Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ulf Merbold/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 19 November 2022 [1].

Ulf Merbold[edit]

Nominator(s): —Kusma (talk) 22:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about my childhood hero: West Germany's first astronaut. After the article passed GA in April, it has seen further extension and a thorough GOCE copyedit followed by another extension round that hopefully hasn't messed too much with the copyeditor's good work. The article isn't super long but I still believe it to be reasonably comprehensive (and more details about each of the space flights should probably be added to articles about those, not to biographies of the participants). Sadly, I am nominating this too late for the page's original author (Ahoerstemeier) to participate. —Kusma (talk) 22:19, 8 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Balon Greyjoy[edit]

  • Should the date format be dmy, since he is a German astronaut?
    Between MOS:DATERET (originally used mdy) and Merbold being most famous for his work with NASA, I think mdy is the way to go here.
    Very well; I usually find myself arguing that MOS:DATETIES applies to US astronauts and NASA missions to use mdy, so I was surprised to see mdy on an article that (in my opinion) has reason to use dmy not using it. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:23, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As he was not allowed to attend university in East Germany, he left for West Berlin in 1960, planning to study physics there. After the Berlin Wall was built in 1961, he moved to West Germany." This is a little confusing, as it makes it seem like West Berlin was a third location, not a West German city within the borders of East Germany. Maybe say that he moved to Stuttgart?
    West Berlin kind of was a special location, but I see your point. Added "Stuttgart".
  • "he decided to go to Berlin, crossing into West Berlin by bicycle" What's the significance of traveling by bicycle? I assume most of his travel was via train; the bicycle portion seems like a trivia fact.
    There were controls on the S-Bahn at the time, but walking or by bike it was easier to pass unnoticed. I think it also underlines that he didn't bring a lot of stuff.
    That makes sense. I'm not sure how this should be rewritten, but there's not a sense of how far he traveled to go to school. When it mentions that he continued seeing his mother, is this in the sense that he was home every night, or that he was at a boarding school but could visit her somewhat regularly? I'm guessing it's the latter, but it's not really clear from this.
    I don't know where he lived. He was old enough not to live at boarding school. As he was guilty of Republikflucht, he could not go home, so I think his mother went to Berlin for short visits instead.
  • "52.6% of the work was carried out by West German companies" This is a very specific way to refer to amount worked, which I think is a little intangible. Since this is close to 50%, I think it makes more sense to say "approximately half of the work".
    The source says "fulfilled 52.6% of all Spacelab work contracts", which I mangled into the thing you quoted. I have added "contracts"; now I hope the precision makes more sense and does not distort the meaning. If the precision is reduced, I'd like to do the same for the monetary contribution.
    I think this works better. My vote would be to say that approximately half of the contracts and funding came from West Germany, but I think it works either way.
  • It's not clear why Merbold graduated from high school twice (1960 from Theodor-Neubauer-Oberschule, and the diploma from 1961). I don't know anything about the German education system, but this is confusing from my US-based perspective.
    West Germany didn't accept the East German high school diploma for West German universities. Added a little.
  • Did it take Merbold 7 years to finish his bachelor's degree? The article mentions him graduating from high school in 1961 and then the University of Stuttgart in 1968. Assuming a typical 4-years at university, is there more information about why it took 7 years?
    The Diplom was more equivalent to a master's degree. At that time (some things were still similar when I went to university three decades later), I would guess that 4.5-5 years was the theoretical minimum duration, 6 years was normal and 10 years happened occasionally. 7 years was probably slightly slow but not extraordinary. Similarly, 8 years for the PhD looks slow, but it depends how much teaching / other work he had to do during this time; typically PhD students at some more technical-oriented universities were well paid but took forever to complete their thesis because of other work commitments. So on the whole I don't think it is worth commenting on; I added a link to Diplom, where it is mentioned that it often took longer than 5 years.
  • "and the Dutchman Wubbo Ockels" Too keep it in line with the other candidates, wouldn't it make more sense to say "and the Dutch Wubbo Ockels"?
    Not sure. The other candidates also don't have definite articles. My attempted edits made it less natural, so I've left as is for now.
    Apologies, I meant more "Dutchman" vs. "Dutch", so I changed it to "and Dutch". Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:19, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I changed "after the shuttle's payload bay doors had been opened" to ""after the orbiter's payload bay doors had been opened" to be more specific. I linked orbiter as well.
