Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/U.S. Route 50 in Nevada

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:40, 29 March 2009 [1].

U.S. Route 50 in Nevada[edit]

Nominator(s): Dave (talk)

This will be my fourth road related FA if passed. This was by far the most challenging, but I think the most fun too. I've spent a year or so fine tuning this article and I believe it is ready.Dave (talk) 02:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose, it is rough around the edges. I didn't read far before getting bogged down in confusing problems:
    • Is the Roads project seriously back to putting those little signs in the route table? They are awful. They are visual cues that draw the reader's eye in but don't offer anything.
    • Is there a link to where the A-class review took place? I can't find anything.
    • The language in the lead is confusing.. you have "areas .. traversed by the route", "US 50 follows a ... route", "route follows a ... corridor". To a lay reader, it's unclear whether the highway IS the route, or the highway FOLLOWS the route. If the latter.. how can the route follow something?
    • "US 50 crosses the central portion of Nevada, entering the state near Lake Tahoe and exiting near Great Basin National Park." This is a problem I always have when reading road articles: you seem to assume a "direction" that isn't apparent to readers. Which is east and west? Once established, why does the road "enter" on one side and "exit" the other as if it were itself traveling? The rest of the paragraph is no help.
--Laser brain (talk) 05:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just a quick comment before I go to bed. It is the convention of the U.S. Department of Transportation that all roads begin in the south/west and end in the east/north. Obvious to us roadgeeks, but difficult to remember that many people in the world would have no way of knowing that. Thanks for the feedback, tomorrow I'll clarify that. I would encourage you to continue reading the article if you can. This article has had numerous rounds of reviews from within the US Roads wikiproject, but few reviewers outside the project, so your feedback is exactly what I need. Oh, and the ACR is here Wikipedia:WikiProject U.S. Roads/Assessment/A-Class review/U.S. Route 50 in Nevada.Dave (talk) 06:08, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One final comment, the use of marker images has been discussed ad nauseum, plus 100 more times, in virtually every forum in Wikipedia, WT:MOSFLAG, WT:USRD, WT:ELG, and various MOS talk pages. In all seriousness, you name the page, it's been discussed there. I do not consider this objection actionable, as every time its been discussed most people think they are appropriate with a few strongly vocal opponents. The last time it was discussed at MOSFLAG [2] the consensus was that this policy does not apply. But thanks for the opinion. Dave (talk) 06:13, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure I've been reminded about the south/west and east/north thing before. That a regular WP user can't remember should be an indication to how well our casual readers will do. The only reason I raise the marker image issue is that the last time I reviewed a road FAC, I'm quite sure the images weren't present. I will live with it. --Laser brain (talk) 06:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tweaked the lead to hopefully be more clear. Please advise if you still have concerns.Dave (talk) 06:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

  • What makes http://www.clui.org/clui_4_1/lotl/v27/k.html a reliable source?
    • I'll admit I have no personal experience with this organization, but they appear credible. They claim to have received several government grants for various studies, and their work has been recognized by others. [3][4][5][6][7]. If these are not sufficient, could you expand on what makes you doubt their credibility? Worst case I do have other sources for this information, just not as detailed as this one.
  • Likewise http://www.patricepress.com/books/580.htm?
    • The actual source of the data is the Lincoln Highway Association. Practice Press is just the publisher the association used. I'll clarify that with the rest of the fixes I plan to make tonight.
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for checking, I know it's a tedious job.Dave (talk) 18:32, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Image captions which are not complete sentences should not have periods at the end. Kaldari (talk) 19:05, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, got those. Dave (talk) 17:58, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tech. Review

