Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 June 23

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June 23

Greek Title

Please transliterate and translate the title of Theodore of Gaza's book. I can't write it, but the link is here: [1]. Thanks so much. --Omidinist (talk) 04:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The title is [ὅτι ἡ φύσις οΰ βουλεύται'] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help) (approximation because the text was so unclear), which can be transliterated as oti i físis ou voulevti in modern transliteration. Sadly, I cannot translate it. Hope I helped. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 09:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The last word is βουλεύεται, "bouleuetai", which is a verb like "decides" (rather than βουλεύται, "bouleutai", the people in the boule). φύσις, "physis", is "nature". Sorry, my Greek is terrible, so I'm not much help. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:28, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

"Why nature is not resolved on," i.e., why the scope of nature's operations is an undecided question. In addition to Adam's emendation, the fourth word is οὐ, not οΰ. Deor (talk) 12:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Just noticed that you asked for a transliteration as well: hoti ē phusis ou bouleuetai. Deor (talk) 13:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks from the bottom of my heart for the time you have spent to find the answers. --Omidinist (talk) 13:37, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Russian text on a memorial monument

...at the site of the Pechora camp a mass killing site in the town of Pechera, Vinnitsa Oblast, Ukraine (formerly Transnistria). These are the opening words of the Russian-language plaque; how to translate to English?:

• ЗАДУМАИСЯ ЧЕЛОВЕК !

(I hope I've rendered it correctly; the original is engraved in block letters.) -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 06:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
NB: an English translation of the Russian and Hebrew texts has been published in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, vol. 4, p. 1529; in that version: "Reflect, O Man!" -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It can be transliterated as "Zadumaisya chelovek!" Try searching the terms in a Russian-English dictionary. Given that the second word is "man", I think it does translate as "Reflect, O Man!" as given in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (however, since I do not speak Russian, I am not sure). --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 09:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Is it a Russian translation of "Ecce Homo"? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't think so. My Russian Bible translates "Ecce Homo" (or rather, Ἱδού ό Ἂνθρωπος) simply as "ce, Чeлoвeк". —Angr 19:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Is that bible in actual Russian or Old Church Slavonic, Angr? (The Russian Orthodox Church's services are conducted in the latter, not the former, and there are significant differences.) "ce" looks like Old Church Slavonic to me. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

It's in actual Russian, but of course it might be highly OCS-influenced. My OCS (or RCS) Bible says "ce чл҃вѣкъ". —Angr 04:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Greek name style

In the book The Burnt Ones the ending of names changes according to whether it's a male or female form, or a family name and then when it's plural. If I say the Alexious family, that's the family name, but if I want to say the Alexiouses in the Greek form, would it be the Alexioi, or something else? Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 09:34, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

With respect to pluralization of Classical Greek and Latin names, which dictates -us names be pluralized to -i, Alexioi would indeed seem to be the correct plural. It does sound strange, but that's thanks to the -ous ending being uncommon (compare Comnenus and the likes). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ishtar Dark (talk • contribs) 17:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Except that in unlatinised Greek they end in '-os', not '-us'. Unless 'Alexious' has been Latinised from 'Alexioos', it would appear to have an ending '-ous'. It's anybody's guess what the plural would be: perhaps even something like 'Alexiodes'. --ColinFine (talk) 23:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your helpful answers. Will go ahead with Alexioi in the plot summary unless something else comes up. Meanwhile, I'll post this to the talk page for future reference. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 04:00, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Indian

What does "Indian Valley" mean?

College of Marin - Kentfield, Indian Valley

— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marin_County%2C_California#Colleges_and_universities

68.148.164.166 (talk) 11:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

As one might gather, it's the name of one of the two campuses of the College of Marin. It's in the town of Novato. Why it's called the Indian Valley campus is explained in the last paragraph under "History" in College of Marin. Deor (talk) 12:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The teen numbers in other languages