    Thanks!
  • Why not label the section for his spaceflights after the mission name ("STS-9" vs. "First Space Shuttle mission")? I think that is more descriptive, and is in line with other astronaut biography pages.
    "STS-9" is too much jargon to be a standalone section name (it is meaningless if you don't know the abbreviation). I could be persuaded to use "STS-9 Shuttle mission" or similar but from Merbold's perspective, I think the current section name makes sense.
    Update: Changed to "STS-9 Space Shuttle mission" (and similar), which gives both precision and an explanation what the jargon means. —Kusma (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there more information about STS-42? Compared to the STS-9 section, it's pretty brief and doesn't detail much about the mission or Merbold's role in it.
    I could add more about the mission (what type of experiments were performed), but I found very little information specifically about Merbold's role in it. The first mission met with far more media interest, especially in Germany.
    I don't think there needs to be much more mission info if there is not much more info about Merbold's role. But I think the STS-42 section should include launch/landing times, any delays, and other highlights to make it more in line with STS-9.
  • "In November 1992, ESA decided to cooperate with Russia on human spaceflight" I think this reads strangely; was there some sort of formal agreement to work together? It personifies ESA to say that it cooperates, when I'm assuming the heads of Roscosmos and the ESA signed an agreement together for a joint mission.
    The November 1992 agreement was an internal ESA one according to the source. They then signed a two-mission contract with "the Russians" (I assume Roscosmos) but I haven't been able to track down details whether this was signed off by bosses or by technical underlings.
  • "which failed to dock and impacted Mir on August 30, 1994, successfully docking only under manual control from Mir on September 2." Is there more information on this? I feel like saying "impact" has an implication of destruction, when according to the Progress M-24 page, there was minor damage, and it obviously wasn't too destructive if the station was fine and the docking occurred two days later.
    I use "collided" as on the Progress M-24 page now. It was indeed not as bad as Progress M-34 :) The source I use says "A second approach on the 30th went ahead, but failed when the ship actually impacted Mir on a handful of occasions, producing slight shocks which were felt by the three cosmonauts."
  • "a malfunction of a Czech-built furnace caused five of them to be postponed until after Merbold's return to Earth" I'm assuming the furnace is part of the experiment package? I think it could be misconstrued as part of the climate control system aboard Mir (assuming it is not). It should be clarified as to how the experiments were affected.
    Clarified that it was a materials science experiments furnace.
  • "He also occasionally gives lectures." Is this significant? If he had a public speaking career or had become a university lecturer, I think so, but if it's just the occasional school or event speech, I don't know if that should be mentioned as part of his career.
    He indeed has a public speaking career; you can book him with various agencies, for example this one. Do you think "he works as a public speaker" is better?
    I think that works better. To keep it from having a short sentence, I combined his public speaking career with the previous sentence. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:26, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They helped each other out; first, Jähn helped Merbold's mother, who had moved to Stuttgart, West Germany, to obtain a permit for a vacation in East Germany; and after German reunification, Merbold helped Jähn become a freelance consultant for the German Aerospace Center" Personal preference, but I don't think this sentence is needed, since these are relatively trivial action.
    In the Cold War/dissolution of East Germany context I don't find them so trivial.
    Sounds good. I split up the sentence into two separate ones. Not a deal breaker if you change it back. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:29, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be back later for more; nice work on this article! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:41, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for your comments so far! Some responses above. —Kusma (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's all I have; please ping me if you have any questions on what I wrote. Nice work! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:07, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Balon Greyjoy: Thanks again for reviewing! Some answers and clarifications above, what do you think? —Kusma (talk) 21:20, 18 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kusma: Almost complete with my review; I made a few changes and the only holdup I still have is a little more info about STS-42. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 14:32, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Balon Greyjoy, thank you for your edits! I have added a bit of info about STS-42. —Kusma (talk) 21:42, 21 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me! The FAC has my support! Balon Greyjoy (talk) 12:54, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Hawkeye7[edit]

