Talk:Ina Coolbrith

Joaquin Miller's half-Indian "daughter"

Edited "Librarian" section with regard to Joaquin Miller's supposed daughter. It is not known who her parents were, and she was probably called "Calle Shasta" only by the popular press, based on the character found in Miller's book Life Amongst the Modocs.11 Arlington (talk) 06:06, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Latter Day Saint/Ex-Mormon?

Coolbrith is listed in the "Latter Day Saints" category, but is also listed on the Former Latter-day Saints article... I'm not a fan of list articles in general (I much prefer categories), so I've added her to the "Ex-Mormon" category... But the question is, did Coolbrith leave the LDS church prior to her death? In other words, should she be in the "Latter Day Saints" or "Ex-Mormon" category? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Porlob (talk • contribs) 13:14, October 1, 2006

I would say ex judging from the text.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomholladay (talk • contribs) 21:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

There's no evidence Coolbrith took part in Mormon observances or activities. Personally, I think she soured on the religion question by the time she was in her teens, and steered clear of any particular church her whole adult life. Binksternet (talk) 17:24, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

First white in California

"Pickett, Agness, and young Josephine, travelled overland to California in 1850. Josephine is said to have been the first white child to enter California, riding on the saddle of Jim Beckwourth. The family settled in Los Angeles."

Are Spanish children not caucasian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tomholladay (talk • contribs) 21:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the Hispanic white person question, Coolbrith was most certainly not the first Anglo-American or non-Hispanic European woman in California. A number of military wives, miner's wives and explorer's wives preceded her. There were Anglo girls, too. An easy example disproving the Coolbrith myth is the Anglo woman Rachel, lover of Thomas O. Larkin, who landed in San Francisco in 1832 and birthed a daughter in Monterey in 1833. Coolbrith came to California a generation later, in 1851. Binksternet (talk) 17:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Gertrude Stein

I've seen some sources that say Gertrude Stein was influenced by Coolbrith the librarian, but I am not seeing anything more than circumstantial evidence such as Stein visiting the library at a time when Coolbrith was in charge. Anything more solid? Binksternet (talk) 22:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

No infobox

Like the FA-Class Emily Dickenson article, let's not put an infobox on this one. Binksternet (talk) 22:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Why? I see an infobox on Emily Dickenson--Cs california (talk) 09:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Ah, I see the infobox has elbowed its way into that biography after years of resistance.

As for "why", there are several classic reasons. Per Help:Infobox, the infobox is not required. "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article."

For many years, editors involved with creative artist biographies have complained that the infobox trivializes the artist's work and is redundant to a well-written lead paragraph. The WP:WikiProject Composers has debated the issue, with a strong contingent defending the absence of an infobox for many of the biographies. Some of those composers have received an infobox anyway, but many still don't have one (see Dmitri Shostakovich, Gustav Mahler, Josquin des Prez, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov, Giacomo Puccini, Georg Solti.) The Opera WikiProject grappled with the infobox but could not come to a project-wide consensus; the result of this is that a few opera singers such as Grace Moore and Giovanni Martinelli do not have infoboxes. Other WikiProjects have defended the absence of an infobox for certain articles, so we have the book Pilgrim at Tinker Creek without one, as well as the London neighbourhood Mayfair, the biochemistry topic DNA, the fashion item Armadillo shoe, the portrait artist William Hilton (painter), the humorist P. G. Wodehouse, the novelist Hugh Walpole, a history about the Death of Cleopatra, and the general subjects of Menstrual cycle and Prison education.

Poets without infoboxes include Ezra Pound, Caroline Congdon, Charles Henry Webb, Faltonia Betitia Proba, Hamish Henderson, Robert Henryson, Ester Naomi Perquin and Sappho.

Some editors have been blocked, admonished, or restricted from adding/removing infoboxes without discussion or consensus. Check out the 2013 decision at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Final_decision. It was a big problem for years, with editors warring back and forth.

Why should Coolbrith have an infobox? What are the arguments in favor? I think it would be redundant and trivial. If the biography did have an infobox, it would repeat the information found in the lead section. It would necessarily shrink her portrait by putting it inside a box of the same size. It would unduly emphasize her one marriage and one child, neither of which lasted very long. It would fail to mention her very close connection to Joaquin Miller.

