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Lady Gaga[edit]

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I've listed this article for peer review because I, IndianBio and SNUGGUMS have been working on it since about 2015 on this article to make it good enough for FAC. Lady Gaga is an American singer known for outlandish style and provocative work early in her career. She was arguably the biggest pop star in the world from 2009-2011. With 7.6k words, the size of the article is comparable to Taylor Swift which stands at 6.5k words. Gaga has a long pre-fame history, one more album, BTW foundation, two Superbowl and Oscars performances, American Horror History so it is bound to be longer than Swift's article. All your comments to improve the article are appreciated.

Thanks, FrB.TG (talk) 18:24, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely hope this gets a good amount of input this time; the last peer review hardly went anywhere. Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:25, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Mymis[edit]

  • I have replaced all the questionable sources except the two Twitter links from Guinness. They are valid as coming directly from the company's twitter. A better source could have been used but was not found for the statement it is referenced. Hence I will keep the Twitter sources for now. —IB [ Poke ] 05:18, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Way more refs should be archived, especially non-newspaper articles, such as press releases or born this way foundation page etc, as they become broken very soon.
  • I know nothing about how to do that, so someone else will have to take care of it Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:37, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference archiving won't be done until and unless a PR is completed and all sources are stabilized. No point in doing multiple archiving. —IB [ Poke ] 05:18, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "at CAP21 through NYU's" in intro -> what is NYU?
  • All sources that were placed years ago must be re-checked one by one. For instance, refs 280 and 281 don't discuss what they're supposed to. I have replaced some fake sources last year in the same section, or whatnot, but definitely more work must be done.

Mymis (talk) 17:04, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • That's definitely going to be an issue. Thanks for pointing it out. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:37, 21 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mammoth task. Taking up one section at a time. —IB [ Poke ] 05:18, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

Sorry to be so slow, been busy recently ... will weigh in as opportunity presents.

  • Since we are being urged to keep clutter out of the first paragraph, I suggest moving the pronunciation to a footnote.
  • I don't like the second sentence of the lede. It isn't "big picture" enough. The lede paragraph should be the executive summary of the article, with the essence distilled in the first paragraph. I would cut it, let the existing third sentence be the second sentence, and add a sentence about her success and achievements.
Shifted the third sentence but rephrased the unconventionality bit as she was just as (in)famous for her weird style as her hit singles and albums.
  • "three Italian grandparents and one American grandparent" this reads a bit oddly. I'm not sure putting it this way (the "American" especially) conveys her ancestry to the reader. It would be more usual to say the "American" grandparent's ancestry.
  • "Gaga's sister Natali is a fashion student.[11]" the article is from 2011 so I doubt that's still the case.
I don't believe there's an update on that so simply removed the profession.

