Talk:Somali people/Archive 7

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Sultan

Blocked sock Doug Weller talk 15:18, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It has been claimed that this file of an individual named Abdillahi Sultan Deria is notable, on the basis that he was apparently a clan leader and led what was claimed to be a cross-clan diplomatic representation. However, a Google search on the individual only seems to turn up a few forum posts and blogs, as well as a link indicating that he was part of an SNL delegation to the United Nations, which was led instead by another individual [1]. This fails WP:BURDEN. Soupforone (talk) 16:36, 9 February 2018 (UTC) Note that someone doesn't need to meet the notability requirements for a standalone article for an image of them or their name to appear in another article. However, the information does need to be verified, so I agree on that point. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:39, 9 February 2018 (UTC) I also agree on the point, Soupforone's edit seems the most sensible in this situation. CabuuwaaqWanaag (talk) 16:42, 9 February 2018 (UTC) Actually, per WP:PERTINENCE, images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context rather than primarily decorative. Soupforone (talk) 16:49, 9 February 2018 (UTC) That's a different requirement to notability, as that term is used on Wikipedia, though. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:54, 9 February 2018 (UTC) As stated by both Koodbuur and Cordless Larry, there is no requirement for a standalone article for the inclusion in this section. Sultan Abdullahi Sultan Deria, along with Sultan Abdurahman Sultan Deria represented the people of British Somaliland Protectorate and traveled to meet both the British Government in London, as well as the United Nations in New York. The letter below from the British Acting Commissioner for Native Affairs states: THE SECRETARIAT, HARGEISA, SOMALILAND PROTECTORATE, 1955. To Whom It May Concernt The undermentioned gentlemen have informed me that they are travelling to London for tho purpose of raising certain points in connection with a number of Treaties entered into at various dates in the last century between the British Government and certain Somali tribes:- 1. Sultan Abdurahman Sultan Deria. 2. Sultan Abdullahi Sultan Deria, and two interpreters. This certifies that these gentlemen have been chosen in open assembly of representatives of the people of Somaliland Protectorate and I am satisfied that they are therefore entitled under Somali custom to speak for the people affected by the said Treaties. SIGNED K.M. WALMSLEY, ACTING COMMISSIONER FOR NATIVE AFFAIRS. [2] Their arrival is documented as a "delegation representing the 650,000 inhabitants of the Somali Protectorate" [3] (650,000 referring to the total population of British Somaliland [4]). Regarding Soupforone's argument for WP:PERTINENCE, could you please explain how your addition of a photograph to this article [5] today was "significant and relevant in the topic's context rather than primarily decorative"? --Kzl55 (talk) 17:47, 9 February 2018 (UTC) It is clear that the Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria addition is verifiable as per sources provided by Kzl55. I would like to reiterate the point I mentioned in the edit summary that not having a Wikipedia article does not automatically mean the person is not notable. I would also like to reiterate that diversity and inclusivity are of utmost importance in ensuring that this article is fair and balanced as per WP:NPOV. Koodbuur (talk) 04:53, 10 February 2018 (UTC) WP:BLP allows images of individuals in their wikibios. Its primary restriction is that "images of living persons should not be used out of context to present a person in a false or disparaging light", which the other file does not do anyway. As regards Deria, you suggested that he led the diplomatic delegation, but the quote above only indicates (like I did) that he was just a part of it. This is apparently because the British Somaliland delegation was actually led by one Mr. Mariano and the Ogaden delegation by Sultan Bihim Momeen [6]. If a Minister is part of an official delegation abroad led by a President, that doesn't mean that Minister is on par with the President and other heads of state. Anyway, for the sake of argument, perhaps it's okay to include this ruler alongside the other more established sultans. Soupforone (talk) 05:59, 10 February 2018 (UTC) I have asked you how your addition of a photograph here yesterday was "significant and relevant in the topic's context rather than primarily decorative", which is the point you made above. It is clearly neither significant nor relevant, especially with the article already having a portrait of the politician. As for the matter at hand, please reread my post above as well as the description attached to the Sultan Abdillahi photograph, I did not suggest that the Sultan led the diplomatic delegation, in fact the description added to the article states "Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria, a prominent Sultan of British Somaliland who was part of the delegation sent from Somaliland to the British government in London and also....". No where does it claim he led the delegation. The official document by the British Commissioner for Native Affairs explicitly states they represented the population of Somaliland, thus verifiable and not does not fail WP:BURDEN (original contention). I hope that settles it. I agree with the point raised above by Koodbuur regarding balance, objectivity and inclusivity of the section being very important. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC) One additional point regarding the photograph you cropped and uploaded today to Commons [7], the summary states the author is the British Colonial Office (no evidence of that is provided). This is inaccurate, as per your post above [8] the photograph was taken AT the colonial office, not BY the colonial office. Furthermore, the source you cited states Sultan Abdilahi Sultan Deria led the meeting [9]. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC) I don't see how the one portrait of the smiling politician is any less significant or relevant to his wikibio than the other portrait of the same smiling politician. You wrote that some clothing he was wearing was not representative of the politician, but WP:BLP's actual threshold is whether the individual is presented "in a false or disparaging light", which obviously neither smiling file does. As regards the sultan file/template, in an edit summary you asserted that the "Sultan was chosen to rep. all people of protectorate (including Warsangali) in London and New York". However, the text above doesn't indicate that. It just stipulates that he was part of the British Somaliland/Somaliland Protectorate's delegation in London. Sultan Bihi apparently was too, but the delegation was led by Mariano [10]. Also, I didn't actually obtain the photograph of Sultan Bihi and Mariano from the Qorilugudnews blog post that you link to above; I instead linked directly to the jpg. A Google translation of the blog text doesn't indicate that Deria/Diriye led the British Somaliland delegation [11]. Further, the Mariano-led delegation was apparently an NUF mission, whose membership included Ogaden Somalis [12]. There is therefore no valid reason to favor Sultan Deria over Sultan Bihi on the basis of clan - they were both part of the NUF delegations to London and New York, which Mariano led. Also, please note that there is no actual Wikipedia policy indicating that clan representation must be followed. This is just a courtesy rather than a necessity. Soupforone (talk) 18:05, 10 February 2018 (UTC) We are not discussing my edit summary, which clearly was not your point of contention as that specific summary was added after you've already removed Sultan Abdillahi's picture twice [13], [14]. Your original contention was that the inclusion fails WP:BURDEN [15], and I have cited above official document by the British Commissioner for Native Affairs explicitly stating they represented the population of Somaliland. This is inline with the actual description added to the article that the Sultan was "part of the delegation", no where did I make the claim he led it. Thus addition is verifiable and does satisfy WP:BURDEN (per your contention). We have no information from a verifiable reputable source of Bihi other than the clipping you uploaded (please refrain from using self-published/user-generated sources such as Wardheernews per WP:RSSELF, WP:UGC). The source you cited in your upload today [16] links to a jpg found on Qorilugudnews, the jpg you linked to has the exact same url as the one embedded [17] indicating it was the source. As for Google translation, you can try this link [18] which was taken from your source, the translation reads "The meeting was chaired by Suldan Abdillahi Suldan Diiriye". On your point regarding representation, please read WP:NPOV, specifically the opening which states "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". The section in question deals with history of Somalis, and it should be representative of all Somalis and not any single group. Saying that representation is a matter of courtasy is problematic as per WP:UNDUE and not encyclopedic. Lastly, my question to you regarding the politician's portrait relates to the point you tried to make above, specifically your statement that "per WP:PERTINENCE, images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context rather than primarily decorative". The portrait you added in this edit was neither significant nor relevent, especially when the article already had a portrait present. How was adding a second one important to the article? --Kzl55 (talk) 20:15, 10 February 2018 (UTC) As regards the Qorilugudnews blog post, I never linked to it. I linked instead to a jpg that is hosted on the Qorilugudnews website's servers [19], among various other media outlet servers (ex. [20]). If the translation url above is correct, that blog post is also mistaken about Deria leading the 1955 London delegation conference. The other book you linked to points out that it was actually led by Mariano [21] ("A delegation consisting of Sultan 'Abdillaahi ('Iidagalle), Sultan 'Abdarahiim (Habar Awal), Mr. Dube 'Ali Mahammad (Habar Tol Ja'lo) and led by Mr. Michael Mariano (Habar Tol Ja'lo) visited England in February 1955[...] A second delegation consisting of Mr Mariano and Sultan Bihi (Ogaadeen)[...] visited England in September of 1956 to discuss the Haud and Reserved Areas again with the British Colonial Secretary before proceeding to New York"). Soupforone (talk) 05:02, 11 February 2018 (UTC) Please note I have mentioned Qorilugudnews as it was the source you cited yourself in the upload. You have linked to a jpg that was originally uploaded as part of that post. Please also note, and I am repeating the point, we are not discussing who led the delegation, no one claimed Sultan Abdillahi led the delegation. We have official documents from the British Commissioner for Native Affairs explicitly stating they represented the population of British Somaliland Protectorate, that much is clear. Also note that per your source Bihi is described as a refugee from Ethiopia ("A second delegation consisting of Mr Mariano and Sultan Bihi (Ogaadeen) a refugee from Ethiopia..."). --Kzl55 (talk) 07:17, 11 February 2018 (UTC) With regard to the sultans, I made several edit summary points, all but the first of which were responses to your varying edit summary points. My first point was actually that Sultan Shire "belongs to completely separate sultanate from other rulers", and that the "other leader is tribal chief without wikipage, not leader of an actual sultanate" [22]. CabuuwaaqWanaag pointed out the same thing [23]. After some to and fro, I asked for proof of cross-clan diplomatic representation on Deria's part per WP:BURDEN. You then quoted and linked to a letter from the British Acting Commissioner for Native Affairs. My reply above to that post was that "for the sake of argument, perhaps it's okay to include this ruler alongside the other more established sultans", and neither I nor CabuuwaaqWanaag thereafter removed the file since we were satisfied with the text & url you had linked to. The only question left is why do you keep removing the other sultans? What Wikipedia policy recommends this? Certainly not WP:NPOV, which doesn't even mention the word "clan" much less "clan representation". That policy pertains instead to views held by reliable sources, not by Wikipedians. There's no reliable source arguing that the other sultans are irrelevant just because they are from clans x, y or z. Soupforone (talk) 05:02, 11 February 2018 (UTC) We have already gone over your point regarding the lack of a Wikipedia article as pointed out by both Cordless Larry and Koodbuur, the lack of an article does not exclude anyone from addition to the section. Again, we are not discussing edit summaries here, your original contention in this talk page was that the inclusion fails wp:burden [24]. I have provided citation from official British records and thus reinstated the addition. You have then made the unilateral decision to lump all the photos together, which was not helpful. I have restored the Sultan Bihi addition because verifiable citation from reliable sources was provided to remedie the contention as per your first post as well as Cordless Larry's first comment [25]. As for the removal of the Warsangali Sultan, Sultan Abdillahi was chosen to represent all of British Somaliland protectorate, that includes the Warsangali, hence more appropriate for the section. Also note, the Warsangali Sultan you kept including represented only 20,000 people of the total population of 640,000 (or 3.1%). There is also the issue of representation and neutrality, the section already includes a photograph of Ali Kenadid, him and the Warsangali Sultan belong to the same group. This section should represent the history of all Somalis and not just one group. Which is why I also included Mahmoud Harbi who was a leading Somali figure from French Somaliland [26]. This should satisfy both WP:UNDUE as well as WP:NPOV (and no, you do not need to have the word clan explicitly mentioned in WP:NPOV to apply in this situation). --Kzl55 (talk) 07:17, 11 February 2018 (UTC) Well, your comment above on what you believed was my original point linked to edit summaries, not to my original talk page post. Hence, that is what I addressed. Anyway, it is incorrect to claim that the tribal leader Deria regularly represented more people than Sultan Shire. That 20,000 figure you linked to just indicates the number of Warsangali inhabitants of the Somaliland Protectorate - it doesn't stipulate anything about Shire [27]. It would be odd if it had since, according to Shire's official website, his reign as Sultan ended in 1960, a few years before that population estimate. On the other hand, the Acting Commissioner for Native Affairs letter above indicates that Deria was chosen as a representative of the Somaliland Protectorate's residents specifically for the purpose of the 1955 London delegation. It does not indicate that he represented the territory's residents for any other purpose or time period. That is an ad hoc diplomatic representation. It is obviously not a permanent cross-clan representation since the other clans already had their own respective tribal leaders. WP:NPOV and its WP:UNDUE clause pertain to "significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources". Per those policies, appropriate representation works "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources", and "giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects." Yet, a Google search produces