Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Grace Sherwood/archive2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Addressed comments from Crisco 1492[edit]

  • damaging crops, causing the death of livestock, and transforming herself into a cat. - might be the values dissonance, but I'm getting an Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking vibe here. Could we organise in terms of severity?
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Their daughter Grace was born in Virginia, probably in Pungo. - good candidate for merging with the first sentence above
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • left them the remainder of his 145 acres (59 ha) farm. - do sources use this as an indication that Grace was an only child?
    • She probably was an only child for two reasons: I don't recall seeing any siblings mentioned anywhere and it was virtually unheard of for women to own land back then. PumpkinSky talk 22:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Interesting point, but my question was to the RSes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • I have looked again and can't find anything definitive. Not even in UNreliable sources. Making such a statement would be OR and SYNTH so I think we just need to leave it as is. PumpkinSky talk 01:44, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Massachusetts Salem witch trials - Salem, Massachusetts, witch trials?
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Puritan New England had settled in towns, - does a geographic location settle?
Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Virginia required proof of guilt through either searches for witch's marks or ducking. - a link to ducking would be nice
  • In that case, a couple claimed that a woman was a witch, an accusation ruled to be slander. - any reason why they accused her (just curious, not really for the article)
    • For causing someone's death and a slave to be set free, but I can't find that in anything we'd considered a reliable source for an FA. Though this good source says "blighted". PumpkinSky talk 22:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "bewitching his hogs and cotton crop." - leading to... what? exactly?
    • Apparently death of hogs and cotton crop, but again, not in what we'd call an RS. PumpkinSky talk 5:29 am, Today (UTC+7)
  • , wife of Anthony Barnes, - is this really needed?
  • twenty pounds sterling - link?
  • both made up of women. - why?
They were going to search a woman's person and property.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • So, in the standards of the time, a woman's property was to be protected from the touch of men? Just trying to figure out the societal context here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, men didn't strip search women then. Is that allowed anywhere even today? PumpkinSky talk 22:01, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was more curious about the property, actually. Don't think many places allow strip searches of the person. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • They discovered two "marks not like theirs or like those of any other woman." - anything more concrete? Also, the question of juries here is quite a ways away from a current American jury; perhaps there is a good link target?
    • In that same ref is says "two things like titts" (yes, a quote). Should that be added? PumpkinSky talk 22:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • That might be useful. A link to Supernumerary nipple, if the source supports it? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:12, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • That second quote is already at the end of the ducking section, with ref, so I added the supernumary nipple link. Also note the Harper's ref says they were moles (which can look like "titts". PumpkinSky talk 21:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sherwood could give bond for her appearance and good behavior. - wasn't the family poor (and without her husband, perhaps even more so?)
Yes. Whether she did give security is not disclosed. And remember, she had three sons, probably grown by then (by the standards of 1706). There's a definite implication in the sources that she made farming pay over time, though I don't think I could source it. After all, she died needing a will.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:28, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah. On a related note, what was the relative value of five shillings in those days? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm of the school that you really can't equate money over such a long period, things have just changed too much.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • in those days - So, like 5 pounds of sugar, or? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:24, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • titts - spelling in the original? Also, are these "titts" as in nipples, titts as in breasts, or as in bewinged creatures?
Almost certainly the former, as the idea was the witch's familiar would suckle from her. And yes, the spelling is correct.--Wehwalt (talk) 13:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 600 pounds of tobacco - any monetary value?
That was money in Virginia at the time. Currency was scarce and tended to flow to England in payment for imports.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might be worth a footnote then, for the general reader. I was getting the impression of a barter system, true, but was thinking of a general barter system and not a system built around tobacco. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's been written up a fair amount in monetary histories that I've read. And sometimes you see exhibits in money museums and the like in the US, usually near the stone from Yap. Footnoted.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sherwood's story is also told in "Cry Witch", a courtroom drama performed at Colonial Williamsburg, the recreated 18th-century capital of Virginia. - Author, if this is similar to a scripted play?
  • No one is actually ducked in the reenactments, which embark from a spot across from Ferry Plantation House along Cheswick Lane, which is very close to Witch Duck Bay. - perhaps introduce that there are reenactments first
  • The folklore surrounding Sherwood sounds very interesting. Any more in reliable sources? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, but we should be careful of drifting off course. PumpkinSky talk 23:07, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you still want help with a source spotcheck? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. The more the merrier, seriously. I want people to be comfortable with this article.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Wehwalt, we want the reviews to be very thorough. PumpkinSky talk 21:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Her husband died in 1701; she inherited his property and never remarried. - Not cited in article body (or even located there)
    • Parts are see " When James died in 1701, Grace inherited his property.[11][12]" Added not remarry part with reference to body. PumpkinSky talk 6:12 am, Today (UTC+7)
  • What happened to the "possibly born in England" from the old FA?
