Talk:1917 Jaffa deportation/Archive 1

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Archive 1

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"Over 40,000 Jews had been forcibly deported, many would not return until after the British conquest and some died on their way, but many Arabs did." The 'but many Arabs did.' does not make gramatical sense. I think it means "but many Arabs did [return]" but even then it doesn't fit in the sentence structure. Factchecker170 (talk) 15:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Source material

(...excessive quotation in violation of copyright law removed...)

The legacy of Islamic antisemitism, by Andy Bostom and The New York times current history: the European war, Volume 12. Chesdovi (talk) 11:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
There can be no doubt in fact that Jemal planned and began to carry out a massacre of all Jews.
Crescent and Iron Cross By E. F. Benson. Chesdovi (talk) 11:43, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
Neither of these sources has a case for reliability. Recent research by Israeli historians in the Ottoman archives proves that these conclusions are totally wrong. Zerotalk 23:56, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

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Content and source removed

I added a portion about the origins of the massacre claim and it was deleted. My source was Scott Andersons book Laurence in Arabia.

It was deleted in favor over a lot more biased source material (hareetz). I find the article to be overly biased and lacking in major context to what was happening around the deportation and massacre claims. The cable that was sent out caused a great deal of trouble for the ottomans on how they were veiwed world wide. EternalAnglo (talk) 02:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

The revert of your work was indeed rather "fast". I add that the source that is used to replace your work doesn't refer to the same telegram and is not fully exploited, keeping an obvious bias in this article.
On the other side, if Anderson's book is widely praised he is not a scholar. I have checked his report of the events and if he reports numerous details and even quotes, he does not give any source... That's an issue for the reliability of his report of the events.
@user:Zero0000: you have already edited this page. What is your mind ? I don't know anything about these events.
Pluto2012 (talk) 05:34, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