Done to 2005, more soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:57, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed the third issue; the rest, I shall leave on @IndianBio and SNUGGUMS: to sort out as I am not entirely sure what to do there. – FrB.TG (talk) 12:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Looking forward to more comments from you. – FrB.TG (talk) 21:16, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Queen should be linked on first use.
  • " He sent these songs to his friend, producer and record executive Vincent Herbert.[34] He was quick to sign her to his label Streamline Records, an imprint of Interscope Records, established in 2007.[35] " The "He" that beings consecutive sentences are different people. I might try to avoid that.
  • "The accompanying tour for Born This Way," I might say "The tour in support of Born This Way", which I think is the customary term.
  • "and by June 2014, she and new manager Bobby Campbell joined Artist Nation, the artist management division of Live Nation Entertainment.[114]" You might want to make clearer what Artist Nation does.
  • "A panned role of a shapeshifting hitman in Robert Rodriguez's Machete Kills (2013) earned Gaga a Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Supporting Actress nomination." I might cut "panned". It's implied.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:58, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read under public image that views of her are polarized, but I don't read much criticism other than the PETA.
  • "In July 2012, Gaga also co-founded the website LittleMonsters.com, which became the first official social network devoted to fans of an artist." What is an official social network?
  • Is the lawsuit really worth mentioning, let alone the lawyer's name?
  • "she joined with Dalai Lama" should be a the before Dalai
  • " also issued order for State-controlled media to condemn this meeting" an before order
  • It may be worth mentioning that she was in the VIP area for the Hillary "victory" party, and somewhat upset. It seems as worth mentioning as anything else.
  • "In July 2012, the BTWF partnered with Office Depot, which donated 25% of the sales-a minimum of $1 million-of a series of limited edition back-to-school products that promote the foundation's message." dash issue.
  • "The foundation's initiatives have included, in March–April 2012, a poster competition that asked participants to submit images that answer the question "What does bravery mean to you?";[262] the "Born Brave Bus" that would follow her on tour as a youth drop-in center as an initiative against bullying;[263][264] and the "Born Brave" community and school groups.[265]". The multiple semicolon probably could be commas.
  • "their Senators " lower case
  • "having grossed more than $300 million in revenue from 3.2 million tickets for her first three worldwide concert tours." Are these figures correct? Nearly a hundred dollars a ticket?
It says so in the Billboard source.
  • "with them on social media after working with Gaga..[291]" dots
I think it could use a little more mention of reactions against Gaga, should there be such things in reliable sources. Otherwise it looks fine.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:26, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt, thank you so much for the comments; they have been of tremendous help as always. I have addressed your points and added some criticism of Gaga wherever appropriate. – FrB.TG (talk) 09:36, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by John[edit]

Started looking at this. I don't think that either of these is quite right:

  • Despite her affluent upbringing on Manhattan's Upper West Side, she says that her parents "both came from lower-class families, so we've worked for everything—my mother worked eight to eight out of the house, in telecommunications, and so did my father".
  • Gaga explained her antics represented freedom: "I went to a Catholic school but it was on the New York underground that I found myself."
  • I also see two "acclaimed"s and six "successful"s still on the article. This is fanspeak. I will continue to look. --John (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, John. Thanks for dropping by to post comments. Re your first two concerns, what is it that is not making sense: the phrasing or are they not in the source? As for the last one, I don't believe those two words are POV because if a work is a successful, it won't be fanspeak to say that it is successful. What wouldn't, however, be neutral is for example if I say her certain work was "extremely successful", "awesome" etc. Cheers. – FrB.TG (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No problem. It isn't that they don't make sense; it's the overquoting and the "despite" in the first one and the overquoting and the "antics" in the second one. Tabloids write like this but we are not a tabloid. Six "successful"s are definitely too many, and "acclaimed" is a meaningless weasel word. If an album has received an award or a hit record, it is fine to record that, with a good source. Almost any song or album, will have been regarded as acclaimed by someone. It is better not to use language like this. --John (talk) 19:46, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm that makes sense; all taken care of. Looking forward to more comments (and/or ce's). – FrB.TG (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@John: do you have any more comments on the prose and the quotes - I have tried to keep the latter as limited as possible but you never know.. – FrB.TG (talk) 10:16, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I probably do. Can you give me a day or two? --John (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

John, any updates on this? – FrB.TG (talk) 20:14, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I was away on holiday and got back the day before yesterday. It's getting there; as always happens on an article about a pop star, the article has been written by fans so there is still a lot of fan-speak, huge over-referencing and too much detail in some areas. We cannot use The Daily Express on a BLP as it is a tabloid. If you're in a hurry to close this, please do so. If you can give me a few more days I will continue to chisel away at it. --John (talk) 20:55, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't sense any hurry, so 3–5 days is fine. Snuggums (talk / edits) 21:42, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to bow out now. Things to look at if you plan to take this to FAC will be WP:OVERLINK, the overall writing quality, over-detailed presentation, enormous degrees of over-referencing, and the worrying fact that when I checked, several references did not support what they were supposed to. Good luck! --John (talk) 18:59, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for all you could offer! It's gonna be one hell of a time at FAC either way. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:00, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, John. I will certainly look into these concerns more closely before a trip to FAC. As usual, your edits improved the flow and the neutrality of the prose, though there were a few things that I wasn't thrilled about. Cheers. – FrB.TG (talk) 21:28, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome. I think the article is better without gems like She commented that as a child, she somehow absorbed Cher's out-there fashion sense and made it her own. Gaga considers Donatella Versace her muse, and the late English fashion designer and close friend Alexander McQueen as an inspiration, admitting that "I miss Lee every time I get dressed" while channeling him in some of her work. although I realise that tastes differ. John (talk) 08:05, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ceranthor[edit]

