Talk:Normanhurst Boys' High School

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• Might be worthwhile discussing the school's Jenolan Caves excursion.... 49th consecutive year this year?
• What about mentioning Richard Pybus as a notable alumni? According to a 1999 article which appeared in the "Sydney Morning Herald" - "Players go back to fielding school, hoping to catch on" [12/11/1999]. It says "....Pakistan coach Richard Pybus - who was born in England, reared in Australia (he went to Normanhurst Boys' High in Sydney)..."
  • Can you find out the details of the article? (title, reporter, date of publication etc... all the stuff you'd need to reference this). -- saberwyn 23:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Yeah. The reference might be needed. Also, the Jenolan Caves should be mentioned, as I don't know any school that has such a strong year camp tradition 58.106.138.11 06:01, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
      • This is the best I found, without actually having to pay a subscription for the SMH archive; Usenet Discussion

--220.237.53.152 18:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

If at some point Jenolan Caves gets added it has no longer been consecutive due to COVID in 2020 disrupting it and not sure it will resume due to the teacher who primarily organised it retiring 139.218.140.117 (talk) 10:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Jenolan Caves

Yes, it's amazing it has been going on for so long. I guess I was on Camp #5 in 1962. Seem to remember we had a pretty good time. Rumiton 10:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The biannual "Jelly Shuffle"

What was it? I never heard of it, but several teachers pointed out that I spent much of my time asleep, so maybe I missed it. Rumiton 14:09, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• I don't know, but no event by that name or possible description happened during my six years at the school. -- saberwyn 09:57, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Thats the first I've ever heard of the "Jelly Shuffle". If it existed during your time, I assure you that it was dead by the new millenium. Can you tell us more? --220.237.53.152 18:40, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The "goat" incident

It was previously suggested that some mention should be made with regard to an incident that happened on one of the jenolan excursions, regarding the death of an infant goat. While it was previously rejected on the grounds of bringing the school into disrupute, I have now reconsidered my view on the matter. Considering that Wikipedia is not supposed to be a school advertisement notice board as the page now currently resembles.

Hence I now think some mention of the incident, a major news item of the time (covered by various media), should be made. Possibly under the new jenolan caves section? Thoughts? Opinions?

• I agree we should explore this. I was a student at the time of the incident, and it was a big news item of the time. Can anybody find archived articles

• If you could find a reliable, independant source on the incident, whack it in, but DON'T put it in until its sourced. -- saberwyn 01:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

on this? --210.49.189.243 15:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I have a source: http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/parlment/hansart.nsf/V3Key/LA19960618015 Turns out it wasn't the Jenolan excursion though (unless multiple goats have become victims of Normo students) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.111.145.184 (talk) 06:14, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

It was class of 1995 and it was broken Hill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.114.240.152 (talk) 14:08, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

I was there. It happened in Broken Hill in 1996. That was the incident that got the cadet supervisor Mr Plant fired. 1.127.106.181 (talk) 05:48, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

NBHS student Userbox

If anyone is interested, I created a Userbox for past and present NBHS students:

NBHSThis User currently attends or attended Normanhurst Boys' High School.

Cdlw93 10:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Attempting to provide ref for Richard Shine

I tried to put this URL in but failed. http://www.bio.usyd.edu.au/Shinelab/shine/shine.html There is no Wikilink. Any advice happily received. (Thanks for the Userbox. I grabbed it.) Rumiton 12:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Fixed now I hope. (Had the / round the wrong way.) Rumiton 10:42, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Correct me if I missed something, but I wasn't able to find any actual reference to NBHS on the web page you linked to. Also, these types of references should be published in reliable, third-party sources as per WP:V. Please reply here or on my Talk page so we can sort this out. Cdlw93 08:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Ian Dicker, etc

