Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2008 January 11

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January 11

Travel across the Mediterranean Sea in ancient and medieval times

How long did it take to get from one end of the Mediterranean Sea to the other in classical times? Roman times? Medieval times? I can't find anything on this at Mediterranean Sea or History of the Mediterranean region and was hoping someone here might have some insight. As for what I mean by "one end to the other", I suppose I mean both from southern Europe to northern Africa from north to south and from the Strait of Gibraltar to Palestine from west to east. Thanks! — Dulcem (talk) 02:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

In classical (Roman) times, it could take weeks (or longer with adverse winds) to get from east to west or vice versa, and there was a stormy season during which much of the Mediterranean was essentially closed to long-distance shipping. You can read the account of St. Paul's journey to Rome in Acts for one account of a long voyage by sea... AnonMoos (talk) 04:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought I saw a map of this not long ago, but can't find it now. There's a section in Fernand Braudel's book The Mediterranean (Vol. I) on sea travel times during the 1500s. He focuses on "exceptional" travel times, trying to estimate the minimum time required for various routes. He estimates the best speeds available at the time as being around 200 kilometers per day. Normal average time would vary widely, ranging from twice to over ten times the minimum time. He gives numerous examples of known voyages and how long they took, pointing out how "normal" travel time varied widely depending on season, ship, route, and of course, weather. After after all these caveats, he cautiously says that between 1500 and about 1700 average travel time for crossing the Mediterranean from north to south took about 1-2 weeks, "and that it was likely to be a matter of two or three months if one were sailing from east to west or vice versa." Pfly (talk) 04:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Great information! Thanks for the help! — Dulcem (talk) 04:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, Ulysses took a generation to travel around the Med (his baby son had grown into a man by the time he got home) so clearly any long-distance travel was always regarded as a chancy thing. More recently in 1995, travel writer Paul Theroux circumnavigated the Med, mostly on land, and referred to ancient travel in his book Pillars of Hercules. BrainyBabe (talk) 13:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

But Ulysses also took a 10-year stop in Troy before continuing the voyage, so the journey itself was ten years shorter than a generation. Corvus cornix_talk 22:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Something to take into account is that Romans generally stuck to the coasts and didn't go far out on sea. This means longer routes, and therefore longer travelling times. User:Krator (t c) 13:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Even in the 1500s, according to Braudel, ships mainly kept close to the coast. Multiple day trips out of sight of land were still unusual, except on certain well-established routes, like Rhodes to Alexandria, given good weather. Even there direct crossings were not exactly commonplace. Pfly (talk) 22:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

See also the Michael of Rhodes website for a great source about ships, routes and navigation in the 1400's.

Obtaining sculpture

I'd like to obtain a copy of a sculpture which I think is called "Circle of friends". It depicts a group of serene figures seated crosslegged and holding hands. If you know Stargate Atlantis, you can see an example of it on Dr Weir's desk. Can it be obtained through the Internet? LuckyThracian (Talk) 03:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Try this: http://www.mexicanbeautygiftshop.com/terra_cotta.htm --Petteroes (talk) 06:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Petteroes. LuckyThracian (Talk) 02:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Fiction books about Pankration?

Are there any fiction books (novels) about Pankration (the ancient Greek olympic sport)? Or howabout any movies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.71.223.87 (talk) 06:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a 1997 novel Pankrationfor young adults. SaundersW (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC) Patrida seems to be another, maybe for adults. I found both of these by googling Pankration novel. SaundersW (talk) 19:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Voting twice in U.S. primaries

