Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of prime ministers of Italy/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 21 April 2022 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of prime ministers of Italy[edit]

List of prime ministers of Italy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Nick.mon (talk) 20:41, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

When I first edited this article on March 2012, the list had a plenty of problems: a lot of work has been done during these 9 years and I sincerely believe the list has been improved so much. Some months ago, I submitted to you a first candidacy and you rightly rejected it. Now, I've corrected those errors and, in my humble opinion, the list now meets all the criteria to be considered a FL. Thank you for your attention, Nick.mon (talk) 20:41, 11 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments on the lead
  • No article should start with "This article contains...."
 Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Benito Mussolini formally modified the office title with" => "Benito Mussolini formally modified the office title to"
 Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That sentence is unsourced
 Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Since 1946, 29 men assumed the office in 75 years" => "Since 1946, 29 men have assumed the office in 75 years"
 Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead overall seems a bit thin. There must be more to mention eg the longest-serving PM, the shortest-serving, other notable facts.....
 Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's it on the lead, I will look at the rest later..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:23, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)[edit]

  • Tables need captions, which allow screen reader software to jump straight to named tables without having to read out all of the text before it each time. Visual captions can be added by putting |+ caption_text as the first line of the table code; if that caption would duplicate a nearby section header, you can make it screen-reader-only by putting |+ {{sronly|caption_text}} instead.
 Done --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tables need column scopes for all column header cells, which in combination with row scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Column scopes can be added by adding !scope=col to each header cell, e.g. ! width=1% rowspan=2| Portrait becomes !scope=col width=1% rowspan=2| Portrait.
 Done --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tables need row scopes on the "primary" column for each row, which in combination with column scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Row scopes can be added by adding !scope=row to each primary cell, e.g. ! 1 becomes !scope=row | 1.
 Done --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. --PresN 13:16, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments on the tables and refs
  • Can you split the key into multiple columns so that it doesn't extend so far down the page?
 Done by Nick.mon. --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Small text should not be used
 Partly done: increased size of term duration. I see that also other featured list articles like List of chancellors of Germany or List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom use small text in the tables. --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Below each PM's name you have dates for born-died, but below each king's name you have dates which (I presume) indicate his reign. Can you make the latter clearer, because at first glance I thought that Victor Emmanuel II died aged 17......?
 Done --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes b to g are not full sentences so should not have full stops
 Done by Nick.mon. --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do most refs have retrieval dates but some do not?
 Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:54, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is " Denis Mack Smith, Cavour (1985)."? A book? A journal?
 Fixed it is a book. --Yakme (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Surely there's a better source for the first PM than yourdictionary.com.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
☒N Removed -- Nick.mon (talk) 08:46, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Ok thank you, I've tried to solve some of these problems. -- Nick.mon (talk) 23:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ping me when everything is sorted and I will re-visit :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:40, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: ok, I think everything is sorted! :) -- Nick.mon (talk) 22:49, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Comment: What about the references column? I think it might be removed. Since all the 100+ references are just links to pages of the same archive website [2], it think it might be sufficient to add a link to the homepage of this website, e.g. in a last row in both tables. Furthermore, other featured list articles like List of chancellors of Germany do not show such references column in their tables. --Yakme (talk) 23:44, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Simply using the frontpage of storia.camera.it as a single "source" would absolutely not be acceptable in a FL as the frontpage by itself does not reference any of the info in the tables. List of chancellors of Germany was promoted more than three years ago and I don't think would pass FLC in its current form -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:46, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: For the Republican period, I found this link which contains all the governments, and also links to each specific government where one can find more details. --Yakme (talk) 17:02, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just leave the references as they currently are? There's nothing wrong with them...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: Hi! So, what do you think, doest the list fit with the FL criteria? :) -- Nick.mon (talk) 09:28, 23 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: Hi Chris! Any news? :) -- Nick.mon (talk) 09:05, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

About......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: About the candidacy. I mean, I remember that in the previous one, many users answered, what can I do to re-start the discussion? -- Nick.mon (talk) 09:09, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You could contact other users who commented before and ask them to take a look at this one. Are there any appropriate Wikiprojects where you could invite people to come and take a look? WP:ITALY? WP:POLITICS? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:12, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thank you! -- Nick.mon (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@RunningTiger123, Reywas92, and Aza24: Excuse me for pinging you here, but some months ago you commented the first candidacy of this page. During these months, I followed your suggestions and I sincerly believe that it's ready to become a FL now. I'd be glad to hear your opinions. Thank you so much! -- Nick.mon (talk) 09:20, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments below. RunningTiger123 (talk) 15:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by RunningTiger123[edit]

  • Images need alt text
  • "non consecutively" → "non-consecutively"
  • "who served as Prime Minister" → "who served as prime minister"
  • A single row should only have one cell with ! scope="row", as having multiple row headers doesn't make sense
  • Key needed for abbreviations in "Composition" column (i.e., what are "UL", "PR", "UECI", and so on?)
  • Small text should be avoided as much as possible – at the very least, it does not need to be used in the "Time in office" and "Composition" columns
  • Much of the information for the "Party" and "Composition" columns seems to be unsourced. For example, source 15 clearly states the start and end dates, and it makes it clear that it was the fourth Cavour government, but I don't see any information about the parties leading the government. Most of the sources from storia.camera.it use the same format, so it's an issue throughout the list. Where is this information sourced from?