Lead[edit]
  • Suggest moving the everything from "In 1977" on in the second paragraph of the lead into the third paragraph, so it then covers his astronaut career
  • " first Spacelab mission STS-9" -> " first Spacelab mission, STS-9,
  • "on board Space Shuttle Columbia" -> "on board the Space Shuttle Columbia"
  • "on Discovery" -> "on the Space Shuttle Discovery"
  • "joint Euromir" -> "joint ESA-Russian"
  • Link Red Army, West Berlin, Berlin Wall
  • Itlalicise Mir
    All done.
Early life and education[edit]
  • "A small village" Any idea what it was?
  • Link "East Germany", "West Berlin"
  • "a dissertation on the effects of neutron radiation on nitrogen-doped iron" Untersuchung der Strahlenschädigung von stickstoffdotierten Eisen nach Neutronenbestrahlung bei 140 Grad Celsius mit Hilfe von Restwiderstandsmessungen [2] Aside: do German universities still require a habilitation?
    All done. The suburb of Greiz that I also just added is the small village of Kurtschau [de], but it is difficult to find a RS for that. (According to the Google snippet, this paywalled article contains the info).
    I've added a source for Kurtschau.
    The habilitation gradually disappeared as a formal requirement for a professorship since the mid-1990s. Typical job ads these days ask for "habilitation or equivalent scientific output". In any case, Merbold had a permanent researcher position at the Max Planck Institute and didn't need a habilitation for that, as it was not a university position.
Astronaut training[edit]
  • "considered their engineering skills and physical health" But Merbold was not an engineer. How did he qualify?
    Added "science" as in the source. As an experimental physicist, Merbold probably also had some engineering skills.
  • Link payload specialist, mission specialist (which has no hyphen)
    Done.
STS-9 Space Shuttle mission[edit]
  • Link Chancellor of Germany. (Of Germany or West Germany?), EST
    Linked EST. If I link Chancellor of Germany I'll need to do something about the MOS:SEAOFBLUE. It is the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany, which for some reasons was called West Germany until October 1990. (When I grew up in the Federal Republic of Germany, there was "Germany" and the "GDR", which became part of Germany by accession). The German Democratic Republic did not have a chancellor.
  • When I was a child, there was "East Germany" and "West Germany" but for the millennials their has only ever been one. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ground-based astronaut work[edit]
  • "on Challenger" -> "on the Space Shuttle Challenger"
    Done.
STS-42 Space Shuttle mission[edit]
  • "launched with Discovery" -> "launched on the Space Shuttle Discovery"
  • "Edwards AFB on January 30, 1992, landing at 8:07 AM PST" You haven't defined the acronym AFB.
  • This is the first use of PST. Link. And AM should be "a.m." (MOS:TIME)
    All taken care of.
Euromir 94 mission[edit]
  • Stray parenthesis after fn 84
    Gone.
Later career[edit]
  • German Aerospace Center and European Astronaut Centre are doubly linked. (And we have two spellings of "centre". Suggest standardising on "centre")
    Duplinks gone. But the spelling is what each the two institutions use themselves, [3] [4] as well as our articles. (If these were my translations instead of what I consider to be official titles, I'd use "center" in both, as the article tries to be written in American English as it originally was, given that Merbold is known mostly for his work with NASA).
    That's fine so long as it is their preferred spelling. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also likes to fly planes including gliders." Are you still allowed to fly solo at age 81 in Germany? In most countries you have to hand your pilot's licence in at 65.
  • You can't hold a commercial pilot's licence in Germany after age 65, but there is no age limit for private licences.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:00, 22 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Hawkeye7 for your comments so far, and for the suggestion to use Merbold's book as a source. See above for responses. —Kusma (talk) 13:24, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Happy to support. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:15, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Spotchecks not done

