Talk:Someone like You (Van Morrison song)

Article title

I changed the title to "Someone Like You (Van Morrison song)", but User:Philg88 changed it back here with the edit summary "Requested at WP:RM as uncontroversial". To my mind, the lower case l looks like a mistake. The same goes for the other 15 examples which can be found at the disambiguation page Someone like You, although note we do have Someone Like You (collection) and Somebody Like You. Why do we have this title for this article, when all 13 instances in the article body are "Someone Like You". Of course, we can't use the styling as used on the single cover, as it's all lower case. But, yet again, this seems to be a case of the prescriptive style rules of Wiki-land flying in the face of normal usage in the real world. Yes, I know "like" is an adjective here, but to my eye this looks Like a very amateurish mistake. Would you really expect a book title to appear as Someone like You? I think this is a case of blind adherence to a ridiculous style rule that makes the article titles look amateurish. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: I have no dog in this hunt. I moved it per this request at uncontroversial technical moves because there was a typo in the title. If you have a problem with the capitalisation I suggest that you discuss it with the move requester, Niceguyedc.  Philg88 ^♦talk 16:20, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Just doing your job, I guess. Depends what you means by "typo". I didn't change it just to introduce a typo. Do you think "like" is a preposition or an adjective here? Let's see if User:Dl2000 would like to respond here. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:24, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

What was meant by typo was that the article move used the rather unusual word "lLke" in the title. Needless to say, his doesn't seem to be supported by reliable sources, nor did it doesn't show up in the Wiktionary. Thus that article move was either an accidental typo (in WP:AGF terms) or something more cheeky and perhaps vandalistic (in WP:ABF terms). If it was not possible to move the title to the intended spelling/caps, then the move should have been raised at WP:RM.

Looking into the conventions, WP:NCCAPS by default frowns on capitals for common prepositions, although subsections such as WP:NCCAPS#Works of art tends to grant some exceptions to this default e.g. based on reliable sources. However, WP:CT seems to be the most appropriate guideline which applies to modern song titles as referenced at WP:BANDNAME. Assuming "like" is a preposition of four letters or less per the Wiktionary def, then WP:CT indicates this should be lowercase as the title currently stands, without prejudice to creating appropriate inward redirects. The caps used on other articles may warrant a wider discussion at the appropriate music and naming convention talk pages, but for now that seems like WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Dl2000 (talk) 17:13, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I now see it was a typo. You didn't tell me, when you posted at my Talk Page, that you were going to made a redirect. That's why the typo was hidden when I looked back. But don't you see some kind of contradiction between the 13 uses of "Someone Like You" in the article body and "Someone like You" in the title? I think very many examples of the use of "Someone Like You" for this song can be easily found. How many do you need to be convinced that it's common usage for this (and many other) song titles? Or do I have to go over to Wikipedia:Citation templates, and/or at "the appropriate music and naming convention talk pages" to argue the case for changing? I certainly wouldn't be surprised to see all inward redirects favouring a capital L. I see there have been other proposals like this one where it was concluded "COMMONNAME only addresses the name itself, not how the name is stylized". This seems somehow anomalous. Also an unresolved discussion at Talk:Someone like You (Adele song). Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:50, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

As I have already pointed out on Martinevans123's talk page, Van Morrison's own website uses the version with 'like' capitalized (see [1]) As I also noted, on the subject of capitalization of words in titles of works, New Hart's Rules says: "Exactly which words should be capitalized in a particular title is a matter for individual judgement, which may take account of the sense, emphasis, structure, and length of the title. Thus a short title may look best with capitals on words that might be left lower case in a longer title." (2005 edn, page 133) For what it’s worth, WP:NCCAPS recommends Fowler’s Modern English Usage (3rd edn), which itself acknowledges its debt to, and generally follows, the rules set out in Hart's. JezGrove (talk) 19:43, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I see no reason why the convention on non-capitalisation of prepositions under 5 letters should be overturned here (as in the Someone like You (Adele song) case where I've already put in my twopence). I'm not sure what is amateurish here - it's not like it's in Comic Sans. As the rule exists, the onus is on someone to give a really good reason why it should be broken in these cases. Btljs (talk) 20:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes "the rule exists", but it's a rule that takes no heed of common title useage elsewhere. And if anyone can say if this word is being used as an adjective, as a conjunction, or as a preposition here, and explain why, it would be much appreciated. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:06, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the only results of a Google search for 'Someone like You' that come back without 'like' capitalized are the titles of Wikipedia articles! JezGrove (talk) 20:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

It's a preposition: "Preposition: like: Similar to, reminiscent of.  [quotations ▼]These hamburgers taste like leather." The equivalent title would be "Taste like Leather". On the common usage point: "Rolling in the Deep" is just as often styled as "Rolling In The Deep" as not, so are we going to abandon the rule here as well? That means choosing whether to capitalise 'The' or just 'In'. What is the counter-rule which allows us to break the original rule? Btljs (talk) 21:17, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation, not that it makes it look any better to me, nor makes a prescriptive rule based on parts of speech any more palatable, in my view. Sorry, but I have no view on "Rolling In The Deep". I'm just concerned with the "like" in this title, and numerous other similar article titles. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:29, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

I think the reason it looks odd is because "You" is shorter than "like". "Feel Like a Woman" looks odd to me, and I would push for a change if I could be bothered. But I don't think we can alter every title based on whether it looks a bit odd - we should have rules unless there is a good reason to break them. Btljs (talk) 21:52, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, I don't think such use looks at all odd to Shania, for example. And I think we should only have rules in the first place if they are based on something sensible, like common usage - not just because it's easy to say "all prepositions less than so many letters can never have a capital letter". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, having a noun shorter than a preposition, as we have here, seems to me a perfectly good reason to break a prescriptive and unjustified rule. Although it's probably better to adjust the rule. So, for those of us who can be bothered, I'd suggest opening an RfC here, or raising the matter at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization). Which would be more productive? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 11 February 2016 (UTC)