Talk:Intensive animal farming/Archive 9

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Archive 5

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Archive 7

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Reverts without talk page discussion

So... for those who know, what's the appropriate course of action to take when people revert without engaging in discussion on the talk page, even after being asked to do so? (i.e. Crum and SV) Jav43 22:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Join mediation, everyone? Crum375 22:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, the reasons for its use have been expressed dozens of times, and the constant ignoring of them is getting old, and saying people aren't discussing it is just wrong, as it has been discussed to death. If you disagree with the image, we should use some form of dispute resolution - as there seems to be 2 completely opposing positions.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:47, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

What's the point in mediation when you refuse to discuss the merits? That said, I won't oppose mediation. Jav43 00:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We have discussed the merits, over and over and over, to death. This Talk page and its archives contain huge amounts of discussions, that got us nowhere. The way to proceed when we clearly disagree, is not to keep talking at each other ad nauseam, but to go to mediation. Crum375 00:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

We had 55,000 words from one contributor alone in three days, so heaven knows how many words overall. If you want to go to mediation to discuss the image and the titles, let's do it. We've been suggesting it for weeks. But you can't have your way completely: multiple titles, images of your choice, no mediation. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:53, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with mediation limited to the issue of the current top image and its caption. WAS 4.250 08:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, those opposed to Slim et. al. should take note of her comment about "can't have your way completely: multiple titles" which seems to indicate the acceptance of not trying to merge other agricultural articles into this one. This was the issue here that I felt could not be compromised on. As long as the other agricultural articles aren't also made into being all about angst for animals then I don't feel its worth the time to fight over this article being too much like that. WAS 4.250 08:18, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. That's what's wrong with your approach. We should have merged all the information, all the images, all the POVs, and written two encyclopedic articles, instead of leaving this as a POV fork so that your other articles are free of nastiness. Anyway, Jav, as you can see, you backed the wrong side. And WAS, any mediation must cover all the issues, because they're all linked. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 08:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. That's what's wrong with your approach. Everything for you seems to be all about one side versus another and backing a winning side and everything you do comes off as tactics and strategy for winning. Some of us, Slim, just want to incrementally improve a free neutral encyclopedia. WAS 4.250 09:09, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we all do. The point SlimVirgin was trying to make is about the way to get there. Some of us wanted to resolve our differences by mediation, while some refused it. Some of us wanted to have a combined article that coherently presents all aspects of industrialized, intensive or factory farming, while others wanted to have three or more articles that would be susceptible to redundancies and POV forking. The 'sides' SlimVirgin refers to are not POVs - they have to do with constructive approaches to a solution, vs. approaches that keep going in circles, spew tons of repetitive verbiage, and do not converge. Crum375 14:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Slimvirgin, I don't know how to respond to you here. I keep answering your queries and rejecting your conclusions, but you just make the same blatantly false statements over and over again. I really find it hard to believe that you want a good encyclopedia - it seems that you just want to "win", whatever that means for you. Please take a step back and look over your statements - maybe you'll realize how ridiculous they are. Jav43 22:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Jav43, accusing your fellow editors as being 'ridiculous', or not wanting a good encyclopedia is uncivil. Please address the issues; attacking other editors will get you nowhere. If you really want to move forward, convince everyone on this page to agree to mediation. Crum375 22:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't accuse SV of being ridiculous. I accused her ridiculous statements of being ridiculous. Please don't read your own biases into my statements. Jav43 22:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Jav, do you edit with other accounts? The reason I ask is that I said yesterday you were a single-issue editor, and you said you were not, but the contributions of this account clearly show you are. Also, you edit only sporadically, but are also able to turn up quickly if reverted (and you've reverted it nearly 70 times). It's leading me to think you may have other accounts. Please note that it's a violation of WP:SOCK to use multiple accounts to avoid scrutiny. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 22:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You need to re-read the rules regarding sockpuppetry. But that's irrelevant. What does this have to do with anything? Jav43 22:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I think she has done, particularly the line which states 'Multiple accounts should not be used as a way of avoiding the scrutiny of your fellow editors by ensuring you leave no audit trail. Using sock puppet accounts to split your contributions history means that other editors can't detect patterns in your contributions.'

Regarding the image, you do not have consensus to remove it. It has been there for a long while, the normal thing is to leave things be until consensus can be achieved. So far your arguments have not swayed me and your claims that no-one is discussing the issue are baseless - as we have discussed the image many, many times.-Localzuk^(talk) 23:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Jav, if you have other accounts, please tell us what they are, or start editing here with the main one. You've kicked up quite a bit of dissent on this page for months, and this is exactly the kind of situation where scrutiny of your edits might matter. Please review WP:SOCK very carefully. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have violated no rules. Jav43 13:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

If you have this account simply to avoid scrutiny of your edits, as it seems, then you have broken the rules. It would simply be better if you used only one account or told us of your other account(s).-Localzuk^(talk) 15:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Localzuk: have you recognized that at least 6 people agreed the image should be removed, while only 3 support it? This is not an attempt to show a "vote", but merely to show that you are outnumbered -- and that, perhaps, you should take a fresh look at why you are introducing controversy into an article that is meant to be informative. Jav43 13:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

And as you say, majority isn't consensus. The majority can still be wrong... We're not introducing controversy into the article, simply wanting the most representative image at the top.-Localzuk^(talk) 15:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

(followup question) What attempts at WP:DR have been made? Article RfCs, Article for deletion discussion, User conduct RfC, Mediation, CheckUser, etc.? Also, thank you for the new "one paragraph" section below, it's very helpful. I would very much like to see a single paragraph from each of the main participants of this dispute. --El on ka 19:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

There has been an RFC (in one of the archives) and an attempt to take it to RFM but several parties didn't believe it would be of any use and declined it. No user conduct, afd or checkusers have been completed.-Localzuk^(talk) 20:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Can I just say: I think this potential underhanded tactic of checkusering or accusing (there was a similar some would call abuse of admin rights during a request for adminship that JayjG let slip, and surprisingly enough some names from here popped up there too and defended that..) has nothing to do with the article at hand. If anyone's conduct needs examining: it's the conduct of editors on here who turn up, tag team revert, avoid discussion, claim mediation is the only way forward. SV, crum375, localzuk: I recommend you stop using personal attacks or allegations of impropriety as a substitute for consultative editing. One might suggest you are showing an inability to accept that agriculture is more than just a synonym for "evil". You also do not own the article and it is not necessary/not recommended for an article to be about controversy. If you are blinded by animal lib activism: take it elsewhere. While I can't say if this (found with a simple google search) is anything other than a joke or attempt to slur, but it does somewhat appear to describe the actions on here of a group of people on this topic.

