Talk:Digambara/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

Digambar -> Digambara

My suggestion it to rename this article from Digambar to Digambara. -Abhishikt 01:25, 7 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abhishikt (talk • contribs)

Something's wrong here

My understanding of the word 'Digambar' is that it is a compound word with 'Dhik' - to deny, to refuse, to discard and 'Ambar' - which I assumed to have something to do with clothes. Digambars are naked, which means that they reject clothes. This is corroborated by the translation of Digambar as 'sky-clad', which means that 'dig' - sky and 'ambar' - clad, since Shwetambar means 'white clad' and ambar is the common factor. This is not what the web is saying. According to the web/popular belief, which is probably where these interpretations came from, 'ambar' means sky, which is contrary to what I said earlier. My interpretation would work with Shwetambar's translation as white-clothed people.

So yeah, it most definitely does not mean sky-clad. The only reason I'm not changing it myself is because I'm not certain what ambar means. My Sanskrit is rusty. - Flapit (talk) 11:09, 25 November 2010 (UTC)


Dig in english means Direction and Ambar means Clothes. So, Dig+Ambar = Directions + Clothes (Dishayen hi jinka Vastra hai) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richajain.asm (talk • contribs) 11:43, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

sect subsect tree

I have added collapsable sect-subsect tree in Denomination Section, based on reference book which is cited and also looked some books on Google Books to improve it. Please make suggestions and improve it further. --Nizil (talk) 07:22, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

Page has been Vandalized

The page has suffered a major changes from single user using multiple user IDs ,most of them are blocked. Rahul_RJ_jain

Rahuljain2307

He also goes with name

Rahul Jain

The Rahul Jain

I request you to restore the page to earlier version. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gauravjns (talk • contribs) 10:35, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello Gaurav, thank you for raising your concerns. Rahul is one WikiProject Jainism's finest editors. The version of the article before his edits may seem longer, but it had no reliable sources. Rahul's edits properly formatted this article and also gave it reliable sources. However, I do understand your point, that some of the information from an older version actually belongs to this article. I have added back in a decent portion of that information with reliable sources. Please feel free to add in additional reliable sources. I did not add the following back in, because I felt it wasn't necessary-
Jain Digambara Sects [1]

--Aayush18 (talk) 18:39, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

untitled

Why does Skyclad redirect here when there are two articles actually CALLED Skyclad! 68.108.115.69 08:24, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the ridiculous redirection. Nobody who types in the term Skyclad would expect to or want to read an obscure subject with an obscure title relating to Jainism. Either they are looking for the band or they are looking for the concept from which the band took its name from. --60.241.170.216 (talk) 14:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

What does sky-clad acually mean? -Wookipedian (talk) 18:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

It means nudism for a spiritual purpose. The expression comes from India, as this article explains. I also came here from a redirect. I think it should lead to the disambig page. There should also be an article on Spiritual nudism, if there is not already. Steve Dufour (talk) 16:05, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
IP editor, while a Hindu sect may seem obscure to you, I assure you there are far more Jains in the world than Wiccans. It's from the Sanskrit concept that Gardner got the idea for his nude rituals in Wicca. Gardner took a lot of things from Hinduism. Though in Hindu works I've seen it phrased as, "clad with the sky." - CorbieV☊ 18:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Definition of Digambar

Right now the page says dig means direction and ambar means clothes. However as per my information dig means sky and ambar means clothes. So digambar means one whose clothes is sky. Please let me know your response. Grsalvi (talk) 03:14, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Digambara/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Sainsf (talk · contribs) 02:18, 1 March 2016 (UTC)


I will review this. It is a good one, but I believe we need to do much copyediting:

  • In the lead, please remove the citations and add the facts stated here to the main body of the article. If already mentioned and cited in the main body then please remove the citations - you don't need to add them in the lead. The lead is just a summary, a subset of the main body; so all the facts of the lead should be added and provided with citations in the main body.
Nearly done, only one citation remains which can be easily shifted to the main text. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
  • It is very weird that the most important facts are in the lead but not in the main body! The article looks inadequate due to this. You need to add all the info in the lead to the main body; keep only the most important facts in the lead. The lead should be proportional to the article in its size. This is the most important issue with the article.
  • In places you say "digambara" and then "Digambar". You should say "Digambara" everywhere.
Has this been done? Sainsf <^>Talk all words 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
I did not notice any inconsistency in the present revision. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 03:57, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
  • The word digambara is a combination of two words: Derived from which language?
I fixed it a bit more. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
  • The word digambara is a combination of two words: dig (directions) and ambara (clothes). Those whose garments are the element that fills the four quarters of space are called digambara This could be better phrased and combined as "The word digambara is a combination of two words: dig (directions) and ambara (clothes), referring to those whose garments are of the element that fills the four quarters of space."
  • Monks in the Digambara tradition don't I have never seen "don't" in articles, better say "do not".
  • a water gourd and "gourd, and"
  • Explain or link Anga
  • taking permission of of-->from
  • Link Acharya
  • Try to keep all non-English words in italics.
Is this being done? Sainsf <^>Talk all words 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Done a deeper check, looks good. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 03:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
  • 28 vows should in fact be written as 28 vratas (vows). You are explaining vratas through vows, not vows through vratas.
  • Every Digambara monk is required to follow 28 vows (vratas) compulsory. Sounds awkward, reword like "It is mandatory for every Digambara monk to follow 28 vows (vratas)"
  • Which source covers which fact? Does ref. 13 cover all the table? Are the separate references complementary?
I have added the required references. -Nimit (talk) 14:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
Better. Thank you जैन. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 14:29, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
The references have been moved to the head column. These references support the content present in the rows.-Nimit (talk) 07:06, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
  • You can see my comments at Talk:Jain monasticism/GA1 and take care of the table.
  • What is no. 24 called?
  • a cryptographic work by the digambara monk, Kumudendu Muni is not yet --> a cryptographic work by the digambara monk Kumudendu Muni, is not yet
  • In the 10th century AD or BC?
  • No intro in Lineage? There should be at least an idea about the table.
  • Source for table in Lineage?
  • Siribhoovalaya, a cryptographic work by the digambara monk, Kumudendu Muni has not yet deciphered completely.
  • In the 10th century, Digambar tradition was divided into two main orders. Source?
  • give insight about the antiquity of the Digambara tradition. Source?
  • Can you merge the sections under Historicity? And if possible expand it?
  • The single quotes should be converted to double quotes in "Scriptures"
  • Write something about the sects in "Sub-sects".

Sainsf <^>Talk all words 02:18, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Good work, but looks like there was some carelessness, I have made some fixes. Please update in the GA review page, it will help me check what has been done and what has not. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 16:58, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Thanks for your efforts. The main trouble now is with verifiablity; some parts do not have sources. I will do the necessary copyediting. Sainsf <^>Talk all words 03:56, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Please pay some attention here or at least let me know if you are busy. The issues remaining need your attention now. Sainsf <^>Feel at home 03:44, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

I have tried and resolved almost every issue raised here. The citation one though is not that easy one. I am trying to find sources. Any suggestions for the same? Also can you please point out the unsourced parts as I find the article cited almost everywhere. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 03:52, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: Thanks for the update. Here are the (appearing to be) unsourced parts: Sainsf <^>Feel at home 04:49, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

  • Spiritual lineage of heads of monastic orders is known as Pattavali. (Lineage)
  • Siribhoovalaya, a cryptographic work by Kumudendu Muni (a Digambara monk), has not yet been deciphered completely.
  • The two tables. How are the sources arranged? Do they support each and every point of the tables? I need to be sure of this.
Cleanup and sourcing done. @Sainsf Please have a relook. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Capankajsmilyo, I believe this article is ready for promotion now. Great job! Sainsf <^>Feel at home 08:24, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Yipeeee! Thanks! -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 08:28, 11 April 2016 (UTC)


GA removed

The article contains copyright violations. See WP:AN#Repeated Copyright Violations that spans 100s of pages. Accordingly, I have removed the very recent GA status again.

@Fram The violation you pointed have been resolved. Please restore GA. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 14:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
I gave an example, not an exhaustive list of all violations you added. A sentence like "The "first" (prathma) exposition contains Digambara versions of the universal history; the "calculation" (karana) exposition contains works on cosmology; the "behaviour" (charana) exposition includes texts about proper behaviour for monks and lay people." is also a copyvio from [1]. You need to find the edits you made, check them, and correct them. Not just the examples people provide, but all of them. GA will not be restored without a full check of the article. Fram (talk) 14:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
I've tried to resolve the ones I found. @Fram can you please have a relook. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 04:19, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
@Capankajsmilyo: Instead of asking @Fram to check again and again, you need to go through line by line, reference by reference in this article, and either remove any WP:Copyvio or reword the troublesome text. You also need to clean up all instances of WP:Copyvio in all linked or related articles you have worked on, as well as all wiki articles you have edited, where you appear to have "copy-pasted" text from news articles or books, such as here (one of the links I see in ANI complaint against you). @जैन: Since you have been collaboratively helping @Capankajsmilyo to improve Jainism wiki articles, could you please help in checking and flagging/ removing/ 'rewriting in your own words' all Copyvio issues. It does not matter who did it. Clearly Jainism has long taught Asteya (non-stealing) as one of the ethical vows, and Copyvio is a form of theft; let us live up to the noble, beautiful values taught in Jainism and other Indian religions, in this and other wiki articles. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
@ Capankajsmilyo, @जैन: And while you are removing Copyvio, check also if the source is really supporting the text you claim it does. For instance, on page 299 of Sangave 1980, I do not see support for "The Bhattarakas of Shravanabelagola and Mudbidri belong to Deshiya Gana and the Bhattaraka of Humbaj belongs to the Balatkara Gana". Is Humbaj etc on a different page? If you thoroughly check for Copyvio, you will catch and fix these related issues. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:30, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
@Ms Sarah Welch It's little confusing. I have to write what's written in ref and still not use the words. Either I can write what's in there or use my own words. How can I do both? For eg., the terapanthi worship with ashtadrava (eight things). Now if I write that, you might say that its not in the ref whereas if I write the names of those things only then you would say that I am a copyright violator. Please help, what to do with some elaboration / explaination on the extent / limits of using the words within / beyond ref. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 14:17, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