The founding principal was Tom Pearson. The school song ('Boldly let us raise the chorus ...') and school hymn ('Sons of Normanhurst uniting ...') were written by the school librarian, Ian Dicker. He was there during my years as a pupil, 1965-'70. I haven't added these as I don't know if the song and hymn have changed. I can furnish the lyrics, I think. They were frequently sung in my day. The school song referred to the Delphic origin of the school motto. Also on the matter of notable old boys, one from the 1960s became a famous heroin importer -- front-page news. The Wiki article makes it sound like the school has an unbroken tradition of sports-loving. This was far from the case in the 1960s. See http://wilsonsalmanac.blogspot.com/2003/05/normanhurst-boys-high-school-seniors.html for a historical photo.Alpheus (talk) 00:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey there. That seems like some graet info to have, but we really need some more references, especially for the songs etc. If you can find them that would be great. Cheers, Cdlw93 (talk) 01:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I suppose the school archives would have the info about Pearson, Dicker and the song and hymn. I used to have copies of Phoenix, the school magazine, from 1965-70 but these were lost. If I can find this info from friends I will post here. Happy 50th birthday, Normo. Alpheus (talk) 01:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

HSC Rankings

Does anyone out there have acces to sources listing the HSC rankings, particulary for 2007 and 2009. Both are stated in the article, but there's been a bit of back-and-forth over whether Normanhurst came second in the region in those years, or third to Barker College. -- saberwyn 20:16, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I have updated the 2009 ranking with a citation and have removed the 2007 information which is no longer relevant. Cdlw93 (talk) 06:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Connect

I've removed the text from the Co-Curricular Activities section relating to Connect.

As with all public schools, Normanhurst BHS is a secular school. Connect is not directly affiliated with nor administered by the school. Therefore, it's not a Co-Curricular Activity of the school. Perhaps it would be best to put it in in some church article? I'm not sure, but it doesn't belong here. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 07:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The Normanhurst Boys High School christian group is at Normanhurst Boys High School and does not belong at warawee bowls club, the kings school, parliamnet house or any other ludicrous place but Normanhurst Boys High School. The Normanhurst Boys High School Christian group belongs in the Normanhurst Boys High school page. It is listed as a co-curricular activity despite it not technically being one, simply besause tiny technicalities are ignored to make way for common sense. Its not officially run by the school but the school unofficially runs it. If its not let back on the Normanhurst Boys High School then so be it, but this is quite silly. Samonw27 (talk) 09:38, 20 April 2012 (UTC)samonw27

This is not a technicality that I would be willing to ignore. For a co-curricular activity to be associated with the school, the school has to be officially run by the school. Otherwise, what would be the problem with bands run by students separate to the school? They might use school facilities to practise, but does this qualify them to be included in the school's article? I don't think so. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 10:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Editwarring with me isn't an effective way to put your case. Per WP:BRD, you've been bold, I've reverted, we're now at the discussion phase. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 10:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I have put ISCF as a new heading to get past technicalities of co curricular groups. Samonw27 (talk) 10:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)samonw27

also according to the definition of co-curricular, there is a teacher employed by the school who runs the group, which compliments the school curriculum of religious education even in secular schools. but if a separate heading works better than alright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samonw27 (talk • contribs) 10:42, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

If we are talking technically then the school doesn't actually employ a teacher to run the connect group. The person (who technically isn't qualified at all) is paid a wage by two local churches (Thornleigh Community Baptist Church and St Stephens Normanhurst). However, I have no sources for this (unless speaking with the religious education "teacher" counts)and am not adding this information to the article (also there seems to be no mention of the connect group currently in the article). SailorFox (talk) 12:41, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

May 2019

Editoraust (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly adding content which sounds promotional. For instance, "The school ranks 12th in Australia in 2018", with a reference, was changed to "The school has an outstanding recent tradition of academic excellence and possess challenging entry standards, ranking 12th in Australia in 2018". Also this, which is unsourced: "Supreme Court Justice Ian Harrison has said of The Honourable Justice Peter McClellan, both of whom attended the school together, that, "the school was instrumental in assisting your Honour to overcome adolescent difficulties you had with low esteem, lack of confidence and self doubt". And again, this: "Normanhurst Boys' High School, like other academically selective schools and given the nature of its selective admissions criteria, has been historically known and is known for its academic achievement in the Higher School Certificate. Typically, over 96% of all HSC students achieve Band 5 and 6 results in all HSC subjects and in 2016, Normanhurst ranked 11th out of 3136 high schools in the state of NSW. As a result, gaining a place at the school is highly competitive and very much sought after by parents as a sign of their child's academic success."

