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Grace Sherwood[edit]

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because those of us who have worked on it recently, User:Wehwalt, User:Montanabw, and myself would like a thorough, in-depth, review to ensure it meets wiki's high modern standards for FA level articles in all regards. We'd especially invite thorough close paraphrasing/copyvio reviews and copyediting.

Thanks, PumpkinSky talk 01:21, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Good story. Is her statue based on a contemporary image of her; or conjecture? Is the sculptor notable enough for an article? Why is the birthplace "possibly England" and not "possibly Scotland"? ("United Kingdom" may be better). Please add coordinates for locations such as her farm, the statue, Witchduck Road, etc. (these can be in footnotes if you wish). I've added some categories to the article. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:28, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Any image of her is conjecture. There is no known painting or drawing of her from her time, just written descriptios. I will change birthplace. Don't know how to get coords and while I know the area of the farm, it's exact location is not known to me.PumpkinSky talk 11:51, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Here you go: Wikipedia:Obtaining geographic coordinates. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure how many places you want coordinates for, but for example Sentara Bayside Hospital is at (36.868,-76.131) - pop those into Google Maps and you can see N Witchduck Road as the south boundary of the hospital. The statue is at (36.866,-76.132) and you can zoom in at those coordinates and see it on Google Maps. Following N Witchduck Road to the northeast brings you to Witch Duck Bay at (36.881,-76.117). Let me know if you want more. --RexxS (talk) 19:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Rexx! The statue is a little down the road from the north end of Witchduck Road, which ends at the point where the boat was rowed out to duck her. Witchduck Road is many miles long. The spot her farm and grave are on is now held by some nature conservancy and they have the police fine you if you try to get on the property, so I can only narrow down the location to within a few square miles. Plus people that know exactly where it is are not eager to give up the info. I'm trying to get a release for the photos of her house and grave, taken about 25 years ago. The farm and grave are within 1-2 square miles of the intersection of Princess Anne Road and Pungo Ferry Road, I'm fairly sure on the eastern side of PA Road at that intersection. That's not enough for an exact location, just close to it. Oh, and the house is now fallen down and the grave plowed and overgrown. PumpkinSky talk
36.866139,-76.131811 puts the map marker in satellite view dead on the statue. That's in the infobox. The bay coords are fine and in a efn note.PumpkinSky talk 21:53, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Zooming in on street view in Google Maps shows there's a sign about 40 feet to the west of the statute, right by the pavement on Independence Boulevard, "K 276 THE TESTING OF GRACE SHERWOOD" with some text that's too small for me to read. That's another item that's mentioned in your text - now we know what the title of the marker is! --RexxS (talk) 22:08, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd uploaded a pic of that historical marker, but it was deleted as non free 3 years ago.PumpkinSky talk 22:42, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding coordinates. To reiterate my other points:

  • Please make clear that the statue based on conjecture, not a contemporary image of the subject
    • That's in the body already, says no known real image of her exists or some such. PumpkinSky talk 17:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you can find out who it was modelled on, please add that
  • Consider making the sculptor's name a red link (or starting a stub article}
    • already looked at that. Not enough secondary source info on him for a stub. I've never seen the sense of making a red link in such as case PumpkinSky talk 17:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please clarify why the birthplace "possibly England" (where her father was born) and not "possibly Scotland" (where her mother was born). If it's not possible to do so, then "United Kingdom" may be better.
    • Agree with Wehwalt below, that's very tenuous. On a GOOD note, I will put in two more map coords later today. PumpkinSky talk 17:36, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Upon reference to the sources, I don't find the UK connection strongly supported, and so I've stricken it.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
United Kingdom would be anachronistic anyway, since the action in this article happens pre-1707.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:30, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Place of birth reads almost as if Princess Anne County was possibly in England ;)
  • Link Virginia the first time.
  • Witchcraft: can you reword the first sentence to not make it start with "That there were witches was taken for granted by the American colonists"? "The American colonists took ..."?