few reliable sources on Deria, and the handful that exist are almost invariably on that one 1955 delegation that he was a part of but which was actually led by Mariano. By contrast, there are plenty of reliable sources on the sultans Shire and Kenadid. This establishes that they have a much greater prominence as sultans in the published reliable literature, and therefore should be accorded a greater representation per WP:NPOV/WP:UNDUE. Soupforone (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC) Your contention on this talk page was based on wp:burden [28]. Cordless Larry seconded this particular point (of providing sources for verification) [29]. This contention was remedied by evidence from official British documents confirming the Sultan was representing the people of Somaliland [30]. The Warsangali Sultan you keep including was an elder of his clan (the Warsangali), numbering 20,000 people of the total population of British Somaliland which was 640,000 (or 3.1%) [31], they made up the smallest community in the Protectorate (jointly). If by Shire's official site you are referring to Warsangeli.com, please note it is a self-published site and you have been asked to stop using it repeatedly per WP guidelines [32], [33], at any rate your point (of when he died) has no relation to the size of his community. It is incorrect to claim Sultan Abdillahi represented the people of British Somaliland Protectorate in this one occasion only, here is an example of a separate occasion where he represented the population of British Somaliland Protectorate ("Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria, and Sultan Mohamed Sultan Farah - Representing British Somaliland") [34]. I hope this settles the issue. With regards to your stance on representation, I am in agreement with Koodbuur. The section relates to the history of Somalis, it is important for an encyclopaedic article to be inclusive of all Somalis and not only highlight members of any one group. This is in line with WP policies WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE as well as the general purpose and spirit of the English Wikipedia. Stating that representation is a matter of "courtesy rather than a necessity" is very problematic and may be confused with bias. Other actions such as insistence on the addition of unsourced titles such as "Sultan of Sultans", "26th Sultan of the Warsangali Sultanate", "Sovereign of the House of North East of Somalia Sultanate" (and other unsourced content) [35], [36], [37], [38], [39] to the WP article of the same tribal elder you are attempting to reinstate to the section, despite repeated warnings, are also problematic. @Cordless Larry and Koodbuur: any opinion on this? Namely the issue pertaining to the main contention in the first post of this discussion (regarding wp:burden and whether or not the sources provided, including official document by the British Commissioner for Native Affairs explicitly stating representation of the population of Somaliland (full letter above, source [40]) as well as source stating "delegation representing the 650,000 inhabitants of the Somali Protectorate" (i.e. the total population of the Protectorate) [41] as well as that of representation? --Kzl55 (talk) 12:33, 12 February 2018 (UTC) I'm not completely sure whether I understand what I'm being asked here when it comes to verification, but on the point about the article featuring a diverse range of images intended to represent the population as broadly as possible, I agree that that is a good aim. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC) Apologies, perhaps I should have worded it clearer. Since the original contention was wp:burden and verification that Sultan Abdillahi did indeed represent the people of British Somaliland Protectorate, I was asking your opinion if the sources provided are sufficient to satisfy wp:burden. And yes, the page and section should be representative of Somalis as an ethnic group and not be concentrated around any single subgroup. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:13, 12 February 2018 (UTC) Actually, Sultan Shire's titles were sourced to Warsangeli.org [42]. That is indeed the official website of the Warsangali Sultanate, but it is maintained by ECOTERRA Intl. [43]. Even if the website had instead been maintained by the sultanate itself, WP:SELFPUB indicates that "self-published sources[...] may be used as sources of information about themselves" as long as "it does not involve claims about third parties", among a few other conditions. Soupforone (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC) A few points. Warsangali.org is a self-published site, using it here is against WP guidelines as per WP:SELFPUBLISH. The fact that it is supported by a charity [44] changes nothing about the self-published nature of the source. You are incorrect in your use of that particular policy, because although it indicates instances where self-published sources are usable (of which you quoted point no.2), you have ignored the first point which states ("Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources [...] so long as the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim"). You will find that all the titles you kept adding to the article such as "Sultan of Sultans", "26th Sultan of the Warsangali Sultanate", "Sovereign of the House of North East of Somalia Sultanate" were both unduly self-serving AND exceptional claims. In this situation we go by WP:EXCEPTIONAL which stipulates that ("Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources"). Particularly of interest are the first two points of the policy which describe red flags as ("apparently important claims not covered by multiple mainstream sources"), and ("challenged claims that are supported purely by primary or self-published sources or those with an apparent conflict of interest"). You are yet to provide multiple, high-quality sources for these exceptional claims. --Kzl55 (talk) 19:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC) As regards the sultan files/template, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE pertain to "significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources". Those policies don't indicate anything about clan representation. It is also a fact that the protectorate's 650,000 population figure has nothing to do with Sultan Shire since (a) it doesn't mention him, and more importantly (b) Sultan Shire died in 1960, a few years before that population estimate was published [45]. Further, that url you link to above is just a letter addressed to the UN, which Deria signed in his capacity as a sultan from the Somaliland Protectorate along with various other traditional leaders and politicians. It is not a diplomatic delegation nor does it have any legal binding, unlike the protectorate treaty that Sultan Shire signed in 1886 with the British Empire [46]. By any objective measure, the latter actual legal treaty is far more significant than just taking part once in an unsuccessful delegation led by another party. If Deria is therefore pertinent, Shire certainly is. Anyway, I've asked the experience moderator Doug Weller to explain here how WP:NPOV/WP:UNDUE works with regard to ethnic groups. Soupforone (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC) I am afraid you are inaccurate on a number of points: You stated that the protectorate's 650,000 population figure has nothing to do with Sultan Shire since it doesnt mention him. This is inaccurate because although the population figures do not explicitly name the Sultan, it explicitly states the population figure of the clan for which he was a Sultan, namely the Warsangali, who comprised 20,000 people of the total population of 640,000 (or 3.1% of the population of British Somaliland Protectorate) [47]. If we are talking about representation, it is important to stress that he was a tribal elder representing only 3.1% of the total population of British Somaliland. This is very important. You stated the Sultan died in 1960, a few years before the population estimate was published. This is incorrect. The publication date of the population figures is 1951 [48], well before his death. You suggested that the source I linked to earlier ([49]) providing additional examples of representation of the people of the Protectorate is somehow unimportant. If you look at the citation provided you will see that the Sultan (Abdillahi) was one of two Sultans that represented British Somaliland Protectorate. The other traditional leaders you referenced were from other Somali speaking regions (be it Somalia, NFD, Ethiopia, Djibouti), only two Sultans represented British Somaliland Protectorate, one of which was Sultan Abdillahi. You stated that Sultan Shire signed a treaty with the British Empire. This is inaccurate. The treaty was officially signed by "the Elders of the Warsangali Tribe" (per your source [50]), you can find a list of all 13 other elders of that clan on the same page. Additionally, the British signed treaties with all clans of the British Protectorate [51], all of these clans being larger than Warsangali. It is especially important to stress the Warsangali tribal elders only represented their clan in signing the treaty (just like all other clan elders were representative of their immediate clans). Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria represented all of the population of British Somaliland Protectorate in his London visit. Lastly, on the point of representation, I think it is fair to say that Koodbuur, Cordless Larry and myself all agree that the section should be representative of all Somalis, seeing that it is titled History of Somalis. Your point regarding representation being a matter of courtesy clearly goes against both Wikipedia policy and the spirit of Wikipedia as a project. --Kzl55 (talk) 19:20, 12 February 2018 (UTC) I'm not quite clear about what the WPUNDUE argument is about. WP:UNDUE is purely about sources. It applies to any content. Doug Weller talk 21:11, 12 February 2018 (UTC) Exactly. Per WP:NPOV, representation strictly pertains to prominence of significant views within actual reliable sources. It has nothing to do with whether sultan x should be noted instead of sultan y just because there may be fewer examples of his clan x represented on a wikipage than clan y. Soupforone (talk) 05:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC) The web address is actually Warsangeli.org. ECOTERRA Intl. actively maintains the website. It doesn't just support it ("this Web site is maintained by ECOTERRA Intl." [52]). I do agree, though, that the titles "Sultans of Sultans", etc. (which I did not originally add) are perhaps exceptional; probably because English was/is not the Sultanate's primary language. Anyway, the 650,000 population figure indeed doesn't have anything to do with the Sultan Shire. The original url you linked to above pointed to a work by I.M. Lewis; it did not point to that 2001 paper that you've linked to just now. Either way, neither url mentions Shire. Per WP:VER, "sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy." Further, the other url you linked to is just a letter noting that Sultan Deria and various other traditional leaders and politicians indicated that they were going to travel to London to discuss some points related to existing treaties ("the undermentioned gentleman have informed me that they are travelling to London for the purpose of raising certain points in connection with a number of Treaties entered into at various dates in the last century between the British Government and certain Somali tribes") [53]. This memo is not an example of representation on the same level as an actual diplomatic delegation, much less a legally binding treaty like the 1886 Warsangali treaty that in part established the protectorate. Soupforone (talk) 05:19, 13 February 2018 (UTC) I believe Kzl55 has provided the sources that satisfy the inclusion of Sultan Abdillahi in this page as per WP:BURDEN. As I've mentioned before, as per WP:NPOV it is imperative that diversity and inclusion is maintained on this article, as this article describes the entire Somali ethnic group and should not be limited to a certain family. Lastly, the inclusion of Sultan Abdillahi's trip to New York should be restored in this article, as this source [54] describes it. Koodbuur (talk) 15:17, 13 February 2018 (UTC) That article appears to mistaken. According to I.M. Lewis, the New York delegation included Michael Mariano (leader) and Sultan Bihi [55]. Soupforone (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2018 (UTC) The article should cover Somalis across the board. I don't even know why this is up for debate. Sultan Abduelahi's international representation is well sourced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SandMan25 (talk • contribs) 20:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC) Bbb23, could you please also remove the Deria file until this talkpage discussion has ended? The source url on the file's description page also doesn't seem to contain that file [56]. Soupforone (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2018 (UTC) Doug Weller, the situation is basically that Kzl55 would like to replace the original file of the Sultan Mohamoud Ali Shire [57] with that of the Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria [58]. His general rationale is that the Darod clan (arguably the largest overall clan, to which Shire belongs) is overrepresented, and so a file of a member of the Isaaq clan (the largest clan in the northwest, to which Deria belongs) should instead be shown. That is what he means above by WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. Koodbuur and SandMan25 have supported this rationale, Cordless Larry has not indicated which file he prefers, and I (and Cabuwaaqwanaag) have preferred the Shire file. My general rationale for this is that WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE actually indicate that they pertain to "significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources", and a Google search turns up more reliable sources on Sultan Shire [59] than on Sultan Deria [60]. Of the handful of sources on Sultan Deria that do exist, virtually all appear to be one or two line mentions to that effect that he, among a few other traditional leaders and politicians, was part of but did not lead a British Somaliland delegation to London in 1955 [61]. By contrast, Sultan Shire is an established historical figure, having been deported to the Seychelles and honored by Queen Elizabeth II upon his release [62] [63] [64]. He was also featured on the cover of History Today, one of the more prominent global history magazines [65]. Despite this, for the sake of compromise, I am okay with linking to both files, whereas the other party would apparently prefer just the Deria file. With the above considered, given your experience as a veteran moderator, could you please explain which scenario (Shire file, Deria file or both files) works best and is more inline with the actual WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE and WP:PERTINENT policies? Soupforone (talk) 05:47, 14 February 2018 (UTC) Just to note that CabuuwaaqWanaag is now blocked for sockpuppetry. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:11, 14 February 2018 (UTC) Sorry, I'd rather not get involved. RfC? But I'm not sure that's warranted. Doug Weller talk 14:35, 14 February 2018 (UTC) Soupforone, You have made the claim that Mr. Mariano led the British Somaliland delegation a number of times now. This is incorrect (though it is reported by some outlets as such), as per official British wording stating the role of the two politicians in the delegation as that of interpreters [66]. Also please note per your own source, plenty of residents of British Somaliland Protectorate were honoured by Queen Elizabeth II, this was not exclusive to Sultan Shire. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:00, 14 February 2018 (UTC) Actually, that Mariano led the British Somaliland delegation is per your I.M. Lewis url [67]. The Jama url above doesn't indicate anything to the contrary. It just mentions a letter wherein Sultan Deria and various other traditional leaders and politicians indicated that they were going to travel to London to discuss some points related to existing treaties ("the undermentioned gentleman have informed me that they are travelling to London for the purpose of raising certain points in connection with a number of Treaties entered into at various dates in the last century between the British Government and certain Somali tribes") [68]. Also, different honors were given to the residents. Sultan Shire was presented a Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE) [69]. Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Doug Weller, honestly I understand, given the mountains of text and all. Short, pithy explanations are instead recommended per WP:TPYES. Anyway, I don't have qualms with the Deria file remaining (although the source url on its file description page doesn't appear to actually contain the file). Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC) You are well aware this is not the source url as you have previously made an unsuccessful attempt to get the file deleted in which it was explained that the file was scanned [70].--Kzl55 (talk) 13:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC) If the Haldoornews website is not the file source, it does not belong in the file's description parameter.[71] Yet, there it is. Soupforone (talk) 17:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Kzl55's summary: The situation has arisen following the addition of two files, one belonging to Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria of British Somaliland Protectorate [72] (replacing that of Sultan Mohamoud Ali Shire) and politician Mahmoud Harbi of French Somaliland [73]. The rationale being that the section being about the history of Somalis as an ethnic group, should be representative of as broad a base of Somalis as possible across clans and regions (Somalis live across 5 regions being Somaliland, Somalia, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Kenya and are divided into separate clans). The section already had a photograph of Ali Yusuf Kenadid, who belongs to the same clan (Darod) and same sub-clan (Kablalah) and same sub-sub-clan (Harti) as Sultan Mahmoud Ali Shire who Soupforone was campaigning for. Furthermore, Sultan Shire was the Sultan of the Warsangali clan, who comprised 3.1% of the total population of British Somaliland Protectorate (their population figure being 20,000 out of total protectorate population of 640,000 [74]). The addition of Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria was due to his representation of the entire population of British Somaliland Protectorate in foreign missions (as attested to by official British records) as well as his belonging the majority clan in Somaliland (Isaaq, as opposed Darod to which both Kenadid and Shire belonged). The addition of politician Mahmoud Harbi was due to him belonging to a completely different Somali region (French Somaliland) as well as a different clan (Dir) thus broadening representation within the article and also being a noted pan-Somali leader which was relevant to the section. This would have had the effect of having Sultan Kenadid (representing Somalia Italiana and Darod clan), Sultan Deria (representing British Somaliland and Isaaq clan) and Mahmoud Harbi (representing French Somaliland and Dir clan) which would have been more inclusive and representative than having Sultan Kenadid and Sultan Shire (two figures belonging to the same sub-sub-clan of just one clan, Darod, out of all Somali clans). Please note that The main contention on part of Soupforone against the inclusion of Sultan Abdillahi Sultan Deria on this talk page was wp:burden [75] particularly with regards to ("he was apparently a clan leader and led what was claimed to be a cross-clan diplomatic representation"). They also mentioned Sultan Abdillahi not having a Wikipedia article being a reason on their edit summaries, a point which was challenged by Cordless Larry, Koodbuur, and myself as not having a standalone article does not stop their image from appearing in the article (if relevant). As for the original contention of Soupforone regarding verifiability and sourcing, an official document by the British Commissioner for Native Affairs explicitly stating that Sultan Abdillahi represented the whole population of British Somaliland Protectorate was cited [76] [77]. Sultan Abdillahi represented the entirety of the population of British Somaliland in dealing with the British Government, whilst Sultan Shire only represented his clan, the Warsangali, who made a small minority in British Somaliland Protectorate (3.1%) Additional information: Please note that Soupforone's push for Sultan Shire is mirrored on other pages, including the main article of Sultan Shire where he kept adding unsourced content and content from self-published and user-generated sources (even travel guides) with the same combative style repeatedly even when asked to only add content cited from reliable sources [78], [79], [80], [81], [82], [83], [84]. On both occasions (this page as well as Mahmoud Ali Shire's article) he was supported by now confirmed sock Cabuwaaqwanaag. Please also note that following a request to take the matter to the talk page by Cordless Larry [85], everyone was discussing the issue in the talk page until Soupforone's unilateral decision to go back to editing the page [86], which they continued despite requests to continue the discussion in the talk page [87], [88]. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2018 (UTC) My first point was actually that Sultan Shire "belongs to completely separate sultanate from other rulers", and that the "other leader is tribal chief without wikipage, not leader of an actual sultanate" [89]. This was made in an edit summary, not through my first talk page post. For the actual chronology of my arguments, please see my talkpage post above dated to 05:02, 11 February 2018. Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC) What we are discussing here are the explicit reasons you stated for the removal on this talk page, namely your citation of wp:burden [90], for which adequate sourcing was provided.--Kzl55 (talk) 13:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC) What actually matters is all indicated reasons for removal and in their proper chronological order, including both edit rationales and talk page posts. Soupforone (talk) 17:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC) We can only discuss what you have stated in the talk page. You could have added that point to your post, but you didnt. Instead you cited wp:burden as per [91], and that was fully answered. --Kzl55 (talk) 23:49, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Per WP:TALK#USE, "talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject." That would include both edit summaries and talk page posts. Soupforone (talk) 05:48, 16 February 2018 (UTC) You are incorrect. As editors we can only go by what you cite yourself within the discussion you have started. You only specified wp:burden in your post [92] and that was answered fully. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC) WP:TALK#FACTS-- "the talk page is particularly useful to talk about edits." That obviously would include edit summary rationales. Soupforone (talk) 06:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC) You left out the rest of the explanation "it is good practice to leave an explanation on the talk page and a note in the edit summary that you have done so". You only cited failure of wp:burden in your talk page post, you could have added to that comment, but you didnt. Editors in that talk page can only respond to points you raise in your posts, that much is common sense. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2018 (UTC) WP:TALK#FACTS doesn't indicate that editors in a talk page can only respond to points raised in talk page posts. On the contrary, it indicates that the talk page is also useful to talk about edits. Soupforone (talk) 05:38, 18 February 2018 (UTC) No one stated that "editors in a talk page can only respond to points raised in talk page posts", that is a point only you are making. I have simply stated that you can not expect editors to engage with points you did not bring up yourself in the talk page. It is common sense. --Kzl55 (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC) As regards the two sultan files on this page, the disagreement actually began after Kzl55 replaced the original Sultan Shire file with one of Sultan Deria, while also adding a non-free image of Harbi [93]. Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Harbi's file was added for the section to be more inclusive of Somalis across a wide geographical/political/clan base as possible. Harbi belonged to French Somaliland, and was a prominent pan-Somali leader, hence the inclusion. A non-free use rational was provided upon addition here. The goal of inclusivity and representation is agreed upon by all participants of this discussion except Soupforone. They went out of their way to state that representation "is just a courtesy rather than a necessity" [94]. This is very problematic for a section and an article that covers Somalis as an ethnic group. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Well, your interpretation of inclusivity and representation is not the same as mine, Doug Weller's or Cordless Larry's. The latter two individuals clearly explained that they weren't even sure what exactly the argument was/is about. Your interpretation does, though, appear to be the same as that of Koodbuur and SandMan25. Soupforone (talk) 17:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC) This is inaccurate. Please do not misrepresent editors' opinions. Cordless Larry has stated his agreement with with the aim of diversity and broad representation [95], this is also echoed by editors Koodbuur, SandMan25 and myself. Your view that representation "is just a courtesy rather than a necessity" [96] is only supported by yourself (and a confirmed sock).--Kzl55 (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC)Kzl55 (talk) 23:49, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Cordless Larry just indicated that "on the point about the article featuring a diverse range of images intended to represent the population as broadly as possible, I agree that that is a good aim". He didn't specify whether your Deria and Harbi files actually do that. Neither did Doug Weller. Koodbuur and SandMan25 do, though, apparently share your interpretation that these particular files are representative. Soupforone (talk) 05:48, 16 February 2018 (UTC) Please do not misrepresent my statement. Reread my post because that is exactly what it says "Cordless Larry has stated his agreement with with the aim of diversity and broad representation", I never mentioned the Sultan Deria or Harbi files in my post above. As it stands, all the editors involved in this discussion (Cordless Larry, Koodbuur, Sandman and myself) agree with the aim of diversity and broad representation. As far as I know no one in this discussion supported your statement of representation "is just a courtesy rather than a necessity" [97], other than a confirmed sock. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC) By "necessity" I meant actual Wikipedia policy, as my full phrase makes clear ("Also, please note that there is no actual Wikipedia policy indicating that clan representation must be followed. This is just a courtesy rather than a necessity."). Also, you wrote above that you "restored the Sultan Bihi addition because verifiable citation from reliable sources was provided to remedie the contention as per your first post as well as Cordless Larry's first comment". Ergo, you apparently did believe that by "a good aim" Cordless Larry meant that your sultan file specifically was representative. However, he did not indicate this. Soupforone (talk) 06:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC) You are incorrect again. My statement you are quoting was actually posted before Cordless Larry's "a good aim" comment. Please stop misrepresenting my statements. My reference to Cordless Larry's "first post" (which was linked) was clearly regarding the 'verifiability of the claim' (the specific point I was addressing), as I explicitly stated "I have restored the Sultan Bihi addition because verifiable citation from reliable sources was provided to remedy the contention as per your first post as well as Cordless Larry's first comment". In your first post you cited wp:burden, and Cordless Larry's first comment stated "However, the information does need to be verified, so I agree on that point" [98], as such my statement was very clear in addressing the verifiability issue. Cordless Larry did not even make the "good aim" comment until later in the discussion [99]. It still stands that a majority of participants in this discussion (Koodbuur, Cordless Larry, Sandman, and myself) agree with the aim of diversity. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2018 (UTC) The idea that Cordless Larry's "a diverse range of images" specifically means all Somali clans is reaching. That diversity could just as easily apply to gender, vocation, age group or birthplace as to clan/subclan. Soupforone (talk) 05:38, 18 February 2018 (UTC) You are incorrect, it is not reaching. Please do not misrepresent other editors' opinions on here. My post specifically tackled the issue of the highlighting of specific groups only being problematic in saying "With regards to your stance on representation, I am in agreement with Koodbuur. The section relates to the history of Somalis, it is important for an encyclopaedic article to be inclusive of all Somalis and not only highlight members of any one group", and at the end of that post I asked for the opinions of Koodbuur and Cordless Larry on a number of issues including representation [100] to which Cordless Larry replied: "...but on the point about the article featuring a diverse range of images intended to represent the population as broadly as possible, I agree that that is a good aim" [101]. It is very clear. And It still stands that a majority of participants in this discussion (Koodbuur, Cordless Larry, Sandman, and myself) agree with that aim of diversity.--Kzl55 (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC) That interpretation of what Cordless Larry wrote is also clearly incorrect since you similarly suggested elsewhere that "if you take into account the agreement we have in the talk page (Cordless Larry, Koodbuur, Sandman25 and myself) that the article and section should be representative of all Somalis, as broadly as possible, as opposed to having two Sultans in the section belonging to the same group and the same sub-group", to which Cordless Larry clarified that he actually wasn't even sure what the file issue was about ("Just to clarify the above: I agreed in principle that the images should be broadly representative, but haven't really been able to grasp exactly what the different proposals are."). Soupforone (talk) 05:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC) This is incorrect, Cordless Larry's comment you are quoting is regarding the specific proposals, which he stated he hasn't been able to grasp exactly what they are, I was not discussing the specific proposals in the above post but the aim of inclusivity and the importance of (" an encyclopaedic article to be inclusive of all Somalis and not only highlight members of any one group"). His comment was in reply to that point, nothing about proposals, and he made it clear that he supports the article featuring a diverse range of images to represent the population as broadly as possible. It still stands that a majority of participants in this discussion (Koodbuur, Cordless Larry, Sandman, and myself) agree with that aim of diversity.