The changes also included adding a lot of red-linked alumni, without sourcing, and some unsourced info about sport calls and school ethos.

I had reverted this and marked the edits as good faith, but on looking on the user's talk page several other editors have already raised this. Tacyarg (talk) 14:04, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

I have done some work on the article this morning to add sources etc. Tacyarg (talk) 08:37, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Editoraust (talk · contribs) has been blocked for 48 hours for edit warring. I have reverted to my version - @MPS1992: and @MPS1992:, can you have a look and see what you think still needs to be done? Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 13:21, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi, thank you for your work on this. It's an unfortunate situation with many schools like this one -- not just in Australia, and not just "selective" schools in the sense the term is used in New South Wales -- that while there may be a good awareness amongst the wider school community and in the local area and region of a school's qualities, it can remain very difficult to translate that into usable sourced material suitable to build a Wikipedia article. Articles thus fail to reflect what those familiar with the school "know" is widely considered fact, which leads to those people being very annoyed, in the way we've seen here and below.

The article has now had some protection applied to it for a period of one year, so things should be rather quieter in the article history for a while. I hope that Editoraust feels willing to continue discussions here on the talk page, as their viewpoint is important and they may also be in a better position than some of us to find suitable sources. Or indeed, on occasion, to correct mis-perceptions.

I've re-added a few uncontroversial or adequately sourced facts, and also taken out the careers adviser award.

Some things in no particular order that might still need looking over:

• I find it inconceivable that a school of this nature limits its competitive inter-school sports to swimming, "athletics" (by which I believe they mean most of the items that North Americans call track and field), and cross country. Unsurprisingly, the school website lists more than half a dozen others under "Grade and state knockout sports choices". If we're going to mention the chess club and the jazz ensemble, we should mention these.

• The newsletter and journal/yearbook titles are still mentioned in the infobox after being removed from the article body. But they're probably not doing much harm there I think? It would be nice to have a source for the fact of the yearbook being in continual publication since 1962, this could be added back to the article body if so.

• It's implied (in the recently removed content) that one of the sources says something about this school (as opposed to selective schools in NSW generally) having higher socioeconomic (or is it socioeducational?) average intakes even than private schools in the area. At the moment we only mention "other nearby schools". Would be good to check if this can be sourced, and mention it if so. It's a very strange (although not necessarily unique) setup, as is its combination with very high proportion of pupil families not having English as their first language.

• "Strict uniform policy" -- would be great to source some part of this, as at present we don't mention the presence of a uniform at all. Not wanting to go down the common rabbit hole of mentioning the type, color and fabric grade of every single item worn, of course, but mentioning that shirts, ties and blazers are compulsory for all pupils, if this can be sourced, would give an idea.

MPS1992 (talk) 01:02, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, looks like I spoke too soon about the article protection making a difference. @Nibbashrek: please could you explain your re-insertion of large parts of the material that's been removed following discussions on this talk page. You seem to be re-adding at least some things that Editoraust was just blocked for edit-warring over. MPS1992 (talk) 01:09, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

The reasoning behind why I re-inserted the information is that I feel that the removed information is usually found on other schools' Wikipedia pages. If you take a look at Sydney Boys' page, their academic results section would presumably not meet your standards, as would, say, the Wellington College, Berkshire page, which states, "With school fees of up to £39,750 per annum, Wellington College is considered to be one of the country's most prestigious institutions. The school is also famously strong in sports of all manner, frequently winning many large national competitions." Now, I am by no means trying to detract from other schools' achievements, but if the standards of objectivity and meticulously sourced information are applied to other schools' pages, of which these two particular examples are simply examples and nothing more, I would be perfectly happy to accept the changes applied to the Normanhurst page. If you don't understand my point, feel free to reply. Nibbashrek (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Actually I do understand your point, but do you know what -- I'm going to feel free to reply anyway. Just because articles about other schools may as yet still be unsourced puff pieces, does not mean that we should be working to make this article into an unsourced puff piece as well. You're as welcome to improve other school articles in accordance with policy and guidelines just as much as this one. MPS1992 (talk) 07:55, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Could you please explain how adding more information on sports is against policy? I think you're simply reverting ANY changes I make, for the sake of it. Nibbashrek (talk) 05:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