— RunningTiger123 (talk) 15:45, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi RunningTiger123, thanks for your comment. I've a few doubts about the key for the "Composition" column. There're dozens of parties involved in Italian governments, throughout 160 years of history, how can we create a key for all of them? Sorry, but I fear it's almost impossibile and in my humble opinion the table would look awful. Regarding the small text, we already reduced it a lot, and to be honest, it's used in some others FL in the "time in office" rows, like List of prime ministers of the United Kingdom. I'll try to found some better sources for the parties. -- Nick.mon (talk) 11:54, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the key: WP:PLA states that we should "avoid Easter egg links, which require the reader to open them before understanding what's going on." If the user has to click the link to see what party is being discussed, we're not following that. Some of the abbreviations could be grouped with the existing key; for instance, you could write   Christian Democracy (DC) instead of just   Christian Democracy.
Regarding the small text: Many of the lists with small text were promoted to FL status a while ago and do not reflect current standards. (For instance, the list of UK prime ministers was promoted over 15 years ago.) MOS:FONTSIZE makes it clear that "reduced or enlarged font sizes should be used sparingly", and in this case, I don't see a good reason for using it; the smaller text in the "Time in office" and "Composition" columns doesn't make the table appreciably narrower, so I don't know why it needs to remain. RunningTiger123 (talk) 16:58, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Reywas92[edit]

  • "During this period" What period? This hasn't been introduced yet
  • "both branches of Parliament"->"both houses of Parliament"
  • Is "Government of National Unity" the appropriate term to use in this context? The capital letters imply a proper noun. Ricasoli II Cabinet says it was called Government of National Reconciliation. Boselli and Orlando had large coalitions but they don't appear to be "national unity".

Beyond the comments above, otherwise pretty nice! Reywas92Talk 04:20, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Reywas92:  Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 11:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd add I don't think the legislature and monarch/president columns should have the !, which is for row headers. Otherwise support, thanks for your improvements from before! Any comment at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/National preserve/archive1 would be appreciated as well. Reywas92Talk 17:02, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • "as expressed in the Albertine Statute", This sounds a bit odd to me. How about "as laid down in the Albertine Statute"?
  • "The current officeholder is Mario Draghi". This will become out of date. It should be "As of February 2022, the current officeholder is Mario Draghi".
  • I think you need a section above the table explaining the headings. 'Party' is presumably that of the prime minister as opposed to 'composition' being that of the cabinet, but this should be explained. 'Government' is misleading as most articles only cover a list of the cabinet. Legislatures links to articles about general elections. 'Cabinet' and 'General election' would be more accurate headings.
  • Starting with Cavour at IV and legislature at VIII seems odd and not explained in the articles linked to. Maybe it refers to Sardinia but there is no continuity with the rest of Italy.
    •  Done, The first government of the Kingdom of Italy is officially known as Cavour IV, while the first legislature is the VIII. I know it sounds weird, but I've tried to explain it with footnotes. -- Nick.mon (talk) 13:37, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article looks fine apart from the headings. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:52, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick.mon: Did you see the last set of comments? Are you still pursuing this nomination? --PresN 16:13, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nick.mon nudge. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 10:41, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've already updated the page, I'm just trying to figure out how to solve the "Party / Coalition" section. -- Nick.mon (talk) 10:58, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've fixed it. -- Nick.mon (talk) 15:24, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:52, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TRM[edit]

  • I have a natural dislike of single sentence paragraphs. I think you could/should" merge the first two paras of the lead.
  • "officeholder was Camillo Benso, Count of Cavour, who took the office " officeholder ... took the office is repetitive.
  • "unification of Italy" is there an article for this we could link?
  • "the King of Italy, as" vs "The prime minister of Italy" why the inconsistent capitalisation of job titles?
  • "abolishment" reads odd, even if it might be right, why isn't it simply abolition?
  • "the Italian Republic" could link.
  • "is currently" see WP:ASOF.
  • Might be worth noting that not one single woman has ever held the office.
  • "who stayed in power for more than nine years non-consecutively" stayed ... non-consecutively is odd for me. Perhaps "who held the position ..." or something.
  • I assume † means died in office but that's not in the key. Check you're using alt text for the {{dagger}} symbol too.
  • E.g. in Giolitti's entry, it says "with PSI's external support", but where is that in the reference? Similar comment applies to all such notes.
  • The abbreviations, such as PSI, PDSI, all need to be added in a key, not just rely on the wikilinks.
    • The problem here is that we have dozens of parties involved in Italian goverments. I'll try to do something to add them to the key, but I sincerly think it would be quite confusing. -- Nick.mon (talk) 07:12, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    •  Done -- Nick.mon (talk) 07:42, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs 6 and 8 have spaced hyphens, should be unspaced per MOS.
  • Third biblio entry needs an en-dash in the year range.

That's all I have for now. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 17:05, 21 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick.mon: Are you still working on this nomination? --PresN 00:06, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --PresN 20:23, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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