This thought just occurred to me today randomly. Are there other languages other than English (and I guess German, and most languages derived from German) where numbers are almost said backwards from what's written? For example, 16 is sixteen, where you say the 6 first, unlike in say Japanese or Chinese or Spanish, where it'd be ten-six. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 16:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right about the Germanic languages; the Scandinavian languages use the inverted up to 20, as does English. German is even more extreme: it uses the inverted order up to 100 (25 is fünfundzwanzig). The inverted order also exists (to some degree) in the romance languages: Italian inverts the order until sixteen (sedici, shortened from sei-dieci)) where it switches ordering (17 is diciassette, shortened (or rather sped up) from dieci e sette); French works basically the same although the number words from 11 to 16 have been shortened so much they are almost unrecognizable. This is of course another question, but I've always wondered about that peculiar hexadecimality in the romance languages... -- Ferkelparade π 17:33, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Latin goes undecim (one-ten) to septendecim (seven-ten) then duo-de-viginti (two from twenty), undeviginti (one-from-twenty). Spanish goes quince (from quindecim, 15) then diez y seis (ten and six). I'd be unsurprised to learn that some Romance languages break pattern at yet other points. —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Hebrew. The word for 10 is 'eser; from 11 to 19 the digits appear reversed as in English: akhat-'esrei, shteim-'esrei, shlosh-esrei... using the construct form of the ones' digit's name so no conjunction is needed. The higher numbers with 1-9 for the ones' digit (21-29, 31-39, etc.) combine as the sequence of the digits and include the conjunction prefix ve- ("and"; u- before the letter shin) between them: 'esrim ve-akhat, 'esrim u-shtayyim, 'esrim ve-shalosh... -- Deborahjay (talk) 17:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Russian too. The teens are all of the form number + preposition + shortened form of ten: одиннадсать, двенадсать, etc. After the teens, though, it's more like English, though some are weird, but they're all "twenty two" sorts of things. (Why is 40 "сорок", I've always wondered?) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:23, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I was once told that sorok (Russian for 40) literally means 'bushel', though there's no evidence of that in my biggest bilingual dictionary. —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorok is an exception, rather like English eleven. It's most likely a loanword, either from Greek (σαράντα), or from Turkic (kirk). The earlier Slavic word for "forty" was четыре десѧте. Max Vasmer postulates the original meaning of sorok as "forty sable furs" and connects it with a Russian word for shirt, sorochka, which is likely derived form Old Norse serkr. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:39, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

The Celtic languages also say "four-teen", "fif-teen", "six-teen" etc. in that order. And if you're mentioning the actual items being counted, you even say "two horses and twenty" or "nine years and thirty" and the like. —Angr 19:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Across the ocean, Apachean languages have this order as well. Western Apache adds a -ts’ádah "-teen" suffix to the ones digits and Navajo adds a similar -tsʼáadah suffix. This is also true of Kiowa. – ishwar  (speak) 20:51, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, this is a lot more examples than I ever expected to see. Thanks for all the responses, and do keep them coming! I just started wondering this because only digits in certain ranges have this weird rule, and I actually thought it might only be a Germanic thing. I could understand more if 11-99 all followed the same format (well, 99 would be 99 either way, but you get the idea). Anyone know how this discrepancy came about then? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• Actually 99 is not necessarily the same either way, because the component indicating the tens digit may be modified. Thus in English we have "ninety-nine", whereas in German they have the equivalent of "nine-and-ninety": neunundneunzig. --Anonymous, zero four: four-and-twenty, June the twenty-fourth, two thousand eight.

Like English, (and unlike the hexadecimal shift in Ferkelparade's examples of French and Italian) Latin and Romanian numbers, but also Finnish numerals, are further examples of little endianness from 11-19, switching to big endianness for higher numbers. According to the article on Etruscan numerals Etruscologists think Etruscan had one-ten (θuśar), two-ten (zalśar}, three-ten (ciśar) ... too. Australian Aboriginal enumeration has examples in Wurundjeri and Wotjobaluk where all the numbers 1 through 16 (or 15) are named after body parts. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:17, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I dont think it's weird. -teen just means "+10" while -ty means "x10". And having both as suffixes is a very regular thing.

I also don't find it weird. The adoption of Arabic numerals for writing numbers was a late development, long after all the languages mentioned above had come into being. Xn4 22:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The Hindi words between 10 and 100 are not regularly created. Amongst the language descriptions [here], there are some descriptions of what the author calls "ethnomathematics". Steewi (talk) 01:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Aren't some of the oddities with numbers in the various IE languages due to the fact that Proto-IE used a base-20 counting system? Paul Davidson (talk) 02:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Vigesimal#Related_observations brushes that connection, but doesn't make it perfectly clear to me. Are there languages that count something like "eight, nine, onety, onety-one, onety-two, ..."? The article on number names has an overview, though not much on teens. It links to some more pages on numerals in specific languages. See also list of numeral system topics. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:49, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Arabic is just like Hebrew, ahad ashara, ithna ashara, thalath ashara, etc, for the teens, and then uses "wa" for the higher numbers (ahad wa ashrayn, etc). Also, In the higher numbers, feminine endings are used if they are describing something masculine, and vice versa. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Hebrew: On some occasions, such as counting the Omer or in the Avodah during the Mussaf service of Yom Kippur, the custom is to say the smaller number first, For example: in the Omer counting: echad v-esrim yom, shnaim v-esrim, yom; in the Avodah: achat v-shalosh, achat v-arbah. A discussion of this point can be found in the Talmud Yoma 55a. Simonschaim (talk) 15:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Sluzzelin, French starts off fairly similar to English but then goes sixty-nine, sixty-ten, sixty-eleven, to sixty-nineteen. Then four-twenties, four-twenties and one, four-twenties two, till four-twenties nine, then one hundred. That's in France. In French-speaking Belgium they use septante and octante meaning seventy and eighty. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Quite, Itsmejudith. I was referring to Ferkelparade's observation, that number names in some Romance languages switch the order of digits in their mid-teens. Often between 16 and 17, as in French (seize > dix-sept), Italian (sedici > diciasette), but also Catalan (setze > disset), Sardinian (seighi > deghesette) or Romansh (sedisch > gisiat). Portuguese and Spanish even shift one number earlier (quinze/quince > dezasseis/dezesseis/dieciséis). At the same time, Latin, the mother of Romance languages, and Romanian, are consistent from 11 through 19, always giving units followed by tens. Maybe it has nothing to do with hexadecimal, and maybe there are phonematical reasons for these shifts, but that's what I was referring to. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