If you read the discussion above, adding more information on sports is exactly what I propose! MPS1992 (talk) 06:36, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Ok! I will go ahead and do just that! Would appreciate it if you could take a look and tell me if there's anything I could improve on.Nibbashrek (talk) 08:30, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I have added a substantial amount of information to all sections. If they are unsatisfactory, please let me know before removing all my edits. I really want to work together to make the page the most informative page it can be, while being completely objective.Nibbashrek (talk) 08:41, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Extensive vandalism motivated by jealousy

This particular Wikipedia page has recently suffered extensive vandalism from editors who seem to know little to nothing about the school. If one is to compare the "promotional" additions to the page I have added, one would find them to be very similar to paragraphs found on many other schools' Wikipedia pages. Everything which has been added, and deemed "promotional", is founded on fact, and not in any way a desire to improve the school's standing. Regarding the additional information on rankings, selective schools are generally known throughout the state, in particular Sydney, to achieve good HSC results, and my changes simply reflect this sentiment. Also, it is undoubted that the selection criteria to enter such a school as Normanhurst is challenging to the average student, and requires extensive preparation. The comment on the socio-economic status of the school's students is also sourced, and if anything, puts the school in a bad light, rather than a good one.

It is my opinion that many of the editors who have reversed the changes made to this page are motivated by an intrinsic jealousy which they would vehemently deny exists, and if aware of it, would justify it by claiming they are simply upholding the objectivity of Wikipedia or removing "promotional" information. I sincerely hope they can view the academic achievements of the school objectively, and not in the way they are currently treating them. Editoraust (talk) 10:53, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Hi there, thank you for responding. I can see this is a school with good results and I have not tried to disguise that in any way - in fact I added content and references to support that. Please don't accuse other editors of jealousy - assuming good faith is one of the Wiki principles.

Thank you for adding in some references. I still think there is too much unsourced material and I will post on the Administrators' noticeboard for guidance. We really are all here to make this the best article about the school, within wiki guidelines, that it can be. Tacyarg (talk) 11:20, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Notable alumni

Just noticed that non-blue-linked alumni were being removed. It is Wikipedia policy that alumni should be listed if they are notable enough to have a WP page of their own, and the ones I added were all listed in Who's Who in Australia, a LIST OF NOTABLE AUSTRALIANS. MB could you please explain why you removed these notable individuals against Wikipedia policy?Nibbashrek (talk) 22:46, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I have added the alumni back. Before removing them again, please justify your reason for doing so within Wikipedia policy terms. Thanks. Nibbashrek (talk) 02:04, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

First, that's not how WP:BRD works. If a claim is made and then reverted, then it goes to the talk page to discuss. You don't get to put a contentious claim back in the article while it is under discussion. When consensus is reached on the talk page, then the appropriate change, if any, can be made.

Second, merely being in Who's Who does not establish notability. Who's Who may be a great source for clues about what to look for in other reliable sources in order to establish notability, but it is insufficient on its own to do so. It should not be used solely to establish notability. If they are truly notable then there ought to be more reliable sources that can substantiate their notability. FWIW, the US version of Who's Who (Marquis) is considered generally unreliable. The UK Who's Who does not have a consensus from editors as to its reliability, but it is generally considered more reliable than Marquis Who's Who. I could not find any discussion on the reliability of Who's Who in Australia. Who's Who in Australia criteria for notability may not be the same as Wikipedia's.

Third, notability is insufficient for placement on the alumni list. Attendance at the school must also be verified from a reliable source.