The book of Bartrop says "Altogether, perhaps up to 1,500 Jews died as a result of Turkish measures." As far as I can see, neither of the two Hebrew sources contains this number. Most importantly, Bartrop is making an estimate of the Jewish deaths from all Turkish measures, not just the evacuation of Tel-Aviv/Jaffa. This is clear if you read not just that section but the preceding pages. To be sure, I checked the article of Segev that Bartrop cites at that place and the number 1,500 does not appear there. Zerotalk 12:12, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with your reading of Bartop, this is the only measure he details against Jews, and he places the number of Jewish deportees at 10,000. I will however try to find a more detailed source focused on the topic.Icewhiz (talk) 12:21, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
This piece - This Day in Jewish History 1917: Ottoman Authority Orders Jews to Evacuate Tel Aviv, Ha'aretz - clearly states 1,500 due to the deportation.Icewhiz (talk) 15:03, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
It is not reliable... The image is taken from wikipedia. There is high chances that the content comes from here too. We need historians reports (Segev or some other ones).
Pluto2012 (talk) 18:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Take it to RSN. Haaretz is a a RS. Your opinions on where they took the photo from not withstanding. Further sources for numbers in this ballpark are not lacking.Icewhiz (talk) 20:06, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm not impressed by the fact that one can do a Google search for Wikipedia's number and find a source. It's called bad editing. The piece in Haaretz is not written by someone with expertise on this subject (unlike say Segev or Shragai who have both written about it in Haaretz without mentioning the 1,500 claim). It is just a light-reading sort of series of article based on unspecified sources. The correct approach, though it is much more work, is to look for the best sources on the historical event and read them. In this case we are in luck. The Hebrew article of Gur Alroey: Exiles in their country? The Case of the Deportees of Tel Aviv and Jaffa in the Lower Galilee, 1917-1918, Cathedra, Vol. 120, 2006, pp.135-160 details the deaths of those Jews who reached the lower Galilee according to the places they died and what they died of. There were 430 (65 from weakness due to old age, 43 from dysentery, 39 from cholera, 33 from typhus, 32 from malaria, etc). More precision on this seems impossible. Alroey does not attempt to count deaths in other places, but he does say that the Galilee received the most destitute and poor of the refugees and everyone knows that other places which took a lot of refugees, like Petach Tikva, suffered from diseases much less than the towns around Kinneret. A total like 1,500 would be not impossible but surprisingly high and we need a better source for it. Zerotalk 08:31, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
A few hundred at Kfar Saba can be added; I don't have a great source yet. Zerotalk 13:13, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
I do not think it is implausible to reach a 1500 estimate (e.g. your tally above has us close to 1000 on two sites - add death during travel, farther sites, people who did not return but do not have a known grave...). Baltrop repeats this number as well (and he refers to just one anti Jewish incident). I will try and track down the initial source for this number - it is probably an estimate published by someone, possibly a late source who aggregated data from a number of sources.Icewhiz (talk) 19:49, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
This one - חולי וכולרה בטבריה במלחמת העולם הראשונה, דן בר-אל וזלמן גרינברג, קתדרה 120, עמודים 161-182 - in the same Cathedra issue, but different authors, estimates that for Tiberas - 321 of 1161 Jewish immigrants died in 1917-8 (mainly deportees) - or 28%. I'm not sure where the 1,500 total originated, but it is here - [1] from 2008 - which probably shows this isn't wiki-spam.Icewhiz (talk) 08:09, 21 January 2018 (UTC) This is however included in Alroey - however they disagree on the numbers somewhat (321 vs. 275 for Tiberas).Icewhiz (talk) 08:12, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
continuing to track down the original source for 1,500 - it appears here - [2] (this is written by Ilan Shchori based on his book (חלום שהפך לכרך - [3] - though possibly on an updated version). and it seems there is a plaque/headstone with this number erected in the Trumpeldor cemetery in Tel-Aviv (pictured in article). Ilan Shchori seems to have written quite a bit on Tel-Aviv.Icewhiz (talk) 08:57, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
The 275 and 321 have the same archival reference so the difference must be presentation or interpretation. I suggest it is because the 321 includes nearby villages Yavne'el, Kinneret and Sejera; Alroey's values for those together with Tiberias add to 322. A number on a headstone doesn't count for much. Zerotalk 09:25, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
The headstone - no. Shchori - maybe. It's not wiki-spam and Ha'aretz and Bartop repeat it. I'm trying to figure out the source for the estimate. Or see if someone treated mortality as an aggregate for all deportees and not piecemeal per location (a Dr. Amnon Til ([4]) seems to have taken this up as a private research project ([5]) - I might ask him directly if this was published anywhere).Icewhiz (talk) 09:36, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Bartrop refers to the number of 1500 as the total number Jews who died [during the whole war as a result of Turkish actions], but not just due to these events. But it does not matter, he gives his sources (Segev 2009). So we can refer to Segev given he reports the events based on Segev's report. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:03, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

About "This Day in Jewish History" and Wikipedia. Here is our article at the time: "In total some 1,500 are believed to have died, many victims buried without a name" and here is the newspaper article: "A total of 1,500 are thought to have died, with many of them being buried in unmarked graves." Pluto's suspicion is looking pretty good and this source is unsafe. Zerotalk 13:13, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Ottoman ethnic expulsions

I just want to mention, in the light of the skepticism of some editors above, that the Ottomans had a deep tradition of forcibly moving ethnic populations. But, starting only with 1914, and without even referencing the familiar genocides and ethnic expulsions of Armenians and Chaledan Chrisitans, they were particularly focused on the coast. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks were driven from the Aegean coast of Anatolia starting in 1914 (theses are unarmed civilians, no active national movement, an indigenous Greek-speaking population that had lived on that coast for millennia - Herodotus was born there. The Ottoman/Turkish use of mass removal of populations for political purposes is well documented. We need to nail down the details of this removal, but the skeptical tone above indicates ignorance or denialism.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:40, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

That's true but that does not help here. Pluto2012 (talk) 18:10, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
The problem is since the rise of current Turkish government, it has largely denied these atrocities. If we can have better access then it is helpful, especially the Ottoman-era sources. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 16:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Title

Some comments :