If a Utah resident is an independent, then will it be possible for him to vote in the Republican and Democratic primaries on Super Duper Tuesday?--71.107.214.106 (talk) 09:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• From what I can find, an independent can vote in either primary that day, but not both. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Americans are not party members as that is understood in some other countries. Often the indication is simply which ballot is voted at a primary. In states with open primaries, there is no need to declare a party preference (although usually you can only vote for one party's candidates), and therefore there are large numbers of "independents". In closed primaries, you must declare a party preference but you may not need any party membership before the registration deadline or need to stay with that party the next primary. My spouse is on both the Republican and Democratic mailing lists probably for this reason, due to switches between closed and open primaries in our state. Our article on Primary election seems to indicate that Utah is having a closed primary so independents can't vote at all. However there are errors on that page. Rmhermen (talk) 15:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have never understood the way that US parties choose their presidential candidates. I thought this was just because I am British. Having skimmed the primary election article, I now wonder how many Americans understand it. Not even Mr. Robinson and Mr. Goldberg could have designed a more convoluted process ! Gandalf61 (talk) 16:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That article doesn't even touch on caucuses like Iowa's Democratic one where you literally stand in a corner for your candidate - now there is oddness. Or irregularities like some of the delegates to the national convention aren't voted on at all - the superdelegates. Rmhermen (talk) 20:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Gandalf. These current US processes seem to be more-or-less the equivalent of what we'd call party preselection over here, except that rather than candidates being selected by internal party processes and announced to the public, as happens here, they're voted for by the public over there. They are far from the main event, but the way the papers present them, you'd almost think every single event was its own "main event". We've just been through a year-long federal election campaign here, of which only the last 6 weeks was the official campaign. Now we have to put up with another whole year of the US official electoral process, and being told breathlessly by our own media outlets, let alone the US ones, of what's happening at every step along the way, with front-page photos and huge 4-page spreads and editorial commentary for every single caucus or primary. It's almost as if what's happening in the US is of greatly more significance to us than what happens here. It's not insignificant, but come on, a little perspective wouldn't go astray. This is traditionally the non-news season, so they have to find something to qualify for the front pages, but I'm sick of it already, and the year's hardly begun. (Oops, I slipped into my first, and hopefully last, rant for 2008. Sorry.) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

With no incumbent, the campaigning (or at least positioning) has been going on for a couple years here already. Many of us are quite tired of it. (And my state's primary won't even count.) Rmhermen (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Short articles on various topics

Hi there. I've just come back from my local book store, a little bit dissapointed, as I wasn't able to find just what I was looking for. I've turned to the internet now and I need a little help. For my language classes I need a handful of short articles (in the order of 300-1000 words) on important world topics that could be read by high-schoolers. Broad topics are best, such as, "Language Extinction", "Human Memory", "Stress relief", "Glow-in-the-dark mice", etc.

My problem is that although there are plenty of good articles available on topics like these, they're often extremely long and not appropriate for the high-school students I teach. I want to make sure they're getting properly referenced information (none of this 400 words for 'snow' poppycock), which rules out most of the English textbooks that I've seen, and I'm not really that great at writing interesting science / society articles, so I'm kind of at a loss for ideas.

Does anybody know of any good online resources? Thanks a bunch. 220.146.214.130 (talk) 14:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe try the Simple English Wikipedia? User:Krator (t c) 15:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Not online, but you could go back to your book store and look for A Little Knowledge by Michael Macrone - a collection of short essays on influential concepts in the history of ideas. Gandalf61 (talk) 15:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This may be of limited use because you've probably already considered this one, but I would suggest going to your local library and photocopying some decent Britannica articles. Loads of them would be too long, but some would be around 1000 words, and on reasonable topics. Tricky one, though. Let us know if you find anything, because my own teaching would prob. benefit from the resource. 203.221.126.81 (talk) 15:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What about periodical articles? You can search online at the magazine's website, or your library will have printed or online guides to periodical literature. In the U.S., for example, the articles in newsmagazines like Time and Newsweek are generally short, cover all kinds of topics, and are written at a level high school students can understand. Catrionak (talk) 15:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

From the UK, you might consider articles from Guardian science, (or any other section from that paper), or New Scientist. They are well written nd pretty well referenced. SaundersW (talk) 19:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

At a slight tangent, the book The Practical Cogitator by Charles Curtis and Ferris Greenslet, while not "up to the minute", has an excellent range of pieces covering a wide range of ideas and writers. DuncanHill (talk) 20:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to bet that your local school library and/or public library has access to the high school version of Encyclopedia Britannica online. Either way it's free. You should contact them and see. 160.10.98.44 (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I'm embarrassed to say that I hadn't even considered Britannica, what with Wikipedia being so huge these days! I'll definitely check that out, as well as the other sources suggested. Thanks again! 210.138.109.72 (talk) 23:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

NON PROFIT FOUNDATION IN GREAT BRITAIN

Just looking for some more guide lines to start a non profit foundation in the U.K. called "Helping Hand Foundation" Re doners,setting up for tax purposes and so on. Thanks. Fluter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 14:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Assuming you mean "England and Wales" rather than the unhelpfully vague UK, there is some info here, but for more in-depth/specific advice you'd need to contact a lawyer and/or accountant. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the information and web site Angus Mclellan,Yes I did mean England and Wales,although I would like the foundation to go worlwide in time.But this will be a start.Fluter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.86.15.15 (talk) 15:50, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Are we constantly lying?