"The most representative image" means different things depending on view. If you are an animal lib proponent: of course you want the most shocking picture (lifted from an activist anti-factory farming site.. something which "you lot" have argued strongly against doing on the PETA page). So I might put it that "most appropriate" to you means "most shocking". Factory farming isn't JUST about controversy (supplying a very large percentage of food to the industrialised nations is no small feat). And yes there is some messed up stuff getting practised but all agriculture isn't evil. All agriculture terms are not simply "factory farming". There are actual benefits as well as downsides whether you like to admit it or not. I'd suggest you lay off this line of attack and perhaps look at your own behaviour on this article. Gestation crates are one small part of the overall field. There are many more pigs NOT in gestation crates (as they're for pregnant sows). Should the page for steak have a big skull with blood dripping from the eyes because some people think that's representative of what a steak is because they hate meat? NathanLee 17:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Can I refer SlimVirgin, Crum375 and Localzuk to the policy on checkuser: checkuser policy. To quote:

The tool is to be used to fight vandalism, to check for sockpuppet abuse, and to limit disruption of the project. It must be used only to prevent damage to one or several of Wikimedia projects.

The tool should not be used for political control; to apply pressure on editors; or as a threat against another editor in a content dispute. There must be a valid reason to check a user. Note that alternative accounts are not forbidden, so long as they are not used in violation of the policies (for example, to double-vote or to increase the apparent support for any given position).

Now perhaps a reasonable person might think Jav43 deserves an apology? NathanLee 18:06, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend you read the WP:SOCK policy - which clearly states Multiple accounts should not be used as a way of avoiding the scrutiny of your fellow editors by ensuring you leave no audit trail. Using sock puppet accounts to split your contributions history means that other editors can't detect patterns in your contributions.

As we have said, it is simply a case that if the user Jav43 is a sock of another account and is only like that to avoid scrutiny then he is breaking the rules. I don't think anyone has requested checkuser or has used checkuser either - just asking him to use only one account as his use of multiple ones makes us uneasy and makes it difficult to trust him. So, Nathan, please actually read what we say before demanding apologies on behalf of someone else.

Also, once again Nathan, you are making unjustified claims of ownership and some sort of conspiracy where there is none. We have a dispute here, which you simply refuse to accept that a legitimate opposite side exists. With regards to removing the image - the image existed there for a while, then was summararily removed without consensus and so far consensus has not been reached to remove it.

Finally, your pointing to the meetup.com link is completely inappropriate and simply makes me think you are using underhanded tactics in order to daemonise SV. You can plainly see that it is a slur, no reasonable person - especially SV - would type such a preposterous pile of nonsense and bringing it up here either shows an acute lack of judgement - and has, I have to say, completely destroyed any respect or trust I had for you.

I think it is you that should be apologising.-Localzuk^(talk) 21:25, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I have broken no rules and -- I'll say this without being asked -- I have not lied. Yay. Jav43 03:17, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Localzuk: if you can tell me how SV's (and your) accusation of sock puppetry is in any way a relevant fact or in some way "assuming good faith" in this discussion then I'd love to hear it. Localzuk: i believe it was you who said you or everyone hated me in the past? Is that correct? In which case you had no respect or trust to destroy I would assume. I think your continued defence of some checkuser type threat/accusation/whatever is grossly inappropriate and yes: you should be apologising. Would it be reasonable to suggest that given crum375/SV and yourself could quite easily be assumed to be sock puppets? I had made a request for this to be checked back at the start which SV deleted (a grossly inappropriate act to start with). The claim of ownership: take a look at how SV keeps "tweaking" the page back to the version that was locked a while back. We went through an awful lot of discussion that seems to have been wasted because one user appears unable to accept a differing page or other input (and frequently ignores the "avoid reverting" part of the dispute avoidance policy). This accusation against jav43 is nothing more than extreme assumption of bad faith (or perhaps indications of abuse of checkuser privileges). What other possible reasons would anyone have to make that accusation?

My posting a link: I didn't say it was anything other than a rubbish thing BUT it SEEMED to describe what was going on (unfortunately).

Needing to "detect patterns": This fallacious line of argument is really just a substitute for having a real argument against the question of content and any logical editor can see that. I could (in an equally fallacious line of argument) point out the common editing patterns of say SV and Crum375: nice to see the interest in vegan, animal lib, factory farming, holocaust, jewish related and revert-heavy editing patterns are so consistent (oh and nice that crum375 is watchful and able to decide what constitutes a revert-worthy edit on SV's talk page like this). I might add a request to checkuser on those two was removed by one of the users in question. But here they are slinging mud at Jav43 for no reason (other than it would be nice to silence someone they disagree with). Is it bad faith for me to be suspicious of an out of the blue accusation and demands to go on record to answer obviously bad faith accusations? NathanLee 22:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Nathan, asking someone if they use other accounts is not an assumption of bad faith, it is simply a question based on observations of apparent single purpose editing. Pointing out how things look is not a bad thing either (I agree that the editing patterns of SV and Crum are similar but would not agree that they are sock puppets of one another due to their arguing styles being completely different).

Pointing to a site which is completely inappropriate like you have done is a bad thing and whilst you admit it is nothing more than rubbish, why post it at all other than to cause trouble?

No-one owes Jav43 an apology, as pointing out the rules is not a bad thing. The only assumptions of bad faith are coming from you Nathan...

Finally, I can't remember what exactly I said regarding people liking you as there has been so much talk on these pages, but IIRC it was saying that your behaviour makes people dislike you and I may have said I dislike you - which would be true, but it doesn't mean I can't respect your opinions.-Localzuk^(talk) 22:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

What a joke

The article as it stands justifies "Factory farming, also known as intensive[4] or industrial[5] farming, is the practice of raising farm animals indoors under conditions of restricted mobility" with original research that illogically ignorantly delusionally claims statements like "She intends to end factory farming in her country. This must be the way forward and we should end industrial agriculture in this country as well." constitute a source for the terms to be called equivalent. What a joke. This is disgusting and absurd and contrary to the original research policy and reflects a POV that blinds an otherwise excellent editor into not being able to parse an English language sentence. WAS 4.250 20:18, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Added the qualifier to match what the sources say. Funny how the compromise, discussed changes always seem to head back to one editor's version. Page ownership anyone? NathanLee 21:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I am getting to my absolute wits end with this nonsense. YOU HAVE TO LISTEN TO OTHER EDITORS!! JUST BECAUSE YOU THINK ONE THING DOESN'T MEAN IT IS CORRECT!! Please re-read the archives and you will see that some editors have provided very good justification of all this, but you simply disagree - this doesn't mean it is wrong. Learn to accept this please, as you are constantly saying the same, useless and repetitive nonsense.-Localzuk^(talk) 21:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Nathan and WAS decided to go off and edit POV forks, and while not ideal, it at least means there is time actually to write this article. What is notable about the editors who've caused trouble here is that none of them contribute to content: it's all shuffling things around, deleting material, and creating a toxic talk page.

