Talk:Pied-Noir

Edits

I edited the first sentence of the article, who claimed that Pied Noir was the name given to the French colonist. Actually, it's a bit more complicated : More than half the pied-noir population was of other European descent (from Italy, Malta, Spain), mainly in the Oran area. Moreover, the word colonist is a bit POV and unacurate : As explained in the article, most of the Pied Noir were urban. If I agree to use the word colonist in order to speak about the Pied Noir of the Mitjida area and the German of Sout Dakota, I think this word is a bit odd for the Dock worker of bab-el-Oued or the German shoemaker of Little Germany, New York.--83.112.227.28 01:29, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Funny I was told in France that the term "pied noir" was an ironic way of saying that the European population in N Africa were not "totally white" (whatever that means). Your explanation suggesting a way to distinguish them from the local population by the shoos is politically correct and very funny but completely non sense because pied-noir was a term used in France not in N Africa and everybody in France knows is meant as a racial insult towards the colonial population returning to France. I doubt anybody would have difficulty telling apart a French colonialist from the local population in N Africa.

Excuse us to came here when your project have more important issues to solve. We come from the Seychelles community in EU, way back in 1979 when we visited Paris to seek support from former Leading Pied Noirs who run French muntinational company,(among them the Grand Moulin des Paris)the big banks, politicians and generals - very many we discussed the Seychelles revolution and exile threw it bluntly in our face as far as France was concern we were "ruddy pied noirs". It was we the so called "pied noirs Seychelles that made it possible, in pute in the Polish strike - Solidarnos had just started, later our involvement to help change COMECON, the Berlin Wall, German Reunification and changes in USSR the terrible lies and cover up. Our special contribution to change OAU to African Union. The special role as "pied Noir from Seychelles contribution to the EU, Commission, enlargement politic, and EU economy. We have colaborated in very many important issues with the late President Francois Mitterand,(Includng the channal Tunnal prject £4.5 billions not finished £15 billions, our contribution to save the almost bankrupt project this year, refinance, structure, the Greater Pas des Calais Economic project, the Med Region Economic project and the Alpine Region Economic project) It was we the "Pied noir Seychelles" who tried to save France face the "Mini Telsystem" important role and contribution in the CERN, the French man and Tim Brenner Lee to write the WWW, the big bust up with us over German Reunification - France loss of power in EU and the world. The high parties in EU, USA that refused that we write who we are what we have done.{Not to mention the archaic/fraternal establishment in France and Britain} Not to forget our contribution to help build Britain and its economy way back in 1981 under Lady Tacther when it was called the "sick man of EU" We finally managed to put our community portal together - may be ought to have called "Pied Noir Seychelles" . We have started a wikipedia project to explain the world who we are, come from and going - we are getting a lot of difficulty, the community do not want to participate - they want the benefit and the positive outcome only. Some of the reason fo the Gulf War and other regional wars - because of the "pied noirs Seychelles" Please visit our project and recommand it. Check out with Premier Blair our contribution to make poverty history in Africa - $800 billions debt write off (G8 Scotland)for Afican Union. Note: The involvement of our community in the Knight Templar issues way back in 1981 -date, contribution to Vatican work to publish the book on the Knight Templar Trial and disbanding. Those from the Templar their contribution in the SIROP project. We have made a contribution also about the death of Colonel Bernard Dennard death 14/10/07. ( Had we not made that unique inpute in Poland, the COMECON would not have change very likely a Nuclear war and President Sarkosy not the president of French Republic. ) [[1]] Grandlarousse 18:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Relation to Algerian immigrants

How is the relationship among Pied-noirs and Algerian immigrants in Metropolitan France?

there is good relationship between the pied noir (I am a pied noir descent) and algerian immigrants.When they meet each other they talk about Algeria not the algerian war.

My mother is pied-noir. I wont be as affirmative as the previous people. Some algerians are always blaming France for what happened. However, they don't recognize war crimes of FLN and ask french people to be repentent in the same time. It makes any discussion about the independance war sort of taboo.

Sephardic

The Sephardic Jews arrived to find a large Jewish community already in place and the two communities combined over time. ALERIANS and pied-neir tewdrion qwas thewu fhiwdh gwsnmx vhdjdhqndm cmdbcadghad cnjdkgrhkfcds — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.34.19.38 (talk) 01:15, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Just wondering - a possible link?

I just noticed that under the Ottoman sultans dhimmis were required to wear black shoes - could this have something to do with the terms origins?

Color codes on the map

Someone pelase explain what the colors are meant to represent on the map!

1962 massacre in Oran

Is the kidnapping of thousands referred to in the second paragraph under "Exodus" the same as this massacre? [2] There are a lot of web pages referring to this, but with the date July 5 instead of July 6-7. Rbraunwa 02:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I figured this out (just found the separate article).

Rbraunwa 12:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Forgetting the rest of N Africa?

Pied noir refers to all Europeans (specifically Jews) in the Maghreb (Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco). It is a huge mistake to excluse Tunisian and Algerian pied noirs from this article? Side note - there is a large pied noir population in Los Angeles also - a famous Tunisian pied noir is BCBG's Max Azria.

Morocco and Tunisia

Is there an article about European settlers in Morocco and Tunisia?

Sephardics are not pieds-noirs!

The article says "It also includes the Algerian Jewish population". I would like a source to confirm this.

From my perspective (Both my parents are North African Jews), the only Pieds-Noirs are the ones who colonized North Africa. Most Jews are not. A Pied-Noir is in most cases a French who moved to North Africa when France colonized it. Most Jews were there before that happened. The French version of wikipedia says "les séfarades ne sont pas des pieds-noirs".

Can we then correct the English version? They contradict each other.

I'm working on finding sources for this article, as it was tagged to need sources and I am having trouble finding any source to support the definition of pieds-noirs as including Jews who had lived in Algeria before French colonization. Does anyone have a source to confirm this? Lazulilasher (talk) 20:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Pied-Noir organizations in France have Jews members, considering themselves as Pied-Noir, most famous is singer Enrico Macias. Here the latest who writes is right, Wikipedia is not a reference. Now French Wiki says "Some sepharadic families consider as Pied-Noir only European Algerian people" --Gollan (talk) 08:46, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

La Déchirure historique des Juifs d’Algérie http://www.sefarad.org/publication/lm/056/html/page31.html

Juifs en Algérie avant la conquête française (1830) http://www.alger-roi.net/Alger/colonisation/textes/juifs_algerie_avant_gamt5.htm

Les noms de famille des sépharades http://www.modia.org/infos/israel/nomsefarad.html

Bibliothèque algérienne - Gravures, livres et autographes. COLLECTION GERARD SANGNIER - DROUOT-RICHELIEU mardi 10 décembre 2002. PIASA – PARIS http://www.argusdubibliophile.com/bibliotheque-algerienne.htm

Frania W. (talk) 06:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Copy editing, and references

Hi, I just added references to this article and some more information in a number of sections (notably the History section). Lazulilasher (talk) 02:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Notable pied-noir section

Hi, I removed this section as it was like a list and was listed on the article's peer review. However, it's still listed here. Lazulilasher (talk) 00:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

   There are a few places where the prose is unclear, and these have been marked.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Two of the images used in this article have insufficient fair-use justifications: Image:Pied-noir-barricade.png, Image:Harkis-anciens-combattants-pied-noirs-joint-protest-algiers.png. This must corrected before the article can be promoted to GA.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   jackturner3 (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow, those clarify tags are really neat. I didn't even know that they existed....Lazulilasher (talk) 04:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I still don't like the way the first paragraph of "The Jewish Community" reads becuase it bounces all around history without real thought to the flow of history insofar as the description of how Jews came to be in Algeria. I would sersiouly rewrite that. Additionally, the article seems top-heavy with images now; it would be best to disperse some of these more evenly to make up for the loss of the two images that did not have fair-use rationales. However, neither of these points should severly hamper the article from being promoted to GA. -- jackturner3 (talk) 20:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

disagree >> this is not GA

the article is bad, it lacks many aspects and focuses on history and jews (who are not pied noir actually, sephardic jews were there way before the french conquest hence are not "european settlers" so to speak!), nothing is said about the PN culture itself, what about cuisine and speaking? Cliché Online (talk) 19:00, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Origin of Term, removal

Hi, I don't use a pen name to name myself : I am Olivier Cazeaux, a French Algerian proud of his roots. What is your genuine name, Lazulilasher ? Would you be afraid to give it ? How can you deny what I write ? What could justify you or anybody have the right to use a pejorative word to name a community ? If I tell that my own parents didn't know this term (my father was an engineer) in 1962, would you dare assert I'm a liar ? I cried at the age of four when French metropolitans told I was a "pied noir". I asked my mother why : my feet are pink, not black. All men of my family fought during all the wars ; my father's older brother was killed in 1944 in Normandy (Patton Army) at the age of 20. He was a French, fully French, not a "pied noir". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.251.87.227 (talk) 22:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, please note that I just removed this [3] from the article. It seemed slightly POV, however if you feel differently, please feel free to mention and we can discuss. Lazulilasher (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

FAC

FAC withdrawn by nominator --ROGER DAVIES ^talk 05:04, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Spelling / capitalization - this move should have been discussed