It was not sufficiently sourced and I cut it.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, it's shaky and seems speculation. Born in Pungo is much more solid. PumpkinSky talk 6:12 am, Today (UTC+7)
  • Old article says Sherwood was awarded 50 pounds sterling, not 20
That's what she sued for, not what she got.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, the original source says she got twenty shillings. I'll change that.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The case going back and forth for some months has been omitted here.
    • I guess you're talking about "Neither the local court nor the Attorney General in Williamsburg would pass judgment declaring her a witch however. The case went back and forth between Williamsburg and Princess Anne County for some months. The higher court considered the charge to be too general, and on April 16 ruled that the local court had the power to examine the case more fully. Each time Grace was required to appear in court, next to Lynnhaven Parish Church (Church No. 2), she had to make a 16-mile (26 km) trek from her farm in Pungo to the court.[5][8][20][21]" which has morphed into "Neither the colonial authorities in Williamsburg nor the local court in Princess Anne were willing to declare Sherwood a witch.[11] Those in Williamsburg considered the charge overly vague, and on April 16 instructed the local court to examine the case more fully. For each court appearance, Sherwood had to travel 16 miles (26 km) from her farm in Pungo to where the court was sitting.[1][27]". This was in our effort to change the writing from the old version to avoid its pitfalls. Should we put some of the details, reworded, back in? PumpkinSky talk 23:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd leave it. I didn't find the "several months" very well sourced as all of this only took three months.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article says six justices; the old one had six members of a jury. Which is right?
This is. The county court consisted of whatever justices of the peace happened to be there (there was, apparently, a fairly good turnout for Sherwood's case). One or two sources do say "jury" but that is a misunderstanding.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Otherwise the content looks similar, although the phrasing is different now. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the basic story will naturally be the same and we've endeavored very hard to avoid the problems of the old version. PumpkinSky talk 23:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Spotcheck

    • 1
      • 1a - not supported in source. Also, what makes this reliable?
You are mistaken, "1660" appears in the caption. And why would not an organization's web page about something which is part of its history be reliable?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caption wasn't showing up when I opened the original (still isn't). Verified in the archived version. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:56, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 1b - Supports marriage, name, and year. Others not supported by this ref. No close paraphrasing.
The remainder is supported by reference 5, also used as a footnote, " In time Grace had grown up and married James Sherwood, a respected citizen, who had a small farm here in Princess Anne, six head of fat cattle, two good steers and a comfortable cottage"--Wehwalt (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 1c - Doesn't support anything in the sentence it's used for
Yes, that is completely supported by Nash. I will remove that reference eventually, but to avoid confusion will wait.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No worries about removing it, I'll still work out of the same diff.
      • 1d - March 3 not supported, others supported. No close paraphrasing
Changed to "early 1697". It gives the month but not a day (which is present in other sources)--Wehwalt (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 1e - Supports "In 1698, Sherwood was accused by her neighbor John Gisburne of bewitching his hogs and cotton crop." I note that "bewitching his hogs and cotton" is verbatim in the source.
I think that's forgivable, but in an excess of caution, changed to "enchanting" and "pigs".
      • 1f - Doesn't say anything about vague or 16 April. Mostly supported though.
It's in the Burr source, also cited as a reference there. "But the attorney

general, to whom on March 28 the matter was referred, reported on April 16 that he found the charge too general".--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

      • 1g - Supports. The overall pattern of the sentence is quite similar, but I don't think it's a problem.
      • 1h - Supports.
      • 1i - might want to reword "all over the colony"
I think it explains the situation well, unless there's a specific concern?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • More or less the same as the source, but four words won't hurt anything. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 09:56, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 1j - Supports
      • 1k - "Her remains lie unmarked under a clump of trees in a field near the intersection of Pungo Ferry Road and Princess Anne Road." almost verbatim from the source
Rewritten.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • 11
      • 11a - Supported, no close paraphrasing.
      • 11b - Gist of it is supported, though no "under an ill tongue"
That is from the Newman ref, also cited, "To avoid this possible outcome, justices dismissed unsubstantiated cases of witchcraft and prosecuted the accusers for slander, who found themselves “under an ill tongue.”". It's on page 78 as advertised.