In Switzerland they say septante, huitante. – One of the early Astérix books mentions a Belgian druid named Septantesix, which I didn't get for years! —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

What about the exceptions in English, eleven and twelve? --141.161.98.54 (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, these are found throughout Germanic.

Latin, at least at some periods, used 'duodeviginti' and 'undeviginti' ('two-from-twenty' and 'one-from-twenty') for 18 and 19. The only parallel I know for this is Finnish, where 8 and 9 are 'kahdeksan' and 'yhdeksän', which are transparently derived from 'kaksi' 2 and 'yksi' 1 respectively.

And English used to have the order described above for German: I know people who still use it in the isolated expression 'five and twenty to' in telling the time. --ColinFine (talk) 23:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

In the Crosstime Engineer novels by Leo Frankowski (set in medieval Poland), the words used for duodecimal arithmetic – ten, eleven, twelve, oneteen, twoteen, thirteen – are among several points illustrating that the author didn't know any Polish, alas: the pattern break between "twelve" and "thirteen" is (so far as I know) unique to Germanic. —Tamfang (talk) 04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I just have to say that I heard a Finn count to ten yesterday (in a radio interview with Margaret Throsby), and for the first time, I thought "what a cool language". The horrible look of printed Finnish texts has always put me off ever investigating it. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I use the "units and xty" form whenever I'm baking blackbirds in a pie. Deor (talk) 23:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

...his viva in medicine

On the Jose Aboulker page: "...he had his viva in medicine." Per the French Wikipedia page: "... il soutint sa thèse de médecine." How to rewrite the English correctly translated and comprehensible to a speaker of American English, please? -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Viva is short for viva voce, usually the final examination that a degree candidate has to pass before receiving a doctorate. Perhaps "defended his thesis in medicine"? Deor (talk) 18:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think "defended his thesis in medicine" is quite right. First degrees in medicine are not research degrees, even if the word "doctor" is in the name. There is no thesis to defend. If the concept of viva voce exam is not familiar to the readers, I'd suggest either calling it an "oral exam" instead, or phrasing it as "... he had his viva (i.e. oral) examination in medicine". --71.162.233.193 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure about that as it applies to France? With regard to Scotland, Arthur Conan Doyle says "He completed his doctorate on the subject of tabes dorsalis in 1885," which implies to me the writing of a thesis for a first medical degree. Deor (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A first medical degree does not require research/a thesis and is in fact not a doctorate in the U.K. and Ireland. It is a bachelor's degree despite the fact that one may take the title "Doctor". One may go on to receive a Doctorate through research, but it's not neccesary to hold one to be a medical Doctor. Fribbler (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Although generally treated as a single degree, it's technically a double bachelors: usually MBChB (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery) and it's not exclusive to the UK. Gwinva (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

But look at the original question and the French expression appearing therein. Soutint sa thèse de médecine can mean nothing but "defended his thesis in medicine"; it's exactly parallel to the American expression. Whatever hoops one has to jump through in the UK or elsewhere to become a doctor, the French WP is definitely saying that Aboulker passed an oral examination on his doctoral thesis. Deor (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

For those who read French you can refer to this page [2]. AldoSyrt (talk) 07:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be a confusion between doctorat/doctorale and the student doctor's undergrad medicine degree or similar where viva voce is a routine part of exam requirements in many schools, examples here to start with[3] Question is, was Jose Aboulker a doctoral post grad student and finally awarded a PhD? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