--Kzl55 (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC) "Inclusivity" is a nebulous term. If by that "clan/subclan" specifically was/is meant, this is not clear from foregoing since the word "clan" is not even used. What is certain is that I never indicated whether the page should or should not include as broad a population base as possible. I wrote instead that there is no actual Wikipedia policy indicating that clan representation must be followed, which is a different thing. Soupforone (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC) The word clan does not need to be explicitly used, I used the word 'group' instead just like I did in other comments like ("There is also the issue of representation and neutrality, the section already includes a photograph of Ali Kenadid, him and the Warsangali Sultan belong to the same group") [102]. We were discussing the fact that both Sultans you attempted to insert belonged to the same group. My original sentence which Cordless Larry responded to explicitly stated ("it is important for an encyclopaedic article to be inclusive of all Somalis and not only highlight members of any one group"), 'group' here is used in referring a problematic aspect in the section being Kenadid and Shire belong to the same group, thus the discussion on inclusivity of a broad base of Somalis. I think the point is very clear. As I said above it is clear there is an agreement among editors involved (Koodbuur, Cordless Larry, Sandman and myself) on the issue of broad representation and inclusivity, even if Cordless Larry did not state an opinion on the proposals yet.--Kzl55 (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2018 (UTC) You suggested elsewhere that Cordless Larry preferred broad-based population files instead of the two Sultan files, to which he indicated that he actually wasn't sure what the file choices were. Ergo, what "inclusivity" is understood to mean is not clear at all. Soupforone (talk) 05:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC) Your are confusing Cordless Larry "good aim" comment with the issue of proposals. I have requested their opinion on a number of issues including representation [103], to which they he replied (""...but on the point about the article featuring a diverse range of images intended to represent the population as broadly as possible, I agree that that is a good aim"") [104], his position on representation, as it pertains to my comment in which I asked for his opinion, is clear. He already answered that himself. He has not stated an opinion on the proposals yet, but it is clear there is an agreement among editors involved (Koodbuur, Cordless Larry, Sandman and myself) on the issue of broad representation and inclusivity.--Kzl55 (talk) 17:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC) As for Shire's wikibio, my initial edit there was adding honors that he had received [105]. I did not add any self-published or user-generated urls. Kzl55 then removed large swathes of apparently sourced text with the non-descriptive edit summary rationale that the material was "unsourced content" [106]. This looked like blanking to me, so I restored the text per WP:VANDTYPES. When Kzl55 finally explained that it was specifically the Wardheernews and Warsangeli.org websites that he meant were self-published and user-generated, I then began to replace those urls with better sources. Soupforone (talk) 04:13, 15 February 2018 (UTC) This is incorrect. My edit summary was not non-desciptive, I explicitly stated ("saving unsourced content to history pending sources"), this is a descriptive edit summary and used regularly by many Wikipedia editors including administrators [107]. Your edits were very problematic, you did not do it just once [108], but you kept combatively restoring unsourced/self-published/self-generated content repeatedly [109], [110], [111], [112], even using travel guides [113]. It was clearly unnecessary and disruptive. If you can not see that this behaviour is problematic then that is a cause for concern. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:30, 15 February 2018 (UTC) The rationale "unsourced content" is indeed non-descriptive if a dif (like the one above) actually shows large swathes of sourced content being removed. As far as I'm aware, Wikipedia also does not have a policy against travel guides. Soupforone (talk) 17:15, 15 February 2018 (UTC) As I have explained, the edit summary is adequately descriptive as used by seasoned WP editors as well as administrators of the English Wikipedia. The fact that you did not look at the content removed being of dubious sourcing (as correctly indicated by the summary) is a shortcoming on your end. The fact that you combatively restored content repeatedly despite multiple requests is also problematic behaviour. As for your use of travel guides as source, you must be aware that it is not acceptable per WP guidelines on sourcing including wp:exceptional. I think you should accept that your edits, particularly on that page, have been disruptive. --Kzl55 (talk) 23:49, 15 February 2018 (UTC) Actually, few editors would describe already sourced content as unsourced content in an edit summary (including in that Vashi dif above, which instead pertains to removal of unsourced content). They perhaps might indicate that the existing source(s) is unreliable or partisan, but they won't claim that it is unsourced because that would be incorrect. Soupforone (talk) 05:48, 16 February 2018 (UTC) That is incorrect. There were multiple instances of you restoring content despite very clear descriptions and citation of WP guidelines. The article had a problem with unsourced content (e.g. the statement: Shire was one of the three prominent rulers of present-day Somalia at the turn of the 20th century) as well as self-published/user-generated sources, which are unacceptable on the English Wikipedia and you have restored the problematic text repeatedly despite clear description in the edit summaries repeatedly [114], [115], [116], [117]. You even went as far as using travel guides [118] as a source when you are aware of this being unacceptable under wp:exceptional. I think you should accept that your edits in this case have been disruptive. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2018 (UTC) Actually, your first edit on Mohamoud Ali Shire removed mostly sourced text, with the editing rationale that the text was "unsourced content" [119]. I restored that mostly sourced text per WP:VANDTYPES - Blanking, illegitimate [120]. You again removed that mostly sourced text with the editing rationale that the text was "unsourced content", only this time you also wrote that "self-published sources are not acceptable on Wikipedia as per WP:RSSELF" [121]. Since you didn't explain which exact sources you believed were self-published, I restored the text with the explanation that "all urls are working; none were self-published (sultan is deceased)" [122]. You removed the text again while finally identifying which exact source you believed was self-published ("please do not restore without providing of reliable sources. http://www.warsangeli.org is a self-published per WP:RSSELF, it is also reliant on user-generated content as per WP:UGC, unacceptable on Wikipedia" [123]). I therefore restored the other text without the Warsangeli.org website ("sort text w/o sultanate website" [124]). You removed that other, mostly sourced text with the editing rationale that it was "unsourced content" and that it was "content from self-published or user-generated sources" [125]. I restored the sourced text with the explanation that "all urls are working, none are self-published or user-generated" [126]. You removed that mostly sourced text with the explanation that it was "unsourced content" and that "Wardheernews is self-published and/or user-generated as per WP:RSSELF, WP:UGC, also links are dead" [127]. However, it turned out that Wardheernews was not actually the original publisher of the work in question, but was instead republishing the piece. I therefore restored the text and pointed the phrases that were previously attributed to Wardheernews to the Biyokulule website where the article, which was apparently written by a former Ambassador of Somalia (not user-generated), had originally been published ("fix text w/o newsblog" [128]). Right after that, I replaced the Ambassador's piece for good measure [129]. That is the actual chronology. Soupforone (talk) 06:35, 17 February 2018 (UTC) Per WP:UNSOURCED: (All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution). The article had content that was largely unsourced or had sources that would not satisfy WP:RS. Thus content was saved to history pending sources. You kept restoring content that was unsourced or with problematic sourcing repeatedly [130]. Even when further explanation was provided ("please only add sourced content with citations from reliable sources. Self-published sources are not acceptable on Wikipedia as per WP:RSSELF") you restored the page complete with unsourced section and self-published/user-generated sources [131], [132], [133], [134]. Every single one of your restorations included problematic sourcing (be it unsourced content and/or sourcing that does not satisfy WP:RS). You have even introduced problematic sourcing yourself to the article by citing travel guides which goes against WP:EXCEPTIONAL. I think you should accept that your repeated restoration of content in this case has been disruptive. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:30, 17 February 2018 (UTC) WP:EXCEPTIONAL doesn't indicate anything about travel guides. Anyway, those difs actually demonstrate the opposite of what you're suggesting. That is they show that I was restoring mostly sourced content, not mostly unsourced content. Mostly sourced content which, as chronologically demonstrated above, you removed under the editing rationale that it was "unsourced content". My restorations were per WP:VANDTYPES - Blanking, illegitimate. There are even specific templates for this. However, there is no policy or template which indicates that sourced content should be blanked while using an editing rationale which claims that it is unsourced content. Soupforone (talk) 05:38, 18 February 2018 (UTC) The policy is very clear I am afraid, per WP:UNSOURCED (All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution), operative phrase here being "or restores". The article had content that was largely unsourced or had sources that would not satisfy WP:RS. You repeatedly restored such content, even when further explanation was provided in edit summaries. As I said above, every single one of your restorations above included problematic sourcing. This is disruptive. WP:EXCEPTIONAL does not need to specifically name travel guides as it explicitly states (Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources), which was not included in your repeated restorations. I believe you should accept such repeated restorations of content on your part have been disruptive.--Kzl55 (talk) 19:23, 18 February 2018 (UTC) Well, you did not explain what you believed was an exceptional claim in the Briggs travel guide and why, so there was nothing to explicate. The fact is, the difs above show that the material was largely sourced, not largely unsourced. Per WP:VER, proper procedure is to either tag or remove the few unsourced phrases rather than to blank half the page, most of which actually contained sourced text. If the sourced text itself is problematic, then the edit summary rationale for the text removal should indicate this rather than describe that text as unsourced. Soupforone (talk) 05:32, 19 February 2018 (UTC) I dont want to quote the policy for a third time, but it is very clear that (the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution). You have repeatedly restored content that was not compliant with WP:RS. You did not check if the content you were restoring was compliant with WP policy. That is very problematic. You have also introduced the use of problematic sourcing (such as travel guides) to make WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims in the article, that is also very problematic. I believe you should accept such repeated restorations as well as insertion of content on your part have been disruptive.--Kzl55 (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC) Actually, I restored the Briggs travel guide only once [135]. It is also incorrect to claim that travel guides are not allowed to be used on Wikipedia. WP:EXCEPTIONAL doesn't mention them. On the other hand, WP:NTRAN does permit them provided that they aren't self-published, which the Briggs travel guide (published by Bradt Travel Guides) is not-- "information published in a reliable travel guide may be used to verify information. Self-published or other homemade travel guides are not considered "reliable" by Wikipedia guidelines." Soupforone (talk) 04:57, 20 February 2018 (UTC) As I said, it is a fact that you have repeatedly restored content that was not compliant with WP:RS. The policy is clear that (the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution). You have repeatedly restored content without checking if it was compliant with Wikipedia policy, this is (as I said), very problematic. As for your addition of problematic sourcing (like the travel guide you have added as a source) to make WP:EXCEPTIONAL claims that are not backed up by multiple high-quality sources, that is also very problematic behaviour. Lastly, instead of accepting that your behaviour was problematic, you are attempting to misuse a transportation-related, inactive page to cover your breach of WP policy. This is also very problematic. I think you should accept your repeated restorations, insertion of content and the above attempt to misuse WP policy on your part have been disruptive. --Kzl55 (talk) 18:34, 20 February 2018 (UTC) Those claims were already addressed/debunked above, including the suggestion that WP:EXCEPTIONAL disallows travel guides. It doesn't mention them, but WP:NTRAN certainly does allow travel guides. Anyway, this is my last post on this issue since discussion is stale and off-topic. If you have anything else to say on the Shire wikbio, please do that on its talkpage per WP:TALK ("talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects)"). Soupforone (talk) 05:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC) It is a fact that you have repeatedly restored content that was not compliant with WP:RS. The WP:UNSOURCED policy is explicit in stating (the burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution), which you did not do. The fact that you did so repeatedly is very problematic. As for your addition of problematic sources (like the travel guide), this is also against WP:EXCEPTIONAL which explicitly states (Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources), which was not the case with your edit. This is also problematic. Lastly, your misuse of a transportation-related, inactive page (in WP:NTRAN) to cover your breach of WP policy, is also a cause for concern. I would like to repeat that I think you should accept your repeated restorations, insertion of content and the above misuse of WP policy on your part have been disruptive. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:50, 21 February 2018 (UTC) References