  • Comment I'm hoping to start posting some comments for this today. ceranthor 14:58, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • General comment: I do think the prose needs a good amount of work before it's ready for FAC. Here are some initial comments on the lead:
Hard to disagree with that. – FrB.TG (talk) 17:10, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the beginning of her career, Gaga was noted for her unconventionality and provocative work. - Only at the beginning? I'd say "From the beginning" or "Since"
  • FrB.TG has changed it, though this is much less often than when she first rose to fame Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaga initially played roles in high school plays, - Why initially here? Also, this reads awkwardly, might be better as "grew up acting in high school plays"
  • After leaving a rock band, participating in a performance art circuit, and being dropped from a contract with Def Jam Recordings, Gaga worked as a songwriter for Sony/ATV Music Publishing. - Why do you talk about leaving a rock band or being dropped from a contract without previously mentioning those?
  • Not sure since I wasn't the one who put it there, but I've kept in the label since it pertained more to Gaga's solo endeavors Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • From there, Akon noticed her vocal abilities and helped her sign a joint deal with Interscope Records and his own KonLive Distribution in 2007. - From there doesn't work here.
  • A follow-up EP, The Fame Monster (2009), was met with a similar reception and the singles "Bad Romance", "Telephone", and "Alejandro" were also successful. - Be more specific - what do you mean by a similar reception? To me, reception indicates critical reviews
  • All the times you use "over X million" should be "more than X million"
  • Is it common to link the list of awards received for an artist with just " She has also received awards"? Seems a little indirect to me
  • Gaga regularly appears on Billboard's Artists of the Year lists - Is this cited later in the article?
  • UPDATE: Turns out this was really referring to 2010, so I changed it up Snuggums (talk / edits) 13:34, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll provide more tomorrow hopefully. ceranthor 02:39, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Biography comments:
  • Her parents are Cynthia Louise (née Bissett) and internet entrepreneur Joseph Germanotta.[4] - any idea what her mother does or did as an occupation?
  • Gaga has Italian and French Canadian roots. - Seems to me a little odd to switch back to Gaga so quickly
  • Gaga described her academic life in high school as "very dedicated, very studious, very disciplined" but also "a bit insecure" - citation after direct quote?
  • In 2014, Gaga said she had been raped at the age of 19. After this she underwent mental and physical therapy - any more specific details on the therapy she underwent?
"I’ve gone through a lot of mental and physical therapy and emotional therapy to heal over the years". That is all.
  • The second paragraph of the early life section is very fragmented and reads like a list of little factoids. It should be reorganized to either go chronologically or separate ideas that are dissimilar. I'll wait to provide more prose comments there until this is cleaned up
hopefully a little better now?
  • When she was 19, Gaga withdrew from CAP21 during her second year, deciding to focus on her musical career.[19] - better as During her second year at CAP 21 when she was 19, Gaga withdrew... also clarify the year
  • Fusari collaborated with Gaga, who traveled daily to New Jersey, to work on songs she had written, and to compose new material with him.[8] - Gramatically, "collaborated to" doesn't make sense. It should be collaborated with
  • She was dropped by the label after three months – a period that inspired the music video of her 2011 single "Marry the Night".[25] - any idea why?
  • To be honest, I feel the video bit is better for the song's article, so I removed the part on inspiration Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:30, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • and taking drugs soon after, while performing at neo-burlesque shows, - no comma necessary following after. I think this sentence would make more sense if you rewrote the bit after "performing..." because right now it reads like she took drugs while at the shows
  • was a lo-fi tribute - this should be explained
  • Their performance at the 2007 Lollapalooza music festival was critically praised.[28] - by whom?
  • Gaga found her musical niche when she began to incorporate pop melodies and the glam rock of David Bowie and Queen into her music. - citation?
the citation for that, I believe, is FN 32
  • Akon convinced Jimmy Iovine chairman and CEO of Interscope Geffen A&M - commas needed after Iovine and A&M
  • Despite her secure record deal, she said that some radio stations found her music too "racy", "dance-oriented" and "underground" for the mainstream market. - citation for direct quote?
citation 10 - it is placed at the end of the subsection
  • the top five in Australia, the US and 15 other countries.[38][39] - keep the serial comma consistent throughout the article or don't; choose one or the other
  • umber two in the US, Australia and New Zealand. - same as above
  • See previous
  • Gaga was tested borderline positive for lupus, but claimed not to be affected by the symptoms. She said she hoped to avoid symptoms by maintaining a healthy lifestyle.[71][72] - This seems kind of out of place as is; maybe mention the date or something? is this a significant part of her image?
  • was later released as a single to rave reviews. - rave reviews, avoid WP:WEASEL words
  • While filming the former's music video, she met actor Taylor Kinney, who played her love interest and the two started dating.[81][82] - I think this would read better with a comma after interest
  • Changed to "met and started dating" since they also got together that month Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:49, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • While accepting a Best Actress award at the 73rd Golden Globe Awards for her work in American Horror Story: Hotel, Gaga said that she initially wanted to be an actress - citation? ceranthor 18:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ref 132. – FrB.TG (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2017 (UTC) now 134[reply]
  • Artistry and public image:
  • Gaga aspires to revolutionize pop music as Madonna did.[171] - This reads more like a statement of fact than a reflection of Gaga's opinion that Madonna revolutionized pop
  • The singer has also quoted Osho's book Creativity on Twitter. - linking is good, but give a brief description of who Osho is
  • She calls herself "a little bit of a feminist" and asserts that she is "sexually empowering women,"[201] Gaga strives to empower young women to stand up for what they believe.[200][202] - run-on sentence
  • Gaga's outlandish fashion sense has also been one an important aspect of her character.[214] - grammar

