Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/CMLL World Mini-Estrella Championship/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 01:50, 24 August 2009 [1].

CMLL World Mini-Estrella Championship[edit]

Nominator(s):  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  06:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured list because I feel that it is up to the standards of the FL requirements, including the recently added "Redlink" criteria (I've created 10 out of the 11 articles since the requirement was brought up). It's part of my drive to make a "Featured Topic" of all CMLL Championships. Hopefully I've incorporated all the feedback from previous FLs to make this the best one yet (fingers crossed). Thanks in advance.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  06:10, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • DAB Tool is down but I'm 99.99% sure I don't have any DABs anyway.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  06:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are only two redlinks left and they're not in the actual list, but I plan on turning them blue within the next two weeks as well to make it a "true blue" list.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  12:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "A "Mini" is not necessarily a person with dwarfism like North American midget professional wrestling"-->"A "Mini" is not necessarily a person with dwarfism, as in North American midget professional wrestling"
  • "Being a professional wrestling championship " Comma after here.
  • "The Championship was created in 1992 and is the oldest still active Mini-Estrellas title in Mexico, both the Mexican National Mini-Estrella Championship and the AAA World Mini-Estrella Championship were created after CMLL" Remove "still" and change the comma to a semicolon.
  • "championship as it's focal point" No apostrophe in "it's".
  • "The first champion was Mascarita Sagrada " Comma after here.
  • "to form his own promotion" Comma after here.
  • "With Mascarita Sagrada gone from the promotion the title was vacant until September 1992 where Orito won the title in a decision match against El Felinito. "-->After Mascarita Sagrada left the promotion, the title was vacant until September 1992, when Orito won the title in a decision match against El Felinito. I don't suppose there's a link for "decision match"?
  • Fixed and decision match is when there is just one match, not a tournament - I removed the term from the text.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  13:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1999 it was decided to move the championship off then champion Damiancito el Guerrero and give it to Ultimo Dragoncito without an actual match taking place, a so called "Phantom title switch". "-->In 1999, in a a so-called "Phantom title switch", then-champion Damiancito el Guerrero had his championship [title?] stripped and given to Ultimo Dragoncito without a match taking place.
  • "over a year" Prefer "more than" a year.
  • "he is also the wrestler to hold the title"-->he is also the wrestler to have held the title
  • "amount of time, 110 days"-->amount of time, at 110 days
  • "and the only champion to vacate the title"-->and the only champion to have vacated the title
  • "The current champion is Bam Bam, having defeated Pequeño Damián 666 for the title on July 27, 2008."-->The current champion is Bam Bam, whod defeated Pequeño Damián 666 for the title on July 27, 2008.
  • "It is Bam Bam's first championship reign, he" Make the comma a semicolon.
  • "Only one wrestler has held the title twice, Ultimo Dragoncito; while Pequeño Olimpico has held the title the longest of any champion, 1,442 days."-->One wrestler has held the title twice, Ultimo Dragoncito, and Pequeño Olimpico has held the title the longest of any champion, at 1,442 days.
  • Image caption: "Mascarita Sagrada, the first ever CMLL World Mini-Estrella champion" Remove "ever".
  • Can you center the em dashes in the cells? It looks neater. Use {{center}} if necessary.
  • It would also be nice if you could center the columns that contain only numbers.
  • I originally did all pure number columns as centered, until it was commented that it should be consistent through out and I really hate the "all centered" wrestling tables so I went back to everything being left aligned, is there a guideline that states that "all-number" columns should be centered even if the text is not? cause then I got something to call on if anyone makes a comment about the mixed alignments. I don't mind changing it, but I only feel like changing it once, not back and forth ya know?  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  13:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "CMLL Held a tournament" "Held" should not be capitalized.
  • "determine the first ever CMLL World Mini-Estrellas Champion"
  • "Champion, the semi-finals"-->Champion; the semi-finals Dabomb87 (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:52, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Two inconsistencies in the print refs:
    • Denotation of pages. For some, you use "p./pp.", while for others there are no abbreviations at all.
