Talk:Mercurio Bua

Sources missing

More disruptive editing from Stupidus Maximus (talk · contribs). The whole biography section lacks sourcing. Evidently, Stupidus must have had some source, but he isn't telling us about it. That's almost worse than writing on the basis of no source at all. Why did he do it: maybe because, as before, he's been plagiarising it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:32, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Probably his main source:[1]. There are some very good sources of the 17-19th century about M.Bua and we could use them in the context of "According to...".--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree that naming this person simply 'Albanian' is misleading, considering the unique nature of the stradioti, for example a number of sources like this [[2]] name him Greek condotiere. Pappas' description also makes clear that hellenization among specific Stradioti communities was underway.Alexikoua (talk) 19:06, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

At that time as you already know Greek didn't mean ethnic Greek but Orthodox from the former Byzantine Empire.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:35, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying that orthodox Bulgarians, Serbians, Armenians etc were Greeks? Don't bother to answer. Greek meaned orthodox christian, speaking Greek and prefering to be referred to as Greek. Bua's main language was Greek. Sources at hand.--Euzen (talk) 07:51, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

And "Albanian" mostly implied nomadic or semi-nomadic pastoralists, not settled people from cities like Nafplion, who usually assimilated into the dominant Greek or Venetian urban culture. Bua himself was certainly of Albanian origin, but to call him "Albanian" without qualifications, i.e. to make him look to those unfamiliar with the subtleties of the 15th-century Morea as "Albanian" as a citizen of the modern Albanian nation-state, would be highly misleading. This was the Middle Ages, ethnic identity didn't mean as much, and was much more fluid and flexible. Bua can be described as Albanian, Greek or Venetian, depending on one's POV. Bua described himself simply "of Nafplion". I doubt any Greco-Albanian spats over a posthumous attribution of a specific ethnicity would mean anything to him. Constantine ✍ 20:57, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

And when sources are added, they get deleted if they spoil the albanian soup.
Read this article by Maria-Luisa Ricciardi who studied the history of Bua in original sources and believes that he was Greek from Epirus. Ricciardi Maria Luisa (1989) Lorenzo Lotto: Il Gentiluome della Galleria Borghese, Artibus et Historiae, vol. 10, No 19, pp.85-106. Available through JSTOR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 09:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You're quoting something written by Lorenzo Lotto, a painter of the early 16 century and making or deductions about it. It seems that what's being cited is a review of a...painting and an inscription of Lotto, so please don't make or deductions and try for once to adhere to WP:RS. I'm not even insisting on adding that he was an Albanian and you make such deductions based on painting reviews and 16th century meanings of words and at the same time on Karaiskaki you labeled as unreliable a source that called him Albanian because it dealt primarily with architecture, without even dealing with primary sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

What's weird in this case is that Lotto wasn't an author, he wrote nothing, just painted. So it's imposible that he wrote about M.B., especially a work of 1989. What's important here is that Cplakidas is right: there was no clear ethnic identity in this case.Alexikoua (talk) 23:18, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Zjarri.. is either pretending or he never read that source. Lotto did not write anything. We are not even sure that this painting depicts M. Bua. The article is written by Ricciardi based on sources like the Diaries of Marco Sanudo and others. Can someone stop this aggression?--Euzen (talk) 14:04, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

FutureP has suggested that you should be brought to AE for your activity but I won't do that since at least the rest of the users know that wikipedia doesn't include or deductions about 15th century people(like Marco Sanudo).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 15:30, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's see then if WP understands "Greek" of 15th c. as "orthodox Albanian" (sources please) and if information can be deleted on users' personal assumptions of what "Greek" means. This paragraph will be reverted soon. In the meanwhile please find the time to read the publication by Ricciardi. Fut.P is also requested to express his opinion on what "Greek" means and, if he doesn't mind, to asure us that he has no conflict of interest in articles related to Albania. Let me btw express here my personal opinion that in Middle Ages "Albanian" meaned "person born in the geographical area of Albania", although I don't think that WP articles should be modified in line with my opinion. I propose mediation. State here if you agree.--Euzen (talk) 17:05, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Seek as much mediation as you want but the policy remains the same: If a 15th century diary/person or a panting review says greco di origine epirota that doesn't mean modern ethnic Greek, which is an or deduction and you can't use...blocks of text you found on a painting review as source. Btw just because FutureP reverts your obvious or and synth , it doesn't mean that he's somehow biased against you.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Let's apply the same argument on "Albanians" of other articles, e.g. Skanderbeg. You agree on mediation or not?--Euzen (talk) 19:44, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Euzen, there's no user making or deductions about Skanderbeg using ...an art review or a 15th century diary.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 20:00, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