That's all I found, good reading! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I've done those, though a bit differently than suggested in one case.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:36, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added as hatnote.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:16, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note on spelling

  • Even in Virginia Beach, it's spelled both Witch Duck and Witchduck, but note the road is officially Witchduck Road.PumpkinSky talk 22:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton comments: This is the first section of a fairly detailed review which will probably spread over the next couple of days:

Lead
  • It's not a good idea to refer to her "final" trial before mentioning that she had previously been tried twice.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The second paragraph mentions her trials in 1697 and 1698 without referring to their outcome. How did these trials end? (The main text is not clear on this point either.) Presumably she remained at liberty, so you should not move straight from the 1698 trial to "Freed from her imprisonment..."
    • I've added detail to clarify this points to both the lead and body, plus added a new book ref. Pls review. PumpkinSky talk 00:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "recognizing her knowledge" → "in recognition of her knowledge"
Personal life
  • There is a fragment of broken reference following the words "from England"
  • "See Hume 2008 p. 85" needs to be made into a proper citation.
  • Also, something very odd has happened at the end of the first paragraph. Presumably this, too, is supposed to be a citation.
  • The information "White received a land grant in the Pungo area" needs elaboration. When, and from whom did he receive the grant? Was this the reason for his travelling to America?
I've deleted that.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that the invented legends about about Grace and her eggshell voyages, etc, belong in this part of the article. The section is headed "Personal information", and mixing these fantasies with factual information about family background, etc., is confusing.
Moved to a suitable point elsewhere.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:15, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "poor but respectable": the "but" implies that poverty is not normally respectable. I would make this "poor, respectable..."
  • "Forty percent of the landowners in the region owned less than 300 acres (120 ha)..." I think you mean less than 300 acres each; this has to be made clear, as does the 10% owning over 1000 acres each.
  • I think this section should be retitled "Family background", and end with the information "When James died in 1701, Grace inherited his property". The rest of the information belongs later in the article, either in the "Aftermath" or "Legacy"sections. Otherwise it is very disconcerting to the reader to be suddenly reading about Grace's death.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:10, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Witchcraft and Virginia
  • "As Virginians viewed religion as a private relationship with God..." This seems a very glib assertion - that all Virginians, as distinct from New Englanders and others, viewed their religion in this way. It may be more appropriate to say that religious fervour was less evident in Virginia, and perhaps indicate briefly why this was the case.
I've recast it in terms of the preaching.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The information in the second paragraph seems to be a continuation of the point made in the first paragraph (why New England was more prone to persecute suspected witches}, and the paragraphs would be better combined
I've tried to take the New England influence out of the second paragraph.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Virginia’s political and religious leaders chose to prosecute offenses they felt might threaten the social cohesion of the colony, such as fornication, gossip, and slander. They preferred to ignore those, such as witchcraft, that might tear it apart". Another bold assertion, offered without explanation. Why would Virginia's leaders choose to behave in this way?
Upon reference to the source, I do not see that the connection to witchcraft is explicitly stated, and I've deleted the sentence. The passage appeared to have been based on Newman, at p. 12, rather than the stated source. I still don't see it in full even there, though.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although few Virginia records survive from that era,[8] at most, only 19 witchcraft cases were brought there during the 17th century, all but one of which ended in acquittal". There seems to be a possible contradiction here. If few records survive, how can we know that "at most" there were only 19 cases brought to trial in the 17thC?
  • I'm not sure that the aboard-ship hanging of Katherine Grady is particularly relevant.
Struck.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last paragraph: "Sherwood appears to have been the only accused..." etc is premature and should be in the paragraph dealing with her trial

More tomorrow Brianboulton (talk) 20:04, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Up to date I think.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More:

Initial accusations
  • "The court issued no written conclusions": In plain language, does this mean that the court rejected the charges? This needs to be explicit.
    • Refs says "no findings". I've quoted the source. PumpkinSky talk 00:43, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...but the Sherwoods..." - more of an "and" than a "but" connection, I think
  • I am not a lawyer, but can a suit be dismissed "by mutual consent"? Surely it is only judicial authorities that can dismiss suits? I imagine that the intended meaning is that there was some out-of-court agreement between the disputing parties which led to the suit's withdrawal, and if so, the wording should be changed to clarify this.
After reference to the sources, I've tweaked to make it clear that the dismissal had the agreement of the parties, not that they dismissed it.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:02, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, the text is inexplicit about the outcome of the second hearing: "Sherwood was accused of bewitching her neighbor John Gisburne's hogs and cotton crop, and her husband initiated another action for defamation, which did not succeed."
    • Sherwood lost the Gisburne and Barnes suits. I've tried to clarify this. PumpkinSky talk 00:48, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why Sherwood's husband had to pay court related costs, particularly in the Barnes case where the charges read like an absurd fantasy.
    • It wasn't absurd to the people of the, to whom witchcraft was very real. The Newman ref has extensive detail on this. PumpkinSky talk 00:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Luke Hill's wife Elizabeth": who are these people? They have not been mentioned previously.
    • Refs only say they are neighbors, so I added that. PumpkinSky talk 00:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " This lawsuit stemmed from personal disputes between Sherwood and the Hills, in contrast to the earlier accusations against her, which sought to cast blame for misfortune". I can't follow this reasoning. The Hills were blaming Sherwood's witchcraft for causing a miscarriage - is this not casting blame for misfortune?
    • But it is fairly obvious it was retaliation for the fight which resulted in the Hill's paying damages to the Sherwoods. I'm open to rewording. I've cut the sentence. PumpkinSky talk
Final trial
  • I would drop the word "final" from the heading. The earlier "trials" – if indeed trials actually took place – were on different charges, and were not earlier stages in the same case. Since the section covers not only the trial but the sentece*A date should be provided at the beginning, rather than in the middle, of the first paragraph
Changed tentatively to "Ducking" but I imagine that may gather some objection.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The authorities empaneled two juries..." Which authorities? The legal structure within which this trial took place needs to be explained more clearly. I see later in the section reference to "the colonial authorities in Williamsburg", but no indication is given of the relationship between these authorities and the local court.
    • These cases were prosecuted on the county level, Princess Anne County. The county justices fell under the Virginia Colony's General Court. I've added "Princess Anne County" in front of "authorities". PumpkinSky talk 00:21, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why has "Sherwood" suddenly become "Grace"?
Changed.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fact that the trial took place "in the second Princess Anne County Courthouse, which had just been built in 1706" is somewhat trivial, and should be removed.
Removed.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is an early warden?
  • Further confusion: why is the prosecution being conducted by a churchwarden before a jury from Lynnhaven Parish Vestry? Is it necessary to list all these names? I am afraid I cannot follow the process here.
The names are deleted for both juries. Criminal procedure in Virginia in 1706 doesn't seem to bear much resemblance to the sort I am familiar with from the late 20th and early 21st centuries, so I'm not sure why.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At about 10 a.m...." On what date?
Dated.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:22, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...to John Harper's plantation near the mouth of the Lynnhaven River (now a private residence)" First, who is John Harper? Secondly, the sentence needs rewording to avoid the impression that the mouth of the Lynnhaven River is now a private residence.
  • Again, I wonder at the necessity of listing names – the attendant women in this case.
The jury's names shall be kept confidential (perhaps one will condescend to appear on CNN).--Wehwalt (talk) 23:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sherwood spat out under clear skies": Rephrase without the melodrama. This an encyclopedia article. This wording is only permissoble as part of a clearly attributed quotation.
Drama mellowed.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Several women who subsequently examined her for additional proof found "two things like titts on her private parts of a black coller", and she was jailed pending further proceedings. I assume that "coller" means "colour" (sorry, "color") and it might be as well to clarify this. Also, an "and" conjunction is inappropriate. Either replace "and" with a semicolon, or split into two sentences.
Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last two sentences of the section would be more appropriate elsewhere in the article, rather than as a tailpiece to the "trial" section.
Moved.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:20, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Aftermath
  • "an reason not specified"? Is there nothing in the sources that throws further light on this transaction, or explains how she could pay someone 600 pounds of tobacco (an enormous quantity, more than a quarter of a ton) while presumably incarcerated?
I have corrected the typo.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here's exactly what the source says. I can't decipher the old writing and abbreviations enough to answer the question: "Judgmt confest by Grace Sherrwood for paymt of 6001b tobo to Christor Cocke Due by an accomp & ordr that the Deft pay ye same to ye pl. with cost als Exco". suriving records only say the fine was assesed, not why nor if it was ever paid. I've tweaked the article. I can email someone the pdf file if they want it. PumpkinSky talk 00:03, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although the length of her term of imprisonment is not apparently known, may we presume that by 1714, when she was recovering and paying taxes on her property, she was a free woman again? It would be helpful if this was made clear.
As I understand it, after 1706, she appears in records only three times: the 1708 matter, the 1714 paying taxes and the proving of her will in 1740. She could have a judgment against her while imprisoned, but paying taxes pretty much requires being free. That's what the sources are telling us. We don't know.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:16, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Legacy
  • "a courtroom drama at Colonial Williamsburg" – do you mean "performed at Colonial Williamsburg"?
Fixed.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Governor of Virginia, Tim Kaine..." He is not the permanent governor. I'd reword this to: "During his term as governor of Virginia, Tim Kaine..." etc
I simply refer to him now as "Governor".--Wehwalt (talk) 23:04, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Danielle Sheets, co-biographer of Sherwood and co-author with Nash, Sheets' mother, played the part of Sherwood." I can't work this out.
    • Danielle Sheets is the daughter of Belinda Nash. Both are experts on Grace Sherwood. They co-authored the biography "A Place in Time: The Age of the Witch of Pungo". I've reworded this. Anyone feel free to further tweak. PumpkinSky talk 23:55, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "reportedly still appears" - reported by whom?

