Talk:Allegory

Apologia for a short list

The entry has a short list of allegories appended to it. I have pared some, and my action needs explaining. All works of fiction with wider resonance can be seen as bearing upon allegory: the entry states this. Where invented characters are fully-rounded and take on aspects of personality not connected to the emblem that is their assigned allegorical role, then the fiction is less and less of an allegory— and a less useful example in this list. I am adding two pure allegories that were influential in Late Antiquity and in the Renaissance [groans in the audience]. But don't y'all see, if fictions with some allegorical content are added to the list, it will become trivialized and will not help explain to the reader what an allegory is like. That is the sole use of this list— or any list added to a Wikipedia entry in fact. The entries for many books are enriched by a linked reference to Allegory. The converse is not necessarily true: only books should be listed here that enrich the reader's understanding of allegory. Does this seem too disciplined? Do we need a List of fictions with some allegorical content? If so, there's your redlink. --Wetman 16:05, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree about the need of the ability to understand.

I agree with Wetman. I see nothing especially allegorical about Dune or The Chronicles of Narnia. (Lewis denied that the Narnia books were an allegory, by the way.)

It would be great to define a distinction between "allegory" and "roman à clef" in this article or there. —JerryFriedman 04:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

...but the disguised identities in the roman à clef aren't even symbolic or metaphorical, let alone allegorical. Where there's no connection, how would we make a distinction?--Wetman 11:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The connection, of course, is that both have a code. What is Animal Farm, mentioned in this article—allegory, roman à clef, or both? I just opined this in rec.arts.sf.written: 'Thus if _Animal Farm_ just had animals in place of people in Russian history, it would be a roman à clef. But we can rot13 "the pigs sold Boxer to the knackers" and get "the Soviet leaders betrayed and exploited the workers"--that's what Orwell was telling us (as if we didn't know). That makes it an allegory.' Any thoughts?

To take another example, Dune is mentioned in this article, and the article on it used to have a section on "Dune as an allegory", which cited resemblances to T. E. Lawrence's war and the Mahdist rebellion in Sudan (or specifically the film Khartoum). I changed the section title to "Historical parallels to Dune", but apparently some people see "allegory" as including any multi-point resemblance between a story and something else. For all I know, some of those people might be famous critics such as Northrop Frye, which means we shouldn't dismiss such a definition. So maybe different senses of "allegory" need to be addressed more clearly than they are now. —JerryFriedman 16:06, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the problem lies with undifferentiated lists themselves. If each item in the list of allegories had a paragraph explaining its allegorical and its non-allegorical aspect, the list would be more useful-- but open to those original research taggers. --Wetman 17:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The list is bloated again with things like Wizard of Oz. Anyone else want to be Bad Cop? --Wetman (talk) 22:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Titian's painting

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'Prudence is not exemplified by the three animals, which are emblematical of the virtues of the three ages (the kingly lion of adulthood). Prudence is when a man (the face facing the spectator) makes decisions in the light of past experience (the old man) to prepare for the future (the young face). --80.8.200.250 19:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

A mistaken example

I removed the following: " In film, one notable example is the 1960s British television series The Prisoner, starring Patrick MacGoohan. The village in which he is kept in has been said to be an allegory of state control and has many interpretations, from Marxism and beyond." The very fact that a variety of interpretations are possible should give a more wary reader a cue that this is not an example of allegory. There are many evocative works of art with resonant symbolic content. --Wetman 00:19, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

A note on the Tolkien reference

Tolkien actually began to write the middle earth legendarium while being treated for trench fever. He was ill for several months and then spent several more months convalescing in England. It was during this time that he began to write his first middle earth work, the fall of gondalin. The only reason that I mention this is that the proof offered to refute the allegory claim for the lord of the rings is faulty, regardless of the validity of the claim. Just a note. 70.231.144.171 04:23, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the main argument against LoTR being allegory is that Tolkien specifically said that it wasn't (and I assume he knows). I don't know about the timing of all his Middle-Earth stuff -- he'd been writing it for a good while before LoTR, as I understand things -- you are probably right on that. However, the article only specifically talks about Lord of the Rings. --_{tiny plastic} Grey Knight ⊖ 17:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I find the entire section on Tokein very strange, and the quote I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations a very strange way to open up an article on the subject of allegory. Not that it is bad information but it's presence so high up on the page is strikingly odd to me. 71.57.171.139 (talk) 19:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