  • It does not seem it was a sudden "deportation" but rather an organised expulsion given the authorities didn't manage the "move" to Galilea. More, we are talking abut 100 km (...) and it is not stated how long it takes. It should shold be mixed with something such the Armenian deportation -> maybe expulsion ? Evacuation sounds a little bit tricky given the emotion around the events but Palestinian unhabitants were Ottoman citizens... Any other option ? Are there reliable sources talking about these events ?
  • At the time, Tel-Aviv was depending on Jaffa. The administrative seperation was organised in 1921 after the riots. The title should not mislead the readers about this.
  • It is important to check if Arab unhabitants of Jaffa were evacuated or not, given that changes the story totally. (If they were not, given Arabs were in rebellion, that would be worth underlying) -> answer seems to be everybody. If so, this article should be rewritten and it is highly probable that the current version is just propaganda.

Pluto2012 (talk) 06:52, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

While the order supposedly deported everyone, it was not enforced on the Arab or they were alliwed back after a very short time. I added sourcing to this effect in the article. Some 1500 Jews died as a result of the Ottoman action.Icewhiz (talk) 12:08, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
The article should include Gaza city, from which most of the civilian population was forcibly evacuated (40,000 people including a few Jewish families, according to a Jewish source, and 28,000 according to an Arab source). It should also be based on sources that also tell the Arab and Turkish sides of the story, not just the Jewish side. The picture that the Jews suffered and the Arabs didn't is just propaganda. A little from Segev's book "One Palestine Complete": "Smilansky found equally horrific conditions among the Arabs. In some villages, as many as a third of the residents had died of hunger and disease. ... Bertha Spafford Vester reported that Arab women had appeared in the yard of the American Colony offering to sell their babies for food." and so on. There are good academic articles on this written by Ben-Bassat, Mazza and Friedman that could be used to make a more balanced article. Since Tel-Aviv was just a suburb of Jaffa then and most of the Jews livd in the parts of Jaffa other than Tel-Aviv, I think a suitable title would be something like "Gaza and Jaffa evacuations of 1917". Zerotalk 12:32, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
Gaza is a distinct topic - as are general conditions for civilians in the area. This deportation order is treated separately by the sources.Icewhiz (talk) 13:51, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
One Palestine. Complete is a reliable source.
If the orders were given during the same short period, I would agree that "Gaza and Jaffa evacuations of 1917" sounds good.
This wp:rs source gathers both evacuation : [6].
This wp:rs source is clear on the motivation and the fact that Arabs were deported too : [7]
This article is pov-ed and needs to be neutralized.
Pluto2012 (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
The genocidal act of the Ottoman authorities towards the Jewish inhabitants of Tel Aviv (sparing the Muslims who were either not evicted by force or were allowed to return) is treated by itself and in conjunction with other Ottoman atrocities towards minorities.[1] The situation in Gaza is treated separately - the city itself was under British bombardment and civilians were in grave peril. I jave yet to see a mea culpa for spreading dubious tags around the article on facts that were exceedingly easy to source (and some were reliably sourced to begin with).Icewhiz (talk) 20:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm not going to reply to crap like "genocidal act". Instead, I'll cite two Israeli historians who, unlike Bartrop, have researched exactly this question in all the primary sources including the Ottoman archives.
The literature dealing with the plight of the populations of Gaza and Jaffa during WWI tends to regard the events in these two cities for the most part as mutually exclusive. The former is rarely addressed in research, perhaps because it is seen as a negligible side effect of the skirmishes between the British and Ottoman armies on the southern border of Palestine. When mentioned, though, it is often portrayed in the context of the anti-Arab tendencies of Cemal Pasha (1872–1922), the Ottoman military governor of the Syrian front during WWI, the Minister of Navy and the commander of the Fourth Army. By contrast, in Zionist historiography and collective memory the evacuation of the latter is depicted as a transparent political act motivated by Cemal Pasha’s anti-Zionist policy. This historiographical split stems largely from the nationalistic nature of research on the Jewish Yishuv and Palestinian society as well as from major differences in the quality and quantity of available documentation for the two events. This article suggests that understanding Cemal Pasha’s evacuation campaigns in Palestine requires a wider perspective that entwines the histories of both cities and their different demographic compositions. This view does not negate the specificity of each case but rather attempts to better contextualize these events within the larger framework of Palestine, Greater Syria, and the Empire at large during the war. Our aim is by no means to rehabilitate the image of Cemal Pasha, but rather to present the evacuation of populations in Palestine through his eyes. We argue that Cemal Pasha’s order to evacuate the populations of Gaza and Jaffa in the spring of 1917 stemmed above all from military rather than political imperatives. (Yuval Ben-Bassat and Dotan Halevy, A tale of two cities and one telegram: The Ottoman military regime and the population of Greater Syria during WWI, British Journal of Middle Eastern Studies, 2016, http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/13530194.2016.1246240)