Please allow the page to be written — or even help to write it! Once that's done, we'll have a clearer idea of how to judge the content and what to call the thing. But this pointless reverting while it's being written is nothing but destructive — and it can't be written overnight so some patience is required. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:16, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

How are you allowing others to contribute if the only version you will accept is one written by SV? It was your action of deleting the other articles to do a merge without any discussion that started this. The extra pages were created by WAS in an attempt to create some sort of idea on how they could look. Prior to your actions there were the pages "factory farming", "intensive farming", "industrial agriculture". You attempted to remove those other pages and have them all redirect to "Factory farming". So please keep that in mind as you now place blame on the resulting mess. Any attempt to change or refine the page was reverted if you recall.. Despite a number of editors wanting to contribute.. So if that's not ownership then I don't know what is.NathanLee 22:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I would like the pages redirected to something, not necessarily a page called "factory farming." I did not call this page "factory farming": please bear that in mind.

Nathan, you are welcome to write for this page (so long as your edits rely on decent sources), something you haven't done so far. What you're not welcome to do is destroy other people's work. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:24, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Slimvirgin: can you in any way substantiate that attack on my edits and your lack of assumption of good faith. I've added many references. Can I also remind you that edits that involve changing content does not constitute "destroying" other people's work. This is a wiki. Look up the definition if you're unclear on the concept. Your edits are not set in stone, nor are they magically protected from edits, refinements, deletions, additions or rewordings. You do not own this page, and nor are your edits magically worth more than other people's if they are conforming to policies, references etc. I'd suggest (as I have in the past) that perhaps your animal lib beliefs are clouding your judgement and your editing style can be said to be unnecessarily abrasive in this matter. NathanLee 22:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

This is the edit with which SlimVirgin changed the opening line of this article. And her edit summary was: "added source and quote in footnotes; tightened writing a little." Needless to say, the description does not match the actuality. Furthermore, SlimVirgin was, with this edit, deliberately introducing a prior and very contentious version of the lead. She shows yet again that she has no interest in anything other than the version of the article which she wishes to create, and that she is utterly prepared to bypass anything written on this talk page. If anything, this behavior evinces an intention to make the situation unworkable. All the while bemoaning that others don't wish to enter a mediation process with her. It is remarkable that such an experienced editor is not ashamed of these controlling and underhanded tactics. Such tactics may for the moment grant SlimVirgin control over the content of this article, but the erosion of good will which her behavior has inevitably produced will not make it any likelier that consensus can be achieved for her other goals, such as the deletion of related articles. The more she insists on a skewed version of this article, the less likely it is that others will feel comfortable with such deletions. The reality is, there is no consensus for deleting articles, and strong arguments have been put for their retention, to which SlimVirgin's response has been limited to the continual refrain: "I can't understand why they want to have more articles," or, "These other articles are POV forks." In the apposite words of WAS 4.250, what a joke. BCST2001 01:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Are we ready for arbcom?

Are we ready for arbcom? In my opinion SlimVirgin is a wonderful asset to Wikipedia and in general a really great editor. It pains me to come to the conclusion that in the area of agriculture, SlimVirgin's POV on animal rights clouds her judgement to the extent that she and those who take their lead from her (is "meatpuppets" the right word??) should not edit on agriculture articles but should be allowed to edit on their talk pages. Further, a year ago or so I looked into SlimVirgin's editing of animal rights pages and found nothing to complain about, so I think she should be allowed to continue editing animal rights pages. She appears blind to things about agriculture that don't involve animal rights but not blind to arguments pro and con concerning animal rights. What do others think? WAS 4.250 13:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

We've been through this, like everything else on this page it seems, several times. ArbCom won't take a case where normal dispute resolution methods have not been tried. In this case, some of us have accepted mediation, while others keep refusing. Also, in general ArbCom does not accept content disputes, and this one clearly is. Crum375 13:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

A minority is using means that are against policy to foist material that is against policy onto this article in spite of months of effort to resolve the problem. A rigged formal mediation is not required for arbcom to accept. WAS 4.250 14:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind explaining what you mean by 'rigged'? Crum375 14:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

And if you are so convinced that your position has clear merit, then it should prevail in mediation. So why are you resisting mediation? Crum375 14:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Formal mediation works by having people self select for who handles what case. There is nothing preventing someone from having a friend self select to handle their case. It is a rigged game for anyone who plays to win. WAS 4.250 14:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, it sounds like you are saying that mediation is hopelessly flawed, and therefore will never work. I suspect that if you come to ArbCom and say: "I want you to arbitrate a content dispute - I refuse mediation because I believe it's rigged", the odds of them taking the case are not good. Crum375 15:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

And as a separate point, WAS, I suggest you focus on the message, not the messengers. Attacking your fellow editors as having 'clouded judgment', or by calling them 'meatpuppets' of each other, violates WP:CIV and WP:NPA. If you want to achieve results, focus on the message, and in this case, accept mediation. Crum375 14:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I am describing troubling behavior and not attacking anyone. WAS 4.250 14:11, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

By that token, if I call someone 'an idiot', or 'a liar', for example, I could always say it's not a personal attack or being uncivil - I'm just describing his/her 'troubling behavior'. You say your fellow editors have 'clouded judgment' and are 'meatpuppets' of each other. Hopefully you can understand that these are clear violations of CIV and NPA. I really suggest you stop that, and try to focus on getting our differences resolved. Crum375 14:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Crum asks: why not mediation? At the same time, he reverts the removal of a portion of a sentence for which there is clearly no consensus. I am talking about the claim, re-introduced by SlimVirgin and then restored by Crum, that the terms are synonymous. When Crum restored this claim he did not support it with any talk page discussion, but his edit summary stated that the claim is supported by sources. The fact that there is absolutely no consensus to include this did not prevent him from blithely putting it back in the opening sentence of the article. When editors demonstrate their complete lack of interest in the question of consensus, and yet persistently ask why others do not agree to mediation, they are either blind to their own behavior or else playing a game. BCST2001 14:49, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Although you have just shown up here, many of us have been hashing these topics here for a long time now. So I have supported my view for the equivalence of the terms, per reliable sources, on this Talk page, many times. I fail to follow your logic, however. If consensus cannot be reached by Talk page discussions, isn't mediation the next logical step? What other possibility do you see? Crum375 14:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Informal mediation. Perhaps by some recent contributors to this page. It seems to me that is happenning now at a slow pace. If so, arbcom can and should wait for them to see what they can do. WAS 4.250 15:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I am for any attempt by anyone to resolve this dispute, although my own experience with informal mediation is that it produces huge amounts of words and no results. However, I prefer that to just going around in circles. Crum375 15:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Crum, I have yet to see you disagree with SV. You seem to at least be a meatpuppet. Jav43 16:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

evidence?-Localzuk^(talk) 16:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen them disagree, they edit the same series of articles at the same time, and they tag-team. That's more evidence than you have that I'm a sockpuppet, at least :P. Jav43 16:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Although we agree on many issues, we also disagree on some. In this topic, you'll note that I fought hard to keep FF focused on both crops and animals, whereas SV seemed inclined to focus on animals only. While we are at it, can you show me where you disagreed, for example, with NathanLee? Crum375 16:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

e.g. mediation. Jav43 17:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Artificial split