      • 11c - Gist of it supported, still nothing about the Sherwoods paying for court costs
It's probably in the Yarsinske source, but I don't have access to that, so in an excess of caution, I've added a source from the Nash book.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 11d - Supported (also supports "vague", phrased as "general")
      • 11e - Supported (but no mention of a second ducking)
      • 11f - Supported
      • 11g - Supported. What's this about "waiting to be hanged"?
Could you be more specific?--Wehwalt (talk) 10:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If I recall correctly, it has her doing something whilst "waiting to be hanged". Admittedly this is folklore, but was she ever historically "waiting to be hanged"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:17, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I note that this source says twenty shillings + court costs
That does seem to be what the court's judgment said, and I made that switch last night.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • 13 - Strongly suggest archiving this one
Why? There are a few small instances of too-close phrasing, but isolated instances of following the same phrase are permitted. Per above, almost all of them were supported by the other sources cited, and we're making adjustments to technical glitches.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:02, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 13a - Don't see anything about attracting men. Otherwise supported
It's in Chewning at page 84, cited as a ref for that passage, "probably turned a few of the men's heads".
      • 13b - Supported. Don't see any close paraphrasing.
      • 13c - Verbatim from source; needs rephrasing
Rewritten.
      • 13d - Feeling uncomfortable with "where 19 colonists were executed for witchcraft,", which is really close to the source
The source says: "Virginia never had a witch craze like that in Massachusetts, where 19 colonists were hanged for witchcraft in Salem Town in 1692." we say "Virginia did not experience the type of mass hysteria that characterized the Salem, Massachusetts witch trials in 1692–1693, where 19 colonists were executed for witchcraft, several years before the first accusations against Sherwood." I'll fudge it, but I think this is OK.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 13e - Supported, no close paraphrasing
      • 13f - This gives 15 cases, with most ending in acquittals
That's USA Today for you. Newman, also cited as a ref on that passage, gives the 19 figure. Elementary source conflict, I went with the later and more scholarly source (it's also backed up in other sources).--Wehwalt (talk) 10:25, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 13g - Supported, don't see any close paraphrasing.
      • 13h - Very close (seems to be --> appears to be, and that's it)
Rewritten.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 13i - None of this is supported. It gives Sherwood getting ducked at 10 a.m., not going down the road. Nothing about Witchduck Road and Sherwood.
Sourced with another ref.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:25, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 13j - Supported
      • 13k - Don't see anything about justices or six
      • 13l - Supported, I think paraphrasing is okay.
      • 13m - Supported
      • 13n - Don't see 1740 here
I've nailed down the date of death.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • 13o - Too close: Compare source ( Her story also is told in "Cry Witch," a courtroom drama at Colonial Williamsburg, the recreated 18th-century capital of Virginia.) and article ( Sherwood's story is also told in "Cry Witch", a courtroom drama performed at Colonial Williamsburg, the recreated 18th-century capital of Virginia.)
Rewritten.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:41, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN 32 (now FN 33): Page? 31/32 (now 32/33) look to check out either way.
FN 50 (now FN 51) supports Ferry Plantation House. What's this about "Yesterday's re-enactment was the sixth in which Nash corralled friends and family to don wigs and period clothing"?
Every year since 2001, reenactments of the ducking are done in period clothing. PumpkinSky talk 22:05, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of the sources are saying she swam to shore under her own power. The article seems to say she stayed by the boat.
I think it's best to leave this at the point where she floats to the surface, ie, as is. PumpkinSky talk 22:32, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FN 44 (now FN 45): Supports the information, no close paraphrasing.
FN 45 (now FN 46) supports the information.
FN 46 (now FN 47): redundant to virginiabeach.com and a possible WP:ELNO violation (doubt witchduck.org has acquired the copyright)
Fixed, back to original source. PumpkinSky talk 22:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:40, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks from Mark Arsten[edit]

Here are the source references and corresponding passages from the Wiki article. I think they're all fine, but I'll posting them here in case anyone wants to check again. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:12, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • 7:
    • source: as a wedding gift the couple received 50 acres of land from Grace's father. When John White died the following year, he bequeathed the remainder of his 195-acre farm to James and Grace Sherwood.
    • text: John White gave the Sherwoods 50 acres (20 ha) of land when they married, and on his death in 1681 left them the remainder of his 145 acres (59 ha) farm
  • 11:
    • source: One of the strangest legends concerning Grace is said to have taken place at her death in 1740. ... Grace asked her sons to move her from her bed and place her feet into the warm ashes of the fireplace. During the night a tremendous gust of wind came down the chimney, scattering embers everywhere. When Graces's sons looked in on her, they discovered she had disappeared. All that remained of their mother was a cloven footprint in the ashes.