The article of Maria Luisa Ricciardi (1989) is not an art critique but a historical investigation attempting to find out who is the "Gentilhuomo" of Lotto's painting. The "15th century diary" is a Venetian archive. Shall we assume that Bua's "Albanianness" is based on more serious sources?--Euzen (talk) 09:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Another edit

[3]. The passage from the Florange mémoirs is utterly unsuitable for two reasons: (1) it's apparently about a different person altogether. The guy Florange talks about is one Mercurio Rona, who was in the service of the King of France in 1507. I'm not seeing any evidence that he was related to our Bua (except if it's a misspelling – I'm now finding yet other references to one "Mercurio Bira", who seems to be the same guy as the "Rona" [4][5].) (2) It's a primary source from the 16th century, hence unsuitable about a claim about what authors "consider" to be the case in the present tense; (3) If there's anything we should all have learned by now, it is the fact that "being Greek" and "being Albanian" weren't considered mutually exclusive properties prior to the late 19th century. It logically follows from that that any statement made by a pre-19th-century author – and here we are talking about somebody writing in the mid-16th century! – that calls a person either "A." or "G." cannot be used as a reference for a claim in the article that is couched in terms of a "dispute" involving an exclusive dichotomy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:15, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course a 16th century source is unsuitable for modern ethnic definitions. That being said Euzen's edits regarding this ethnicity dispute began in December 2010 and even after being given the same explanation he still insists on inserting similar sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:16, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The coordinated reaction of two user-names does not add credibility to the argument.

• If there is another Mercurio Bua, let us add it in the article.
• If "Albanian" and "Greek" are not mutually exclusive (which has to be explained) why keep only the first?
• We also have a 20th century source deleted by the albanian team. That of Ricciardi who characterizes Bua as Greek.

--Euzen (talk) 07:18, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

• Call me part of an "Albanian team" once more and you go straight to WP:AE for a topic ban.
• About the issue: The Ricciardi source is just as unsuitable as the other, for your claim that there is a "dispute" about the nationality. There is no such dispute. Ricciardi, quite reasonably, is using "Greek" and "Albanian" as almost synonymous, as do other authors. Ricciardi (1989: 96) quotes, as her principal authority on his background, a passage from Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani, which explicitly describes him as Albanian ("The scion of a noble Albanian family transplanted into the Peloponnese, he was the son of Pietro, whom, after the fall of the Despotate of Morea, the Albanians of the region considered their chief" ['Discendente da una nobile famiglia albanese trapiantata nel Peloponneso, era figlio di Pietro, che dopo la caduta delDespotato di Morea, gli albanesi della regione consideravano come proprio capo']). Ricciardi then, immediately after quoting this, and without any sign of disagreeing with it, summarizes the same passage by saying, "So, [...] he was Greek of Epirote origin". Not the slightest sign of a dispute anywhere. The dispute is merely here on Wikipedia, between you and the rest of the world. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:36, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

In this case you wouldn't object adding that "According to (Ricciardi, Sathas) he was Greek". This would also distanciate you from the "everybody is albanian" team. --Euzen (talk) 09:14, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I would object to that. It would be an utterly useless statement. We could have an endless list of "According to X he was this, according to Y he was that". Picking out only one such author to the exclusion of others would be obviously tendentious; providing the whole list would be idiotic. Either way, any such statement, if presented in the form and in the kind of context envisaged here, would still trigger the implication that we are treating the terms in the modern sense and as a mutually exclusive dichotomy. Any treatment in such terms would mean undue weight on a perceived "dispute" that exists only in your mind and nowhere else. We are currently not ascribing any ethnicity to him, and that's just fine. We are naming his place of origin (which is in Greece, undoubtedly); we are naming his family (which was Albanian, undoubtedly); no reliable source in the literature has so far felt it necessary to engage in any more discussion of what these facts mean in terms of ethnicity, beyond characterizing him in passing, so there is absolutely no reason for us to shoehorn more ethnicity-centered discussion into the article at this point. Anybody who tries to do so is an ideologically driven agenda-pusher. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:31, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Good effort, Mr Perfect. Some uneducated will buy this. You have the advandage of not having many notable persons to promote in WP and you press "undue weight" by war-editing around the word "Albanian". The fact is that there is no credible information that his family was "Albanian" or that M.B. was speaking Albanian or was fealing Albanian in ethnicity. Invercely, it is obvious that he was Greek speaker and his name is Greek, from the word "vous", a common part of many Greek and Serbian names (e.g. Bo-ioannes, Bu-janic etc).
If you discover an notable person that is real "Albanian" let us know.--Euzen (talk) 07:51, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