Sources

i meant to post this earlier. If you think yfull and Fonda meet our criteria you need to get agreement at WP:RSN? Doug Weller talk 19:12, 20 October 2018 (UTC) The data is completely legitimate and yfull has the most sophisticated and advanced y-chromosome tree anywhere available.Wadaad (talk) 20:30, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Population figures

The number of Somalis in Kenya keeps being changed to 3 million, but the figure per the cited source, which is the 2009 census, is 2,385,572. Please do not change this figure without supplying an alternative source (and in fact, it would be best to discuss the matter here first). I also think that the overall population figure needs a source, because just adding up several different countries' figures is original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:19, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

We are in 2018. Nearly a decade has passed since that census. Kenya's fertility rate is over 4 per woman and higher in rural areas where Somalis live. If you haven't noticed, I used the same method to come to the 6.7 million figure for Ethiopia (6.2% of present population of about 107 million Ethiopia's population). Kenya's population is estimated to be 51 million. 6.2% of that is over 3 million. Wadaad (talk) 15:49, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

The problem is "using a method" - that's original research. There is nothing to say that the population of Somalis has grown at exactly the same rate as the population as a whole. You'll need a source for the 3 million figure if you want to use it. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:01, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Clarified with a note. This should be sufficient. Somalis are Muslim and Muslims tend to have even higher fertility rates than Christians.. So if anything this will underestimate Wadaad (talk) 16:11, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, so not only are you additions original research, they are likely to be wrong. Please do not add them again without a source. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Seek consensus and stop your disruptive edits. You are not even Somali and it seems like you have an agenda here. Wadaad (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Wadaad, please refrain from personal attacks per WP:CIVIL, Wikipedia articles can be edited by everyone. As far as I can see, no reputable source cites the 3 million figure explicitly, this is why the figure was removed. Somali statistics generally are lacking and this is but one example, so unless we have new figures backed by reputable sources, we are stuck with older figures. Regards --Kzl55 (talk) 16:28, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Somalis in Kenya have bigger families than other Kenyans. See https://www.kenya-today.com/politics/somalis-join-the-big-four-tribes-in-kenya-muslims-to-produce-a-president-soon The estimate with a note is reasonable and therefore should be there. Wadaad (talk) 16:37, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Wadaad, you have been here long enough to know that we do not include our own population estimates in articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:23, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Doug Weller, as someone who takes an interest in this topic, would you be able to comment? Cordless Larry (talk) 21:43, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Cordless LarryThe topic that interests me is sources and original research. @Wadaad:, WP:VERIFY is core policy. If you can't follow it and insist also on ignoring our policy on no original research, you shouldn't be editing and you are virtually inviting a block.Doug Weller talk 08:05, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Doug Weller - that was my take too, and I was on the verge of taking Wadaad to AN/I yesterday about the "You are not even Somali" comments. Those aside, it seems that there is no consensus for Wadaad's changes, and I therefore propose that we revert this edit, which adds the unverified population estimates. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Wadaad (talk) 09:57, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

In what way is it ridiculous? Wikipedia policy has never allowed for editors to concoct their own population estimates. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:02, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

And Kenya-today is not a source to be used for an encyclopaedia anyway, it's just a blog site where people post opinions and the like. 131.203.122.225 (talk) 23:35, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

References

Lead expansion

It needs to be expanded.. It's a bit too short. For more info see Manual of Style/Lead section Wadaad (talk) 23:15, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Regarding "Hamitic"

There is several mentions of the outdated and frankly incorrect and pseudohistorical term "Hamitic" as an ethnolinguistic descriptor. I will assume, in good faith, that this is not an attempt at historical revisionism and promoting debunked theories but perhaps someone very old edtiting born in the middle of the 1800s.