@Capankajsmilyo: The answer is simple. Rewrite what the source states, in your own words. For example:

If the source states (I will use what @Fram flagged above): "The first (prathma) exposition contains Digambara versions of the universal history; the calculation (karana) exposition contains works on cosmology".
Wrong thing to do: Copy and pasting it. That is WP:Copyvio.
Correct thing to do: You can reword and restate the same thing in a zillion ways. First example: "The Digambara descriptions of the universal history are found in the first (prathma) exposition, while the cosmology are discussed in the calculation (karana) exposition". Second example (better IMHO): "The Digambara texts present universal history and cosmology, the former is in the first (prathma) exposition, the latter in the calculation (karana) exposition". And so on.

If you can't rewrite in your own words, stop editing wikipedia. Don't copy-paste or plagiarize text from any copyrighted source. Such behavior does not help improve this article, or other wikipedia articles, it damages it and also shows Jainism/etc in bad light. @Fram:, @Diannaa: please correct me if I am wrong. Is there a way to put @Capankajsmilyo on watch, and are there resources within wikipedia such as WP:TEAHOUSE or something that can help @Capankajsmilyo. He seems like a diligent contributor, willing to learn. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:22, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

You are correct, Sarah Welch. All content we add to this wiki (other than brief quotations, where absolutely necessary) should be written in our own words. Capankajsmilyo, please read WP:copyrights and WP:plagiarism and let us know when you have done so. Please don't edit any more until you do this. Any further copyright violations will result in you being blocked from editing. — Diannaa (talk) 15:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Merge

I propose to merge Mula Sangha and Kashtha Sangha into this article, since both do not exist now. Merging them would help enhance all the three topics since there is not enough sourced content on the two. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 06:53, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

No. Please don't merge. 1. Mula Sangha and Kashtha Sangha are not sects, but orders. 2. Mula Sangha still exists. All Jain munis/kshullakas belong to Mula Sangh (except those belonging to Ganini Gyanmatiji's order, since the Agrawals were historically associated with Kashtha Sangh). The temples belonging to Kashtha Sangha still exist. Malaiya (talk) 01:47, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Digambara Terapanth

I further propose to merge Digambara Terapanth into this article and leave a redirect, as there is not enough content to qualify a separate article. Capankajsmilyo (talk) 10:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Digambara Terapanth is no longer practiced sect. All the followers have migrated to Bisapanthi or "Pure Terapanthi" ( also named as "Kanji Panthi"). So, reference should be altogether removed and replaced with "Pure Terapanthi" sect, as this section supposedly should only mention "live sects". Realphi (talk) 16:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I’m amazed with your flawed understanding of the Jain community. Today, you’re saying Kanji Panth is pure terapanth, tomorrow you’ll say it is pure Jainism. Kanji panth is practiced by few people. It can nowhere be compared with Digambar Terapanth which still has a very large following. On thousands of Jain temples across India you’ll find the name Digambar Terapanth written on the board. I have seen hundreds of temples belonging to Digambar Terapanth sect but only one belonging to Kanji Panth sect till now. -Nimit (talk) 03:50, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Please do not merge. It is definitely not true: "Digambara Terapanth is no longer practiced sect". Digambara Terapanth is now the mainstream Digambar tradition. Most Digambaras are not strict followers of a panth, however Terapanth rules are now specifically prescribed at many temples.Malaiya (talk) 16:23, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Digambara/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Redtigerxyz (talk · contribs) 17:52, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

Lead as a summary needed.