I would like to read through the article again, when the various outstanding fixes have been done – I did find the narrative quite muddled at times. Finally, can someone explain why the geographical coordinates of the Sherwood statue are thought to be "key information" requiring representation in the infobox, and indeed why three other sets of coordinates are thought to be necessary in the text, for other locations all in very close proximity?

Andy asked for geo coords. There are two close together and two others further away. I'm not tied to having them in or not having them in. Either way is fine with me. PumpkinSky talk 22:47, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't be bothered if the statue's coordinates were moved from the infobox into the body of the article (though if the gravesite were located, its coordinates should be in the infobox). By including coordinates for places mentioned, we make it possible for people to find those locations in online mapping services; either so that they can visit, or so that they can see them using online services like Google Maps' satellite view or its rivals. They can also be downloaded as a set, and used n other software, or tools such as satnavs. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done now. Brianboulton (talk) 22:35, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Final thoughts:

I have read through the article again, and made a few minor fixes to the text as I went along. These can be checked in the edit history. The following are my outstanding concerns; they are mainly minor points for clarity or prose flow, though I am still unhappy with the "Initial accusations" section, as indicated below:

  • "she was said to be tall, very attractive, and humorous" – said by whom? Should this read, say, "she was described in contemporary accounts as tall, very attractive, and humorous…"?
Clarified.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pants" is not a good word to use here. In the UK it means underwear.
Trousered.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "unusual-for-the-time" is a very clumsy made-up adjective. Suggest replace with "unconventional"
Omitted instead. "unconventional" is used in close proximity, which was the issue.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The southeastern corner of Virginia, present-day Norfolk and Virginia Beach, saw more accusations of witchcraft than other areas." It should be made clear that Pungo is in this region of Virginia – otherwise this information doesn't seem relevant to this narrative.
Inserted.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Re the "Initial accusations" section: rather than come up with a further list of questions and quibbles, I have redrafted the section in a way which I think clarifies points which are not clear in the present prose. Please consider this:
Sherwood was first charged with witchcraft in a court case held on March 3, 1697, in which Richard Capps alleged that she had caused the death of his bull with a spell. The court made no decision on this charge;[1] the Sherwoods then filed a defamation suit against Capps that was discontinued when the parties came to an agreement.[30] In 1698, Sherwood was accused by her neighbor John Gisburne of bewitching his hogs and cotton crop. No court action followed this accusation, and another action for defamation by the Sherwoods also failed.. In the same year Elizabeth Barnes, wife of Anthony Barnes, alleged that Sherwood had assumed the form of a black cat, entered Barnes' home, jumped over her bed, drove and whipped her, and left via the keyhole. Again the allegation was unresolved, and again the subsequent defamation action was lost. For each of the failed actions Sherwood and her husband had to pay court related costs.[1][11][30]
In 1705, Sherwood was involved in a fight with her neighbor, Elizabeth Hill.[31] Sherwood sued Hill and her husband for assault and battery, and on December 7, 1705 was awarded damages of twenty pounds sterling.[4] On January 3, 1706, the Hills accused Grace Sherwood of witchcraft, although she failed to answer the charge in court.[32] On February 7, 1706, the court ordered her to appear on a charge of having bewitched Elizabeth Hill, causing a miscarriage.[27]
  • My point about starting what is now the "Ducking" section with a date, for narrative continuity purposes, does not seem to be addressed. However, the narrative picks up considerably in this section and generally reads well.
It has been now.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are perhaps a few too many images cluttering this part of the article. The "Modern farmland" pic could easily go; I would enlarge the Witch Duck Bay image, and would shift it over to the left.
  • Aftermath: It might be a good idea to preface the statement: "In 1714, she paid back taxes..." with something like: "She appears to have been released some time in or before 1714, as in that year she paid back taxes..."
  • "One legend says that her sons put her body near the fireplace and a wind came down the chimney and her body disappeared amid the embers, with the only clue being a cloven hoofprint." Needs revising to get rid of the double "and". I would begin "According to legend..." rather than "One legend says"
Played with.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:58, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I can live with whatever you decide to do about the coordinates. The odd lead tweak might be advisable, but I am too tired to look at this at the moment. Brianboulton (talk) 23:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cut one coord. FA Ezra Meeker has coords in the info box. PumpkinSky talk 02:17, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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