I will now add instead redirects to the actual group of people this is most likely referencing Cushitic peoples 92.32.147.76 (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Europe figure

@Cordless Larry: you claim that I am violating WP:SYNTH, however, on the same page at WP:CALC it is permissible to perform routine calculations from sources and it does not constitute original research. On your other point that it does not reflect all of Europe: I have gone over the numbers and the countries left out have Somali/Somalia populations of under a thousand (think of places like Luxembourg, Portugal, Estonia etc) even without data on them the figure will not change by any meaningful number and the circa in front of it provides sufficient information to readers that it is a close approximation. Wadaad (talk) 20:44, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:CALC would only apply if we knew the Somali populations of all countries in Europe and were therefore able to calculate a total. There is also the issue that the figures for each country are arrived at through different measures (some represent the number of people of Somali ethnicity, others the number of people born in Somalia), so you are trying to add together figures that aren't comparable. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

WP:CALC does apply in my opinion because I have clearly explained the final figure using a tag, it is easily verifiable. As for not including all of Europe: again the countries not included on this page and the calculation do not have any meaningful Somali diasporas (sub-1000 people). All the major Somali diasporas are included. Their lack of inclusion will not change the figure by much. Somalis in Europe primarily live in West-Central Europe, Italy, and Nordic Europe (all included). Wadaad (talk) 21:05, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

"Meaningful" and "by much" are subjective. This is original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:49, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

You are being needlessly overly scrutinous to the point of hampering information flow. No major Somali diasporas exist in Eastern Europe or Iberia. Their national statistics bureaus state it. This is not only common knowledge but verifiable. etc. Figures for countries with more than 1,000 Somalis have all been included on this page. Wadaad (talk) 22:18, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

I can only refer you to WP:VERIFY. The figures you're adding up don't even refer to the same year. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:42, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

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Re my new addition to "Autosomal genetics" section

Recently, I added a sentence whose purpose is to concisely summarize the findings of the Hodgson et al. dna study, which is discussed and quoted in more detail further down in the section (and also illustrated in the map images from Hodgson in the section). My addition states that Somalis (and other Horn Africans) have a mixture of African ancestry of a type autothonous/indigenous to the Horn of Africa/"HOA" (which Hodgson terms the "Ethiopic" component) and ancestry derived from back-migrating non-Africans (which Hodgson terms the "Ethio-Somali" component). More precisely, my addition reads: "Research on autosomal DNA also shows that Somalis have a mixture of a type of African ancestry unique and autochthonous to the Horn of Africa as well as ancestry originating from a non-African back-migration."

After thus follows a somewhat detailed description of Hodgson's findings (including regarding the affinities of the non-African component, its divergence from other groups, its ubiquity in certain parts of the Horn of Africa, and other details), Hodgson et al. is quoted as follows regarding both components: "The African Ethiopic ancestry is tightly restricted to HOA populations and likely represents an autochthonous HOA population. The non-African ancestry in the HOA, which is primarily attributed to a novel Ethio-Somali inferred ancestry component, is significantly differentiated from all neighboring non-African ancestries in North Africa, the Levant, and Arabia." It seems to me that the new sentence effectively and concisely summarizes some of the study's key fingings regarding the ancestral makeup of Horn Africans, especially regarding their autocthonous African component, whose presence otherwise/previously was little noted and but briefly introduced in the Hodgson quote at the end. Skllagyook (talk) 23:41, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Ugas Nur

His poems are rememberd throughout the Somali regions. It's even used and was used in school texts book during Suugaan classes, (Poetry classes) and mentioned in numerious works by I.M Lewis or Andrzejewski. Ugas Nur is always featured in numerous works on Somali poetry, named among the famous names of Eilmi Boodhari and Ali Bu'ul. Page 65 [136]. This is in line with WP:Mainstream and WP:Notability. There are many sources [137],[138].

When you say "his poems re remembered throughout the Somali regions", you need to provide reliable sources that state as much, do you have any? Getting featured as one of many poets in an anthology is not evidence of being exceptional. Very few sources reference him on Google Books [139]. --Kzl55 (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The same link you use mentions his poetry lol and I quote: I am taken back to the magnificent oral poetry (witness Ugaas Nuur's lines), to the idyllic sweetness of the pastoral world in which I was born and spent my adolescent ::years, and to which I yearn to return [140]. Also he is mentioned in the Historical Dictionary of Somalia by Mukhar and I quote: . In his youth, he loved riding, hunting, and the traditional arts and memorized a great number of proverbs, stories, and poems. Eventually, he created his own store of sayings, poems, and stories that are quoted to this day. [141].

Also the link you used mentions him in numerous works on Somali poems and poetry. --AlaskaLava (talk) 21:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The issue of contention here is not whether he was a poet, its whether he was seen in reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Do you have reliable sources stating that he was a significant figure in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Those were all reliable sources. If he was not a significant figure, only a few works would've mention him, but that's not the case, even the most renown Somali anthropologists acknowledge him for his poetry and feature him in one of their finest works along the names of Elmi Bodhari, Ali Bu'ul, Mahamed Abdulle Hussein etc. In

1. Culture and Customs of Somalia [142],

2. An Anthology of Somali Poetry [143], again featured among names like Ali Bu'ul and Elmi Boodhari which are featured on the Somali poet list, re-affirming Ugaas Nuur being a significant figure in Somali poetry.

3. The same references are used on Elmi Boodhari's page. Even a blog is quoted. According to you, those sources are not reliable?

4. Apart from I.M Lewis, Andrzejewski, Abdullahi Mohamed Diriye he is also acknowledged by Mohamed Haji Mukhtar in his Historical Dictionary of Somalia. Eventually, he created his own store of sayings, poems, and stories that are quoted to this day. [144]

5. His work was and is still taught in Somali Poetry classes among other Somali poets. [145] PDF[146]

6. Apart from the book, he also mentioned in numerous journals for his poetry.

Bildhaan: An International Journal of Somali Studies [147]

Horn of Africa - Volumes 19-20 [148]

Collection of Somali poems [149]

War and peace: an anthology of Somali literature [150]

Journal of Somali Literature and Culture [151]

Aspects of artistic expression in Somalia [152]

So according to WP:Mainstream or WP:N he meets all values to be included in the list. Those sources are also reliable and not few as you put it in the beginning, but many. Also there are many more less notable individuals on the Authors and Poet list you consider reliable. So would you be so kind to restore it? Cheers. --AlaskaLava (talk) 22:47, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

There is no need to bombard the discussion with citations that do not answer the question. Being mentioned in a handful of sources indicates that he was a poet, to discuss him being a signifiant figure in Somali poetry you need reliable citations supporting such description. For instance, Hadrawi is "considered by many to be the greatest living Somali poet", this is the opinion of Daniel_Weissbort in [153]. Raage Ugaas is described as being "regarded as one of the greatest Somali poets" by Roland Greene in [154]. Academic authorities of the field describe these individuals as significant in Somali poetry. Do you have reliable sources stating that this individual was a significant figure in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I already answered your question on his nobility or being a significant poet. Whether he was the greatest or considered one of the greatest which I also never claimed is trivial to the matter. He was considered a great poet by many. Obviously, there are many great Somali poets; therefore, only a few will be mentioned here. [155].

And you're first issue was him not being mentioned in Google books or his poems being quoted to this day, which I disproved. Then you went on to say the sources are not reliable, which they obviously were or his nobility per WP:N. Which he all qualifies for. He was considered a great poet mentioned among notable poets as Raage Ugaas , Elmi Boodhari or Ali Bu'ul. Wether he was one the greatest or not to some is trivial to the matter. And he is mentioned among the greatest. --AlaskaLava (talk) 00:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

1)Per WP:BRD "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again. Instead, begin a discussion with the person who reverted your change to establish consensus", Wikipedia guidelines are very clear that you should not restore content before consensus is reached. Please perform a self-revert and remove contentious addition until talk page discussion is over. Attempting to bulldoze contentious content prior to consensus being reached is disruptive.

2) You have listed sources that mention the individual being a poet, this has nothing to do with being a significant figure in Somali poetry. I have asked you to cite reliable sources stating that the individual is a significant figure in Somali poetry 4 times so far, and you've not produced a single citation other than references to him being a poet, which is not the issue being discussed. I have included examples above of individuals who are regarded by experts as significant in Somali poetry and have provided sources stating as much. For the 5th time, do you have any similar sources? If not the individual should not be included.--Kzl55 (talk) 00:33, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

You refuse to acknowledge that the individual is notable out of subjective reasons. There are even more worrisome individuals mentioned on the list you do not apply the same rule for.

I already answered everything that was needed to prove his nobility and he qualifies per Wikipedia Guidelines, WP:Mainstream and WP:N as a notable individual and poet. If you want we can request a third opinion or we can get the dispute resolution board involved. --AlaskaLava (talk) 00:46, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

WP:BRD is very clear, "If your edit gets reverted, do not revert again", it is not up to you to decide when the discussion is over, this is a matter of consensus. If you would like to request a 3rd opinion you are free to do so. The sources you provided indicate that he was a Somali poet, but not a single source indicates that he was a significant figure in Somali poetry, this is the issue being discussed. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

He was very significant as I've already illustrated above. That's not for you to decide. Leave that to the anthropologists who have included his poems in their finest work, from among all the poets and poems they could have chosen, they chose his and put him among other significant poets. Cheers --AlaskaLava (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Having his poetry published does not equate to being seen in reliable sources as a significant figure, he was one of many poets published in these texts. You keep saying he was significant, and yet you have failed to produce a single source or expert text that states the individual was significant in Somali poetry. I have included above examples of significant individuals in Somali poetry along with expert text clearly supporting that statement. Do you have any similar supporting evidence for this individual? Please be concise, we do not need links indicating he was a poet, do you have any sources stating that he was significant in Somali poetry? --Kzl55 (talk) 08:59, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I have provided enough to prove his significance, you just choose to ignore the evidence. From all the scholarly work he is featured on, compiling the best of the best poetry and numerous journals and his poems being thought in school. Also Said Sheikh Samatar, a prominent historian and scholar said the following on the poet Mohammed Abdullah Hassan: But I would rate him with half-a-dozen: Salaan Arabay, Ali Dhuuh, Raage Ugaas, Haji Muuse Ismail, and Ugaas Nur. I would put those in the same category[156] , signifies the importance of Ugaas Nuur.