  • "www" is not needed in website names
    Removed.
  • Citations to non-English sources should have language identified
    Hope I got them all.
  • Be consistent in whether ISSN is included for periodicals
    Think I added them all.
  • FN86: don't duplicate work in author parameter. Ditto FN105, check throughout
    Fixed
  • What makes planet-wissen a high-quality reliable source?
    Planet Wissen [de] is a science TV program and website published in collaboration by several major German public TV broadcasters.
  • Fn100 is missing work
    Added.
  • FN104 is mistitled
    Fixed.
  • Don't duplicate IDs in |url=
    There was only one JSTOR one?
  • Be consistent in when retrieval date is included
    I thought I was?
    Why Krige but not Lord or NASA? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:27, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I see. The links in these citations are not strictly required (the OCLC link provides the information in a more future-proof form) and essentially convenience links helping the reader access an electronic copy easily (similar to the Google Books links that help to find snippets). But Hathitrust and Archive.org are archival/librarian sites, and I trust them not to change their URL scheme in the future (and I don't see the point of a web archive of a page like that). I don't trust ESA as much as these places, so I use access date and an archived copy to be safe. I could remove the access-date for Krige (and also the archived copy if you think that makes it better) but I don't really see this as an improvement. —Kusma (talk) 09:02, 26 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Nikkimaria, I have removed the access-date and archived copy for Krige so now the entire "Bibliography" section has the same look; does that work for you? —Kusma (talk) 09:43, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, that's fine with me. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:50, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merbold 1988 is missing publisher and 1976 should use {{cite thesis}}
    Fixed.
  • Wilkes is missing publication location. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:23, 23 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Added.

Thank you Nikkimaria! Do things look OK now? —Kusma (talk) 15:38, 24 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

Sections seem OK to me, as are ALTs. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 09:49, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Ian[edit]

Recusing from coord duties to review, I've copyedited as I go pls let me know any concerns there. Comments:

  • I wonder if we're overciting in places, it seems some must be duplicating information -- these are examples from the first para of Early life and education:
    • Three citations for Ulf Merbold was born in Greiz, in the Vogtland area of Thuringia, Germany, on June 20, 1941. -- I'd expect one or two at most.
    • Four citations for the part about his father's imprisonment and death -- I can imagine this taking a few sources but four?
    • Three citations for Merbold's mother Hildegard Merbold was dismissed from her school by the Soviet zone authorities in 1945. -- again I'd expect one or two at most.
  • Do we know when he got married, and where he lives these days?

That's about it -- seems well-organised, detailed but not overly so, and generously illustrated. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for the review and the copyedit! I have tried to remove redundant sources, but for some things, several are necessary. (One source has Merbold's mother's name, another has the year when she was dismissed, the third one says who did the dismissing. Similarly, I have only one source that states Merbold's father was named Herbert, combined with another one for the date of death). And Merbold's book isn't online so I prefer to back it up with online sources where possible. I have now added the year of marriage and place of residence after finally finding a source that looks OK (i.e. one that doesn't smell like citogenesis via the German Wikipedia, where these informations are available but uncited). —Kusma (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fair enough, thanks. One other though, does and intended to start studying in Berlin so he could occasionally see his mother need three sources? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Certainly not, reduced to two (book in English plus newspaper in German that is available online). —Kusma (talk) 23:50, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      Tks Kusma. Taking the source and image reviews above as read, happy to support. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:27, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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