      • Well there were a couple I had actually forgotten the page numbers, which is why it didn't looks the same, I fixed it.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  13:31, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Dashes for page ranges. Use an en dash (–). Right now, you have an em dash in ref 1 and a hyphen in ref 6. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • "it can also be very short wrestlers who works in the Mini division." This should be led into with a semi-colon, not a comma; also, make "works" singular.
  • "the title was vacant until September 1992, when Orito won the title in a match against El Felinito." Little repetition with "title".
  • Multiple Mascarita Sagrada links aren't necessary in the lead. Giants2008 (17–14) 22:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Took care of the last remaining grammar issue myself because it wasn't worth holding up support over. Similar in quality to the many other recent wrestling title FLs. Giants2008 (17–14) 23:09, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note FLC is currently short of reviewers; please consider reviewing one or more on the nomination list if you have not already (this message is being posted to all running FLCs). Dabomb87 (talk) 23:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Will
  • Support: all seems fine.--WillC 10:08, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resloved comments from Will
  • "The Championship was created in 1992 and is the oldest active Mini-Estrellas title in Mexico" De-cap "Championship".--WillC 01:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were created after CMLL created their Mini-Estrella championship" A bit redundant, change to "were introduced after CMLL created their Mini-Estrella championship"--WillC 01:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on March 1, 1992, defeating Espectrito" → "on March 1, 1992 by defeating Espectrito"--WillC 01:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)'[reply]
  • Everything else seems fine.--WillC 01:42, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose
    • You use AAA as an abbreviation before you explain what it means.
    • " in a a so-called " one too many "a"s there.
    • "regular sized" should that be hyphenated?
    • "first Mini-Estrellas champion" should that be "Estrella champion"?
      • The title is named "Mini-Estrellas" so it shouldn't be sigular.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  22:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Then is this list incorrectly titled? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:41, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • I read your comment wrong, it's name right the text is wrong and I will fix
    • "One wrestler has held the title twice, Ultimo Dragoncito, and..." - replace "and" with "while" perhaps, because it currently reads a little odd.
    • Why is there a subsection 3.1 when there's no subsection 3.2?
    • Are location and Event really needed in the table? The only two times they're different you could add a Note.
    • The + explanation in the key has a full stop, the other "meaning"s don't...
    • "Championship tournaments" section is a little odd for me. I don't think we need the graphic, you can state what happened in prose.
      • It's standard tournament brackets often used for wrestling tournaments, I don't see the harm in the format, prose could be added if you'd like.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  22:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • That section is also unreferenced.
    • "General source on the title until 2000" - what does this mean?
      • It means that the source listed covers the general title history up through 1999, or until 2000 as stated. it's instead of citing it 20 times.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  22:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Rambling Man (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco
Weak Oppose from Truco (talk · contribs)
General
  • There is a self-redirect to the article; don't know whether its intentional or not.
  • It links to the tournament section I figured it was alright.
  • Alt text and external links check out fine.
  • Is the term "Minis" officially endorsed by CMLL?
  • Minis is a term that's use in Lucha Libre in general including CMLL.
Lead
  • The CMLL World Mini-Estrella Championship (Campeonato Mundial Mini-Estrella de CMLL in Spanish) is a professional wrestling championship promoted by the Mexican Lucha Libre wrestling-based promotion Consejo Mundial de Lucha Libre (CMLL; Spanish for "World Wrestling Council"). -- A)Lucha Libre in Mexican Lucha Libre should be Lucha libre
  • A "Mini" is not necessarily a person with dwarfism, as in North American midget professional wrestling; it can also be very short wrestlers who work in the Mini division. -- Is there not a height limit for the broad term of "short"?