Less comments for these two sections, but I really think I need to go through the prose and address some of the more obvious things before I go through with a fine comb. ceranthor 00:56, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Activism, legacy, and awards:
  • After declining an invitation to appear on the single "We Are the World 25" to benefit victims of the 2010 Haiti earthquake, she donated the proceeds of her Radio City Music Hall concert of January 24, 2010, to the country's reconstruction relief fund.[233] - first mention should probably not be "she" but Gaga
  • Hours after the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami hit Japan on March 11, 2011, Gaga tweeted a message - a message about what?
  • In April 2016, Gaga joined Vice President Joe Biden at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas to support Biden's It's On Us campaign as he travels to colleges on behalf of the organization, which has seen 250,000 students from more than 530 colleges sign a pledge of solidarity and activation. - I assume this is a grammar mistake, but you meant "traveled" right?
  • . Media proprietor Oprah Winfrey, writer Deepak Chopra, and United States Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius spoke at the inauguration at Harvard University.[245][246] - the foundation's inauguration? Make this more clear
  • In an interview with Rolling Stone, she spoke about how her boyfriends were uncomfortable with her bisexuality.[23] - her past boyfriends? current boyfriend? be more clear
  • Following this event, she was named a "fierce advocate" for gays and lesbians.[264] - by whom?
  • With the success of The Fame, Gaga is credited as one of the front-runners of the rise in the popularity of synthpop in the late 2000s and early 2010s. - Because of, not with its success
  • Gaga has consecutively appeared on Billboard magazine's Artists of the Year (scoring the definitive title in 2010),[299] and named as Woman of the Year in 2015,[129] is the fifth best selling digital singles artist in the United States according to RIAA with a total of 59 million certified.[300] - grammar