And incidentally Jaffa had already been bombarded from the sea before the evacuation order was given. Zerotalk 09:28, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Genocide: The Basics, Paul R. Bartrop, page 36
The key difference being discrimination based on the religious background of the inhabitants. Muslims in the Jaffa area were allowed to stay or return shortly after the order. Jews were evicted and kept out (and perished in great number after becoming homeless in a warzone). Baltrop treats this as part of a pattern of genocidal persecution against minorities and lists this anti-Jewish incident with activities against other minorities (Armenians, Assyrians, etc.). Whatever initial motivations of the order in Jaffa - implementation was discrimanatory - and hence esteemed researchers such as Baltrop treat it as part of the persecution of minorities in WWI by the Ottomans.Icewhiz (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Actually the Jews did not "become homeless in a warzone"; their evacuation was orderly and they were taken care of as much as possible with Ottoman assistance at the beginning. The difference in the experience of the Arabs and Jews of Jaffa and the reasons for them is analysed by multiple historians, who come to slightly different conclusions. It is now a minority opinion among specialists (who don't include Baltrop, and your reliance on his comments in passing with only a reference to a newspaper article don't show you in a good light) that special antipathy towards the Jews was a major reason. One historian I haven't mentioned yet (Yigal Sheffy, whose specialty is WWI intelligence) says that there were only 8,000 people in Jaffa when New Zealand forces entered in November, out of 40,000. Ben-Bassat also mentions (without details) evidence that a large number of Arabs left. There is no doubt that many Arabs were not expelled because they were farmers and the Turkish army was critically short of food, and that some of those who left returned later without being expelled again. But the latter is better explained by differences in the organization of the Jews and their attitude to authority. Another specialist historian (Gur Alroey, who I cited above) wrote "The expulsion of the Jews of Tel Aviv and Jaffa should be seen against the background of other deportations that took place during the war. In this broad historical context it seems that the Yishuv suffered no more than other peoples." Zerotalk 06:13, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
Treated as a separate anti-Jewish/Zionist subject here - Syria in World War I: Politics, economy, and society, M. Talha Çiçek.Icewhiz (talk) 07:54, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
That's the article of Mazza I have mentioned several times. It is fine to consider the relationship between Cemal Pasha and Zionism, but Mazza's conclusions won't please you:
"Clearly, the relationship between Djemal Pasha and Zionism is complex, and the evacuation of Jaffa does not reveal any project of Turkification of Jaffa and Jerusalem, as suggested by Fuat Dündar. It is unmistakable that Djemal Pasha disliked Zionism and tried to stop its development in every way possible permitted by the Ottoman system of government. As argued earlier, Djemal saw Zionism as a separatist movement that threatened the integrity of the empire, in the same way as the emerging Arab nationalism. He may have distrusted the Jews, but they certainly suffered considerably less than their Arab counterparts; whether from domestic or international pressure, the Jews were partially shielded. Despite the narrative produced in the aftermath of the evacuation, even the German consul Brode––no fan of Djemal––thought the evacuation plan stemmed from military necessity. In the long term, Djemal’s fears about Zionism becoming a colonial movement were proven correct: the purpose was, indeed, to create a Jewish state at the expense of the local population. But, as the Arab world grew enraged at the British for promising Palestine to the Jews through the Balfour Declaration, Djemal’s star had faded." Zerotalk 09:04, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
I actually read the whole thing, he's clearly writing from a certain POV, however he feels the need to address this issue as an issue - attempting to provide a counter view, while addressing the sources covering this issue as an issue.Icewhiz (talk) 09:19, 21 January 2018 (UTC)
The book of Baltrop is wp:rs but he does not link the events with a genocide, at the contrary (and as could be expected). Just before the paragraphs about the events (20 lines in the whole book), he says that the Ottoman empire discriminated Christians but not other minorities, such as Jews. If he reports the events of Jaffa, it is to show the exception and to say that even if there were no atrocities/genocied against Jews, they were nevertheless discriminated. But he says so in underlying the fact they could not return as soon as Muslims/Arabs, but not by the fact they were deported (evacutated). Pluto2012 (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Nili