In the case of Tolkein's opinion, we do well to quote the author rather than analyse his state of mind regarding the World Wars. However much light psychoanalysis may shed on a work of art, the author's interpretation bears the weight of being closer to the source, even if by that same token more subjective. On that note, I believe that the study of allegory would be best understood if more than one opinion was provided. Thanks to recent blockbusters Tolkein is a household name, but I am sure other artists have given their thoughts about the nature and use of allegory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.17.22.41 (talk) 16:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe that section also contains weasel words. Particularly, the, "For instance, many people have suggested that..." part. It needs to at least be rewritten. Though I would opt for its removal entirely. As has been pointed out, Tolkien himself denied that he wrote it as allegory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trollocks (talk • contribs) 09:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The Lottery???

How is The Lottery an allegory? Answer: it isn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.42 (talk) 22:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Rebuttal: Yes, it is. Why take the time to post if you're going to put so little effort into it?--216.110.81.170 (talk) 00:08, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Gojira

Producer Tomoyuki Tanaka stated that the original "Gojira" was an allegory for the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the Bikini test in which a Japanese fishing boat was accidentally caught in the fallout. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.142.202 (talk) 21:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Plagiarism

Intro on website: The introduction seems to be stolen word for word from this website: http://www.siue.edu/~ejoy/allegory_notes.htm n allegory (from Greek αλλος, allos, "other", and αγορευειν, agoreuein, "to speak in public") is a figurative representation conveying a meaning other than and in addition to the literal. It is generally treated as a figure of rhetoric, but an allegory does not have to be expressed in language: it may be addressed to the eye, and is often found in painting, sculpture or some form of mimetic art.

Intro on article: An allegory (from Greek: αλλος, allos, "other", and αγορευειν, agoreuein, "to speak in public") is a figurative mode of representation conveying a meaning other than the literal.

Allegory is generally treated as a figure of rhetoric, but an allegory does not have to be expressed in language: it may be addressed to the eye, and is often found in realistic painting, sculpture or some other form of mimetic, or representative art. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haridic (talk • contribs) 04:01, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Protected

DO NOT UNPROTECT THIS PAGE. Another user (possibly a vandal) had written the words {only boobs follow}. This qualifies for the lower quality of wikipedia articles.

Thank you, Adasarathy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adasarathy (talk • contribs) 13:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Lacking an opening statement

This article still lacks an opening definition that says "An allegory is..." A sentence or a brief paragraph is needed. --Wetman (talk) 21:51, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the lack of a definition is glaring here. 198.109.51.222 (talk) 14:13, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Borges

Borges hated allegories. --201.254.248.5 (talk) 14:09, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Repetition

first 4 paragraphs are repeated after examples!IIIIIIIII (talk) 02:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Wizard of OZ

Some have in fact interpreted the Wizard of Oz, or at least some aspects of it, as an allegory for the monetary debates of the early 20th century. Specifically the yellow brick road(gold) and the silver slippers. With some claiming the Cowardly Lion represented William Jennings Bryan. I don't know widely held this interpretation really is though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.192.208.172 (talk) 22:38, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Dubious

This all-encompassing statement is unsourced and the examples show no evidence (excepting Gojira) of allegory outside of Western literature. If allegory is a common tool in Eastern (or other) literature also then it would be pertinent to find some examples of this to add to the list; failing this, the statement need be rephrased to something along the lines of "Allegory has been a favorite form in the literature of nearly every Western nation." D4g0thur 17:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

The above said, the sentence itself is rather cumbersome as is and should probably be completely restructured regardless. D4g0thur 17:51, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph

Can we fix or remove these two sentences in the introductory paragraph:

Fictions with several possible interpretations are not allegories in the true sense. Not every fiction with general application is an allegory.

This is meaningless academese, not the worst of academese, but still academese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HeWasCalledYClept (talk • contribs) 19:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted these sentences since no one spoke up.HeWasCalledYClept (talk) 01:19, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

This battered article is repeatedly disserved in two ways: by well-meaning but clueless additions and equally by brisk and self-confident deletions. The simple fact is, fictions with several possible interpretations are not allegories in the true sense. And it needs to be stressed, as the history of this article shows, that not every fiction with general application is an allegory. These general indications are sorely needed. This is not academese; this is simply grown-up talk. Please let's have some thought for the beleaguered Wikipedia reader and some modesty about our own levels of competence.--Wetman (talk) 08:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

For example, the text:

Not every work of fictions is an allegory. Arthur Miller's The Crucible is character-driven historical drama with contemporary relevance, but not an allegory. L. Frank Baum's The Wizard of Oz is plot-driven fantasy narrative in an extended fable with talking animals and broadly-sketched characters.

was replaced by the clueless and unsourceable

Arthur Miller's The Crucible is studied in high schools and universities, because of its status as a revolutionary work of theater and for its allegorical relationship to testimony given before the House Committee On Un-American Activities during the 1950s. L. Frank Baum's The Wizard of Oz has been interpreted by many scholars as an allegory or metaphor for the political, economic and social events of America of the 1890s.