This spelling (capital N noir) does not seem to correspond to the spelling rules of French, nor the general wikipedia approach, nor the way it is usually (to my knowledge) spelled in English - which is like it is in French. Happy to discuss here, but a change like this should have been raised on talk page first. I propose it be moved back.--Gregalton (talk) 14:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are 100% correct. I didn't know anyone else was looking at the article! I am moving it back now. How happy I am to see another post. Anyway, I'm going to move the page back. Honestly, it has been very difficult to decide which direction to follow--Pied-Noir or Pied-noir....Do you happen to know the objective answer? Also, the article just recently was nomintaed for FA, but then the nomination was removed. One of the things noted was that their was too much text and often it was redundant. Since you seem to have an interest, would you mind sticking around for awhile and helping out? Thanks! Lazulilasher (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok! It's been moved back. Let me knwo what you think. Lazulilasher (talk) 14:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, here's the discussion from my talk, it should have been put here before, I apologize! Lazulilasher (talk) 15:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Lazu: While you were touring France looking for a job (!) I went thru the Pied-Noir article, mostly editing the name itself. However, you will notice that the title is written "Pied-noir": the n of noir needs to be capitalized. I am unable to change it because nowhere do I find the title when I click on edit this page. As much as I have read on the Pieds-Noirs, and discussed it avec des amis pieds-noirs, no one can give the origin of the expression - they always heard/used it, c'est tout! I also re-read the book François d'Orléans, prince de Joinville (éditions France Empire, 1990), by French Admiral Jacques Guillon. Joinville (1818-1900) was king Louis-Philippe sixth child out of seven. As an officer in the French Royal Navy, he did a lot of va-et-vient in the Mediterranean Sea & visited ports of N. Africa, of which he gives interesting descriptions. However, when speaking of the French "colons", never does he use the word "pieds-noirs". Signing off for a few hours. Aurevoir! Frania W. (talk) 13:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Frania, I actually went through an FAC that I withdrew for the article and your exact point was mentioned. I will move the article today to "Pied-Noir" to make it correct. The origin of the term is murky--I've read numerous claims and cited a few in that article. Honestly, maybe we should just remove the section? Lazulilasher (talk) 13:32, 23 April 2008 (UTC) Ok, I removed the Origin of the Term portion for now. Also, I was instructed that the prose is too lengthy--so feel free to apply your editing scissors :) Lazulilasher (talk) 13:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Lazu, I checked your last change: I would keep the portion you just removed - even if the origin of the term is "murky", you did not create the murkiness, and by leaving the portion, we'll have more of a chance of someone helping with the matter. Bon couscous! Frania W. (talk) 15:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If it can help in the discussion, please check the article in fr:wikipedia: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieds-Noirs

Frania W. (talk) 17:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'll double check but I say mea culpa for now. (I admit I'm surprised, but I also appear to be wrong).--Gregalton (talk) 17:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Web search proves ambiguous. I'll check my becherelle. (Becherelle?)--Gregalton (talk) 17:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for coming back! To be honest, I've seen it both ways....I wonder what l'Academie says? Lazulilasher (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so to complicate matters, I'm getting that neither should be capitalized, like: Les américains.....Lazulilasher (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I believe "Pieds-noirs" would be the correct form, given that noir in this context is an adjective. See: Usage des majuscules Vrac (talk) 19:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ya, that does seem to be the rule (majuscule only for the premiere mot, like Eglise catholoqie). Hmm...well the article is currently titled in that manner.....Lazulilasher (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Although noir is an adjective, the rule Pied-Noir will fall under is that for a community of people, not that of a "foot that is black". Depending on the way pied-noir is used in French, it will either capitalize both P & N or neither. Talking about the people, it will be Pied-Noir (pl. Pieds-Noirs). Used as an adjective, it will be lower case: la cuisine pied-noir. I'll keep searching on the French side.

An additional link with some excerpts:

Ecriture du mot Pieds-Noirs choix, sens, usage

II y a des graphies diverses, des évolutions (des erreurs aussi). Le terme sera écrit comme il l'est dans les revues, le plus souvent par les Pieds-Noirs eux-mêmes, et dans les études qui leur sont consa­crées. Le nom prend des majuscules, Pieds-Noirs, dans la mesure où il représente une identité nationale transférentielle. Il sera donc écrit ainsi. Accords de l'adjectif le féminin est «attesté mais rare », d'après le « Larousse ». On note pieds-noirs quand c'est féminin, pieds-noirs ou pied-noir, quand c'est masculin singulier. Le féminin de l'adjectif, illogisme gram­matical, ne sera pas employé, sauf s'il est dans une publica­tion citée (rare).

Source : Pieds-Noirs, identité et culture Nota : Ce texte tiré de l’œuvre ci-dessus indiquée est diffusé à des fins de vulgarisation de la culture Pied-Noir'. Que les auteurs en soient remerciés. Votre serviteur un Pied-Noir d’Hussein-Dey se retrouve dans les propos de ce document.' http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:93HLUTBTV4QJ:www.algeriepyrenees.com/article-16643028.html+f%C3%A9minin+de+pied-noir&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

Here is another link advertising a dictionary: Dictionnaire du français d'Algérie (français colonial, pataouète, français des Pieds-Noirs). http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Ly--My8F8W0J:www.dicoland.com/fr/pied-noir/dictionnaire-du-francais-d-algerie-francais-colonial-pataouete-francais-des-pieds-noirs-1317+orthographe+pied-noir&hl=fr&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

Frania W. (talk) 23:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a bunch of French people once. They were correcting me, so I bet them that no one at the table would be able to conjugate haïr correctly in l'imparfait agreeing with ils. It's ils haïssaient, according to my 501 French Verbs book. Nobody at the table could do it. I'm going to leave this one to you two grammaticians...I'm sure you'll figure it out...:) Lazulilasher (talk) 00:33, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Without telling them why, I have directed many of my French friends to this article. The first thing that hits them is the title with "noir" being lower case. I am not saying that the French should rule en:wiki, but that is their reaction. Frania W. (talk) 13:13, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the work - I'm satisfied that this is as well documented as can be, and apologies if this turned into a tempest in a teapot. I don't remember seeing it this way, but my days of perusing Le monde and noting spelling oddities (between naps) have been regrettably limited.

If this is moved/fixed now, I don't see any reasonable basis for objection.--Gregalton (talk) 13:37, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I work for a French company, so naturally I tossed this around the office. It was definitely "No Consensus", I was even told, "We have no rules for such things" (I am assuming my colleague meant "I don't know the rules for such things"). Regardless, it seems that everyone is O.K. with moving. Thanks for all the input! And, please...stick around! We've got a lot of work to do on this article :) Thanks!! Lazulilasher (talk) 15:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Gregalton, I believe this has been a nice conversation throughout, not a "tempest in a teapot" & I see no reason for you to apologize. Articles in newspapers/magazines often have mistakes, typos & grammatical errors (even Le Monde). In this discussion, I have tried to explain the French grammar point, and I may live to be proven wrong (then it will be my turn to say mea culpa!); that's why I have asked some of my French friends to take a peek. The French often make a parallel between "Pied-Noir" and the "Black Feet" Indians, which they always capitalize because considered to be a "Nation". Would you lower case "black" or "feet" in "Black Feet"? Anyway, I shall go along with the decision Greg, Lazu & les autres come up with, and I believe that if/when we come up with a tight-proof argument, we'll all be willing to change. Frania W. (talk) 15:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That makes me feel better that no-one can agree. Thanks to all the contributors - how refreshing to hear actual conversation/questions rather than bizarre guerre de redaction over trifles.

And of course, styles change - I'm one of those who prefers "Mme. le Juge" over "la Juge", even though the latter seems to have carried the day. Soit.--Gregalton (talk) 15:31, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Not too pile on the love-fest, but I agree with Frania--this was an interesting conversation. I learned a lot and even struck up conversations with people In Real Life about this. If we ever do hear the "official" version from the Authority we can always move again. That's reason 5,403 why Wikipedia is better than real-life: you can undo your mistakes :) Lazulilasher (talk) 16:27, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Someone I have worked with intensively in France is a chartiste = a graduate of the École des Chartes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Nationale_des_Chartes I have contacted him & put the question to him together with others on separate debates. He spends most of his time in the south of France as a "recluse" (writer), so it may take time before he returns to me. Although his answer can be of value only as an argument for the French, it will be interesting to know how the French do, or rather, should handle the expression. Frania W. (talk) 16:58, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

UNDENT: Ok, per this discussion I'm going to move the page to Pied-Noir.....thanks for everyone's input! Lazulilasher (talk) 02:12, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Next Steps

So, let's us start looking at the next step. The article was run through FAC, although I withdrew it because it needed a lot of work. Anyway, for those interested, there withdrawn nomination is [4]. So, I thought I'd get started by trying to remove extraneous words (some which inadvertently throw in POV). Let's see what we can do. I'm concerned about POV, because I worry I have inherent bias on this issue and am trying to write in a more neutral tone...let me know what you guys think....Lazulilasher (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Proposal: Also, because it was commented that the text is rather wordy--and Popular Culture sections and Notable People lists are generally frowned upon, I propose removal of those two sections. Also, I am considering cutting the "Origin" of the Pied-N/noir as well as 1.) the origin is mostly conjecture/anecdotal and 2.) I am having trouble finding a reliable source saying one thing or the other....any thoughts on cutting those 3 sections? Lazulilasher (talk) 18:05, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Also, note that I placed a copy of the FAC nomination (withdrawn) on my userspace so that we can look at the comments and make notes on them but do not harm the actual archive. It is located here. Lazulilasher (talk) 19:01, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Origin of term

Criticism about the two explanations included in the text

1. If the first were right, indigenous population would have used the term continually since the origins to 1962. But they've still have named Europeans "Roumis", making reference to Romans, who occuppied North Africa during centuries.