B. W. ANDRZEJEWSKI is Emeritus Professor of Cushitic Languages and Literatures in the University of London, where he was a faculty member of the School of Oriental and African Studies from 1952 to 1982 outlines in his most finest work on Somali poetry.

"This affordable and beautifully produced book is a small jewel in the field of Somali studies, as it is the fruit of over forty years of dedicated linguistic and literary scholarship by one of the most thorough and accurate translators and analysts of Somali poetry, B. W. Andrzejewski." ―International Journal of African Historical Studies

Somalia has been called "a nation of poets." This volume makes available in beautiful English translation the very best, and most universal, of Somali poetry, from the 19th century to the present. With appendixes covering the oral and written medium, the pronunciation of Somali words, alliteration and scansion, selected bibliography, and sources. --AlaskaLava (talk) 13:28, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

We are going in circles. As stated above, being mentioned in a handful of sources may indicate that he was a poet, but to ascertain whether he was a significant figure in Somali poetry, you need more than that. WP:EXCEPTIONAL states that "Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources". The fact that this exceptional claim is not covered by multiple mainstream sources is a red flag. I have given two examples above for Hadrawi and Rage Ugas, both regarded by experts across multiple high quality sources to be significant figures in Somali poetry. Inclusion of this individual in the absence of multiple high quality sources would thus be undue. It seems we have reached an impasse, I suggest we wait for the 3rd opinion. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:03, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Third opinion requested. --Kzl55 (talk) 09:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Response to third opinion request (Regarding inclusion of Ugas Nur in the list of Authors and poets):

Based on the information provided, it appears that there is no doubt that Ugas Nur is a notable Somali historical figure (that is, he is sufficiently notable to warrant an article on Wikipedia). There is also no doubt that he coined a number of poems in his lifetime, some of which have been recounted in texts, and he is therefore recognized as a poet (that is, one who has written poetry). However, I have not seen sufficient sources to support the assertion that he is recognized as a ‘significant figure’ in Somali poetry, and therefore I am of the overall opinion that he does not warrant inclusion in the list. Jack Frost (talk) 12:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks, appreciate you taking the time to read through the above. --Kzl55 (talk) 13:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your expediency and well-reasoned review, Jack Frost. El_C 14:59, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Greetings, First Kzl55 argument was about him being notable, which he was. Then he went on to say there are not many books that mention him on Google books. Which I disproved.

Then he went on to say it's about being one of the greatest, which is trivial to the argument.

He fully ignores my arguments and Ugas Nur is not only taught in school[157] PDF[158] , but is featured in one the best scholarly works on Somali poetry An Anthology of Somali Poetry:"This affordable and beautifully produced book is a small jewel in the field of Somali studies, as it is the fruit of over forty years of dedicated linguistic and literary scholarship by one of the most thorough and accurate translators and analysts of Somali poetry, B. W. Andrzejewski." ―International Journal of African Historical Studies.

Somalia has been called "a nation of poets." This volume makes available in beautiful English translation the very best, and most universal, of Somali poetry, from the 19th century to the present. With appendixes covering the oral and written medium, the pronunciation of Somali words, alliteration and scansion, selected bibliography, and sources.

So if one of the best scholars on Somali poetry considers him significant enough to be featured in his book covering a handful poets from the 19th century to the present. How can individuals not call him significant.

The individual also does not apply the same rules to other individuals mentioned on the list, who are even less significant than Ugas Nur and are not even featured on one of the best works on Somali poetry.

• Elmi Boodhari (1908 – 1940) – Early 20th century poet and pioneer in the genre of Somali love poems. He is popularly known by Somalis as the King of romance (Boqorki Jacaylka)
• Ali Bu'ul (Cali Bucul) – 19th century poet, military leader and sultan, many of the most well known geeraar (short styled poems recited on a horse) came from ::his tongue and are still known today.
• Mohamed Ibrahim Warsame 'Hadrawi' – songwriter, philosopher, and Somali Poet Laureate; also dubbed the Somali Shakespeare.
• Ugas Nur –19th century Somali tribal King, he has produced numerous gabays (poems) which are still quoted to this day and taught in school.
• Hassan Sheikh Mumin – 20th century poet, playwright, broadcaster, actor and composer.
• Nuruddin Farah (born 1943) – Somali writer and winner of the 1998 Neustadt International Prize for Literature.
• Abdillahi Suldaan Mohammed Timacade (1920–1973) – prominent Somali poet known for his nationalist poems such as Kana siib Kana Saar.
• Mohamud Siad Togane (born 1943) – Somali-Canadian poet, professor, and political activist.
• Maxamed Daahir Afrax – Somali novelist and playwright. Afrax has published several novels and short stories in Somali and Arabic, and has also :::written two plays, the first being Durbaan Been ah ("A Deceptive Drum"), which was staged in Somalia in 1979. His major contribution in the field of theatre criticism :::is Somali Drama: Historical and Critical Study (1987).
• Gaarriye (1949 – 2012) – Somali poet, most notable for his famous poem Hagarlaawe.
• Nadifa Mohamed – Somali novelist. Winner of the 2010 Betty Trask Prize.
• Musa Haji Ismail Galal (1917–1980) – was a Somali writer, scholar, linguist, historian and polymath
• Farah Mohamed Jama Awl – Somali author best known for his historical fiction novels.
• Diriye Osman – Somali writer and visual artist. Winner of the 2014 Polari First Book Prize.
• Sofia Samatar – Somali professor and writer. Winner of the 2014 World Fantasy Award.

Also Ugaas Nuur is mentioned in multiple works among the names of Raage Ugaas, who is considered one of the greatest, which proves his significance.

Plus I have found another source stating he is a celebrity and famous poet.[159], again proving his significane as a poet, Cheers --AlaskaLava (talk) 15:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

References

That's a legitimate objection which warrants a substantive response. El_C 16:21, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

AlaskaLAva, you have been asked to be concise previously, Wikipedia is not a forum. Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources per WP:EXCEPTIONAL, as such inclusion of this individual in the absence of multiple high quality sources would be undue. Let me remind you that it was you who suggested getting a third opinion as means of reaching consensus in the first place [160], and you have reiterated that stance in response to El C below. Jack has kindly gone through it and confirmed that whilst the poet may be notable for a stand-alone article, he is not presented in majority of reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Objecting to the 3rd-opinion route that you have suggested yourself does not change the sourcing situation. I suggest we end it there and move on. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Just to add, the first criteria of WP:POET is The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by peers or successors, it is clear that this individual is not widely cited in reliable sources as a significant figure in Somali poetry. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources as discussed above. Other POET criteria include:

• The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory, or technique.
• The person has created or played a major role in co-creating a significant or well-known work or collective body of work. In addition, such work must have been the primary subject of an independent and notable work (for example, a book, film, or television series, but usually not a single episode of a television series) or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews.
• The person's work (or works) has: (a) become a significant monument, (b) been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) won significant critical attention, or (d) been represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums.

Sources presented thus far do not satisfy any of these criteria. --Kzl55 (talk) 16:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

AlaskaLAva, regardless of the truth, the consensus version is the one decided by the 3rd Opinion procedure. The 3rd Opinion results codifies the consensus, for now. So you, at the moment, are facing a consensus version which is against inclusion. That's the result of the procedure. Yes, consensus can change, but it happens over time. Anyway, I am unprotecting the page and am mandating you to accept the exclusion for, say, three months. Then you can maybe launch an RfC, if you still feel that strongly about it. El_C 16:40, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes I fully understand and for now will accept the consensus. Thank you for your time. --AlaskaLava (talk) 17:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Full protection

Folks, might I submit that until consensus is reached, the status quo ante version should be the version that would be displayed, per WP:ONUS, which reads: the onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. If you reach an impasse, here, on the article talk page, there are dispute resolution requests you can avail yourself with, like 3rd Opinion or Request for Comment. El_C 00:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. Many thanks --Kzl55 (talk) 01:01, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I fully stand behind this. Thank you! --AlaskaLava (talk) 01:24, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Arabic language

The Arabic language is also spoken by Somalis. For this reason, Arabic should be added to the infobox. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:4B00:9008:9200:8414:F175:20BA:F49 (talk) 15:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Arab scholars

@Toltol15: My concern is only this: and no Arab scholar links them to any Qurayshi member or tribe. The sources say clearly enough that there is no link to the Quraysh. But which source says that "no Arab scholar" makes that connection ? --Rsk6400 (talk) 19:54, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@Rsk6400: Do you have a reliable source from an Arab scholar who says they descend from a Qurayshi member or tribe? Toltol15 (talk) 16:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Please take a look at WP:BURDEN. It clearly says, Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed and should not be restored without an inline citation to a reliable source. --Rsk6400 (talk) 18:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

That's not the right question here. Even if we search and can't find such a source, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist, and to conclude that it doesn't would be original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

I provided sources and they have references of Arab scholars, if any Somali clan descended from a Qurayshi member or tribe the sources would have stated it clearly, if you guys have a source that states otherwise I have no objection to the removal of the line but as it stands the line is not WP:Source, WP:Burden, or WP:OR. Toltol15 (talk) 22:04, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

You're getting the burden demonstrate verifiability the wrong way round again. Unless there's a source that clearly establishes that no Arab scholar links them, the article shouldn't claim that. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:14, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion on what the primary topic of this article should be

People of Somali ethnicity and people of Somali nationality are both referred to by the term "Somalis". This conflation of ethnicity and nationality is also characteristic of other ethnicities and nationalities. The implications of these conflations for the primary topic of Wikipedia articles has been discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups#"Germans", "French people" etc - ethnicity vs nationality. This issue is also of relevance to our article onSomalis. That leads to the question: What should be the primary topic of this article?