All evidence I have indicates that he studied medicine in his native Algeria to become a physician, and pursued further qualification (residency) in Paris where eventually practiced medicine as a neurosurgeon. (I use these terms deliberately to avoid confusion with the English-language word "doctor.") The page was initially translated from the French Wikipedia and remains in non-native English that would benefit from comparison to the source (i.e. corrected translation) for proper editing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The non-native English looks normal to me and non-committal if it is simply saying he did a viva in Algeria. The Fr article doesn't say afaik, that he was onto his doctorate. Vivas are part of exams to be a surgeon too. Neurosurgeons according to wiki do so many years training and include doctorates in the higher options on the way. In the French article, his father was a surgeon (chirurgien) – i can't find a reference there to anyone being a neurosurgeon (neurochirurgien). Unless the french is supported by citation, it's hard to be clear even accepting that it literally translates as him supporting/defending his thesis. That's where your citations to his achievements come into it. I personally wouldn't presume a doctoral thesis since neurosurgeons write a lot of stuff in support of their theses (as in medical propositions) about areas of their field anyway without it being doctoral. Fwiw, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The non-native English which appeared suspicious to me was not the initial subject of this query (which I attributed to unfamiliar, possibly Continental, usage), but further on: "...in 1946 he resumed his medicinal studies. He passed the internal examinations at the Hospital of Paris..." [mild emphases mine; original: "...ses études de médecine.Il passa successivement les concours d'interne..."]. Even were we to compare with with the presumed source (under a different heading chronologically), its lacking citations and my own relative unfamiliarity with accreditation for the medical profession in these countries made me hesitate to edit - and bring it to this forum for further scrutiny. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The internat refers to the last years of the French medical studies. The concours d'interne refers to a competitive examination before the internat years. According to their rank at this examination, medical students choose their teatching hospital, their speciality, etc. At the end of internat the student defends his thesis to get the diplôme d'Etat de docteur en médecine. It is not a research thesis (PhD) but a special kind of thesis called thèse d'exercice. These are medical studies today in France. It was slightly different in those days (circa 1940), and medical studies in Algeria should not be different as those in France at that time. More here [[4]]. AldoSyrt (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hand that feeds...and...?

One advantage (or not) of living with randoms in a shared house is the often returned to episodes of drink-fuelled discussions on absolutely nothing. Hence this question, really. If you annoyed someone, there is the existing phrase "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". So is there a "liquid" equivilant for the hand that...well it's not "the hand that drinks you", so "waters"? maybe? Any ideas? doktorb _words^deeds 18:31, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Hand that feeds food and water.Coffsneeze (not Coff N. Sneeze) (talk) 19:45, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't jog the elbow that pours your drink. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.228.88.36 (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for both of you. I will advise my mate when he comes back from the pub :) doktorb _words^deeds 20:53, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Qirlo-Qerlo

Hey i would like to know the meaning of word QIRLO or QERLO

please help me in finding the meaning of this word in any languages —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.49.121 (talk) 19:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Not found in google. Where did you get it from? Julia Rossi (talk) 08:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Bless your (his/her etc.) cotton socks

Where does this expression orginate? Does it have a historical background?84.136.158.195 (talk) 20:57, 23 June 2008 (UTC)frau

One theory is that it's to do with the missionary George Cotton, Anglican Bishop of Calcutta in the late 1850s and early 1860s, who sent home appeals for clothing for local children, stressing the need for warm socks, which he thought were the key to health. So women knitted lots of little woolly socks and sent them off, and on arrival in Calcutta Bishop Cotton literally blessed everything he received. Cotton's socks, cotton socks? It's possible, at least. Xn4 22:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

In the Gospel of Matthew, the Sermon on the Mount (chapters 5 - 7) the scribe records the qualities of heavenly residents, as seen by the orator. The tenth beatitude says "Blessed are ye that weareth garments of woven shibboleth to shroud thine metatarsal phalanges".

Biblical scholars have puzzled on this cryptic parabola and the semantics in Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew. The noted Sephardic Rabbinical scholar Timus Tinnittus has proposed the translation of "Tiptoe thru the tulips", eschwing all references to cotton socks... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You're in fine form, Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM! Have you been at the dandelion wine again? Xn4 23:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

And let it be known (to both of you): "Lol". Fribbler (talk) 23:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

The simplest explanation is that it is what you say to a child, wearer of (little cotton) socks rather than (longer woollen or silk) stockings. The expression is thus rather dated since adults also wear socks these days. It is said when the child has said something endearingly naive. "Ah, bless!" is an alternative. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I wear cotton socks. Is that why people don't respect my hypothetical gray hairs? —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Two years later I had a few grey hairs. —Tamfang (talk) 04:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Of course metatarsal phalanges makes as much sense as nasal chin. —Tamfang (talk) 04:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)