2. Another clue is the term metropolitan French people, especially in the Army, used to name Algerian Europeans to laugh at them: "Arbicot", when they name Muslims "Bicots".

3. The story of sailors have something true but only a couple of historiography papers may be taken into account: since most sailors working in the coal roams of ships sailing between Algeria and France were natives of Algeria, one has found in old logbooks it was question of "these black feet who soil the deck..."

4. The story of "colonists" who were supposed to wear polished shoes is amazing. Most, most people who settled in Algeria first were not colonists: a colonist is somebody who owns a property and exploit it. In 1956, the famous sociologist (left wing and former Resistance soldier) Germaine Tillon made a precise study of Algeria population: only 2% of Europeans were "colonists", much less than in metropolitan France. Most settlers were very poor people who came in Algeria as they could have gone to the USA as well. Therefore they were far to wear polished shoes...

5. In fact the only serious thesis comes from the news magazine "L'EXPRESS", very involved in favor of the independence. An article written in the mid fifties described sarcastically Europeans of Algeria as lazy rich people who were exploiting muslim natives ; and the author compared them with the Black Feet American Natives, supposed (according to famous cartoon author Hergé in his album Tintin in America) to take benefit lazily of oil laying under their lands, playing cards and drinking...

The term Pied-Noir was therefore imagined by some metropolitan French intellectuals to laugh at French of Algeria. Quick to retort, the Algiers Students Union took the term as a challenge. But nobody among the population used the term which was discovered once back to metropole in 1962. Europeans of Algeria named themselves Algerians like an American born in Texas would say Texan or they more simply used the City from which they were native: Algerois for Algiers, Oranais for Oran, Constantinois for Constantine ; like an American born in New York would say a NewYorker

It was and still is a very pejorative term as Neger for instance to name African Americans

Indeed. It is quite obviously a pejorative term for "them" from "over there" - i.e. from the "wilderness" of Africa. You know... like aborigines, natives, bush-men... savages. Injuns. Black Feet being particularly appropriate as a pejorative as the term also implies filth. As opposed to connotations of labeling someone Apache, Navajo or Mohican.--109.175.104.179 (talk) 10:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Notable Pieds-Noirs

I just removed this section from the article per its Peer Review. The goal is to create a separate List article containing this information.

• Louis Althusser, philosopher
• Alexandre Arcady, film director, father of Alexandre Jouan-Arcady, film director
• Jacques Attali, economist, writer
• Jean-Pierre Bacri, actor and screenwriter
• Jean-Claude Brialy, Nouvelle Vague actor
• Albert Camus, author, Literature Nobel Prize in 1957
• Robert Castel, actor
• Alain Chabat, actor, film director
• Étienne Daho, singer
• Jacques Derrida, philosopher
• Liane Foly, singer
• Marcel Cerdan, boxer, middle weight world champion, born at Sidi Bel Abbes in Algeria but lived in Morocco
• Annie Fratellini, circus clown
• Nicole Garcia, actress and film director
• Tony Gatlif, filmmaker
• Marlène Jobert, actress and author
• Edmond Jouhaud, highly-decorated general who broke with president Charles de Gaulle on Algerian policy
• Alphonse Juin, Marshal of France, chief of French Army in Italy (1943-44)
• Jean-François Larios, footballer
• Enrico Macias, singer
• Jean Pélégri, author
• Emmanuel Roblès, author
• Yves Saint-Laurent, couturier

Massu's threat

I think it needs to be made more clear who Massu was threatening and how he could have had so much control over events in Paris. Something concise (a sentence or two) probably needs to be said here about the shrinking French empire, the defeat at the Battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1954 and its effect on French politics. This would put Massu and Algeria into a broader context that makes the threat more understandable. Finetooth (talk) 05:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Finetooth, you have come to the rescue as I was procrastinating on copy-editing this beast of an article. Please accept my gratitude. Ok, you have raised another point which I did not consider (the first point was "what has happened to the pieds-noirs since repatriation"). I have access to good library network, so I am attempting to find a good book. The article's original research was almost exclusively gleaned from piecing together information available on GoogleBooks.com (which only lets you see about 1-4 at a time due to copyright restraints). Lazulilasher (talk) 00:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Origin of Term Criticism?

Hi, User:Brianboulton left me a note concerning a number of edits that keep appearing (added by an IP and then User:Mauvaisegrain. The edits regard criticisms surrounding the origin of the term. Although I feel that criticism may, in fact, be warranted, I am slightly concerned that some of the information appears to be Original Research. I have removed the edits already, twice, over the last month or so. Therefore, I do not want to remove again before we have a discussion. Other uses have removed the info, but, hopefully Mauvaisegrain will come here and speak to us. I tried to source some of the added info (in an earlier version there was a mention of an author), but only came up with references to the author, not an actual piece of research material. L'Express is mentioned, but I did not have access to archives. A number of the points do appear relatively valid, so I have asked Mauvaisegrain for sources.... Lazulilasher (talk) 23:52, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Please see extended discussion regarding this issue here. Lazulilasher (talk) 00:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is what I just removed from the article that Mauvaisegraine added earleir today. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

---

Several explanations are to contest the term Pied Noir has been actually used during the 130 years when Algeria was a part of France.

1.If the term Pied Noir had actually very old origins, it would mean indigenous population would have used the term continually since the settlement to 1962. But in fact natives still have named Europeans "Roumis", making reference to Romans, who occuppied North Africa during centuries. There is no memory any Muslim has ever used this term "Pied Noir" before the Independence in 1962.

2. Another clue is the term metropolitan French people, especially in the Army, used to name Algerian Europeans to laugh at them: "Arbicot", when they name Muslims "Bicots". Ref : my grand-father, lieutenant in French Army in the early twenties.

3. The story of sailors have something true but only a couple of historiography papers may be taken into account: since most sailors working in the coal roams of ships sailing between Algeria and France were natives of Algeria, one has found in old logbooks it was question of "these black feet who soil the deck..."

4. The story of "colonists" who were supposed to wear polished shoes is amazing. Most, most people who settled in Algeria first were not colonists: a colonist is somebody who owns a property and exploits it. In 1956, the famous sociologist Germaine Tillon made a precise study of Algeria population: only 2% of Europeans were "colonists", much less than in metropolitan France. Most settlers were very poor people who came in Algeria as they could have gone to the USA as well. Therefore they were far to wear polished shoes...

5. In fact the only serious thesis comes from the news magazine "L'EXPRESS", very involved in favor of the independence. An article written in the mid fifties described sarcastically Europeans of Algeria as lazy rich people who were exploiting muslim natives ; and the author compared them with the Black Feet American Natives, supposed (according to famous cartoon author Hergé in his album Tintin in America) to take benefit lazily of oil laying under their lands, playing cards and drinking...

The term Pied-Noir was more seriously imagined by left wing metropolitan French intellectuals to laugh at French Algerians. Quick to retort to this denigration, the Algiers Students Union took the term as a challenge. Nevertheles almost nobody among the population used this term which was discovered once back to the metropole in 1962.

Europeans of Algeria named themselves Algerians like an American born in Texas would say Texan or they more simply used the City from which they were native: Algerois for Algiers, Oranais for Oran, Constantinois for Constantine ; like an American born in New York would name himself a NewYorker

It has to be knewn "Pied Noir" was and still is a very pejorative term as Neger for instance to name African Americans.

--Mauvaisegraine (talk) 21:09, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I finally got ahold of the big Le Robert Dictionnaire Historique de la langue francaise, which states that the first use of the term was 1901 referencing sailor's who worked in coal-rooms (causing black feet). Usually, these sailor's where Algerian, thus the term meant "Algerian" (pejoratively) until 1955 when it began to refer to French born in Algeria. According to Le Robert, the word has been the source of various "Fantaisistes" etymologies. Now that I finally have a good library, I also dug through the O.E.D. and found the English def, which refers first known usage in our tongue as The Times in 1962. Lazulilasher (talk) 21:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Algerian deaths

I just read that there were, according to British historian Alistair Horne, around 700.000 Algerian deaths, which is a bit different then the cryptic "at least 153,000 Algerians, with estimates varying due to differing statistical analyses." now in the article -- eiland (talk) 09:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Ya, I was the person that added the phrase about a year ago. If you can cite to a more precise figure, please do include; although, I note that there does appear to be controversy regarding any particular estimate. Kindly, Lazulilasher (talk) 12:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I only have a secondary source, a journalisitic article in Dutch; I dont have Hornes book. I don't think that's sufficient? -- eiland (talk) 10:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

There were actually much more deaths in Algeria. France reports that there was a lower number while Algeria proves that much more Algerians were killed as a result of the war. The large number in the millions that Algeria presents, is still not acknowledged by France unfortunately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.37.18.253 (talk) 08:37, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@175.37.18.253 millions.. right, what about the sources? Esteban Outeiral Dias (talk) 11:54, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Spanish period

this article miss a section about the spanish enclaves in oran, bougie, algiers and mers el kebir >> History of Algeria. this period was just before the french period. Cliché Online (talk) 21:18, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

any comparison to afrikaners?

obvs a similar sort of thing, how come no mention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.217.59.87 (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC) It is a different story. Why would there be any comparison ?.