I seem to recall having read somewhere that these deportations where, at least partly, due to the activities of the Nili spies...but I cannot recall where. Is my memory wrong here? Huldra (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2018 (UTC)

Note Nili were active well to the north. But yes, I recall that I have seen claims that the Ottomans were fearful of possible espionage by Jews on the coast.Icewhiz (talk) 20:15, 20 January 2018 (UTC) Also the deportation order was given some six months before the Ottomans broke the Nili ring - so causation to Nili is not clearcut. But I do recall reading espionage fears raised by some writers.Icewhiz (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2018 (UTC)
Icewhiz is right that Nili was only exposed later. But fear of spies was one of the reasons that the Turks had for wanting to evacuate civilians, which they did in many places besides Jaffa. But it wasn't Jewish spies that they feared the most. That honor went to Arab nationalists, who were seen as a serious threat to the empire. As for Nili, an indirect connection is that it was the Aaronsohn organization in Egypt, in cahoots with British intelligence, that invented atrocity stories about the Jaffa evacuation (two Jews hanged, dozens of bodies found on the beach, etc) that were picked up by the world press and caused a furore. Mazza wrote an article tracing this side of the story. Zerotalk 06:32, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Next step

Yesterday I have used googlebook to get more information and I read several books about "Jaffa 1917" or "Jaffa 1917 Jews". Most of them, not to say all but a few ones, refer to the fact it was a military decision in which both Arabs and Jews were concerned (in the ration: 2/3 - 1/3 precise 1 source !). Arabs were even discriminated having 2 days to leave and the Jews 1 week more. But later there was a political decision not to leave Jews go back to there (even if there are strange exception, such as HaCohen, a reference at the time, who went back in November 1917). There are also numerous sources that refer how the Zionist organisations perform propaganda around these events (this article being a consequence). Others refer to the situation of famine and epidemy in all Palestine at the time. The numbers of Jewish victims due to this "evacuation/deportation" is not clear. A good wording should be found. Pluto2012 (talk) 17:46, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

population

To editor ZaDoraemonzu: The number of Jews in TA+J was about 8,000 not 40,000. Some say 9,000 or 10,000. 40,000 was the total population. Also, user-contributed sources like yeshiva.org.il are not permitted. (You aren't allowed to copy text and sources from there either, you have to check them yourself.) I will quote Alroey's opinion on the reason for the expulsion directly from his journal article. Zerotalk 14:48, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

To editor ZaDoraemonzu: I looked at the Hebrew wiki and it is much better than this one. Why did you copy the quote of Aharonson as if it was about Jews, even though the Hebrew wiki says it is about non-Jews? Can you assure us that this distortion was accidental? Zerotalk 11:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

To be honest, I took Hebrew sources from the Hebrew Wikipedia. I'm not a Hebrew speaker, so if you have anything better to add, just update it. I only helped expanding it due to negligence. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 11:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

1915 list of names

Regarding the image with caption "Notice by the Ottoman Empire's Ministry of Palestine in 1915 requiring Jews to arrange Ottoman citizenship before 15 May, 1915." There was no such organization. The caption in the Hebrew wiki refers to the Palestine Office, a Zionist body that later became the Jewish Agency. However, the document itself does not say who wrote it and we aren't allowed to use wikis as sources. My interpretation is that the document is a warning that people who applied for Ottoman citizenship but hadn't paid the fee yet have to do so immediately or be subject to deportation. But my interpretation is not a reliable source here either. In sum, I don't think we can use it. Zerotalk 05:07, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Need to promote the page to better public knowledge