Ultimately, I think the prose is quite choppy, with lots of "she X." "Gaga X." "Then she X." While it's certainly comprehensive and reasonably well written, the lack of sentence structure variety makes it almost read more like a list of her achievements than an encyclopedia entry. It needs some copyediting to this effect. ceranthor 01:26, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Ceranthor, for your comments as well as the few tweaks you made. I have addressed your more specific concerns and have left replies under some comments in green where necessary. Your point about the article reading somewhat "list-y" is completely understandable and reasonable, and we have tried to make the prose as interesting as we can. I will see what else I can do to make it seem less monotonous, although that is something that easily happens with articles of this sort. – FrB.TG (talk) 21:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to help. I'll be out of commission for a day or two, but I'll keep helping this weekend. ceranthor 22:36, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comment: I'm now very happy with the lead. What do you all think? ceranthor 20:56, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say the same :) Snuggums (talk / edits) 22:10, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaga aspires to revolutionize pop music as Madonna did.[173] - This statement is not supported by the linked reference. ceranthor 00:26, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
replaced FrB.TG (talk) 21:29, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some more suggestions:

  • In the musical style subsection, the flow gets disrupted in the second and third paragraphs by switching from album to album instead of just explaining everything about each album once at a time. ceranthor 17:54, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Rearranged. – FrB.TG (talk) 07:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So much better! ceranthor 00:46, 16 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • She has been often regarded as a trailblazer, sometimes utilizing controversy to bring attention to various issues.[271] - Need more than one citation for a claim like this
  • Gaga is credited as one of the front-runners of the rise in the popularity of synthpop in the late 2000s and early 2010s. - Don't think front runner is a good word choice here
  • and is considered a gay icon.[257] - should get multiple citations
  • She says that the song "Poker Face" was about her bisexuality. - this and the following sentences depart too abruptly from the preceding sentences in the paragraph
  • When Gaga appeared as a guest on The Ellen DeGeneres Show in May 2009, she praised DeGeneres for inspiring women and the gay community.[261] - not sure this is necessary to mention; I'm sure she's said this about other LGBTQIA leaders
All done, Ceranthor. – FrB.TG (talk) 19:55, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
FrB.TG I hope to read through this tonight, as I won't have much free time this weekend. ceranthor 21:22, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you aren't able to do this tonight, I can wait until next week. – FrB.TG (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to provide some more comments by tomorrow night! Have to be up early tomorrow morning. ceranthor 02:59, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for the delayed response! I will shoot to get to this again tonight. ceranthor 20:50, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So is the plan to go to FAC after this? @FrB.TG: ceranthor 02:23, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but even after this, it still could probably use polishing. I can't personally imagine it being submitted to FAC any sooner than October without failing. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:37, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on how the article shapes up. If it's improved enough, we'll take a trip to FAC. – FrB.TG (talk) 06:30, 25 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Any more comments, Ceranthor? – FrB.TG (talk) 15:40, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll schedule some time to look through tonight. ceranthor 15:06, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Started going through and copyediting sections. It's definitely come a long way, but I still think it's a bit premature to go to FAC yet prose-wise. It might help to recruit another pair of fresh eyes to go over and help copyedit since it's such a large article. ceranthor 22:23, 4 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaga was ranked as the second most-played artist of 2011 in the United Kingdom by the PPL.[89] - This seems abrupt and out of place. Either incorporate it into the paragraph above it, or delete it as a crufty factoid. ceranthor 19:41, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • She also continued her live appearances that year - reads very awkwardly
  • Televised appearances comprised her Thanksgiving television special - again, not sure what this means, and I've watched the special myself

I'm still working thru and copyediting. ceranthor 19:51, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed all three of the above, Ceranthor. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:09, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Sunday Times contributor Sarah Hajibageri and The Boston Globe writer Sarah Rodman once compared her music and fashion to Madonna and Gwen Stefani.[193][194] - What is this adding to the article, especially after a few sentences discuss the likening to Madonna in the section right above this?
Now up to public image. ceranthor 23:45, 5 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ArturSik[edit]

in the '2015-present' section it says she received Jane Ortner education award and in the 'awards and achievements' section it is artist award, i think it should be clarified which one it was that she received. ArturSik (talk) 21:09, 11 September 2017 (UTC).[reply]
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