"roughly 13 percent of the total population" of WHAT?

Does this mean 13 percent of the total French population, or 13 percent of the total Algerian population? From the numbers I guess the latter (the absolute number of 1,400,000 seems too small to form 13 percent of the French population in 1962), but the text is not clear on this. Please correct if you know for sure. -- 77.7.142.53 (talk) 19:49, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

names issue

antique cities should take there antique name. when a reader click on Icosium and find Algiers, there is some thing wrong.
jews are the guys who practice judaism (as a religion), Israelites or hebrews is more adapted to the exode tale (ethnically it's more adapted).
- Dzlinker (talk) 16:50, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

This is your own point of view.

However, sources use the word "Jews", then you don't have to discuss whether word should be used.

197.247.141.23 (talk) 17:00, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

who are you -Dzlinker (talk) 17:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

l'étranger

i know that l'étranger was about the alienation of algerians in paris -- were they, in fact, pieds-noir?

if so, i think it deserves mention. it is surely the most famous depiction. 209.172.25.4 (talk) 21:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

• The central character in the book by Albert Camus is indeed a pied-noir - although one who lives in Algiers in about 1940, well before the Algerian War. His alienation from those around him is presented as the mental disability of an individual rather than being symptomatic of pied-noirs collectively. Camus himself was born in Algeria to a French settler family and is probably the best known of pied-noir writers. As such he should certainly be included in the present article, if he is not mentioned already. Buistr (talk) 23:31, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

thanks for straightening me out! it was so very very long ago that i read it, guess i was bit off in the details.

yes, camus is mentioned in the article. i just thought the book itself was more about natives vs "immigrants", tho. was the guy he got into the fight with/killed ethnic algerian, fellow pied-noir, visiting parisian, what?

time to reread, i guess.... ;) 209.172.25.18 (talk) 05:39, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Certainly a good read - either in French or translation. The nameless victim is identified only as an "arab" i.e. Algerian Muslim. The impression gained from the book is that the two races co-existed peacefully enough in the 1940s but had little real knowledge of each other Buistr (talk) 06:48, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Not only people from European origin

The article is good but the first paragraph says : «Pied-Noir (French pronunciation: ​[pjenwaʁ], Black-Foot), plural Pieds-Noirs, is a term referring to people of French and other European ancestry who lived in French North Africa, namely French Algeria, the French protectorate in Morocco, or the French protectorate of Tunisia, often for generations, until the end of French rule in North Africa between 1956 and 1962.»

The rest of the article include the other non-Muslim communities.

Sepharadi Jews, Christian berbers and Gyspies was called pied-noir too. All non-Muslim people in Algeria who needed to left Algeria for mainland France are called pied-noir. That's why nowadays, since the pied-noir exodus, there is less Jews, Christians and other non-Muslim in Algeria than in other Maghrebi countries. The Algerians Muslim who disagreed with FLN was called harkis.--Monsieur Fou (talk) 08:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

Can somebody provide assistance with this issue (either here or within the linked discussion as long as it is still open). Thanks in advance,--Tuchiel (talk) 17:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

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France's Pied-Noirs in the 1960s and Portugal's Retornados in the 1970s

I'm unsure how and where to appropriately link this, but Portugal experienced a remarkably similar exodus a decade later in the 1970s. See the Wikipedia article about Portugal's Retornados at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processo_Revolucionário_Em_Curso#The_retornados — Preceding unsigned comment added by Walter Dufresne (talk • contribs) 13:37, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Missing Etymology from OED

Hello beautiful editors,

Please add this missing information to the etymology of "Pied Noir -- black feet".

pied noir, n.

Etymology: < French pied noir stoker on a steam ship (1901), former nickname for an Algerian (1917), French person born in Algeria (1955) < pied foot (see pied-à-terre n.) + noir black (see noir adj.). Stokers on Mediterranean steamships, often of Algerian origin, used to walk barefoot in the soot.

Oxford English Dictionary

and further down

pied noir, n.

1961 Times 6 May 9/6 They are the pieds noirs, fiercely proud of this pejorative nickname given them by the metropolitan French.

Oxford English Dictionary

Thank you! I was so confused when I read "black feet" and was speculating about it for half an hour before I logged into OED and got clarity! Other readers, such as myself, would want to know too!

--BughaFan (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Failed verification

@MWD115: some of the content that you added (I haven't checked all of it) has failed verification. Could you please go over what you added recently and check the sources (making sure that they properly support what is attributed to them)? Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 23:48, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Bitton, thanks for bringing this to my attention. I'll go back and review these. MWD115 (talk) 23:25, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Capitalization

For inscrutable reasons based on unknown research someone some years ago decided that it was correct to capitalize not only Pied but also Noir, which is fundamentally wrong twice over. [Larousse https://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/rechercher/Pied-Noir] redirects this spelling to the correct "pied-noir". This is about as authoritative as it gets. It seems the logic was that this is an ethnicity not a foot that is black. Um. Ethnicities are never never never capitalized in French. See: français, russe, algérien, chinois, africain. Countries are capitalized, citizenships are not. Ever. This makes my teeth hurt. The first word of a title (as of this article) is capitalized. ONLY. The article title should be Pied-noir.

Since there is prior discussion about this on the talk page, however erroneous, I will stop correcting this pending some input, but right now would need some fairly major evidence to convince me that Larousse is wrong about this. Elinruby (talk) 21:50, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

@Elinruby: see Talk:Pied-Noir#Lowercase. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell what you are saying. It sounds like you agree with me but think the title cannot be changed. But of course it *could* be. Resistance would be massive to "pied-noir" however, for style reasons. But I don't see why it has to be Pied-Noir. Just WRONG. But I wasn't losing any sleep over it until you reminded me of this. Incidentally, readers of this page may be interested in Regency of Algiers, not that it has anything to do with the question at hand. There were no pieds-noirs until after that period. Elinruby (talk) 17:46, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

@Elinruby: yes, I meant that no one seems to agree to change the title. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Lowercase

Pied-Noir → Pied-noir – Since the title is blocked by renaming and no one seems to agree to change it, and since all, or almost all, other pages in this encyclopaedia maintain capital letters, I have modified this article accordingly, to maintain some consistency. It's undeniable that in French "pied-noir" (and the plural form "pieds-noirs") is never written with capital letters (see https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/pied-noir/60796, https://dictionnaire.orthodidacte.com/article/etymologie-pied-noir, https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/pied-noir and https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieds-noirs). I propose the lowercase; of course, all other pages that maintain capitalisation should also be changed (about this last point, I think I'm one of the very few in this encyclopaedia who cares about consistency between articles; perhaps because it's tedious and time-consuming work). JacktheBrown (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

It can rather easily be changed but is there a local consensus against it is the question. I don't know that I am willing to die on this hil. But nonetheless [5] is what I have to say about this whole thing ;) Elinruby (talk) 18:09, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

• Pluralize as Pied-noirs (like Americans and Kurds)? (Note also MOS:HYPHENCAPS, which discourages capital letters after hyphens.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
  • @BarrelProof: yes, see https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/pied-noir/60796, https://dictionnaire.orthodidacte.com/article/etymologie-pied-noir and https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/pied-noir. However, you wrote "pied-noirs"; it's correct to write "pieds-noirs". JacktheBrown (talk) 23:40, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

    I see, then Pieds-noirs. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:19, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

    I am not confident about whether it should be plural or singular, and am now leaning toward singular. It doesn't seem to exactly be the name of a people in the traditional sense (like Romani, Mandinka, Han Chinese, Sama-Bajau or Sauria Paharia). I also notice it is often derogatory. My impression is that derogatory terms for people are typically singular rather than plural on Wikipedia, such as hunky, beaner, gook. Some demonyms are not plural on Wikipedia, such as Hoosier and Carioca. Possibly those two are singular because those articles are written to be primarily about the terms rather than about the people described by the terms, and that might also explain the singular titles for articles about pejorative terms. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    Struck the "leaning" part of it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    It's not derogatory. M.Bitton (talk) 15:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    Dictionary.com says "Often Disparaging", and Collins says "often derogatory". The Oxford English Dictionary is quoted above here on this Talk page as quoting Times (presumably London Times) in 1961 calling it "this pejorative nickname". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    This is another proof that dictionaries are in many respects extremely limited. If "Pied-Noir" is or was considered derogatory, then why do they use it themselves and why did the OAS use it while addressing them? M.Bitton (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

It is possible that at some point WikiProject Algeria, if there is or was one, reached a consensus about this at some point. I just took a look at WP:MOS but it does not seem to make any pronouncements at all about Algeria. Which is possibly wise. I know a little about the place, but the little I know is pretty French. Where/When was it decided that the article title should be capitalized? Nobody is speaking up, shrug Elinruby (talk) 03:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

R_Prazeres or M.Bitton may wish to comment, I am not certain. But one of them may know for sure and it doesn't seem like anyone here bites. Elinruby (talk) 04:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Judging by some English dictionaries & encyclopedias, it seems to be lowercase, just like in French. Also without a hyphen, apparently, and it seems even the first letter is lowercase (when it's not a title or at the beginning of a sentence). E.g.:

• Collins dictionary lists it and shows it as lowercase ([6]).
• Several Oxford publications also use it in lowercase, e.g.:
  • The New Oxford American Dictionary (unfortunately behind a paywall, but copy-pasting entry: "noun (plural pieds noirs pronounced same) a person of European origin who lived in Algeria during French rule, especially one who returned to Europe after Algeria was granted independence.")
  • The Oxford Encyclopedia of the Modern World ([7], partly behind paywall but rest of the entry uses it in both all-lowercase and in italic font, pieds noirs).