I would rather see the reader dig into the article to get their facts. Binksternet (talk) 15:28, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. My argument for infoboxes is:

1) ease of access to information especially for people with disabilities using including but not limited to people screen readers.

2) data consistency between wikipedia projects. It makes it easier to cross reference data between wikipedia projects and grab the data using scripts and software.

You can set the portrait size in the infobox and you can designate a length of time on the marriage.I am not putting an infobox in if there are objections but I did notice most of the liberal arts pages are the ones where there is debate on it. -- Cs california (talk) 17:13, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree with User:Cs california that having data consistency is a good thing. Ease of access for parsing this information sounds useful. Standardizing on infobox makes it easier for search engines to parse birth date, for example, though I think modern search engines can find Coolbrith's birth date. I put together a sample infobox in my sandbox User:Nereocystis/Ina_Coolbrith, so we have a starting point to criticize. Born, died, resting place, birth name are all very standard for any person. Age at death is automatically displayed. Occupation and awards might be useful, so I added them. I chose an arbitrary size for the image; the image can be increased or decreased as desired. I passed over notable works, because I think that is part of the objections of User:Binksternet. I also skipped her marriage and the birth of her child, which was mostly unknown during her life. I don't have a strong opinion on skipping this info or adding it, but I wanted to start somewhere. I don't see a place to Joaquin Miller in the infobox; influenced is deprecated, and there isn't a category for friend. But Miller is still in the bigger article. I don't want to fit everything in an infobox, but I do want to have a bit of information. In passing, I noticed that User:Binksternet has a box for his own user page. No judgment here. Obviously this infobox does not tell everything about his life, but it summarizes a few parts of his life. Nereocystis (talk) 21:12, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

References that may be useful

• "Stories from the Files: Ina Coolbrith, as the Literary Associate of Bret Harte." The Overland Monthly, 1920. By Ada Kyle Lynch
• Many Californias: literature from the Golden State, Gerald W. Haslam, 1999
• "California's great poets stuffed into one primer", SFGate, 2003, David Kipen
• "Ina Coolbrith, California Poet", Marian Taylor, 1914, The Overland Monthly
• Theatre West: Image and Impact, Robert Károly Sarlós, 1990
• San Francisco Blue Book; the Fashionable Private Address Directory, 1902 (list of Bohemian Club members)
• The New society blue book; San Francisco, Oakland, Piedmont, Alameda, 1922 (list of Bohemian Club members)
• The New Society Blue Book - 1928 (list of Bohemian Club members)
• "The Joaquin Miller Foundation", by William W. Winn. California Historical Society quarterly, Volume 32, 1953. Contains a description of Joaquin Miller's funeral service and Coolbrith's poem "Vale, Joaquin", read by Richard Hotaling.
• Notable American women, 1607-1950: a biographical dictionary, Volume 2. James et al. 1971
• San Francisco: a cultural and literary history, Mick Sinclair, 2004
• A companion to California, James David Hart, 1987
• American cultural rebels: avant-garde and bohemian artists, writers and musicians from the 1850s through the 1960s, Roy Kotynek, John Cohassey, 2008

Peer review results

At the article's peer review (Wikipedia:Peer review/Ina Coolbrith/archive1), Finetooth recommended a number of fixes, the great majority which were implemented. Left undone:

• Bibliography locations: I have not added locations to bibliography listings where they are universities of known location or if the location is in the publisher's name as it is for Oakland Public Library. I don't think people need have it made plain that Brigham Young University is in Provo, Utah, or that Stanford University is in Palo Alto, California.
• Modern commentary lacking: I have yet to add a paragraph or two about modern analysis of Coolbrith or the inclusion of Coolbrith's poetry in modern anthologies. Such analysis is rare, to say the least. The closest that the article comes so far are brief indications by other poets laureate—one in the lead section expressed by Carol Muske-Dukes, and one in the Death section where Robert Hass includes a Coolbrith poem in a street installation. I can see that a section analyzing Coolbrith's poetry, with observations taken from all times past and modern, would be useful and appropriate. Binksternet (talk) 17:56, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

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