Wikipedia talk:GLAM/Directory/Harrogate Museums

Hi all, this page is for discussing scope for collaborations between Wikipedians and the team at Harrogate Museums and Arts PatHadley (talk) 11:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone, I am interested in making an article on Egyptian Predynastic pottery. I think this subject is important given how pottery shards are pervasive in most archeological digs and are often used to date an early site or determine its cultural background. In addition, such pottery is often on display in Museums, yet the information provided is generally limited to the period (e.g. Naqada IIIb) and origin of the find, information which is often obscur for visitors. There is very little to nothing available in Museums on production techniques, and rarely on the motifs when some are present. Therefore, an article on the subject is needed and would help interested amateurs and students alike. I am thinking of a first article listing the various types of predynastic pottery, regrouped by period and/or types. Each type would be illustrated by a few pictures, and would briefly describe the typical potteries, their find spots (I can setup maps of Egypt with this information) as well as additional observations, e.g. on the significance of the common motifs, production techniques etc. I have visited a number of museums with predynastic material (Louvre, British Museum, Ashmolean, National Museum of Antiquities of France etc.) presenting remarkable pieces but with very poor additional information. Ideally, this article would be the remedy. If we work well enough, the article should be useable to date, locate the possible origins and understand the significance of a piece, just from its photography. Iry-Hor (talk) 14:59, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Background info: I have made slightly over 7000 edits on Ancient Egypt topics on wikipedia, though almost exclusively on pharaohs and pyramids so far (see Shepseskare, Unas, Pyramid of Userkaf for examples of my work). Iry-Hor (talk) 14:58, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I just had an alternative idea, one could decide to gather photographies and material to work on Naqada III, an article receiving 60,000 visits per year and which is currently of poor quality. Working on this idea would greatly benefit from curator input in order to illustrate the various sections of the article but also to decide how to best present this crucial period of Ancient Egypt for the general public. Iry-Hor (talk) 09:39, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Really loving your enthusiasm Iry-Hor! I'm so excited to see where we can take this. If Harrogate Museums can't fulfil all of your needs I'll try my best to put you in touch with other specialists to get things rolling! Exciting times PatHadley (talk) 11:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well thanks I can work on any Ancient Egypt subject relating to the Predynastic, Early Dynastic, Old Kingdom, First Intermediate and Second Intermediate Period so if you find curators interested in any particular article within these periods, I would happy to work on it. One particular sub-project on which museums could also help is to have at least one image per pharaoh article (this is especially difficult for shadowy rulers). In any case, any form of professional input on wikipedia's Ancient Egypt content is very much welcomed. Iry-Hor (talk) 14:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ran the first training session with Harrogate Museum's volunteer @Jonathan Fenny: last Thursday. Things went well and Jonathan is now getting his head around editing and looking through Harrogate's collections and archives for material. Hopefully it won't be too long until things are up and running for collaboration with @Iry-Hor: PatHadley (talk) 09:47, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just to confirm I am still watching this page! Iry-Hor (talk) 16:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So.... @Jonathan Fenny: @Iry-Hor: How do we think would be the best way to proceed with this? Jonathan, are you planning to upload more images of pre-dynastic/Naqada objects? Could we use dropbox or GoogleDrive and email to work on sources close to the museum (eg, scans from books, rare archive stuff). Iry-Hor, what would be the most useful stuff for you? Or the most fun!? Cheers PatHadley (talk) 12:47, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well if the museum has books, journals any source concerning ancient Egypt it is always worthwhile scanning it and putting it up on the web so that it can be used as a source for wikipedia articles. As stated earlier, I am very open about what to do, as long as it is about Egypt before c. 1070 BC (note, for later periods, I would advise working with another wikipedia user: Khruner). Iry-Hor (talk) 13:11, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Iry-Hor I will be uploading images of pre-dynastic objects via wikimedia commons.I have been looking at the museum's database to try and familarise myself with the Egypt collections.In my search, I found a number of artefacts associated with the pre-dynastic period.I have found what I believe are unusual items such as a fish sculpture which is thought to have had a religious significance in pre-dynastic Egypt.However most of the database information regarding the pre-dynastic artefacts is basic and imprecise.This makes it difficult for someone like me to upload images to wikimedia because I wouldn't be able to describe the artefact precisely.In spite of this I have been told that the museum recently had a specialised researcher in their employment who documented our Egyptian collection and a book was published on it.I hope to use the recent documentation works to write an accurate description when I start uploading images.There are some high quality photos of several Egyptian items in our possession.I will be in the museum tommorrow and I hope to begin on with the pre-dynastic material. Jonathan Fenny (talk) 12:00, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jonathan Fenny: That's fantastic, let me know if I can help in any way. Is you wikicommons user account also "Jonathan Fenny"? Don't hesitate to upload artefacts dating to later periods as well if you find the time, as there are many editors who would be glad to see more pictures pertaining to Ancient Egypt in general. Iry-Hor (talk) 13:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ Iry-Hor Yes I am known as Jonathan Fenny on wikimedia commons.I managed to fix the broken link to the category images from Harrogate museums on Wikipedia:GLAM/Directory/Harrogate Museums.It will now work and you can see what's been uploaded before I started with the project.I have added a few myself today.Thank you for your offer for help with the artefacts,I am very grateful for any help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonathan Fenny (talk • contribs) 14:46, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jonathan Fenny: Just let me know what I can do to help you. Meanwhile I will start looking for good sources to organize an article on predynastic pottery. P.S: if you want to ping me use { { ping | Iry-Hor } } (without the space),it will show up as @Iry-Hor but will also send me notification that you have told me something somewhere. If you write "@" directly, it shows up the same but actually doesn't work. Iry-Hor (talk) 06:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Iry-Hor: I was wondering how your dynastic pottery article was progressing? Last week I uploaded a potentially useful Naquada II culture vase with boat motif decoration onto wikimedia Naquada vase..There are still a number of pre-dynastic mace heads which could be uploaded as well as dynastic items.We also have some and Coptic tapestry fabric fragments from towards the end of the 1st Millenium AD.Are Coptic Egyptian cultural items in demand on wikipedia at all?Jonathan Fenny (talk) 15:02, 22 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Jonathan Fenny: I am gathering sources at the moment but most importantly, I am looking for a single accessible (pdf or not too expensive) book source with a complete overview of predynastic pottery in order to build the "skeleton" of the article (that is to know all different types in existence and organize sections etc). If you know of any, I would be very interested. Regarding late Coptic Egypt, I think all material is welcomed on wikipedia/wikicommons and while I will not be the person able to use it, I am sure someone will pick it up at some point. Iry-Hor (talk)