Because you and SV and Localzuk ignore them and just repeat yourselves instead. At one point, Localzuk questioned the integrity of peer-reviewed sources as compared to web blogs. Useless. Jav43 16:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I did no such thing! I have said many times that the 2 should be used together and that they have equal use (not blogs - they are inherently unreliable, but the media) and neither should 'override' the other. I will ask you to not misrepresent my arguments again please.-Localzuk^(talk) 16:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you did. You wanted this site used as a source [[1]] (a web blog) and you denegrated the clear definitions from peer-reviewed sources in this comment:

So, I will restate the situation: We aren't saying the terms always mean the same thing, just that they are sometimes used to mean the same thing. The evidence above shows this quite clearly. You are simply refusing to accept something that is blatant and obvious - because you are too hung up on academic sources.-Localzuk(talk) 13:43, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Res ipsa loquitur. Jav43 16:20, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Other than that site not being a blog, yes you are right - I did say that... The site in question is a farm which produces organic produce. It is an example of real world usage of the terms, as are the media sources being thrown at you by the dozen. And my comment stands - you are too hung up on academic sources. You seem to think that only academic use of the terms is acceptable and that the media usage is somehow lower quality despite it being common.-Localzuk^(talk) 16:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Self-published internet document = web blog. And yes, of course use of terms in peer-reviewed sources is more reliable than use of terms in the mainstream public or in the media. Jav43 16:44, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Woah there. Not all self published sites are blogs. Wow! I've never seen that claim anywhere before. And once again, no, peer reviewed sources are not of more importance than use in the media. -Localzuk^(talk) 17:29, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Lead image is from an ANTI/hate activist site against factory farming

Since this image seems to HAVE to be in the lead for some editors. I submit the following:

image is from a hate site (activist against factory farming site)
text is a synthesis of different articles

This image should not generally be used (as per arguments I've seen on the PETA page by the very same editors to exclude sites critical of PETA). I suggest this image should not be used in the lead or in this article. NathanLee 22:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Nathan, we have been through this a thousand times (it seems), but let me try once more to explain it to you. This is an article about factory farming, and this image highlights the key issue of the animal aspect of FF - the fact that animals are kept in very confined quarters. The gestation crates issue is important enough that McDonald's and other large food companies have decided to move away from it. If you have another image that so well exemplifies the key issues of FF, let's have it for discussion. An image of a bunch of feeding cows won't do, since it won't be clear it's not just a regular large farm, and it won't highlight the key controversy about animal confinement, as this one clearly does. Crum375 22:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

So why is it that any reference to an anti-peta site was excluded from the PETA article on these grounds, but it seems "factory farming" has a different set of rules with the same editors because it suits them in this case. THAT is the bit I don't understand. One might reasonably expect that a site that's about ending factory farms and promoting other types of farms might distort, misrepresent or flat out lie about things.. But here we are with an image lifted from that site with synthesised assumptions in the description (saying that information from another article applies to this image) and (as has been explained to you a number of times) about a very specific farming practice that does not necessarily represent anything "typical" other than what a bunch of pro vegan/pro animal lib sources would have you believe. Just because you think it representative from an animal lib background does not mean it's realistic. This is about a modern farming technique NOT about the animal lib's issue with it and a practice that is being phased out. Given that a large chunk of the food that supplies many millions of people is from this practice: might pictures of people having cheap, available meat in supermarkets be more indicative? Certainly. But because you are obsessed with the POV that there is controversy and nothing else that's all you can see. Of course if this didn't have to be called "factory farming" (a favourite term of activists and media when talking negative connotations) then perhaps you'd be able to move beyond "this has to show controversy".

I'll suggest again: avoid having this image and avoid having a lead image. This article should be less about a shocking picture to push controversy and more about text content. 125.215.145.249 05:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

This image is used in the PETA article, and our source for it is an anti-PETA activist site. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 05:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

SV, that image isn't trying to say anything about "common practice", but rather to refer to one event. Your image of sows, on the other hand, is attempting to describe "common practice in the industry as a whole" - obviously in an attempt to inflame. As we've said again and again, it is not representative of the industry - of hogs or of other animal species - and is not NPOV, AND is insufficiently described at the source (you claim it's representative, but have provided no sources showing that THIS IMAGE is representative). Why can't you find another image? Oh, right, because this one is better at inflaming. Jav43 16:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Please look for another image that is definitely of a factory farm and that clearly shows the issue of close confinement, and we can look at it. The problem is that the alternative you came up with showed a bunch of ecstatically happy cows with plenty of space on a family farm in New York. But if you come up with realistic alternatives, then of course we'd be willing to look at them. Perhaps you could post them here in the first instance. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand who this "we" is that is the arbitrator who apparantly owns this page. But anyway, I have provided no less than 6 separate images to lead this page, at various times. You've reverted me each time. I don't understand, but whatever. Oh, and that image of cows on what you said was a family farm - that is as cramped as any dairy will ever get. 11:10 cow-stall ratio is the highest imagined by Hoard's Dairyman, and that image seemed to portray that. Jav43 23:54, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

Perhaps this source could help us with the issue of definitions. It's the Grace Factory Farm project, which is run by farmers. Here they have some information on the definition of factory farm. We could contact them to ask for further, specialist reading material. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 23:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

That is an activist site, just in case you hadn't noticed. But of course, any peer-reviewed or well-researched sources obtained through that site could be reviewed for individual merit. Jav43 23:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It is an activist site, but it's one composed of farmers, so they're likely to know what they're talking about. Jav, you can't claim that industry sources are acceptable only when you agree with them. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Erm? No, I haven't done so. But an organization devoted to furthering a particular cause often is partisan and fails to portray both sides of any given issue. Jav43 01:32, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It's just that you seemed earlier to recommend industry sources, which are highly partisan. Perhaps I'm remembering it wrongly; if so, I apologize. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's have a contest for which side can write the most neutral set of articles on industrial farming

Arbcom is the right place to deal with a handful of people who are willing to do anything to win. But I hate fighting. So I'm willing to write off this article as I do many others. But I am not willing to write off a whole category of articles. I am not willing to fight so long as the current stand off is maintained: that of slim and friends editing this article and not playing ownership games with other agriculture articles. By the way, slim's request for editors here to add content should be heeded. Add content to the other agriculture articles while slim and friends show what they can do here. Who knows? Slim is usually a great editor. Maybe as she researches and improves this article she will find over time the scales falling from her eyes. Meanwhile it is an excuse to say she reverts your edits here because she is not reverting your or my edits (she tried twice but let it go) on the other agriculture articles. Let's add content and see what happens. WAS 4.250 12:26, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's have a contest for which side can write the most neutral set of articles on industrial agriculture. In my opinion , in comparing factory farming with our suite of articles:

we are winning hands down. WAS 4.250 12:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