There is guideline (Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines) which says Never address other users in a heading.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The fact that M.B. was born in Greece doesn't make him Greek, that is to say a cat born in a kennel is a dog! Shpata is an Albanian name, and as all the Greeks here on the rabid race to deny everything Albanian already know, Greece was inhabited by Albanians already from the 10th century, who became a majority already in the 15th-16th century, as Ottoman defters, as well as countless travelers, CLEARLY show. So Greek-style lexical chicaneries and philosophy won't change that simple historical fact!! Etimo (talk) 22:26, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

Spatha is a greek name, btw, from the ancient greek Σπάθη (sword)[6]. It became a surname after the byzantine official "σπαθάριος"[7]. Have a nice day.--Skylax30 (talk) 18:33, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Another Mercurio Bua?

According to this source, there was also a Mercurio Bua who was active about half a century later than this one, during the "War of the Three Henrys" of 1587. Who can say more? This one too is described as a commander of Albanian/Stradioti mercenaries. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

ProbablyHe was a member of the same clan and maybebut probably not a descendant of the same Mercurio Bua. His male descendants inherited the county of Treviso(Count Curio Bua etc.), while this Bua is attested only as captain/capitano/hauptmann. For a full list of the sources about him search for Mercurio Bua + 1587 and Bua + Coutras.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 18:29, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Yep. All of the references to him that I've found so far seem to go back ultimately to Arrigo Davila's Histoire des guerres civiles de France and seem to relate to that battle at Coutras in 1587. Apparently he was full of teh fail too. Probably a minor figure compared with the older namesake. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:52, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

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Bua family

Mercurio Bua was a member of the Albanian Bua family who settled in Nauplia, they were not Greek. – Βατο (talk) 11:02, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

I think that editing requires cross-article consistency and WP:DUE use of bibliography. Mercurio Bua is a historical figure whose genealogy is known and we also know the social environment he lived in. Both his parents were Albanian. Sources have to be consistent with what is known about a historical figure. If a source among the many which have been publishes calls him Greek in passing in contrast to other sources, editors shouldn't use it as an ethnicity marker or as means to exclude what is known as fact - not as speculation - about his ancestry and ethnicity. There are some sources which mention Krokodeilos Kladas as Albanian in passing, but it contradicts what is known as historical fact. In my book, editors have to work according to the overview of bibliography and what has been established as fact.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:14, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Several specialist publications tend to adopt a different approach. It's not productive to claim Albanian purity since M.Bua ancestors migrated from Albania nearly 2 centuries before with all those intermarriages between nobilities etc. Various in depth wp:RS are clear on the subject. such as: Zorzi, Renzo; Cini.", Fondazione "Giorgio. Le metamorfosi del ritratto (in Italian). L.S. Olschki. p. 164. ISBN 978-88-222-5147-3, Bugh, Glenn Richard (2002). "Andrea Gritti and the Greek Stradiots of Venice in the Early 16th Century". Thēsaurismata tou Hellēnikou Institoutou Vyzantinōn kai Metavyzantinōn Spoudōn: 93. Romano, Roberto. "a produzione letteraria di Jacopo Trivolis, nobile veneto-corfiota" (PDF). Porphyra. p. 81.Alexikoua (talk) 18:00, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

If you want to put forward an argument that his ancestors migrated from Albania nearly 2 centuries ago as something with functional meaning you have to put forward something which contradicts the fact that his father was Peter Bua. It's a hard fact. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:07, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Mercurio Bua had Albanian origin, and it is unclear what evidence would suggest that he felt Greek. The description as Greek in a few sources might be in reference to his birthplace in Greece. It is meaningful, I think, that he referred to himself, in the only letter written by him that has survived to this day, as "capitaine de cent hommes de guerre d cheval albanoys (Captain of 100 Albanian cavalrymen and men-of-war)". In any case, I am OK if his description as Albanian or Greek is left out of the lead. Ktrimi991 (talk) 06:28, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