The misunderstood connection between allegory and relevance seems to be the stumbling block. Not every work of fiction is an allegory.--Wetman (talk) 08:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The user waited 2 weeks before editing after adding to the talk page; that hardly seems "brisk" even by the standards of the eternal wikipedia. What would be an appropriate threshold for these edits? Is a lack of response required to be interpreted as no need for the edit? The seems to go against the doctrine of 'Be bold'. --216.110.81.170 (talk) 00:15, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

On The Crucible

In the section Examples by Genre, it says The Crucible is not allegorical. However, in the article for The Crucible, it says "Miller wrote the play as an allegory to McCarthyism, when the US government blacklisted accused communists." Considering one is sourced, and the other is not, I propose that the reference to The Crucible be removed from the said section. Signature (talk) 03:02, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

The Chronicles of Narnia

C.S. Lewis wrote in a 1958 letter to a Mrs. Hook: "If Aslan represented the immaterial Deity in the same way in which Giant Despair [a character in The Pilgrim's Progress] represents despair, he would be an allegorical figure. In reality however he is an invention giving an imaginary answer to the question, 'What might Christ become like, if there really were a world like Narnia and He chose to be incarnate and die and rise again in that world as He actually has done in ours?' This is not allegory at all." 174.102.42.226 (talk) 09:23, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

While it's difficult to refute a direct quote of the author's intent, I read this as the author struggling with the reality that he doesn't like it when others categorize his work. In other words, this is a Distinction_without_a_difference.216.110.81.170 (talk) 00:20, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

A missing section

What about Reformation/Baroque allegory? That was quintessential to 17th/18th century political thinking, as many of your artworks show. It should include the entire Commedia del'Arte, Hogarth and the 18th Century satirists, Molière and Racine, and the Court Masque. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.40.90.202 (talk) 00:03, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Lady Justice

Lady justice has a reference to a feminist article studying the prevalence of female allegories. I changed a bit the wording of the sentence, because I thought it was unclear (the original sentece referred to "male gendered realities"). However, I have a nagging doubt about this reference, but my German is not good enough to read the original article, and the English summary is not helpful. It seems to me that most of the examples are female because they are personifications of abstract names which were grammatically female in Latin; does the article addresses this point, maybe with examples from non-European cultures? In case, I think it would be more interesting to link this reference from an allegory which can not be traced to grammatical reasons, though the Tarot card "The world" is the only example I can think of at the moment; does the article give other examples? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ossido (talk • contribs) 14:11, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

List of works

We should remove the long, random, non-comprehensive, unreferenced list of supposedly allegorical works. It is achieving nothing. Span (talk) 19:49, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Changes proposed

I agree that we should get rid of the list of allegorical works. Whoever wrote this seems to not have done research to support it. I also think we should get rid of the "etymology" section and the "types of allegory" section. The etymology is usually in the very beginning, and there isn't much information in the current category to justify its existence. Anyway, it looks like the author used a lexicon dictionary to translate, which isn't very thorough or reliable. The "types of allegory" section doesn't make a whole lot of sense, given the focus on what Frye has to say. I think that "types" can be easily discussed throughout, as there are really only a few types, and the larger differences can be found in different time periods of allegory. KAH 17:55, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Religious allegory?

Why is there no discussion of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress or Shaw's The Black Girl in Search of God? Both are based on the same basic conceit, an allegorical equation of a person's inner, spiritual life and an outward, physical biography. Even if this is strange kind of allegory, or if it could be argued to be no true allegory at all it is probably at least worth a mention in an article like this? --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:51, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

The Interabang ⁉️

The name or title of “Interabang” an allegorical tale, applied to a glass wall mural. The artworks commissioned by Tyrone Power, the stage and screen star actor of Hollywood.

Look magazine 4 pages December 2, 1954 “The Powers Pose for their Portraits” featured Linda Christian discriptions attributes of the artworks. Kirkosify (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2017 (UTC)