Are woman lying when they use make-up, since they may look younger? Are men lying when they wear a coat, since they may look broader? 217.168.0.24 (talk) 19:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

No one is lying, because no one knows the truth. --Milkbreath (talk) 20:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Are we lying by wearing clothes because we're actually naked? I think lying is only lying if there is actually a threat that people will be deceived. Wrad (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The answer is yes and no because lying is too much of a loose term and can be applied to say 'yes' and also 'no' as answers. In some ways we're lying. In other ways we're not lying. So maybe if you refine the question a bit more you can receive a better answer. It's like asking "What's the meaning of life". Does that mean "What is the meaning in my life" or "What is the purpose of my life" or "What is the purposes of life in general" or "What does the word 'life' mean" or "What significance does the existance of life in general have" or does it mean "What is the significance of Human Consciousness that separates us from animals". As you can see, a vague question has too many answers. Rfwoolf (talk) 20:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Vague questions can be useful, though. A woman who wears makeup to look 10 years younger is not consider a liar (in the US). But a woman who wears glasses that look like they are prescriptive lenses but are actually not, with the intention of looking "smarter", might be. Somewhere in the middle are those who wear false-color contact lenses, which I personally don't mind but have often understood the implication that some people thought that was crossing some sort of uncomfortable line. --24.147.69.31 (talk) 04:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

And there there are . . . Hair transplantation, Liposuction, Codpiece, Cosmetic surgery, Cosmetic dentistry, Artificial limbs, Dermabrasion, Wigs, Hair extensions, Waxing, Hair colouring, Merkin and Cosmetology, to name just a few ways in which we set out to deceive ourselves and others. “Will the real person stand up please?” Bielle (talk) 17:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The question seems to include a category mistake. Xn4 22:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? Are humans not capable or lying? Or this is the nature of the beast?217.168.3.246 (talk) 01:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there someone with a subscription to Highbeam research? I want to know the name of the third hijacker of Ethiopian 961

I found this: http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-64680823.html

It gives names of two of the hijackers, but the third only has his given name. I want to know his surname too.

So, does someone with a subscription to Highbeam work here? I would like to know the surname of the third hijacker of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 961. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't work here; we do this for fun.

First, note that the Highbeam article is just an archived Seattle Post-Intelligencer article, so any newspaper that carried the story would have the same information. I did a Google search on "ethopian", "hijackers", and "1996", and at the end of the first page of results it gave me a link to do a "news archive search". I did that and it gave me links to the Highbeam page and others at similar sites, presumably all sites requiring payment. I looked down the synopses to see other ones from the same date, and noticed that some of them used the phrase "two unemployed high school graduates and a nurse". I then did a Google phrase search on that phrase and found a hit on this web page at the Minnesota Daily, which includes three news articles, and the third one gives the missing name. I'll add it to the Wikipedia article.

--Anonymous, 06:23 UTC, January 12, 2008.

• I am aware that there is no actual payment - I just said "work," that's all. Thanks! WhisperToMe (talk) 01:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Ancient religious symbols

Where on earth or on Wikipedia can I find a book or images of anceint religious symbols. I am have searched here and found very little no drawings of symbols... what I've found was not very impressive and extremely limited.

Any ideas?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.116.154.80 (talk) 21:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Astarte was a female god and here is her image.

The ancient peoples had many gods. Many later rulers like Theodosius I banned Roman polytheism and other forms of polytheism. Twelve Olympians and other articles abound in religious symbols.--71.107.218.211 (talk) 21:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Some are at site http://www.symbols.com/ -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Religious symbolism, commons:Religious symbol may be of help. --Neutrality^talk 22:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Some questions

I was wondering: 1. What is the highest unclimbed mountain? 2. What mountain is found farthest from the center of the earth? I've heard of the answers, but I forgot and was trying to remember. Spencer 22:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You might start with Highest unclimbed mountain.  :) Corvus cornix_talk 23:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And the mountain most often cited as having its peak farthest from the center of the earth is Chimborazo (volcano) in Ecuador. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 00:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

discharge under mental health act

I am trying to write a question about the extent to which the discharge provisions of the MHA 83 safeguard a patients right against arbitrary detention.

So far i have focused on article 5 (4) and the MH tribunals, with issues such as speed and also the controversy surrounding the medical member as a tribunal member because the member can be seen to be not impartial.

How can i bring in an assessment of article 5 (1) into this with consideration also of the substantive criteria for defintion?

Any help will be very much appreciated

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.1.1.128 (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Specifying the jurisdiction (country or state) you are asking about could help. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 05:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The UK 1983 MHA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.194.126 (talk) 14:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)