There are various books that seem to follow the same usage (e.g. "pied noir(s)" in [8] and [9]), but admittedly there are at least some that do it otherwise (e.g. "Pieds-Noir(s)" in this), so there may be some leeway, if desired.

I hope that's helpful, R Prazeres (talk) 16:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here are[10][11][12] some RS about the subject that use "Pied-Noir". M.Bitton (talk) 17:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm guessing this is a loanword that's rarely used outside of this (relatively) narrow topic and thus there's isn't strong agreement on how to treat it. If easier, it might be worth picking a standard for this article and then adding a brief footnote in the lead about variable capitalization. R Prazeres (talk) 18:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

• Is Pied-Noir an English proper noun? M.Bitton (talk) 14:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
  • No, I don't think so, at least not in French. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

    Does "Pied-Noir" (in English) refer to anything other than Pied-Noir? M.Bitton (talk) 17:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

    It's an alternate term for the Native American people of the Blackfoot Confederacy or the Sihasapa – apparently a term still in use. See Blackfoot language#Language variations. It may also occasionally be used for Malbec. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    That may or may not be the case for "Black Foot", but as far as I know, the term Pied-Noir doesn't refer to anything other than Pied-Noir. M.Bitton (talk) 14:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    Did you read Blackfoot language#Language variations? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    Yes and that doesn't change anything. "Pied-Noir" (when used in English sources as a loanword) refers specifically to Pied-Noir. M.Bitton (talk) 15:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    More correctly, lowercase "pied-noir" and "Pied-noir" in English only refer to the pied noir of our article, but when capitalized, especially in older sources, may refer to the Blackfoot people; that's rare in English though. Older sources also sometimes refer to "Cercosporella Foot Rot of Winter Cereals" as "Pied noir des céréales" (no hyphen); also "Hector A. Pied-noir" and "at Pied-noir". The "Pied-Noir" capitalization is quite rare. Dicklyon (talk) 16:06, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I've see the alternate meaning used at, for example, Government of Canada websites. In French, though. The English version says Blackfoot. So this is in at least some level of current use, but for what is clearly a separate group.Elinruby (talk) 05:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

• • Why are you looking at older sources? M.Bitton (talk) 16:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

    People sometimes read old documents and look at resources like Wikipedia to try to understand them, and Wikipedia tries to include historical information rather than just discussing what is most current and up-to-date. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  • No. I am just back from a really deep dive in the English and French MOS. Neither of them address anything at all about the entire continent of Africa, as far as I can tell. So shame on us. However. The Canadian Encyclopedia uses "Pied-Noir" as a translation of the name of indigenous Blackfoot Nation (Note toggle button on the upper right to switch from English to French) My question is: is this a derogatory term? MOS seems to say that if it is derogatory, then it should not have an article at all. I do not think that it is *that* derogatory, but you tell me. Back in the history of the article, somebody deleted the term. I found one dictionary that uses capitals, and it's the Oxford Reference, which we have to count. Oh and I just found an instance of this in the highly respectable Globe and Mail.

Uses of the word in English as lower-case: Oxford English Dictionary, New York Times, Wiktionary (both English and French), Aeon.

The French Wikipedia MOS does not address Algeria at all and neither does the English. The English MOS says that if there is an anglicized loanword we should use it. But there isn't. As to the question about proper nouns: I am not certain who will be responding to this, so I hope it will not sound condescending if I explain this. Speakers of Arabic are quite likely, for example. A proper noun is just a schoolteacher word for a name.

"Wikipedia" is a proper noun. (Un nom propre, in French) But "Wikipedians" is not. Rather, it is a descriptor, like "Algerians" or "Filipinos" or "housecats" or "coin". Anyone reading this is probably a Wikipedian. But is *not* themselves "Wikipedia". BTW, "Pied-noirs" is simply wrong and gives me a headache. Once upon a time I failed spelling tests for this. May I point out that the plural of "Governor-General" fr: gouverneur-général becomes List_of_governors_general_of_Canada and fr:Liste des gouverneurs généraux du Canada? Hope that helps. Elinruby (talk) 18:55, 12 April 2024 (UTC)t

A proper noun is just a schoolteacher word for a name I think it's a bit more complicated than that.[13] M.Bitton (talk) 19:06, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

not really. There is only one Seattle. Even if there are several places named Paris, in each case, "Paris" is the name of the thing, with a greater or lesser precision. Speaking from here on the Pacific coast I might include distant suburbs, I suppose. Or is it "school-teacher" you object to? "Grammarian" is a little more correct, but I was trying not to sound pompous to Americans, who never get taught any formal grammar at all. Elinruby (talk) 19:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

But thanks for the link. Probably I should have just gone that route in the first place. I am out. Elinruby (talk) 19:18, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Not for anything, but there is a significant difference between "name", a broad term, and "proper name", the latter being interchangable with "proper noun". An example would be the "name" of the piece of furniture in which you sit to eat your meal, which is "chair", a "common name". P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 19:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)o

Um, no. Your chairs have unique names? I think not. I really don't think so, and I have just spent hours on the standards for diactitical marks so I am pretty much off to seek the sunshine. But many are the ways in which I have been known to misunderstand something, so hey ypu could be right. Could you please provide an example of a chair that has its own unique name? Like Susan or Fred or Microsoft? I will check it out when I come back tonight. Thanks. I just came back to link Pied-Noir as a translation of Blackfoot. Elinruby (talk) 19:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

The word "chair" is the common name of the furniture on which we sit to eat supper. Perhaps there are some who name their chairs, but I'm not one of them. I do know people who have proper names for their automobiles (automobile, auto, car, these are common names for a type of vehicle). One guy named his car "Lizzie", which is a "proper name". Here you go; this explains it. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 19:59, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, ever since about 2008, which was when the title and running text were changed to the proper noun phrase, "Pied-Noir", here on the "English" Wikipedia, consensus has been to think of this title as a proper noun phrase. Since there does not seem to be a lot about this in the WP Manual of Style, ("Names for peoples and cultures, languages and dialects, nationalities, ethnic and religious groups, demonyms, and the like are capitalized,) whether or not to continue to think of it that way might be best decided by a local consensus such as in this move request discussion. It probably should stay a proper noun phrase similar to the Blackfoot Confederacy, although to be honest I'm neutral on the subject and would be satisfied either keeping it a proper noun phrase or not. That and whether or not it is considered a derogatory term should be aided by the term's usage in reliable sources. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 20:54, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

May I please gently suggest that you double-check your link to "proper name"? It redirects to "proper noun", which is exactly my point. So why are you trying to explain this to me again? [14] you also appear to be under the impression that "pied-noir" is an ethnicity, which it is not. "Immigrant" or "settler" is a more analogous term. There is no cultural homogeneity implied, regardless of the hypothetical pnthropomorphism of inanimate mass-produced objects. Elinruby (talk) 01:29, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

And may I please gently suggest that you check the indents? My response above yours was actually to editor M.Bitton, who asked about whether or not the title phrase was an English proper noun. The title phrase has been a proper noun phrase on the English WP for more than 15 years. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 02:01, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

so you are again emphasizing that this is the English language Wikipedia. Yes and? I am *quoting* the English-language Wikipedia. Have you not noticed this? It is a quote from the Manual of Style of the English-language Wikipedia, provided as a rationale for the original erroneous redirect for some reason. If you have a problem with the English language Manual of Style, this is not the time or place to debate it. It says that we should, in this case, apply the French capitalization conventions. Quote explicitly. In the rationale for the erroneous redirect you say is 15 years old. Apparently somebody thought "pieds-noirs" was an ethnic group. Apparent you do also. You should probably check that. Because it is not. Elinruby (talk) 02:57, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

You appear to have a problem understanding me. I'm just answering questions, and I'm neutral as to the capitalization. I'm not talking about the redirect, as I haven't checked its age. You asked Where/When was it decided that the article title should be capitalized? Nobody is speaking up, shrug, and I answered you that in 2008 with [this edit] the capitalization of both "Pied" and "Noir" in this article title and in running text was begun. Before that, the article had been created in the French style of "Pied-noir" as the title and "pied-noir" in running text. I think it was 2007 when it became "Pied-noir" in running text, and then in 2008 the capitalization of "Pied-Noir" had begun. I just checked the Pieds-Noirs redirect's creation date; it was made in May of 2008 two months after the edit that capitalized "Pied-Noir" in this article. These are not opinions, they are facts found in the editing histories of these pages. I have no opinion and am neutral in regard to how this phrase is capitalized. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 05:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support either singular or plural. The two most common forms in English books are pied-noir and pieds-noirs, consistently for over a half century. Dicklyon (talk) 23:49, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
• From the erroneous redirect currently on the article title we have the following rationale: If the French expression is untranslated (not a loanword), follow French capitalization practice. For French: some expressions are not capitalized at all (e.g., fin de siècle), others have a capitalization of the first word.If the French expression is untranslated (not a loanword), follow French capitalization practice. For French: some expressions are not capitalized at all (e.g., fin de siècle), others have a capitalization of the first word. Since it is the the title of a Wikipedia article, that should be "Pied-noir". In the article body we should be using "pied-noir" Elinruby (talk) 01:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

deep breath. As politely as possible I would like to suggest that I do not feel that I need to have anything "explained" to me. I am not linking to Wikipedia articles that prove me wrong; you are. Your confusion about the terminology involved is unhelpful here and is confusing the issue.