In this contest each side may under the rules of the contest, as well as under GFDL and wikipedia standard practice, take material from the other side so long as that fact is acknowledged in the edit summary as in "Moved content here from factory farming" with the best possible end result being articles that can be trivially merged or the next best thing - articles that are similar yet different in some clear specific ways that can be arbitrated or mediated point by point. WAS 4.250 12:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I've stumbled onto a useful harness for people willing to do anything to win. Slim, I challenge you to win at writing the most neutral (and otherwise best by wikipedia standards) suite of articles on "Industrial agriculture" and if for you that is identical to factory farming then in my opinion that fact alone will mean you will lose the contest. Let's put your finely honed instincts for winning to a good cause. What do you say? WAS 4.250 13:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a competition, it is not here to 'win' it is here to work together. Working on dozens of articles about the same subject is duplicating information and pointless. We should simply agree on which articles should stay and which shouldn't. All people are going to have to compromise, it is as simple as that.

Mediation

Finally!

My inactivity has been because I think this is the only way out, lets go for it!

--Cerejota 01:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want the mediation to suceed, I recommend that you remove the names of people like me who will not sign up for formal mediation and I recommend that you limit it to this one article. Who knows, if that goes well, maybe I'll see my fears are unfounded and will join a second formal mediation on the question of number of articles. WAS 4.250 04:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As far as I am concerned there are two obstacles preventing agreement to mediation. The first is the total disregard by SlimVirgin, Crum, etc., for the lack of consensus about certain issues. Most significantly, the insistence by those two editors on re-inserting the statement that "factory farming" is synonymous with other terms, despite the clear lack of consensus to do so. This complete lack of interest in the state of disagreement between the parties shows bad faith, controlling behavior, and a disregard for correct procedure. This has been pointed out and ignored, compounding the problem. The second obstacle is the idea that mediation should determine the number of articles. There is a procedure for deleting articles, and it is very noticeable that those editors wishing to delete articles are very unwilling to follow this procedure. I consider this further evidence of controlling behavior, an attempt to bypass a process these editors fear will not deliver their objectives. Not once has any of these editors commented on the arguments put that industrial agriculture is an important article deserving of existence in its own right. This continual tactic of ignoring whatever does not suit is, again, destructive of good will. If these two obstacles are not addressed by the relevant editors, I shall unfortunately be forced to vote against mediation. BCST2001 04:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That is possibly the worst analysis of the situation someone could have made, with it being wrong in nearly all areas. Firstly, adding sourced statements to an article does not need consensus - they are sourced to reliable sources so they should stay. If there is an opposing viewpoint then that should also be stated within the article. It doesn't need to be either/or. Second, this discussion is not about deleting anything, it is about co-ordinating the subject matter in the most effective manner and as such afd would be the wrong venue for that discussion. It is a merge/split discussion and the appropriate place to discuss that is on one of the articles in question. For someone who has never actually edited the article, you sure do throw accusations about people being controlling etc... I would advise you to take a long read of the archives before you make any more statements as you are approaching this problem as if there is a black and white outcome waiting to be reached whereas it is much more grey and needs work from all sides.-Localzuk^(talk) 07:21, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The above tendentious comment by Localzuk unfortunately does not encourage me to agree to mediation. I do not see any good faith argumentation here, nor any genuine reflection on what I have written. BCST2001 07:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

It is ironic, BCST2001, that you decry improper behavior on the part of others, yet you decline to take the right course of action to counter it – mediation. Think about it – if you are so right about everything, what do you have to fear in mediation? Crum375 11:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That is your view, however I can't help but noticing that the points I have raised are yet again utterly ignored. I can only consent to mediation if I see some evidence of good faith from opposing editors. Thus far I have yet to see any. BCST2001 12:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If SlimVirgin, Crum375, and Localzuk really do want to engage in mediation, then they need to ask themselves what it is worth to them. I have indicated that there are two obstacles to my agreeing to mediation. A gesture of goodwill by those editors in relation to these two obstacles will enable me to consent to mediation. Thus far, there is no evidence of any willingness to consider such a gesture. Without such a gesture, I cannot consent to mediation. But if there is such a willingness, I urge those editors to demonstrate it. BCST2001 16:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that both of your issues are fundamental issues we are discussing here. We have shown one thing but you disagree - there is no way round this issue (btw. I am talking about the synonymity of the terms). We are discussing the overall future of this subject area, and have many, many times tried to compromise to no avail - how can we compromise further without completely abandoning our position. Please read the archives to see the prior attempts at compromise and what our positions are and how we are compromising, otherwise I think you feel we are just being completely stubborn when we are not.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

You could compromise by agreeing to remove, for the duration of the mediation process, the clause from the opening line describing factory farming as synonymous with other terms. BCST2001 17:24, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

What does that gain us? Nothing as far as I can see. Denying mediation on that basis would simply be ridiculous.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:36, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem ridiculous to me. Clearly several editors find the claim that the terms are synonymous to be false, despite your insistence that it is "well sourced." Furthermore, it is part of an attempt to justify deletion of other articles. That is why deleting the clause during the mediation process would be a goodwill gesture. It seems, however, to be a price too high. Would I be correct in assuming that you are completely unwilling to consider such a gesture? BCST2001 17:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I just don't see the value of it, as it is part and parcel of the entire issue which has been discussed now for over a year. Removing something that one 'side' thinks is correct and the other doesn't won't achieve anything as far as I can see. I am unwilling to remove it due to the fact it is the underlying issue we are discussing - it would be like me asking you to remove any mention of the terms being a subset of each other - which I am not going to do, as there are sources to back them up. The 2 ideas work with each other - one is based on scientific information and one is based on the real world usage of the terms. Neither should be removed, both should be included with an explanation of the discrepancy.-Localzuk^(talk) 17:57, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't see the value of it? OK, no problem. That's your decision to make. BCST2001 18:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

So would I be correct in assuming that Crum375 and SlimVirgin feel similarly to Localzuk, and are uninterested in discussing my requests further? BCST2001 00:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

A question

Nathan, a question for you: why don't you help to write this article? Don't remove anything, just add to it. Find some sources, read them, and add something. The current version is not good. The sooner we get a first draft written, the sooner we can look at what we have and decide what to call it, and also decide what direction it needs to be taken in. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:33, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Because you revert whatever we do. Jav43 16:08, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I've long attempted to get this article to a proper, verifiable definition. You on the other hand just keep protecting your version of it. I dug up a lot of references, and look what you've done to the page again: put it back to your simplistic view of what agriculture entails. Had you bothered to read my discussion (rather than just ignoring the talk page) you might have realised this.

