Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of USAF Test Pilot School alumni/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:The Rambling Man 07:55, 9 August 2008 [1].

List of USAF Test Pilot School alumni[edit]

I would like to submit this list of notable graduates of the USAF TPS, created in the same style as List of Medal of Honor recipients for the Battle of Iwo Jima. The list has many wikilinks on each line which is not in keeping with MOS, but it seems popular with lists of people, perhaps because each person in the list is unique and not necessarily related to the others. Having wikilinks on each line does allow a reader who is interested in a particular person to more easily access an element in that person's life rather than hunt through the list for the previous wikilink, although at the expense of potential distraction. I am curious to read the opinion of the reviewers on this issue. Skeet Shooter (talk) 00:26, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it looks pretty good but I do have a couple suggestions.
1. Create articles for th persons listed with red links.
2. Is this a complete list of notable alumni and what makes them notable?
  • I think so, but it depends on how one interprets WP:BIO. All the astronauts and four star generals are included, but there are a number of two and three star generals (who don't currently have Wiki biographies) I think could be added. There are also a few who received professional awards (but don't currently have Wiki bios) that should probably be included. I plan to work on these although they may not be notable enough for Wiki. Skeet Shooter (talk) 11:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
3. Some of the list rows have refeences and some don't, recommend adding inline citations for the rest.
  • Per WP:CITE, I added references to items that were likely to be challenged. The individual articles on the astronauts and generals are well documented so I didn't provide separate citations for them in the list. The articles on flight test pioneers varied a great deal—some were stubs or had "citation needed" tags. These are the ones for which I included separate references in the list. I can add references to all the list members, but it seemed unnecessary when access to the reference is available by clicking on the person's article. Thank you for your comments! Skeet Shooter (talk) 11:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does a list need to stand alone with respect to references/citations or is it acceptable to wikilink to the article which provides the detailed references/citations? Standing alone is good in a sense, but it seems to needlessly duplicate info which is bad from an article maintenance standpoint. Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

--Kumioko (talk) 02:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Military leader criteria for inclusion unclear and not stated in article. Articles mentions that they encourage foreign students - but none are included in the list. Aren't any of them notable? Rmhermen (talk) 22:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response: Criteria for all sections based on WP:BIO and WP:MILMOS#NOTE, and I will add this. I included all the TPS four-star generals, and two colonels who were notable for actions other than flight test. Should I break this section into two? I think there are several lower-ranking generals that might be included, but I decided not add them until I could create Wiki biographies for them. Surprisingly, I've had no luck finding notable foreign students. Skeet Shooter (talk) 00:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done (updated list to reflect WP:BIO and WP:MILMOS#NOTE use in selection of notable alumni. Does this address your concerns? Thanks.) Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:10, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • After reviewing WP:LISTV, I think inclusion in this list is based on two areas: a) graduating from the TPS, which is reliably verified by the TPS book in the references (and less reliably by the Wiki articles of the subjects); and b) notability, which is verified by WP:MILMOS#NOTE and the fact that all subjects but four have Wiki articles. Perhaps I am just not understanding the issue. Help please... Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:32, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the mention of the criteria is good (although I think the criteria is much looser in fact than the way you are actually applying it here - so others may want to add more names under those criteria.) Rmhermen (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. There are a number of names I would like to add, but I thought it appropriate to create articles for these individuals first rather than putting too many "red links" in the list. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
New comment: This line has difficulties: "Many TPS graduates were selected for the U.S. space program and others earned astronaut's wings by flying in the X-15, Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle programs". Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle programs are part of the U.S. space program, not of "others". Either "others" should be removed as X-15 was a U.S. space program (It doesn't say a NASA program) or "Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle programs" should be removed (less correct). The only other possibility I can imagine is that a TPS graduate flew only in the Russian space program but I don't know if there are any examples of that - and the sentence doesn't mention that. Rmhermen (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. The intent was to show that a group of astronaut-trained TPS grads were selected for the space program and a subset of that group went on to earn astronaut wings by flying in space. I have rephrased the sentences to reflect that. Thanks. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I always like the ones I can relate to.. Edwards AFB is just up the road from me.