What I wanted to know yesterday was whether there had been edit warring on the page. At this point, given the RfC, it no longer matters. I appreciate the thought, though, I guess, but please do not make any more statements such as "consensus has been to think of this as a proper noun phrase" and then claim to be neutral. As you so helpfully "explained" "A proper noun is a noun that identifies a single entity and is used to refer to that entity (Africa; Jupiter; Sarah" Walmart after I had *just* said precisely that! and you dismissed it and "explained" that no, I *really* meant "proper name". "Proper name" is not a thing. It's really annoying, and we have looped through this several times now. Please process that 2!=3 even if somebody once made a mistake in their sums. Pieds-noirs are not a "single entity".

let's let other people talk, shall we? At a minimum this is a formal request that you refrain from "explaining" anything else to me, please and thank you very much.Elinruby (talk) 05:44, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

I hope you don't mind me asking another question: is there any reason why "Pied-Noir" shouldn't be considered as a loanword? M.Bitton (talk) 17:07, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

Does it make a difference? Wouldn't we use lowercase either way, since it's way more often lowercase in English-language sources? I'm not following all the discussion above, but I don't think I see anyone arguing for uppercase. Dicklyon (talk) 01:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Google Books N'gram Viewer indicates that 'Pied-Noir' is more commonly used than 'Pied-noir. Riad Salih (talk) 04:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

That's a lame comparison; the "Pied-noir" usage is only from "pied-noir" in sentence-initial or sentence-case context, or even title-case while avoid caps after hyphen. The real comparison is here, showing "pied-noir" totally dominant in English. Dicklyon (talk) 15:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The real comparison That's a useless comparison given that ngram doesn't distinguish between a noun and an adjective. M.Bitton (talk) 16:28, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

But MOS:HYPHENCAPS would discourage uppercase after a hyphen. This would especially be the case when sources are mixed. (And Ngrams might be getting some uppercase from title-case headlines, which we should discount.) —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The rule doesn't apply to proper names. M.Bitton (talk) 15:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, unless you're saying Noir by itself is a proper name, but I don't think you're claiming that. See also WP:Manual of Style/Biography § Hyphenation and compounds and WP:Manual of Style/Titles § Hyphenation. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

What I'm saying is that "Pied-Noir" is a proper name (or at least, I see no reason why it shouldn't considered as such given that it fits the definition). Please see MOS:HYPHENCAPS. M.Bitton (talk) 15:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The effective definition for our purposes is given in MOS:CAPS: "In English, capitalization is primarily needed for proper names, acronyms, and for the first letter of a sentence.[a] Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia." Dicklyon (talk) 00:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Determining which version is the most commonly used in English sources is no easy task. M.Bitton (talk) 15:07, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that the book n-gram stats are not perfectly compelling? I see no possible ambiguity. Per the criterion at MOS:CAPS, this is clearly not a proper name. Dicklyon (talk) 16:06, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

1) What ngram stats are you referring to: the one that you supplied or the ones that were supplied by Riad Salih? 2) What makes it compelling (please elaborate)? M.Bitton (talk) M.Bitton (talk) 16:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

1) how about these stats? and 2) It's compelling because it makes it clear that we're nowhere near the MOS:CAPS criterion of "consistently capitalized" in sources. and 3) are you seriously saying you think this is a proper name, or just trolling? (I see you said on your talk page "Ha ha ha (I'm just playing devil's advocate)" about this). Dicklyon (talk) 22:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The same as before, ngram just picks up the words with total disregard about whether they are quoted in French in an English source as nouns or adjectives. It's much better to check how it's spelled in the reliable sources that are about the subject (such as the ones that I quoted above). M.Bitton (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

are you seriously saying you think this is a proper name, or just trolling please comment on the content. M.Bitton (talk) 22:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Of those 3 you linked, the middle one, on the cuisine, mostly uses Pieds-noirs, italicized as if French, though its capitalization is clearly wrong for that, and also has "the pied noirs adopted the name with pride" without italics, that is, lowercase in English with English-like pluralization; plus a bunch of other stuff especially for the cuisine they call La Cuisine Pied Noir. Clearly not a good source for linguistic style. Anyway, I don't see what your point is about the usage as an adjective; we don't downcase proper names used as adjectives (e.g. Algerian cuisine), so how does finding some of them as adjectives matter? Dicklyon (talk) 22:37, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

What about the others? M.Bitton (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The others use caps as you said. I can list twice that many using lowercase in short order, if that's worth anything. But it's not. Dicklyon (talk) 00:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

is there any reason why "Pied-Noir" shouldn't be considered as a loanword?, by which I think is meant "a fully assimiliated loanword that we treat as English, like 'rendezvous' and 'taco' and 'parka'"}}: Yes, there are several. It is not a word, in the general sense, but an ethnonym, a name. (That it's derived from everyday words that remain "transparent" to many of us is immaterial; the North American Blackfoot people are not written "blackfoot", and that example is obviously extremely pertient here given what "Pied-noir" means). It has no currency in everyday English. It is very frequently put in italics as a foreignism in English-language publications (and usually given a translation) even in specialist academic material about Algeria, and French demographics, and ethnicities.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

It's still a noun. Does being an ethnonym prevent it from being a loanword or simply a loan if you prefer (like À la carte)? M.Bitton (talk) 23:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Guys, if you need it, here is the page in French: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieds-noirs. JacktheBrown (talk) 13:22, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

More n-gram stats without smoothing pied-noir with and without hyphen, pies-noirs with and without hyphen. With the smoothing off, one easily finds that the bulk of the capitalized occurrences in English books is from a couple of 2015 books, and that the forms without the hyphen used to be much more common, but now with the hyphen are about even with them (with lots of fluctuation due to individual books in different years). Dicklyon (talk) 22:24, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment. Whatever decision editors come to in this discussion, this title should be in italics in the same way voir dire is styled. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 09:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

• Comment we've been using the term as a proper name since 2008 and I see no reason not to continue to do so, especially given the fact that it fits the definition and is used as such in multiple RS about the subject. M.Bitton (talk) 14:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is not unusual in Wikipedia for titles to exist "as a proper name" contrary to guidelines for many years. Some of work on finding and fixing such things. The "reason not to continue" "using the term as a proper name" is that this sends a false signal to readers that this is a proper name, and our guidelines specifically say we should not treat things as proper names unless they're capitalized in a substantial majority of English-language sources. So let's fix it. Dicklyon (talk) 15:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  I have yet to read a single valid argument as to why it shouldn't be considered as a proper name (given that it fits the definition). M.Bitton (talk) 16:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not sure which theoretical definition you think it fits, but WP's practical definition is "consistently capitalized" in sources, and it certainly doesn't come close to fitting that one. Dicklyon (talk) 17:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  I think the definition to which editor M.Bitton alludes might be one I've already linked in this discussion, so here it is again... Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Peoples and their languages, which clearly states: "Names for peoples and cultures, languages and dialects, nationalities, ethnic and religious groups, demonyms, and the like are capitalized,". It is also clear in this article that the term "Pied-noir " refers to people. That seems to be the Wikipedia style. Again, I'm not taking sides, I'm just pointing out what is in the MoS. Since the term is hyphenated, it is not a noun phrase, it is simply a one-word, hyphenated proper noun, and so it seems that the correct form according to our own MoS is "Pied-noir " both as title of the article and in the article's content. Again, not !voting, just quoting the style guideline. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 18:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Since you are again "explaining" wrong, I will no longer refrain from saying you that your misunderstanding is mistaken. It does not fit that definition because the pieds-noirs are not an ethnic group.

And yes, you are voting, since you are pronouncing the definition correct. Correct that definition may be, but it is misapplied in this instance. Elinruby (talk) 18:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

the pieds-noirs are not an ethnic group according to whom? M.Bitton (talk) 21:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

According to the demographics of those repatriated from Algeria, spelled out in the article I keep saying you should read. Also, Regency of Algiers (on which I have been doing GA prep sice February) covers the huge role played by North Africa and Algeria in particular as a place of refuge for the Jews of Europe. Then there is the matter of the converted European slaves, who were Danish, Albanian, Corsican, Italian and English. Off the top of my head. A century of colonization would not make all those people "French". Thank you for asking. Elinruby (talk) 22:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I really wish things were that simple, but unfortunately, anyone who dealt with the issue of "ethnic groups" will tell you that it's an extremely complicated subject. M.Bitton (talk) 22:17, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

so you're going to assign people to the group whether they like it or not? The section that I think you should read in particular is "Rapatriés d'Algérie et pieds-noirs" which goes into citizenship, birthplace, ethnicity, and nationality. A section just above discusses French government propaganda. Elinruby (talk) 22:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

so you're going to assign people to the group whether they like it or not? They've already been assigned to a group. M.Bitton (talk) 22:42, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

citation required. You might actually know more about this than I do, but right now you are just making assertions. Elinruby (talk) 23:24, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I didn't ask for a citation when you made the assertion, but that's fine, I'll look for one. Just one question though: would a citation make you change your mind? M.Bitton (talk) 23:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

A good one? Yes, absolutely. And you are right about the mutuality of this. I will look also but I am about to be tied up RL for about six to eight hours, so not immediately. Elinruby (talk) 23:37, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, if you insist; however that quote from the Manual of Style includes all "groups" of people that have a group name, it also applies to nationalities, religious groups, demonyms, and the like, not just ethnic groups. And since you insist, I...