  • IMO it would be helpful if you stated that ever since the division was created there have been no wrestlers over the height of "#'#".--Truco 503 17:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't state that, I don't have a source on the definitive maximum size of someone billed as a Mini, I know the tallest champion but not the tallest Mini.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  17:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see, I just feel that "short wrestlers" is too broad. But okay.--Truco 503 22:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree that it's vague, sadly that's a reflection of how "strict" CMLL is with their divisions (weight as well).  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  22:35, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • When the creator of CMLL's Minis division, Antonio Peña, left CMLL to form his own promotion, Asistencia Asesoría y Administración, Mascarita Sagrada and a large number of other Minis left CMLL to join AAA. -- Use the AAA acronym here in both instances.
  • Being a professional wrestling championship, it is not won legitimately; it is instead won via a scripted ending to a match or awarded to a wrestler because of a storyline. -- I just noticed this, but I think a pipelink to Professional wrestling match types is needed on the word "match"
  • Yeah, but some people might want to know more about the "match" itself.--Truco 503 17:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • From that point forward the title has not been vacated again. -- How about Since then, the title has not been vacated. or The title has not been vacated since then.?
  • In 1999, in a so-called "Phantom title switch", then-champion Damiancito el Guerrero had the championship stripped and given to Ultimo Dragoncito without a match taking place. -- Who calls it a "Phantom title switch"?
  • Then what's the point of saying so-called??--Truco 503 17:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well for non-wrestling fans it's not like it's a common term it's "so called" in the wrestling venacular.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  17:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first Mini-Estrella champion was Mascarita Sagrada; he is also the wrestler to have held the title the shortest amount of time, at 110 days, and the only champion to have vacated the title. -- Since you already stated he was the champion before, its really repetitive to mention it again..instead how about In addition to being the first champion, Mascarita Sagrada is the only wrestler to....etc. [remember what I told you in previous FLC's about the pronoun usage of "[name of title] Champion]" or "[name of title] Championship"
  • Ultimo Dragoncito is the only wrestler to hold the title twice, , while Pequeño Olimpico has held the title the longest of any champion, at 1,442 days.[4][5] -- Extra comma not needed
List
Note
  • Remove the link to the AAA and mention it in its acronym form; already in lead
  • Instead of "left promotion" -> "left CMLL"
Tournament
  • I feel this should come first in the TOC, or at least under the "Title History" section like ==Title history== then ===Tournament=== then ===Reigns===
  • I don't quite understand. It would better if you had the Tournament first since that's what came first in the history of the title, then the reigns themselves which followed the tournament.--Truco 503 17:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would disagree, it's already mentioned how the first champion is crowned, then the title history and finally some details on the tournament that's not really necessary for the lead.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  17:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I hope you know that I'm talking about the section headers right? Not the lead. Take a look:
==Title history==
===1992 CMLL World Mini-Estrella tournament===
===Reigns===
==Reigns by combined length==
==Footnotes==
==References==--Truco 503 22:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The tables will still follow each other, the thing is its really random how the tournament is at the bottom of the article.--Truco 503 02:45, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not trying to be dificult here, but to me the general title history is the main point of the article, which is why I think that the title history list should be the first thing presented after the intro, I haven't seen a single title history where tournament brackets come before the title history.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  13:33, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here's the thing, however, this list is about the championship itself as well and not just the list of reigns. So the article should be arranged chronologically, like it is introduced in the lead. --Truco 503 19:53, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • So if the title was vacated tomorrow it would go "tournament 1 / Reings / Combined reigns / tornament 2" - Title histories should be generally uniform in layout, especially within the same federation and not every title history has a tournament to crown the first champion, what if the tournament was for the 3rd or 5th reign? By your logic it should break the list up.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  00:15, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll let this go.--Truco 503 03:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Footnotes
  • Because Ultimo Dragoncito had more than one reign, you should denote which reign this was.
References
  • The specific refs title is missing.--Truco 503 03:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nope it's not, the title of the book is "Wrestling Title Histories", the chapter is "Mexico: EMLL CMLL Midget (miniestrella) Title" and the page is "396", all of which is there.  MPJ-DK  (No Drama) Talk  07:10, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- Previous issues resolved/clarified; list now meets WP:WIAFL.--Truco 503 03:22, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Dabomb, Giants, and Truco's reviews. iMatthew talk at 20:41, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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