Fourth, I recommend you write the articles first for these persons. The scrutiny the articles will get will help to resolve whether each is notable or not.

— Archer1234 (talk) 03:26, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Many of the alumni I inserted actually attended Normanhurst. I won't re-insert the one without a Wikipedia page, but I think it is completely within reason to insert those which do. I also think that removing ALL my changes to the alumni list without even considering for a moment whether they were notable or not, but simply a complete removal was unjustified. If you really want to improve this page, please only make necessary edits, and not ones simply for the sake of making an edit.Nibbashrek (talk) 05:01, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

I also believe that if someone is listed in Who's Who in Australia, they are generally of notability. It has been a source listing notable individuals for over 100 years, and it continues to be one. It would be great if we could have a civil discussion about if it is indeed a reliable source or not.Nibbashrek (talk) 05:02, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Nibbashrek, the term notability likely means something different on Wikipedia than you think it does. Read the link. Having a blurb in Who's Who may, or may not be a piece of notability, but the notability of Who's Who has nothing whatsoever to do with the people listed in it being notable. All that matters is if Who's Who meets the standard set forth in WP:RS and whether their editorial methods meet WP:INDY. If the material contained within the Who's Who bio blurb is strictly from their reporting and not supplied by the subject or those connected with them, and if their editorial oversight and their reputation for accuracy and prompt retraction of errors meets our standards, then being in Who's Who could be one piece of many needed to show notability. John from Idegon (talk) 07:30, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

I do belive that Who's Who in Australia is not only a notable source, but a notable source of notable individuals. You seem to know Wikipedia policy much better than I do so would be appreciated if you could verify whether being listed in Who's Who in Australia would warrant being listed as 'notable alumni' on a school page.Nibbashrek (talk) 10:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

It isn't that simple. If you read the links, you should understand the fallacy in your statement. To qualify to be on a notable alumni list, an individual must qualify to have a biography on Wikipedia. Being mentioned in a single publication does not do that irregardless of what publication that might be. John from Idegon (talk) 14:11, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

School name

The school's name appears on its website as Normanhurst Boys High School (sans apostrophe after "Boys"), but the article includes the apostrophe (Normanhurst Boys' High School). Should the article be moved (renamed) to remove the apostrophe? – Archer1234 (talk) 14:56, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. It is not very grammatical, and I would prefer it if the school were to change their name to have an apostrophe in it, however the name of the school is the name of the school, especially if that is also how independent reliable sources refer to it. I can't think of any equivalent school names, but other institutions are treated in this manner, for example Brothers Union cricket team. MPS1992 (talk) 17:33, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. I hadn't thought about looking for other schools with similar names. Turns out there are a fair number and the apostrophe is inconsistently used amongst them. See Boys High School. Some use an apostrophe and some do not. The website of one of the schools is not consistent with its own name (at some places it uses an apostrophe and in other places it does not). – Archer1234 (talk) 19:00, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Webmasters are fickle creatures. MPS1992 (talk) 22:08, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Separate alumni page

I was wondering whether the alumni list should be created on a separate Wikipedia page, which I am willing to write. There seems to be quite a lot of discussion regarding alumni so maybe it would be beneficial to move the topic to a separate page?Nibbashrek (talk) 10:44, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

You don't need to wonder. See WP:FORK. This article (we do not have "pages") is nowhere near the size needed to warrant a content fork. John from Idegon (talk) 14:05, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think there's any harm in creating a separate article listing the alumni, away from the main school page. Since there is a bit of debate about the alumni, I think a separate article should be created, to focus on the school's content on this article.Nibbashrek (talk) 09:45, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

This John from Idegon fellow is usually wrong about mostly everything, in my experience. But in this particular, he is right -- there is no need to spawn a separate article about alumni until this current article about the school grows too long. MPS1992 (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

I genuinely cannot tell if that was a friendly roasting or a serious comment about John from Idegon. :D Nibbashrek (talk) 00:44, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

He and I are great friends. Or, we will be in about 50 years perhaps... MPS1992 (talk) 00:49, 4 July 2019 (UTC)