• Support the proposed title Pied-noir and, as an aside, I also support the capitalized "P" in the article's content. The community consensus in the Manual of Style strongly supports this move request. We might also consider natural disambiguation so readers know at a glance who the subjects of this article are, as in Pied-noir people. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 21:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

  There are no Pied-noir people. Which is maybe one quantum of evidence that it is not an ethnonym. Is there another plural ethnonym like Fooians that you cannot transform into Fooian people by singularizing and appending people to it? Mathglot (talk) 04:41, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Was thinking more along the lines of these ngrams. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 08:52, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

If I may make a constructive suggestion: the French article discusses the varying definitions of "repatriated" in various time periods at enormous length and the discussion would benefit if some of participants here read it. If anyone needs help running it through Google Translate, let me know. Elinruby (talk) 18:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

From the list of active participants at WikiProject Linguistics; @Aamri2, Justanotherinternetguy, Warrenmck, and Visioncurve: Elinruby (talk) 20:22, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Shayakraut, InformationvsInjustice, Rashad Ullah, LingLass, and BeKowz: Elinruby (talk) 20:27, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nohat, Francis Tyers, Newroderick895, and Geoking66: Elinruby (talk) 20:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

We have a similar issue on the Hawaiʻi wikiproject, where people take pages like Waikiki and say it's Waikiki in English and Waikīkī in Hawaiian, but that's popular perception and not actually how it works out, and WP:RS can't back that up. My French is rusty but if this:

It's undeniable that in French "pied-noir" (and the plural form "pieds-noirs") is never written with capital letters

is true, and it's not exclusively rendered in English with case caps, then it should be lower case for the second N (and the first we just have to leave as-is due to technical limitations, if I recall). Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 20:28, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Johndburger, JWB, Ihcoyc, Bignole, Rjanag, and Mahagaja: Elinruby (talk) 20:38, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Men, Anypodetos, GPHemsley, Elizium23, and Ffbond: Elinruby (talk) 20:44, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@MacedonianBoy, Swfarnsworth, Mr. Stradivarius, and Irtapil: Elinruby (talk) 20:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Elinruby

Why am I tagged?

Irtapil (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion is stuck on the definition of 'loanword" and "proper noun"and this sounds like a linguistics question to me Elinruby (talk) 21:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

i got your name and all these other from the list of active participants anat WikiProject Linguistics Elinruby (talk) 21:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Codrinb, LWG, Johanna-Hypatia, Fluous, Mattghg, Sasuke Sarutobi, and 0x0077BE:

@Joeystanley: Elinruby (talk) 21:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Snow Rise, Mcmisher, Phinumu, and AudiblySilenced: Elinruby (talk) 21:25, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

This is not the full list but it's approximately the top half, minus somepeople who say they are interested in Elvish and Ancient Egyptian.. My mobile interface is misbehaving, quitting for now. Let's see if that helps. Elinruby (talk) 21:40, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

To editor Warren: it is actually easy to lowercase the first letter of an article title, as in eBay, by use of the {{Lowercase title}} template; however, as I show above, Wikipedia's MoS supports capital "P" both in the title and in running text. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 22:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

you "show" nada sir, please stop doing that. The fact that you make a claim does not demonstrate it's correctness. The capital p should stay in the article title, is all. Elinruby (talk) 22:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

And will you please cease all responses to me, because the community does not agree with you as shown in the guideline, and frankly your responses to me appear to be too much like BADGERING. Thank you for your consideration! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 22:43, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Aren't you both arguing for a capital 'P'? I too support a capital 'P' per MOS:PEOPLELANG: "Names for peoples and cultures, ... nationalities, ethnic and religious groups, demonyms, and the like are capitalized." SMcCandlish agrees. An ethnonym is a name for an ethnic group. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:12, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if I read editor Elinruby correctly, we both agree on the capital "P" in the article title. Our one area of contention appears to be the side issue (which has nothing to do with this title change request) in regard to the use of the capital "P" in the running text of the article's content, which I support but editor Elinruby opposes. Thank you, editor BarrelProof for helping to clarify our differences, which seem to have very little or nothing to do with this move request. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 06:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see – it was me who was mistaken – I didn't spot the difference in running text descriptions. As for running text, regardless of whether this is really an ethnic group or not, my impression is that it fits within the category of "Names for peoples and cultures, ... nationalities, ethnic and religious groups, demonyms, and the like" (and thus it should use capital 'P'), although I suppose that's not something that needs to be settled in order for the RM to be closed. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't see how. Their origins were extremely diverse and apparently some of the Jews had ancestors from the Levant originally so even "European" is too narrow a term. And I question whether "European" is an ethnic group. If it is not, then MoS says to follow French convention. But we are talking about the title here, and in the title the first letter of the first word should be capitalized according to both French capitalization convention and Wikipedia style. Elinruby (talk) 20:02, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

clarifying something: these people were "French" in the sense that they were born in Algeria at a time when the French government considered Algeria to be part of France. 20:06, 19 April 2024 (UTC) Elinruby (talk) 20:06, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

The Corsicans are also "French". M.Bitton (talk) 00:38, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

But "Corsicans" is not the best example, as that is derived from the name of a place – i.e., Corsica. A potentially better example may be Blitz Kids, specifically the capital 'K' of "Kids" (not the capital 'B', since that's derived from the name of an institution). Similarly, New Romantic / New Romantics, which had an RM discussion recorded at New Romantics (song)#Requested move 11 November 2023. I think it doesn't really matter whether it refers to an ethnicity or not – it's the name of a group of people. The guideline refers to "peoples and cultures, ... and the like". If "Pieds-noirs" isn't an ethnic identification, it's still a name for one of the "peoples and cultures, ... and the like". The 'P' should be capped – at least unless it is consistently lowercase in English-language sources (presumably due to the French influence). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 09:04, 20 April 2024 (UTC)'

(much later just noting that I have since looked up Blitz Kids and New Romantics and agree that these are good examples of compound terms that refer to distinct groups of people who are not necessarily of the same ethnicity. There is still a common characteristic though. I think the problem here is defining the group and the two-tier system of French citizenship perhaps was a root cause. The French wikipedia article makes a distinction between the pieds noirs and the repatriated. Not everyone in French Algerian was an actual "citizen" as opposed to a "national" and resentment over that is probably the defining characteristic of the group. These were French citizens in a sense of "citizen" that was denied to most of the Algerian population. Elinruby (talk) 23:18, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

It was only used to highlight the fact that being "French" doesn't prevent you from being something else. M.Bitton (talk) 12:22, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

(ec)I agree that it doesn't have to be an ethnic group but it seems to me they should still share a common characteristic. Somewhere above I gave Washingtonians and Oregonians as examples. But here we have people who have at least one ancestor from some country in Europe, plus some other people who practice a religion. So the common factor is what exactly? "Forty Niners" -- the gold rush people not the football team -- would be a better example, since I for one don't know what a Blitz Kid is. I don't know if that gets us anywhere though. But in this RM we only have to agree on the title, yanno. Elinruby (talk) 09:26, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