I really enjoyed the time I lived at EAFB years ago and southern California is still a very nice place (San Diego is home now). Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in Lancaster. San Diego would be nicer! :) Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you should say where the Test Pilot School is, and provide some background information about Edwards (the base, not the man). It's rather important, for example, that there is only one School in the entire nation
 Done. But don't forget the United States Naval Test Pilot School in Maryland. Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:03, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wasn't aware of that. Perhaps it could be mentioned that there is a test pilot school for the navy?
 Not done. Since I had already wikilinked EAFB when I addressed your first comment. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't force bold text. notable alumni isn't necessary
 Done. I thought bold in first sentence was per WP:MOS, but does your comment indicate the text isn't the full name of the article? Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Right. The bold text would be The United States Air Force Test Pilot School alumni, which would mean recasting the first sentence and removing the wikilink. Per WP:BOLDTITLE, the bold part shouldn't be linked, and if only part of is bolded, or the bold parts are separated by wikilinks or plain text, then the bold title is forced. If it doesn't come naturally, it doesn't have to be bolded.
 Done. But such a link goes to a redirect. Somewhere I thought I read that should be avoided, but I can't find the reference now. Skeet Shooter (talk)
But you should also use whole words rather than abbreviations on their first use. It's a bit of a balancing act. Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change the header from "Listed by claim to fame" to "List of alumni". Claim to fame borders on WP:WEASEL for me
 Done. I had borrowed this from List of United States Military Academy alumni but I agree your wording is better. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Make a subheading ===Key=== for the bit before the actual lists
 Done Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:35, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
 Done Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Instead of

      This along with the * (asterisk), indicates that the individual was killed in a work-related (aviation) accident.

    you can do

      *   Individual was killed in a work-related (aviation) accident.

    Small text should rarely be used due to WP:ACCESS, and "this along with this" isn't encyclopedic in tone
 Done Skeet Shooter (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't mind having redlinks in the list. It encourages readers to create the missing articles, and just because no one has created a WP article yet, doesn't mean they're not notable.
Agreed. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't say "website" in the references, as in "Nova website" or "Air Force Link web site"
 Done. Skeet Shooter (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref [10] say "On date September 27, 1956" Is this when it was written?
Milestones in Aerospace History at Edwards AFB by Young is a PDF which has no page numbers. Instead, it lists events by dates, and September 27, 1956 is the date Mel Apt became the first to exceed Mach 3. I couldn't find how to properly reference a document that has no page numbers, but I wanted to provide some way for the reader to find the section on Mel Apt. Skeet Shooter (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref [14] has no page number
My intent was to provide a reference to show that Pete Everest was the subject and co-author of The Fastest Man Alive, so the reference pointed to the entire book (no page numbers). It does look a bit odd, especially since I couldn't find an ISBN number for the book. Please let me know if there is a preferred way to deal with this situation. Skeet Shooter (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref [3] uses "pages 3–4", but others use "p."
 Done. Replaced with "pp. 3–4" Skeet Shooter (talk) 02:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to use {{cite web}} and its equivalents
  • If each entry is notable, each entry should have a reference
  • If you do that, then I think a ref column would be a good addition

Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More

  • You could link to Mojave Desert, Southern California or Kern County, just to provide a little more context to readers.
  • Could you change "CA" to "California" in the image caption, please?
  • With regards to 60A, being the first class in 1960 - is this how the School has named its classes, or is it how you've put it together? If it's the latter, it's WP:OR. I'm just concerned because it's the only one without a reference.

Matthew Edwards (talk • contribs • email) 17:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    • I'd like to see (AFB) after Air Force Base so non-experts know what AFB is on subsequent use.
    • I think the lead could be expanded - WP:LEAD would suggest at least two paras.
    • "twenty-six " = 26
    • I would link NASA in the lead.
    • Because this doesn't contain all alumni, there ought to be a statement of scope.
    • Borman's caption shouldn't end with a full stop. MOS says if one complete sentence in a caption then all sentences, including fragments, should have full stops so check the other captions.
    • "First female pilot and first female commander of a Space Shuttle" reads a little odd, could be taken she was the first female pilot and then the first female commander of a space shuttle - i guess you mean she was the first female pilot and then commander of a space shuttle? Also her entry in the table doesn't mention her being the first female commander.
    • I don't like blank cells - perhaps civilian ranks could have an em-dash (with appropriate key) to indicate that they didn't have a rank.
    • James M. Taylor has no article, seems a shame, not even a stub if he's notable enough to be on this list? And the other two...
    • Oh, and rank - does that mean current rank or rank when they left their respective force? Perhaps some of these alumni are still employed and their rank could change?
    • What does "(Faith 7)" mean?
    • With lists which have two or more tables with identical columns, I'd prefer to see them made the same width from table to table.
    • "BGen. Robert Cardenas, USAF. YB-49 flying wing" - he wasn't a YB-49, presumably he was a test pilot for that platform?
    • Bong, is he best ace ever? I'm not sure. I think his picture is probably more appropriate here, as well.
    • With the heading "pioneers" - I'd definitely talk about this in the lead, what you mean by that and who's included.
    • Not clear why your first, third and fourth references are in bold.
    • Instead of "pages", "pp." will do.
    • What exactly is AWOH?
    • "pages 207-208." - "pp. 207–8"
    • "482 mph " convert this for our metric friends.
    • NASM should be expanded.
  • The Rambling Man (talk) 16:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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