And I'll say again: you are mistaken if you think that you must never remove anything or change anything. But assuming that's correct:There was content added to the lead, references etc (that you say I never use) and rewording which YOU HAVE REMOVED. So can you point me to this policy that you have that says "SlimVirgin's edits must never be removed, and you can only add information which is approved by SlimVirgin". Because that's what you're arguing for and that's what your edits have been doing. You've removed the input of at least 4 or 5 editors to put it back to yours. Any reason for that other than to enforce your version of the page? NathanLee 22:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Nathan, can you show me a diff where you have added text of your own to this article (or any of the related farming articles)? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

There's the "history" tab for the article if you want that information. Specifically back to the contributions around the time when you began one of the edit wars that ended up in the latest round of page protection. I'd advise you instead to assume good faith and stop slandering my edits. I'd also point you to where I referenced britannica and others to put a more accurate description. Perhaps also you can look at the PETA page and the struggle I had to include referenced material from 60 minutes, sydney morning herald etc. Had you also bothered to read my contributions in this discussion page you'd have seen that I've provided many many links as part of an ongoing attempt to refine the page content. How about references that are in the article currently Difference is that unlike you I've made use of the discussion page rather than reverting. Hell: you even shifted around my references at one point because you thought my research fitted your argument. Quite frankly I find your request absurd and an avoidance of answering any real question in the previous post. So I'll ask again: Any reason why you have removed other editors' work to keep reverting this page back to your version if this notion of not "destroying" other's work is so critical to you? NathanLee 06:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Mediation down the drain?

As BCST2001 has opposed it... :(--Cerejota 02:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be odd if an account that only recently arrived on the talk page were able to turpedo mediation just because we didn't agree to remove certain phrases from the article. In fact, if it were allowed to stand, it would suggest a review of the RfM process is needed, because it would be a clear abuse. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no abuse, and you and Crum and Localzuk really need to start looking at what other editors say rather than attacking the editors. My comments were persistently ignored or rejected out of hand. I do not believe anything I wrote was unreasonable. You yourself chose to ignore everything I wrote. That said, nothing is set in stone, and it remains the case that if I see some evidence of good will and good faith, mediation is always still possible. But as things stand I do not see that mediation is worthwhile. BCST2001 02:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BCST2001 actually makes a good point. I don't understand why SV/Crum/Localzuk require the article to retain statements they say are supported that others say are unsupported while continually reverting additions of statements that others say are supported but SV/Crum/Localzuk say are unsupported. Seems hypocritical. Jav43 02:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am an editor involved in this dispute. I have a stake in the outcome, which is the reason I am contributing to this talk page. Whether I edit the article or not is irrelevant, especially given that the article is in a long-term dispute. Other editors would we wiser to edit the article less. It is clearly an illegitimate process to list me as a party to the dispute, then try to suggest my vote doesn't count because you don't like how I voted. And, yet again, there is a willingness of certain editors to do anything except consider the actual words written on the talk page. How much easier it would be for you to consider my entirely legitimate request, which is that a highly contentious clause be deleted for the duration of the mediation process. BCST2001 02:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You only turned up a few days ago, and now you're trying to use the RfM to blackmail us. Have you edited this page with another account? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not blackmailing anybody. I made it very clear in advance that I consider the problem here is that I cannot commit to mediation where I have no belief that certain editors are really prepared to moderate their position. I made this clear, and made clear that I thought it was possible to do something about this. Every single word I have written about this has been ignored. Mediation may be a Holy Grail to you, but that is why I urged you to help make it possible. I do not intend to discuss anything unrelated to the issues surrounding this article. Please follow suit. I reiterate: at present I see no evidence of a genuine will to work toward the best encyclopedic outcome. That is the sum of my concern. BCST2001 02:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You are using your veto power over the RfM to force change to the article. That is unacceptable.

Please answer the question: have you edited this page with another account? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not "forcing change" to the article. I am proposing the deletion of one clause on a temporary basis as a gesture of goodwill. A clause which, by the way, already was deleted until you insisted on restoring it. Clearly neither you nor Localzuk consider my request reasonable. That's fine. I'm disappointed with your decision in this regard, just as you are disappointed with my vote against mediation. As for your question: I am not a sockpuppet. That is all I intend to say on this matter, and I expect you to drop it on this talk page. I have every right to contribute to this talk page, and my behavior on this page has been entirely proper, so please stop diverting attention from the issues. BCST2001 03:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

If you have posted on this page previously with another account, you're a sockpuppet. It's a violation of SOCK to act in a way that avoids the scrutiny of other editors who might have good reason to track your contributions. As you're now behaving in a highly controversial manner, and attempting to scupper mediation that several editors want, we have very good reason to need to know whether you've been involved in this dispute before as someone else. Please review WP:SOCK carefully. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It is such a pity that you are so determined to fight an underhanded battle rather than actually try to achieve anything. If you bothered to read and digest what I wrote, and if you had an ounce of flexibility and imagination, I would be voting for mediation. I honestly wonder what you think my agenda is. By the way, I have done nothing controversial. I proposed a condition: the condition was rejected out of hand. So I made the judgment that at present mediation is not worthwhile. That's it. BCST2001 03:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Extortion and blackmail will achieve nothing. Crum375 03:28, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a cheek to talk about anyone being underhand, when you're clearly the account of a previous user. Be honest and say who you are, or please go away and leave this page and the RfM alone. The last thing we need is more shenanigans. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:29, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am neither blackmailing, nor extorting, nor being underhanded. BCST2001 03:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You create a sockpuppet to arrive here to tell us that, unless we remove certain claims from the article — claims that are one of the reasons we are seeking mediation in the first place — you will use your veto power to scupper the mediation for everyone else. But that's not blackmail, underhanded behavior, or dishonesty ... SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 03:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

SlimVirgin, that comment is false in every way. BCST2001 03:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Amusing how SV/Crum/Localzuk only object to BCST's tactics, and (again) completely refuse to address the point made. That certainly vindicates BCST. Jav43 03:59, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I addressed his points and find them to be unreasonable demands, that's quite simple really and I don't know how I can say it any more clearly. Demanding we do someting else mediation won't be accepted is not good behaviour, especially from an editor who only arrived on the page very recently.-Localzuk^(talk) 07:08, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

No, you have not come close to describing why so-called "sourced" statements with which you agree should be in the article, while truly sourced statements that contradict those should not. Jav43 14:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Accusations of people being Sockpuppets