merely calling out the IDHT where I see it. Elinruby (talk) 23:21, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I did hear, I just don't agree with you. HAND! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 02:08, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Pieds-noirs, the linguistically and stylistically most defensible form. Where it needs to be pluralized (and a strong argument can be made to do that in the title, to agree with other ethno-cultural group names – but there are some exceptions that probably need to move, e.g. Melungeon), use Pieds-noirs consistently, following the bulk of the better-quality RS in English; singular (and adjective) Pied-noir. This is not an English word/name, but French, so should not be mangled with English syntax and typographic norms (and "Pied[s]-Noir[s]" with an internally capitalized "N" doesn't even suit universal English-writing norms, but is simply something that particular writers and publishers would do while others would do the opposite; our default rule is to not use capitalization that is not actually necessary). Since "Pied-noirs" is not entirely unheard of, this "Franglais" mish-mash should appear as a MOS:BOLDSYN in the lead. Same goes for the broken-French "Pieds-noir" if it can be reliably sourced, which so far it has not been. But they should not thereafter be used by WP as if proper English or proper French.
  For additional evidence, see this Google Scholar search, and ignore the French-language results, just consider the English ones. What we have (for plural forms), in the order in which they appear (at least for me; Google may monkey with that order on a per-request basis) in the first 20 pages of search results (I don't have all day for this) are: pieds-noirs, Pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-Noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-Noirs, PiedsNoirs, Pieds-Noirs, piedsnoirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-Noirs, Pieds-Noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-Noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds noirs but pied-noir as an adjective in the same article, Pieds-Noirs but pied-noir as an adjective in the same article, Pieds-Noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds Noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds Noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-noirs, Pieds-Noirs, Pieds Noirs, Pieds-Noirs, pieds-noirs, Pied-Noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, Pieds-Noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds-noirs, pieds noirs but pied-noir as an adj. in same material. Some skimming examination of this material and the usage within it shows the following patterns: The hyphenation overwhemlmingly dominates. When capitalization is used, capitalizing after the hyphen is optional. (In the rare event of no hyphen, and a capitalized "Pied[s]", then but only then is a capitalized "Noir[s]" actually necessary.) "[P|p]ied-[N|n]oirs" (only one s, at the end) is almost unheard of in professional writing (only occurred once), and "[P|p]ieds-[N|n]oir" (only one s, in the middle) never occurred at all. It is virtually always "[P|p]ieds-[N|n]oirs". When lower-cased, the referent can usually be summarized as "a group of French immigrants to Algeria" or later as "repatriating immigrants from French Algeria back to France, especially particular places like Corsica", or later still as "political separatists or other agitators in Corsica and some other places", and in many cases as "a class of literary and theatrical stereotypes/tropes in modern French fictional works" (especially Camus). But when the meaning is something that could be summed up as "an ethno-cultural group of mixed European, African, and sometimes Jewish ancestry that developed in colonial Algeria; and the diaspora thereof", capitalization is far more likely. However, sometimes the capitalization is avoided in what appears to be an attempt to closely follow French capitalization practice (this is supported further by English writers often putting the term in italics as a foreignism and providing a translation of it). That said, it cannot be entirely ruled out that in a few of these cases there isn't a PoV-pushing dismissive/minimization intent of simply denying them capitalization to imply they are not a real/legit ethno-cultural group. Either way, the rationale for the lower-casing as an ethnic label in English doesn't seem applicable to WP writing. One side point I noticed in skimming past the French-language material is that total lower-casing isn't even universal in French, though it does dominate in that language; while I did see a handful of French "Pieds-noirs", I did not see any French "Pieds-Noirs".
  For these reasons, I have to support Pieds-noirs: It would be (or strongly come off as) an antagonistic PoV exercise to totally lower-case this ethnonym (even if it is largely an exonym) when we do not do this with any other such group (including even other multi-ethnic groups with a French component like the Melungeons, nor ones with other names that are "just words" in one language or another, e.g. the Coloureds of South Africa); the hyphen is virtually required, but a capital after the hyphen is not; and the "Pieds-noirs" form (two ses) is clearly standardized near-unversally, against variants like "Pied-noirs" and "Pieds-noir" (or "Pied-noir" being used as an s-less collective plural, for that matter; rather, it's a singular and an adjective). While a super-strict interpretation of MOS:CAPS could be applied to totally lower-case this, I have to state firmly that ethnonyms are a subject for which we have to apply a common-sense exception (per WP:P&G) to the strictest possible interpretation, otherwise we're going to end with 99.99% of ethnic groups being capitalized with one or two isolates downcased for reasons that to most readers will be indistinguishable from racist hostility by vandals. PS: We already know from a previous RfC that the community has no appetite for forcing lower-case "black" in an ethno-racial sense, and concluded to leave this to consensus on an article-by-article basis as long as it's consistent within an article. So, that is a further strong indication that this should be capitalized, even if we do not need to over-capitalize it as "Pieds-Noirs".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:34, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
• Neutral on capitalisation, but certainly should be plural. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

it is not an ethic group unless "Asian" is an ethnic group. Or in this case "European + Jewish". However it is true that for purposes of the move request it doesn't matter whether it is or isn't, since the Wikipedia style to capitalize the first letter of the article title would over-ride that to my mind.Elinruby (talk) 08:29, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support Pieds-noirs as article title but pieds-noirs in running text. Per ngrams and Google Scholar (limited to Enlish language sources), it is clear that the plural form is the usual form in RSs and this would be consistent with WP:PLURAL. The same evidence also tell us that it is far from consistently capped in any variation. Per WP:NCCAPS and the general advice at MOS:CAPS, we should not be capping this at all. Linguistically, there is no difference between French and English as to what is a proper noun. The difference is that French is more rigorous in only capping proper nouns compared with English, which often caps words derived from proper nous but not used as proper nouns. It is not capped in French. This tells us that it is not inherently a proper noun. Per WP:RACECAPS, we would cap the name of a race of people or ethnic group. This is a reflection that these demonyms are derived from proper names for a nation, region, religion etc - eg French, German or Siek. The subject term is not a race or ethnic group in the conventional sense that would invoke WP:RACECAPS but more akin to white or pom, the former being touched upon by WP:RACECAPS. The Collins definition, noting that the term is "often derogatory" would support the similarity with pom, which is also not consistently capitalised. [15][16][17][18] On the matter of hyphenation, ngram results indicate a preference for the hyphenated form, while Google Scholar indicates the converse. Per MOS:HYPHEN, it would appear that the hyphenated form would be required in French but not (necessarily) in English. It is probable that the hyphenation in English is more of a carry-over from the French rather than a need in English. If one applies the principle to use hyphens when necessary for clarity, the mixed usage would tend to favour dispensing with the hyphen. This is a foreign language term that would be italicised except when considered a loan word. The phrase appears in several prominent English language dictionaries. This would indicate a status as a loan word and that it should probably not be italicised. However, if it is italicised, then hypenation would appear to be necessary in order to conform with the French. This would also confirm the absence of capitalisation in running prose. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support Pieds-noirs as article title but pieds-noirs in running text. Per previous comment, and per the Ethnonym/people test (which I think I just invented): singularize/adjectivize the term and append people – is that in common use? Yes: might be an ethnonym; No : cannot be an ethnonym. E.g.: Corsicans ⟶ Corsican people; Azerbaijanis ⟶ Azerbaijani people; Coloureds ⟶ Coloured people; Manicheans ⟶ Manichean people (not an ethnonym); Arians ⟶ Arian people (not an ethnonym); Ohioans ⟶ Ohioan people (not an ethnonym); Pieds-noirs ⟶ Pied-noir people (not an ethnonym). (And it's not just a missing redirect; see ngrams). Mathglot (talk) 05:07, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Problem

I would also like to point out that this article has problems with the singular and plural forms of the terms "Pied-Noir" (singular form) and "Pieds-Noirs" (plural form); some sentences may require the singular form instead of the plural form, while others may require the plural form instead of the singular form. Several corrections may be necessary. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:39, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT. Dicklyon (talk) 00:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

@Dicklyon: I think (with all due respect to other users) I'm one of the bravest users of this encyclopedia, especially after I stopped asking questions at the help desk (now one every two months). I just wanted to report the problem here. JacktheBrown (talk) 02:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, you've been pretty bold, I agree. Dicklyon (talk) 02:09, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I am notorious for rushing in where angels fear to tread and I given the reluctance to read definitions that is in display in this RM I would myself hesitate to correct anything in this article.Elinruby (talk) 18:45, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Cf. my big block of source-usage review in the thread above this. The plural is overwhelmingly Pieds-noirs and the singular (and adjective) Pied-noir (capitalization questions aside), with Pied-noirs barely ever attested, and Pieds-noir unattested, across a pretty big number of high-quality (and English-language) sources.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:54, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

I did see it and thank you for the thoughtful answer.

I read MoS as saying that for words derived from French, a loanword should follow the conventions for English, Otherwise, untranslated French that is not a loanword or a proper noun should follow French-language conventions. Is that right? I note that you are the primary author of that MoS page. If this descriptor does in fact fall under French conventions, then both "pied" and "noir" would absolutely take an s in the plural. Adjectives are modified by their nouns and take on their number and gender. There is simply no question about that. I haven't seen this particular term enough to have strong feelings about whether the hyphenated form is "correct". I myself as a French speaker am inclined to hyphenate it, in order to clarify that we are not talking about actual feet, but I am not maintaining that this is the One True Answer, and did not do so consistently in the discussion above, mostly because I am lazy, usually in a hurry, and grinding my teeth over the capitals not the hyphen. It is clear I am talking about the topic of this discussion on this page. I realize that I am basing these statements on French grammar and not on sources, but I do think it is good to be grammatical, and that we should not necessarily discount the Wikipedia effect on the sources. It is possible that people are capitalizing because they think we know something about this ;) Also, other people here have already looked at sources but it's been quite a long time since I said, further up the page, that iff the question is what the French conventions are, then Larousse = OED pretty much. I hope that helps someone somehow; that's all I've got.

Some people do appear to believe that it is a loanword or a proper noun however. I think that you said that it is not a proper noun (please correct me if I am wrong about that, and tell me what you do in fact think) but I am especially interested in whether you think it is a loanword, if you don't mind explaining that. I have been saying no, because while it's obviously imported from French, it is used in only this one niche context. And the reactions here indicate that many if not most English speakers have never encountered it. But that part I possibly could be wrong about. Similarly, it seems to me that we are talking about a group of people, sure. but not an ethnic group or a group of residents of a particular city as in Washingtonians or Oregonian. I think the definition you gave above for the group is pretty much correct, but I do not claim any particular expertise about them,

What do you think?

Incidentally, I don't think American Blacks are a good analogy, since French speakers would have no expectation of capitalization, nor association of it with personhood the way an English speaker might, but urging caution on that front is a better argument than most as these things go. It is true that the vast majority of French speakers would have some familiarity with the English language, especially any that wind up reading this article. Elinruby (talk) 04:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)