if there wasn't a relevant source to back it up. Regardless, you created a new subsection titled "Western Turkic Khaganate", and included the following text under it:

Western Turkic coins had a crescent moon and a star, which held an important place in the worldview of ancient Turks and other peoples of Central Asia.

You cited the article Byzantine impact on the iconography of western Turkic coinage (2013) by Gaybulla Babayarov and Andrey Kubatin; specifically, page 51. I have full access to that article; you can see the aforementioned page here. It doesn't mention anything about the "star and crescent" symbol. Please, explain to me what you found wrong in my edit summary (diff), and why you reverted me. Demetrios1993 (talk) 22:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Demetrios1993: [4] here you go. Perhaps you found an older version idk. Beshogur (talk) 22:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Beshogur: Ok, i see what's going on. The version you shared above is not the actual final version that was published in the Acta Orientalia Academiae Scientiarum Hungaricae journal; looks like a pre-print/pre-proof. Regardless, the relevant quote can also be found in the final version (page 52, not 51), and thus the new content you added can stay. However, i will have to update the reference with the correct page number and add a URL to the final version; also, the article wasn't published in a book, but a journal, and thus Template:Cite journal is the proper template for this reference. I will also add a wikilink to Western Turkic Khaganate. Demetrios1993 (talk) 00:38, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your research. Cheers. Beshogur (talk) 01:39, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A flag of somewhere that does not exist[edit]

Why, in the national flags section, is there something called 'northern cyprus', a place that does not legally exist internationally? The land belongs to the Cypriot country of Cyprus, not the Turk occupation. This inclusion seems to be nasty bias. If included in the article it should have a separate section, such as Fantasy Flags, or Spurious Flags, etc. Middle More Rider (talk) 12:26, 10 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Disc and Crescent of the pre-Christian Aksumites[edit]

The pre-Christian Kingdom of Aksum, as well as their predecessor the Kingdom of Dʿmt used a disc and crescent symbol for their religion. Does that belong on this page? For examples of the symbol, Hawulti Stelae, the coins of Aphilas at the 12 o'clock position are examples I can find without leaving Wikipedia. -- RoidingOldMan (talk) 19:47, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttp://www.san.beck.org/2-9-MughalEmpire1526-1707.html

[2] ttp://www.san.beck.org/2-9-MughalEmpire1526-1707.html

[1]

[2]