2. Verifiable with no original research:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
2c. it contains no original research.
  • "Relics found from Harrapan excavations like seals depicting Kayotsarga posture, idols in Padmasana and a nude bust of red limestonegive insight about the antiquity of the Digambara tradition" is pure OR. There is no mention of Digambara on the page.
  • "he presence of gymnosophists (naked philosophers) ..." no mention of have preserved the ancient Śramaṇa practice
  • "after attaining Kevala Jnana (omniscience), arihant (omniscient beings) are free from human needs like hunger, thirst, and sleep..." Reference talks about Mahavira in specific, not arihant.
  • Citation not found tags already by other users
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
  • "dig (directions) and ambara (sky), referring to those whose garments are of the element that fills the four quarters of space" is too close to Zimmer's "those whose garment (ambara) is the element that fills the four quarters of space (dig)".


3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.

Important topics missed:

  • History including The Great schism at the time of Chandragupta Maurya, Council of Valabhi
  • Differences with Śvētāmbara sect: more details on Mallinatha (gender), views on Nuns, martial status of Mahavira, iconography (Digambara - naked, downward glance, no ornaments v/s Shvetambara)
  • More detail on Mula sangha and other sects.
  • Distribution in regions/Numbers


3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. See OR part.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
7. Overall assessment.

Merge

I propose to merge Yapaniya into this article since there is not enough material for a separate article. Capankajsmilyo(Talk | Infobox assistance) 07:36, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Please do not merge Yapaniya here. The Yapaniya were a distinct order that were distinct from modern Digambaras and Shwetambaras. The Yapaniya order was of considerable historical importance.Malaiya (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Branches?

The article states: "The Digambara tradition can be divided into two main orders viz. Mula Sangha (original community) and modern community."

That is not correct. The Digambara monastic tradition wad divided into two main orders: Mula Sangha and Kashtha Sangh. Kashtha Sangh (followed by Agrawals, Narsimhapura and a few other communities) became extinct in the 20th century, although some Kashtha Sangh temples exist. All modern Digambara monks and nuns belong to Mula Sangha traditions.

Also note that the branches of Mula Sangha were orders and not sects. Thre were/are no sectarian differences among Balatkara gana, Sena gana etc. Malaiya (talk) 21:41, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Kanji Panth into this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
To not merge on the grounds of independent notability or mismatch of scope. Klbrain (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Very little independently sourced unique content. Sourcing in general quite weak. Could probably be merged into a paragraph or so here once all the unnecessary, unsourced content is trimmed. Doesn't seem enough for standalone article. Begoon 14:23, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Support per above Capankajsmilyo (talk) 15:50, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
  • I think it should be merged into Jain schools and branches. Kanji Swami, the founder of Kanji Panth was a Sthānakavāsī ascetic and unlike Digambara ascetics didn’t abandon any possessions till very last. I had once stumbled upon a booklet in which the members of the Digambara sect had clearly mentioned that Kanji Panth is wrongly associated with Digambara sect and beliefs of people belonging to Kanji Panth are in direct contradiction of what is written in their scriptures.–Nimit (talk) 10:35, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Please do not merge Kanji Panth is a new and unique tradition founded by Kanji Swami. Kanji Swami was indeed once a Sthānakavāsī ascetic, but he had given up that affiliation and declared himself a Digambara shravaka. They are Digambara, and worship Digambara idols, although they are somewhat distinct from traditional Digambaras (Bispanthi or Terapanthi). Malaiya (talk) 03:43, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose Kanji Panth is a unique tradition with different principles than any other sect.

Realphi (talk) 16:53, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

  • Oppose Different subtradition. Needs complete rewrite but should not be merged.-Nizil (talk) 18:18, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Use of word "proposed"

In the first sentence under the "History" heading, it says "In 1943, Heinrich Zimmer proposed that the Greek records of 4th-century BC mention gymnosophists (naked philosophers) which may have links to the tradition of "nude ascetics" claimed by the Digambaras." The use of the word "proposed" here makes it seem like Zimmer was the first one to think up this idea, but T. W. Rhys Davids makes mention of the comparison between gymnosophists and Digambaras in his chapter from the thirteenth edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica. [2] Not sure who was the first to make the comparison, but it seems a bit misleading to say that Zimmer proposed it in 1946 when others had been doing it at least 20 years earlier. Shudsky (talk) 21:11, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Glasenapp, Helmuth (1999). Jainism: An Indian Religion of Salvation. Motilal Banarsidass Publ. p. 382. ISBN 8120813766, 9788120813762. Retrieved 27 November 2012. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: invalid character (help)
  2. ^ Rhys Davids, T. W. (1926). "Jainism". In Garvin, J. L. (ed.). Encyclopædia Britannica. Vol. 13 (9th ed.). Henry G. Allen and Company. pp. 543–544. Archived from the original on 2021-03-30. Retrieved 2021-03-30.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Digambara/Archive_1&oldid=1144177650"