    • text: According to legend, Sherwood's sons put her body near the fireplace and a wind came down the chimney. Her body disappeared amid the embers, with the only clue being a cloven hoofprint
  • 20:
    • source: New England leaders favored relatively compact settlements in towns ... The daily interaction of New Englanders undoubtedly strengthened community ties but also unintentionally left room for animosity and bitterness among neighbors to develop, an unfortunate condition for witchcraft allegations in the early modern period. For example, in New England before the Salem trials, witchcraft was essentially a community-driven crime in which legal actions were directed against particular individuals. ... While Virginia’s sprawling settlement pattern would hinder the growth of the colony’s established church for the remainder of the colonial period, it appears in part to have protected the colony from the extensive witch prosecutions that occurred elsewhere in the New World as well as the Old World during the same period. Most Virginians lived miles apart from one another; this likely made impossible daily interaction, a necessary ingredient for witchcraft allegations based on maleficium.
    • text: New England's Puritans had settled in towns, and community pressure helped contribute to witchcraft convictions. There were few such towns in Virginia, where the population mostly lived on farms and plantations, scattered over a large area
  • 31:
    • source: The experience of John Craig, a Scottish Presbyterian minister ... After settling in Augusta County, Virginia ... Four months later the infant died. Finally, Craig's cattle and horses died too ... Later, however, Craig apparently named the persons he believed responsible for poisoning his animals. Now his enemies accused Craig of resorting to occult practices. They said he "used Charms and named Neighbors as the instruments of my loss," meaning that he had used occult techniques to secure the names of his transgressors. Yet neither Craig nor his antagonists pursued their accusations in the courts, even though to do so was still legally possible in Virginia. Instead, they allowed their belief in witchcraft to shape local affairs but kept them away from unsympathetic magistrates
    • text: In 1745, John Craig, a Presbyterian minister in Augusta County, Virginia, made assertions of witchcraft after his child and several of his animals died, and was in response accused of using evil arts to divine who was responsible. Neither he nor those who accused him brought their claims to court to face "unsympathetic magistrates", though prosecution for witchcraft was still possible in Virginia.
  • 32:
    • source: Monday, July 10, 2006; 6:52 PM ... Gov. Timothy M. Kaine on Monday gave an informal pardon to Grace Sherwood, who 300 years ago became Virginia's only person convicted as a witch tried by water. "I am pleased to officially restore the good name of Grace Sherwood," Kaine wrote ... On July 10, 1706, Sherwood was dropped into the Lynnhaven River
    • text: Governor Tim Kaine officially restored Sherwood's good name on July 10, 2006, the 300th anniversary of her conviction.
    • source: perhaps as long as seven years and nine months
    • text: Sherwood may have been jailed until 1714
  • 42:
    • source: On July 5, 1706, a county jury of justices of the peace, despairing of the feminine jury and wishing to settle the long-drawn-out affair, ordered Grace Sherwood "by her own Consent to be tried in the water by Ducking."
    • text: On July 5, 1706, the justices ordered a trial by ducking to take place, with Sherwood's consent
  • 53:
    • source: The bronze figure carries a bundle of garlic and rosemary, which Sherwood grew for medicine. A raccoon at her feet signifies her love of animals.
    • text: The raccoon represents Sherwood's love of animals and the rosemary her knowledge of herbal healing.
  • 54:
    • source: But according to local stories, that legend isn't quite over. Some say Sherwood returns to visit her ducking spot every July and can be seen as a spot of light dancing on Witch Duck Bay.
    • text: According to local residents, a strange moving light, said to be Sherwood's restless spirit, still appears each July over the spot in Witch Duck Bay where Sherwood was thrown into the water.
  • 58:
    • source: The pardon was perfectly timed for an uncommonly monumental anniversary that might not have been so smoothly choreographed were it not for the bulldogged nature of resident Belinda Nash. It was Nash, 59, a former pig farmer who, out of her zeal for truth and love of research, investigated the life of Sherwood, scouting records from old church vestries, historical societies and libraries, and then learning how to lobby a governor for a pardon.
    • text: Belinda Nash, in addition to writing a biography of Sherwood, worked tirelessly to get her pardoned. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:12, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates/Grace_Sherwood/archive2&oldid=1089831697"