As stated I agree about the introductory part. The details why he was mentioned as Albanian, Greek, Greek-Albanian etc based on the available bibliography can be described in the main body.Alexikoua (talk) 07:30, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

There is direct evidence from Giovanni Andrea Saluzzo who liberated the Albanian Mercurio when he was captured in the Battle of Novara after the defeat of the Duke of Milan Ludovico Sforza. Giovanni Andrea Saluzzo describes Mercurio as "arbanesso", "et lui hera arbaneso". – Βατο (talk) 22:35, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

@Alexikoua:@Βατο: [8] Petros Lantzas calls Greek at the lede a figure who wasn't of Greek origin - because he was born in present-day Greece. Cross-article consistency is important. The lede should be structured along the same lines in every article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:05, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

About Lantzas you mean Xhufi's suggestion that according to a Russian historian that there must have been some connection with a person that appears to have moved to Corfu 150 years earlier, isn't enough to warrant a lede change. Nevertheless if you can find some solid clear reference (i.e. Lantzas as Albanian stradioti) we can proceed to the change. In the case of M. Bua we have solid clear bibliography, not just a single Greek reference claiming Greek identity.Alexikoua (talk) 18:21, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Most sources don't describe Lantzas as Greek, but as Corfiote. I haven't yet read Xhufi (2016).--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I have not read the sources about the early life of Petros Lantzas. I can't comment about that article. The early life of Mercurio Bua is documented, he was the son of Peter Bua, and when he was serving Ludovico Sforza in 1500 he is expressly called Albanian (Mercurio arbanesso, et lui hera arbaneso). Some editors here should accept historical facts. – Βατο (talk) 18:22, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Tzanes Koroneos, who served under his orders wrote in 1519 that M. Bua was proud of his Greek ancestry. Nevertheless I'm not going to make him Greek, I accept that both sides (Greek vs Albanian) have arguments to present, so I feel that Ktrimi's proposal has merit.Alexikoua (talk) 18:28, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Khirurg: your edit is not justified, because Mercurio Bua was the son of an Albanian leader, and when Mercurio was liberated in 1500 and was serving the Duchy of Milan, he is expressly called Albanian, hence its relevant for the lede. – Βατο (talk) 18:30, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@Alexikoua, we are here commenting on historical facts. both sides (Greek vs Albanian) have arguments to present no, you have not hisotrical documentation for your claim, you base it just on myths. – Βατο (talk) 18:31, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

wp:OR

It appears that [[9]] the specific additon isn't supported by the correspondent citation:

• The Koronaios used as the language of his stradiot protagonist greghesco, a mixed Greek-Venetian variant which was employed in satirical plays of the 16th century in Venice
• The author writes in p.339: Their action is etched in the memory of the stradiots themselves. This is deduced, for example, from the epic poem Ανδραγαθ΄πηματα Μερκούριου Μπούα (La gesta de Mercurio Bua), composed in 1519 by the stradioti from Zante Tzane Koroneos. In this he hymned the deeds of his celebrated coleague Mercurio Bua from Napoli di Romania, who had served under the flag of Venice, of France, and the Holy Roman Empire. The adventures of the stradiots are likewise etched in the Venetian collective memory, through their penetration into Venetian dialect comedy (commedia dialettale). Since this is a comedy ofmorals, space was given in it to foreigners who gravitated to Venice for mainly professional reasons. The incomers spoke various languages and brought with them their own way of life. Time and again, we see in a series of sixteenth-century plays a cultivation of a Greek Venetian idiom, the so-called greghesso..