Why does Slimvirgin continually accuse people of being sockpuppets? The only reason I can think of is a guilty conscience regarding Slimvirgin/Crum375... Perhaps SlimVirgin should give others the benefit of the doubt that she apparently desires to be given herself. Her disruptive behavior should stop. Jav43 03:58, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Jav, if someone says: "You must do what I tell you, or else I'll destroy your mediation", do you really consider that as acceptable behavior, regardless of which side he's on? Crum375 04:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Crum, I don't see how that makes one immediately cry out "Sockpuppet! Sockpuppet! Sockpuppet!" Jav43 15:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous analysis. I am an editor. I have the right to agree to mediation, as I equally have the right to disagree. On what grounds do I make my decision? One possibility is through negotiation. Negotiation is not blackmail. The fact that you and SlimVirgin and Localzuk rejected my attempt at negotiation does not make it blackmail. I continue to believe my suggestion was reasonable. And I continue to conclude that the utter refusal to consider it, or to enter into any productive discussion with me, is a legitimate ground for me to reject mediation. As I have said repeatedly, I am not in principle against mediation, and nothing is ever set in stone. But as things stand, and as far as I am concerned, agreeing to mediation does not seem wise at present. Calling this situation "blackmail" is false and unhelpful. I could simply have not responded to the mediation request. What I did instead was indicate clearly what the obstacles to my agreement were, and attempt to initiate a dialogue about how to overcome these obstacles. It is a pity that the relevant editors have not realized there is a wiser course than the one they have followed, if they truly wish to enter a mediation process. BCST2001 04:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't you have any sense of shame? Do you really call forcing editors to agree to edit according to your edict, that if we disagree with you, you'll scuttle our mediation, acceptable behavior? Next thing you'd want us to pay you for your vote? And if you are a sockpuppet, that is even more shameful, as that would mean that you don't even have the courage to stand up for your own edit history. Crum375 04:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Again: I have forced nobody to do anything. I issued no edict: I requested a gesture of good faith, or at least a meaningful response. I didn't get it. Negotiation, flexibility, good faith, imagination: these are the elements required for mediation to succeed. That is why I seek signs of them. Finding such signs gives me a reason to believe mediation is worthwhile. The absence of such signs gives me a reason to think it's not. But if you feel compelled to continue with your abuse and false characterizations, go ahead. BCST2001 04:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that as a gesture of good faith, you should tell us whether you've edited this page before under a different name. Also, you should agree to mediation, so that we can finally get our issues here resolved. AGF means we all assume that others will play fairly - by coming in disguised as someone else, and trying to force us to edit according to your demands, you are starting out on the wrong foot. Crum375 04:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

As I said, if you feel compelled to continue with the abuse and false characterizations, go ahead. I am already quite aware that you think I should agree to mediation. Unfortunately you seem unwilling to do anything whatsoever to make that more likely. The question I have therefore to ask myself is whether mediation is likely to "finally get our issues here resolved." That is a judgment I have to make, and I have the right to conclude, at this moment, that it is not. Look: the reality is you know that the clause in question is highly contentious, and you know that I am not "forcing you to delete it"; I am asking you to voluntarily remove it for the duration of mediation. In my opinion, the utter refusal to do so suggests that you are more interested in controlling the article than really mediating with other editors. You disagree with that analysis: fine. But that is my feeling. If you can give me reasons to change my feeling, so much the better: that is what I am looking for. BCST2001 04:52, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I really think your actions and words speak for themselves, and believe you should be very ashamed of yourself. Crum375 05:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

And I really think you are looking at things the wrong way. BCST2001 05:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

We'll let objective readers of this page and observers of your behavior be judges. Crum375 05:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You can now have your mediation

I deleted me and BCST2001 from the mediation request. You can now have your mediation and see if any progress can be made. WAS 4.250 14:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

WAS, that makes no sense to me. The whole point of mediation is that anybody who was involved with the topic, or has expressed strong opinions about the issues, should participate. If you and BCST just sit on the fence while we mediate, you may then disagree with the outcome and continue the same disputes we had before. Unless you and all involved parties agree to mediation, continuing it would be an exercise in futility, in my opinion. Crum375 14:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

At any time new editors can arrive on the page and form a new consensus. Mediation can not stop a new consensus from forming. Just treat me and the new guy like we were away on vacation. WAS 4.250 15:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

BCST has made extensive arguments why he feels he is involved in the case. For you to tell us he is not, and to remove his name from the list, while his 'disagree' vote is there, is a little odd. As far as your own position, you are one of the most involved parties on this page. You are a large reason we need to mediate - specifically your refusal to agree to a single or dual page approach, and even refusal to negotiate over it. You have yourself created and supported the POV forks that we will be addressing. I just can't see how you can logically sit this out - if you need to go on vacation, so should we. Crum375 15:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone read the rules to mediation? Accordingly, this mediation will be rejected if people involved do not join or agree to it.

All parties should sign below, indicating that they agree to mediate the issue. If any party fails to sign, or if a party indicates they do not agree, then the mediation will be rejected.

--Blind Eagle^{talk~contribs} 16:09, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. And WAS is very much involved. Crum375 18:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

WAS was WAS 4.250 18:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I was actually looking at the Disagree of BCST2001. One disagreement to work with mediation will sink the entire process. --Blind Eagle^{talk~contribs} 19:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Any involved editor who refuses to sign on within the time limit will sink the process also. WAS is the fourth most prolific contributor on this page (per this tool), and is a large reason for the need for mediation, as he refuses to allow a single or dual page to handle FF, has produced and edited POV forks, and refuses to negotiate over those issues. Crum375 19:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It is correct to say that WAS was highly involved, but it is incorrect to say that he is the reason mediation is needed. Quite obviously, mediation is needed because SV/Crum/Localzuk are stuck in a cave, watching the shadows of what appear to them to be the horrors of agriculture and refusing to step out of the cave to see the truth. (Sorry, I just felt pedantic and wanted to use Plato.) Jav43 22:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I feel sure that, without WAS 4.250 and NathanLee, the rest of us would have hammered out a compromise by now. If they don't want to be part of mediation and are willing to withdraw from editing these pages entirely, that's fine. But if they want to continue editing them, they can't claim to be uninvolved for mediation purposes only. Otherwise, the rest of us will reach an agreement, and those two will continue to edit war. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually SlimVirgin: without you and your inability to compromise the rest of us (6-7 editors) are in agreement. Without your revert warring, deletion of other terms (like "intensive farming") to protect your version of the page: this whole thing would not be an issue. It's been your inability to ever use the talk page constructively or to accept that there is more to agriculture than your limited view allows that is the sticking point. I would ask what compromise have you made whatsoever to accept anything other than your version of the page? There's been lots of evidence presented that there's a more accurate/correct definition of the terms than your simplistic view. You ignore discussion, come in and contribute either accusations of sock puppetry or fallacious arguments. After a compromise on the lead was reached: you go and undo it to put it back to your version without any discussion or consultation. How about you withdraw from editing (as numerous editors have pointed out you appear biased)? The page could then potentially move forward without your ownership or POV pushing behaviour.. NathanLee 02:47, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Nathan, I think your attack on SV above is way out of line. SV is the only one that actually writes in the article, most other people here just talk up a storm or revert. You, for example, were asked to provide a single diff of some writing to the article (after deluging the talk page for weeks) and we are still waiting for it. You may also notice that SV has tried to compromise - she agreed to change the name FF to Intensive Farming (for example), and she agreed to have more than one page to cover the subject. She is also not alone - there are other editors, myself included, who support her views, despite what you say. So please try to be constructive. If you really want to help, instead of again deluging the page with countless edits that seem to go around in circles, how about signing up for mediation? We are waiting for you. Crum375 03:49, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, many of us have made countless contributions. It's just that you and SV revert them, every single time, so they don't last -- and we aren't as willing to engage in long-term revert wars as you are. Jav43 04:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Crum375: what complete rubbish: Why the hell should I do what anyone with a mouse and the ability to click on the history page can do? For someone who can't be bothered reading my contributions.. That request was completely and utterly out of line and just another diversion from ever answering a straight question. How about you lot adhering to the dispute avoidance policy which states NOT TO REVERT others work, and that there are more constructive additions.