@Iry-Hor: @Jonathan Fenny: This is all sounding great guys! Jonathan, I've noticed that the new images you've uploaded aren't as large as the ones I was given. Do you think that there might be better versions somewhere we could use?

Iry-Hor perhaps the Wikipedia Library could help you access high-quality sources? This Pottery Fieldwork Manual is quite technical but might be useful? Let me know if there's anything else I can do. Cheers PatHadley (talk) 11:11, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@PatHadley: Thank you very much! I have started writing up the article, I should have something to show soon. We will fill in the article with photo galleries of specimens illustrating each pottery type. Iry-Hor (talk) 11:08, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@PatHadley: :::@Iry-Hor: I was able to find and upload a few more higher quality images this week.I told Diane Saxon at the museum about the problems I was having trying to find high resolution images and she helped me find the computer folders which had good professional images of many artifacts in them.They were taken during the preparations for Harrogate's Investigate Egypt exhibition which took place in 2007. In the folders there was a photo of another pre-dynastic food container https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Egyptian_Pre-dynastic,Flattened_Spherical_Vase_Hargm_10051.JPG There was also a cylinder vase from the late pre-dynastic or early dynastic period which was found at Naqada https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ancient_Egyptian_tall_cylindrical_vase_from_Naqada_Hargm_10221.JPG

I also had a try at adding links in the description of some other items including a pot thought to be used in a temple dedicated to Min in Koptos/Qift.But unfortunately some code seems to have broken,although the links I made seem to work. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vase_of_red_pottery_with_a_pointed_base_used_in_offerings_Hargm_10321.JPG Jonathan Fenny (talk) 11:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Great work! I'll have a go at fixing the metadata soon! In haste PatHadley (talk) 18:20, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]