• People of Somali ethnicity
• People of Somali nationality (i.e. people with Somali citizenship)
• The term "Somalis" itself (per WP:WORDISSUBJECT)
• There is no primary topic for the term "Somalis"
• Something else (feel free to elaborate)

Krakkos (talk) 15:34, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

• People of Somali ethnicity: Somalia is almost completely homogeneous ethnically. It is not worth trying to expand the article for a few thousands of other people. Super Ψ Dro 22:14, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2021

Can I fix the grammar in the paragraph and add the Somali flag, please? 71.195.20.108 (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:57, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Somaliland

@Cordless Larry: Could you explain why my edits keep getting removed? Somaliland has conducted its own census that estimates the population to be at around 3,5 million (previous source I added turns out to not be as reliable as I thought). Given that Somaliland is in almost all HOA-related infoboxes that would be the informal consensus then; to include Somaliland, especially considering the fact that Somaliland is the only country with an almost 99% Somali population.

Please share your thoughts Dabaqabad (talk) 03:25, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

As I explained in my edit summary, the footnote you tried to add to the Somalia entry doesn't work, so readers would expect the figure to include Somaliland. It's also unclear how you've calculated the figure for Somalia minus Somaliland. Could you explain that here? Cordless Larry (talk) 06:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I calculated it by using the source but excluding the five regions that make up Somaliland that Somalia claims but has no jurisdiction over. Somalia has no ability to conduct a census in Somaliland due to its lack of sovereignty or even influence in the area. Dabaqabad (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Could you list those five regions here for those of us who aren't familiar? Cordless Larry (talk) 09:42, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Those five claimed regions are Awdal, Woqooyi Galbeed, Togdheer, Sanaag and Sool. Somalia has no jurisdiction in those regions, and in the case of Woqooyi Galbeed that region has ceased to exist and now functions as the regions of Maroodi Jeex and Saaxil.

Both Somaliland's own census and the UN census used for Somalia's figure confirm that Somaliland's population is at 3,5 million, a census Somalia has not conducted and is unable to conduct nor organize as it has no effective sovereignty in the area. Dabaqabad (talk) 15:34, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

When I deduct the population of those regions from the total given in the UN report, I don't get the figure of 8,895,715 that you used here. Am I missing something? Cordless Larry (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Sorry, I recalculated it and the total became 8,808,715. Is that the same figure you got? Dabaqabad (talk) 04:23, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I get. What do other editors think about separating out these figures? If we are to do this, how should it be noted? Cordless Larry (talk) 07:30, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with presenting the Somaliland figures seperately if Somaliland has conducted it's own census. Amirah talk 20:29, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Sorry for my late reply. We could add a note to Somalia's figure that highlights the fact that Somaliland isn't included. Dabaqabad (talk) 19:36, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: So what's the verdict? Dabaqabad (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

It seems there's no opposition, so I think it's just a case of you needing to make sure the explanatory note works. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:11, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Understood. I'll try my best. Thanks! Dabaqabad (talk) 14:26, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

The note isn't working, Dabaqabad. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:25, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: That's very strange. What seems to be the problem? Dabaqabad (talk) 11:54, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on notes, Dabaqabad, but the cite error that appears at the bottom of the page might tell you what you need to know. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: Fixed it. Seems like I forgot to add the reflist template for the note. It should work now. Dabaqabad (talk) 12:09, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 24 May 2021

+ Caption text Abdimajid Osman (talk) 15:26, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Run n Fly (talk) 15:52, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Remove picture. COPY RIGHT INFRINGEMENT

Hi,

Please remove picture posted under ‘Art’ section, captioned “ Women with Kohl eyes”. Remove this or else this will be taken to court.

Regards, Owner of the picture Lola21020 (talk) 00:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

At Commons:File:Ucidlhd29.png, it is stated that this is a still from a YouTube video that was available for reuse under a Creative Commons license. If you believe this is incorrect, please explain further, Lola21020. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:27, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi Larry, this is indeed incorrect the YouTube video was posted without my mothers permission as she was attending an event. My mother does not want her picture posted on Wikipedia. Also, that video is no longer available on YouTube as the account it was associated with was removed. Again, please remove this picture.

Regards, Sam Lola21020 (talk) 08:21, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I've only just seen your reply, Lola21020. I can't remove the image as I'm not an administrator on Wikimedia Commons. If you want to nominate it for deletion, please see Commons:Deletion requests. However, please note that permission is not necessarily required to post images of people on the internet, so your request might be denied. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 December 2021

Change the population data numbers from 2014 survey to 2019 world population prospects by United Nations. 213.89.33.111 (talk) 17:20, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Edit requests require that the requester state what changes they want in "X to Y". Please link directly to the source of this data and state explicitly which numbers in the article should be changed and what they should be changed to. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 03:43, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Slaves of Bantu

Some of these Bantu people appear to have been early settlers in Somalia, likely from before the period of settlement by the Cushite Somalis.[12][13] Complementing archaeological documentation of the spread of the Bantu to the coastal region is the linguistic data afforded by Ehret, Nurse, and Hinnebusch.[14] According to this information, a northern coastal branch of Eastern Bantu-speakers, called the proto-Sabaki by linguists, appeared in the interior of the northeastern Tanganyika coast sometime around AD 500 and advanced northwards as far as the Jubba River in Somalia. By the end of the first millennium, these had evolved into increasingly distinct dialects, well on their way to becoming the separate Swahili, Pokomo, Elwana, MijiKenda, and Comorian languages of recent centuries.[15] From the work of Guthrie and Nurse,[16] it is clear that the early coastal Sabaki-speakers primarily were agriculturalists with knowledge of pottery. They cultivated a variety of yams, vegetables, beans, and bananas, along with cereals, while they kept goats, sheep, chickens, and a few cattle.

These agriculturist people tradition later birth a legendary city called Shungwaya Shungwaya was found in Somalia know that Shungwaya has been a historical town.[17] Its ruins are still to be found near the present Port Durnford Bay in the south of Somalia.[18] the historicity of Shungwaya seems beyond doubt. First, as shown above, it appears in the traditions of such a large number of disparate, though related, peoples. And, second, Shungwaya was known to the Portuguese already by the sixteenth century.[19] The Book of Zenj places it at Bur Gao on the southern Somalia coast; Burton, on the other hand, places it near the Tana River;[20] while most sources locate it on the mainland littoral just north of Lamu.[21] ​locations given for Shungwaya in the traditions might have stretched from the Jubba/Webbi Shebeelle River system southwards to the Tana River. It included the coast and offshore islands and reached inland for an indefinite distance.[22]

The date of its origin is open to the argument since the region described apparently always has been inhabited. Yet traditionally Shungwaya was destroyed in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries when the Oromo forced its inhabitants to emigrate to the south and to the coastal islands.[23][24] Shungwaya represents what was the pre-'Shirazi', pre-Islamic culture, The roots of a traditional social, and economic milieu from which northern coastal civilization emerged as a distinct cultural and religious entity.

While traditions exist which say that Shungwaya was ruled' by a mysterious group called the Kilio, the meaning of ruling' (as is the meaning of migration').[25] Along the coast, however, Bantu-speaking agriculturalists were numerically stronger. Thus, the villages and towns of the Bantu (or early Swahili), especially when they were on offshore islands, had the advantage, and it was the pastoralists like the Garre who came to the coastal fringe and islands as clients (shegat).[26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nurduube100 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Your addition is original research (which is against wikipedia's rules, see article no original research), using a patchwork of different sources to come to your own conclusion. The general consensus among Somali historians is that the Somali Bantu trace their origins largely to the Indian Ocean slave trade that took place between what is now Mozambique/Tanzania/Kenya and the Arab world. I have removed the original research and added reliable sources such as Medieval travellers who visited Southern Somalia in the Middle Ages and documented their account. AzanianPearl (talk) 12:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

World Bank open later

This information isn't updated why ! Although I was see late time but I'm not happy Wikipedia where he is must pupular publisher's in world. Plz update this old information of Somalia nation. 196.190.186.114 (talk) 13:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 February 2022

173.183.161.26 (talk) 03:19, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I am requesting an edit because a lot of data that is put on here has changed. The numbers have declines or increased.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 03:32, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I am somalia from Portugal

The people of Kushiti origin live in Hargeisa, Somalia, Hargeisa, Burao, Mogadishu. Burana originally came from Ethiopia. darood Ismail jabarti is arabic shanshida from Portuguese midgaha from Israel mostly kushiti and from Ethiopia 2A02:A03F:856F:9100:C5AF:F636:864F:EA8D (talk) 04:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

population of states in somalia:-

1. somaliland estimates :- 2,720,000 million people 2. puntland estimates 8,990,000 milion people 3. jubbaland .............5,660,000,,,, 4. galmudug ...........1,220,000,,,, 5 hirshabelle state .....1,100,000,,, 6. south west ,,,,,,,, 3,500,000,,,, 7. Banadir region 6700,200,,, 197.231.202.192 (talk) 03:13, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Please adjust unsourced text on 20,000 Somalis arriving 10 years ago

Please replace

An estimated 20,000 Somalis emigrated to the U.S. state of Minnesota some ten years ago and the Twin Cities (Minneapolis and Saint Paul) now have the highest population of Somalis in North America.[230] 

with

The first wave of Somalis emigrated to the U.S. state of Minnesota in the early 1980s, and the Twin Cities (Minneapolis and Saint Paul) now have the highest population of Somalis in North America.[230] 

Reason: The cited reference (dating from 2004) makes no mention of 20,000, and makes no mention of "ten years ago" whenever that is supposed to be. Instead, the source mentions the first wave of Somalies arriving in the early 1980s's based on two individual cases who arrived in 1980 and 1982. 2A00:23C6:549D:C301:DD55:BB64:77EE:BC30 (talk) 12:40, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 May 2023

Hi the population of somalia is currently 18million alot of the numbers are inaccurate there are 10million somalis in Ethiopia not 4 million there is more mistakes too 102.68.79.171 (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 13:11, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Religion

This article is misleading, I know personally Somalis who are Shia Muslims, not all Somalis are Sunnis. 120.17.229.187 (talk) 07:40, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

No one those are not somalis bro 41.220.239.166 (talk) 11:30, 4 July 2023 (UTC)