To sum up the specific epic poem isn't included in the list of works written in this idiom.Alexikoua (talk) 06:26, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Tzane Koronaios has some greghesco elements, although there is a different classification between greco vulgare and greghesco literario. His poem was intended to become a play originally Il manoscritto dell’opera, composta da Tzane Koroneos ed ultimata presumibilmente nel 1519 [10] Yet it's a fair point that there is a lack of direct link in the source. I will remove it for now and expand it again later.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:08, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

That's very interesting, didn't know about that. I'll will check it.Alexikoua (talk) 16:58, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Consistency is important. Why shouldn't this article call him Albanian? Alexikoua is taking out of context references that are not about ethnicity in this case. Ahmet Q. (talk) 19:32, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Ethnicity in the lede

While I don't think anyone disputes he was of Albanian parentage, WP:MOSETHNICITY states The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory, where the person is a citizen, national, or permanent resident; or, if the person is notable mainly for past events, where the person was a citizen, national, or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

I don't see this requirement satisfied here. He is primarily notable as a Venetian condottiere, and having spent most of his life in Greece he would have been largely Hellenized. Furthermore, people back then did not identify with a particular nationality as they do now. I thus think it would be best to leave ethnicity out of the lede. Khirurg (talk) 18:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

He was born in 1478 in Venetian Nafplion and he moved to Venice after his father's death in 1489. He spent very little of his life in Greece. His relation to Greece was that he lived there for 11 years. And he was a Catholic. He entered military service very early in his life and when he was captured in 1500, he is called Mercurio Bua Albanese. He led companies of Albanian cavalry for decades and at the only one of his letters which has survived, he calls himself capitaine de cent hommes de guerre d cheval albanoys. All his close family relations are with other Albanian stradioti families in Venice. His family were/are active for hundreds of years in Arbereshe communities. His origins are a significant part of the discussion about the historical figure of Mercurio Bua. --Maleschreiber (talk) 18:58, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

The historical evidence that Mercurio was the son of the leader of an Albanian community, that when he was serving the Duchy of Milan around 1500 he was expressly called Albanian, and that he called himself capitaine de cent hommes de guerre d cheval albanoys is eneough for inclusion in the lede. – Βατο (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

1. Mercurio Bua was proud for his Greek origins as recorded in his contemporary biography written by his fellow soldier Koroneos. 2. We have several in depth sources (Romano, Bugh, Renzo, Fattori, to name a few) that describe him as Greek or Greek-Albanian, even Papas mentions him as an example of a hellenized Stradioti. 3. Inscription in his tombstone reads "Prince of Peloponnesus, Leader of the Epirote Horsemen". Conclusion: This guy can't be called Albanian at first line perhaps some mention with the Bua clan in general will be more than enough for the lead. wp:BRD as Ktrimi noted [[11]] should be respected.Alexikoua (talk) 19:46, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

Alexikoua's was proud for his Greek origins is not written in that poem - a poem by a Greek author written for a specific audience. It's WP:PRIMARY but what Alexikoua is putting forward is not mentioned in bibliography. It's WP:FRINGE to search for keywords and put forward a narrative based on them. I searched the Stradioti/Condotierri database and I found in the listing of Greek stradioti captain Andrea Mauresi: Nel veronese, per controllare i movimenti degli avversari. Con Mercurio Bua (80 stradiotti e 100 cavalli leggeri coadiuvati da molti contadini) sconfigge a Frassine 100 cavalli; cattura Alfonso di Carvajal con 40 cavalli spagnoli. Si reca a Venezia con lettere del capitano generale Bartolomeo d’Alviano e dei provveditori generali; in Collegio dichiara che gli stradiotti greci non sono affatto inferiori a quelli di etnia albanese comandati da Mercurio Bua e che i suoi stradiotti vogliono una provvigione. Il doge Leonardo Loredan è largo di promesse e lo rimanda a Padova per la rassegna. Andrea Mauresi, a Greek stradioti captain, in 1513, complained to the Venetian administration about the wages of the Greek stradioti who were paid less although they were in no way inferior to the Albanian stradioti commanded by Mercurio Bua. What more should bibliography and archival material highlight about Mercurio Bua for the lede to call him an Albanian? Alexikoua is searching for keywords and then he's using them without any functional historical meaning as a means to devalue hard facts. @Khirurg: If someone searches for Krokodeilos Kladas + Albanian they will find several sources that call him Albanian but responsible use of bibliography highlights that the hard historical facts don't confirm the use of the term Albanian as a term for ethnicity or cultural identity. Alexikoua's methodology is that of someone who would search for Kladas + Albanian and then ask from the community to not call Kladas Greek because there are sources that call him Albanian It's very bad use of bibliography. --Maleschreiber (talk) 20:37, 21 April 2021 (UTC)