The page since improvement did pretty much better information and awareness about the atrocities by the Ottoman Empire. However the recent disinformation campaigns by the Turkish/Azerbaijani governments' bots against countries that do not support its policies in Wikipedia are intensifying, Turkish/Azerbaijani bots are operating to falsify history in favor of Ankara/Baku's official narratives here. I think the page deserves better promotion because it may highlight and condemn the actions caused by the Ottoman Empire and subsequent denial of genocide by Turkey. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 12:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@ZaDoraemonzu: The page at the moment is a mess. I have collected quite a lot of sources, including Hebrew, and intend to make a major revision. But it takes time. The motivation you give here is not appropriate. According to Wikipedia standards, the article should report the facts as presented by the best sources. It does not exist for the purpose of fighting a political war of words. Read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Zerotalk 13:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
I know my words may be harsh, but after observing what's going on in a lot of English-page Wikipedia that related to issues about Ottoman history and Turkey today, as well as Azerbaijan, I feel it is very delusional to deny the fact, the Turkish/Azerbaijani bots are waging propaganda wars here to show their "benevolence". Wikipedia requires all honesty, right? I believe both have good and bad sides, and it is needed. But for them, they only know they are the good guys and they never acknowledge their wrongdoings. This is what I concerned about. ZaDoraemonzu (talk) 13:18, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

book of Göçek

I have no opinion on the reliability of Göçek's book as a source on the Armenians. However, as a source for this article, I don't think it is reliable. I can't see footnote 325; can anyone? Immediately following the paragraph that is quoted, Göçek says "The Jews suppressed not only these centers but also the ones in Paris and London and they were indeed deported to Hama and Humus [= Homs] without harm." All of this sentence is nonsense. To start with, the idea that "the Jews" had the power to control the press in multiple world capitals sounds like a standard canard. Moreover, the deportation itself created a large atrocity propaganda, the opposite of what Göçek wants us to think. This will be documented in the article when I finally get around to it. Finally, though some Jews from Jaffa went to Damascus none of the detailed sources that can see mention destinations further north. Most stayed in Palestine. Given that Göçek devotes less than a page to this subject and gets much of it wrong, I propose that it is unreliable. Zerotalk 09:16, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Zero0000, I think you misunderstand what Göçek's book is trying to cover. It is a study of memoirs from mostly Ottoman/Turkish writers. In this case she is citing the memoir of Falih Rıfkı Atay, who was present at the time and would have first-hand information. Most likely, Atay and/or Djemal genuinely believed that Jews could control the press. In fact, many Jews and especially Zionists gave very good press to the extent of obsequious flattery to the CUP throughout their rule. (This is discussed in Hans-Lukas Kieser book Talaat Pasha: Father of Modern Turkey, Architect of Genocide). (t · c) buidhe 22:55, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
@Buidhe: Thank you for your reply, which prompts me to remove this text from the article. So Atay believed that "the Jews" could "quiet down by tomorrow" all the press in Vienna, Berlin, Paris and London, but we don't have to take his belief seriously and we absolutely must not present it as fact in the article. I also noticed something else in the book that I didn't focus on before: Gocek dates these events to 1914–1915. So the large deportations of 1917 are not the topic, nor are they mentioned in Gocek's book I think (but I'm not sure). There were some expulsions of Jews from Jaffa in 1914 — a few hundred or a few thousand non-Ottoman Jews were expelled by sea and most went to Egypt. Ottoman citizens were exempted and (except for an initial partial expulsion) non-citizens were given a grace period for obtaining citizenship. What we have here is a bunch of claims, based on some memoir, that have almost zero overlap with detailed books and journal articles by respected historians. The only real option is to leave them out. Zerotalk 01:29, 25 January 2021 (UTC)
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