But let's look at some diffs then (since I guess that big often hit revert button must be getting in the way): this one showing SV reverting my addition of a referenced definition, an addition, another one, one that was the result of the discussion and consultation of others,more of the consensus editing, to fit the policy on international english terms [2] (and a bunch of other edits), more accurate sourced lead (reverted by SV). In fact all this was able to be found in the first few pages of the history.. Would you like me to explain how to use a mouse to drive a web application or can you do this for yourselves on any of the related pages (e.g. intensive farming that I supposedly never contribute to) since that part of your pointless request is still "outstanding" and I have no intention of wasting further time on doing what you yourselves can (and should) do. Perhaps I need to do more constructive edits (labelled "minor") like this one eh? NathanLee 06:44, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, those edits are riddled with removal of sourced information that is under dispute. The reverts were to get that information back. Also, merging a page back into its original to prevent POV forking is a minor task - similar to mopping up a spill in a supermarket...

What we have got here is 2 large chunks of text which spend their time attacking editors such as myself, SV and Crum. As I have asked, why not include both viewpoints on the subject rather than simply saying that one is wrong and we should all work with yours? Compromising by saying 'sometimes called' and sticking it in an origin section rather than the lead is not a very good compromise as far as I can see - and it still leads us to the place where we have loads of overlapping articles discussing the same subject.-Localzuk^(talk) 07:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

I feel that the thread-based nature of this forum is hindering our ability to reach a mutually acceptable conclusion.

I would like to make the following proposal:

Let's have anyone who wants to do so get together in an anonymous chatroom or in an instant messaging program -- or in a VOIP server -- to see whether we can reach consensus during a live meeting. Personally, I feel meeting via VOIP would be most fruitful, but if you don't have access to mics/speakers, any format would work.

If you would be willing to meet in some forum at some time, please say so. We can arrange a date/time after we determine whether anyone is willing to participate.

I hope this works. Jav43 23:38, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I tend to doubt it. I think the beauty of WP is that all is out in the open, and recorded for posterity. Any agreements hammered out in secret negotiations in smoke filled back rooms among specific participants, will be worthless once new editors show up. Crum375 00:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind in the least if you recorded everything. But recording for posterity isn't the problem here. We need to reach a solution now. Short term > long term. What is going on right now obviously isn't working. Jav43 01:14, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd be willing to try it if it would break the deadlock, though I feel we'd make more headway with a mediator involved. SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 01:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that recording wouldn't help, because we need to get everyone on board, including the WASs and the BCSTs and the future ones too. So any deals we cut secretly in a back room conversation will look suspicious, and will not satisfy others. The whole principle of the wiki is openness. Crum375 01:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Considering that you and SV speak off-wiki about wiki stuff continually, I really doubt that's a huge issue :P. How about just going for talking to one another in hopes of getting somewhere, rather than making everything about "winning"? Jav43 01:51, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Jav, it doesn't help that you continue to make assumptions about issues you have no knowledge of. Given that you've edited logged out, and that it revealed your IP address, I could start speculating about what your precise interest here is, but it wouldn't exactly be helpful, would it? SlimVirgin ^{(talk)(contribs)} 02:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I didn't make any assumptions here. I also have no idea what you're talking about regarding my "precise interest" - my interest is to get an accurate, impartial article. Jav43 04:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Personally, suggesting a VOIP to subject dialog has to be scariest solution I have ever seen in wikipedia. What happened to "in the internet no one knows you are a dog"?--Cerejota 02:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to have bark during a discussion, I'm fine by that :P. What's wrong with VOIP? It's not like voices will reveal your identity any more than an ip address would. Jav43 04:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that having a voice conversation would defeat the whole concept of the wiki. This is not a social club - we develop content by open and recorded collaboration in a wiki process. Crum375 04:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't understand your point of view here. A social club? Believe me, I have plenty better means to socialize. But guess what? Your thread-based IS NOT WORKING! *gasp* So what makes you refuse to try a live format? Have you ever engaged in a forum that uses simultaneous thread-based and live conversation to make decisions? Believe me, more gets done in live conversation. Jav43 04:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. I am sure any 2 people could reach agreement by voice or any other means. But that's not the wiki model. If 2 people agree, that doesn't mean that #3 and #4 who arrive tomorrow will agree, especially if the first two just discussed things privately. So our concept here is to have totally open discussions, where every word you utter is recorded and viewed by millions around the world, and anyone can contribute a statement at any point. It may not be as efficient as 2 people one-on-one, but in the long run it works and powers our dynamic project, whereas the private chats will produce your father's dusty dog-eared old encyclopedias. Crum375 04:33, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

That means nothing. You and I could agree to something here and now, on this thread, but next month SlimVirgin could take a peek, disagree, and make changes contrary to our agreement. Agreement between any individuals never binds all. And two things: a) published encyclopedic articles on this topic are much more accurate/impartial than the current version, and b) I'm not talking about a "private conversation" - I'm talking about letting everyone who's involved get together to try to work something out - but even if I were, there's nothing wrong with you and I forming an understanding *in any forum* that we bring here. Jav43 04:59, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

We'll have to disagree then, I think you just don't understand or appreciate the power of the wiki model. Private chats defeat that concept, as they leave no recorded trace, and don't let others inspect or participate. This is a wiki - if someone comes in tomorrow, they have full records of every discussion, every word that was every uttered. If you don't appreciate and accept that model, you are in the wrong place. Crum375 05:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I really don't understand where you're coming from, particularly since you continually converse offline with SlimVirgin. There's a difference between recording *discussion* and recording *changes*. Am I suddenly not allowed to speak offline to anyone about subjects which appear on Wikipedia? I find your position completely illogical. Oh well. Jav43 07:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)