Dabs (dabs checker tool)
  • Need to be fixed.
  • ..are up to speed.--₮RUCӨ 22:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
External links
..are up to speed, using the link checker tool
Ref formatting (WP:REFTOOLS)
  • The following ref name is directed at more than one specific ref, when it should only be directed at one specific ref
Thanks for finding these. I believe they are all fixed now. Please advise if you still have concerns. Dave (talk) 06:11, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref formatting is also found up to speed.--₮RUCӨ 22:17, 11 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments:
    • "Some of these summits are over 7,000 feet (2,134 m) high, located in pine forests and feature 8% grades and switchbacks." Need parallel structure.. you have "are", "located", and "feature".
    • "Traffic along Route 50 varies greatly, with ..." The "with" is a poor connector; please revise.
    • You're not consistently using commas when beginning a sentence with "In <date>".
--Laser brain (talk) 17:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now that you mention it, the Route description did have some poorly worded sentences. Thank you for pointing that out. I think I've got those fixed. Please advise if you see anything more.Dave (talk) 21:46, 12 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • More - this is looking pretty good once I dive into it, so it's probably not far off:
    • "... however the Nevada Department of Transportation has announced that, upon completion, US 50 will be moved to a freeway alignment being constructed for Interstate 580." I'd prefer more durable prose that doesn't commit us to maintenance.
      • Of all your suggestions this is the toughest. I feel the need to include it, as if I don't some anonymous editor will, probably in a sloppy manner. However, your point is dead on.
    • "In addition to the trails of the Pony Express and Lincoln Highway, this portion also parallels ..." Spot the extra word.
    • I sure would love to see an article about Middlegate.. it sounds fascinating. Can you get someone to create a stub to research later? Is there some old fart that's been living there and running the shop for 80 years?
      • It's on my get around to it list. For the record, last time I was there the bartender was a pretty, young woman. You are correct that it's quite the curiosity. There's plenty of information about the place on travel blogs etc. the tough part is finding reliable sources.
    • If the Summits and Passes table has one source, I would prefer a footer row with a proper citation to having the table title footnoted. See an example of this in saffron.
      • Done.
    • "The original highway followed what is now US 93 Ely to the ghost town of Schellbourne, from there following a dirt road towards Tooele, Utah." I don't get what "Ely" is doing there.. is that part of the highway name? US 93 Ely? If so, it should be part of the wikilink. Or is it supposed to be from Ely?
      • it was a cut and paste error that didn't get noticed. Fixed.
    • "However, Utah instead favored ..." Spot the extra word.
    • Is there a reason for having non-breaking spaces between "US 50" but not things like "Route 2"?
      • Just being lazy, fixed.
    • "The border crossing was moved to avoid paving a route through Marjum Canyon in Utah." This requires more explanation. You've just said the paved route is 14 miles south - is that to say they moved it 14 miles south to avoid the canyon? Or were there other factors?
      • I re-worded this, please advise if its still confusing.
    • In the last section, you talk about portions of the road being closed... why? Disrepair?
      • Good catch. I found out from researching that it is not officially closed, although it might as well be. I have a four wheel drive, and I turned back =-) legible english.Dave (talk) 04:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Support, it looks good. Thanks for all your efforts and for your responses above. The Middlegate thing sounds like a challenge; if I can find some good sources, I'll let you know. --Laser brain (talk) 04:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I gave it a quick read and made a few minor changes which hopefully should address any possible confusion of lay readers. Also, is there any way we can fix the stacking of the infobox and major cities templates? I know text shouldn't be squeezed between two images or templates, but large gaps in the text don't look good either. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 15:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The layout looks descent on my monitor. If it's rough on yours, feel free to play with the image layout, I always struggle with this. Dave (talk) 18:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support I read it twice, made a few minor copyedits and I think it looks good. I bet you spent a lot of time on this, very comprehensive. --ErgoSum88 (talk) 21:54, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. For the record, yes of the 4 road articles I've nominated for FA, by far this one required the most time and research. I've debated including an extra sentence or two about the Pony express, which I may add shortly.Dave (talk) 00:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - I have some concerns with the article before I will support it for FA:
  1. Are alternate routes nessecarily considered "major" intersections?
    1. They are both among the 10 heaviest interchanges by AADT data. But I'll give you what is a "major" interchange is subject to interpretation.
  2. Since this is a state-detail page, is it nessecary for "U.S. Route 50" to be bolded?
    1. This was discussed at [8] In the past, the lack of bold title was causing grief for other FAC nominations, and subjecting these articles to vandalism edits from those not understanding the reasoning. So the project agreed to change the standard for state detailed articles, to be more agreeable with the at large wikipedia community.
  3. "... traversing the resort communities of Lake Tahoe, the state capital,...", it may be helpful it indicate the state capital is Carson City
  4. "In the stretch of highway between Fallon and Delta, Utah, a span of 409 miles (658 km), there are only three small towns, Austin, Eureka and Ely.[4] This span is roughly the same distance as Boston, Massachusetts to Baltimore, Maryland[5] or Paris, France to Zürich, Switzerland" - this information sounds a little trivial but interesting nonetheless.
    1. I agree this sticks out, but do feel the statement adds value. I've played with re-wording it a couple of times, if you've got ideas please share.
  5. The "Loneliest Road in America" section in the Route description may fit better in the History section
    1. It was there in an earlier iteration of the article, and moved up by request. This paragraph has been a thorn. It's what give the article appeal to non-roadgeeks, so it needs to be prominent, but I agree that it's more historical background than route description.
  6. In the sentence "Today, the Nevada Commission on Tourism sponsors a promotion where visitors can stop at several designated locations along the route, and request a state issued novelty passport with a stamp representing that location.", remove comma after "route"
  7. In first sentence of "Western Nevada", it may help to indicate route continues from California
  8. The route description section seems to go into unnessecary detail about the history of the towns along the route? Can more information about the route itself, such as what roads it intersects and what it physically looks like, be presented?
    1. I disagree. I think the "old west" mining character of the towns and the wide open spaces between them is what defines the character of this highway. I know some roadgeeks live for the GPS co-ordinates of the passing lanes, but I don't. IMO, that's what Google Maps is for, not Wikipedia. I would be willing to add a few statements to the effect that most of the highway west of Fallon is 4-lane, most east of Fallon is 2 lane, if that is agreeable. I have added two sentences stating basically that west of Fallon is well traveled and mostly four lane, east of Fallon is mostly 2 lane and very lightly traveled.
  9. Is it standard to have the source spelled out and cited in the Summits and passes table
    1. In some projects, that IS the standard, WP:USRD is in the minority in not using this standard. was added per feedback above.
  10. In history, It may help to mention when Pony Express and the Lincoln Highway were established
  11. The sentence "The original highway followed what is now US 93 from Ely to the ghost town of Schellbourne, from there following a dirt road towards Tooele, Utah." sounds a little awkward
  12. Change "These officials" to "They"
  13. The sentence "This route was initially numbered US 50 from Ely to Wendover and US 40/50 across western Utah, however is now numbered US 93, US 93 Alternate and I-80." sounds awkward
  14. "was cobbled together"? Is there a better choice of words that can be used here?
  15. You use "the route of US 50" in two consecutive sentences. Can you change one of them?
  16. Can another word be used instead of "via"?
  17. In next paragraph, you use "The paved route" three times. Try using a greater variety in wording
  18. The sentence "This route is mostly intact, however has been reconfigured to serve private residences in the canyon." sounds awkward
  19. Is there any information about more recent history to the route that can be added?
    1. As in more recent than the Loneliest Road stuff?
      1. Somewhat, like any major construction projects that have happened along the route
        1. The "big" one is the Interstate 580 construction in Carson City, which the article touches on twice, and links to that article for more information. I'm not aware of any others.
  20. Is there a more official source than Google Maps that can be used for the mileage in the major intersections table?
    1. Not that I've found, unfortunately Nevada DOT does not publish milepost logs.
  21. In notes, U.S. routes should be mentioned like "US 395" not "US395"
  22. Are state rotues in parentheses next to the road names unsigned routes?
    1. Yes. Although to be honest some of the intersections I've listed as signed may in fact be unsigned, NDOT's literature isn't 100% clear.
  23. Why does the mileage in the major intersectinos table jump between different routes and not just reflect the mileage from which US 50 entered the state from California?
    1. The biggest reason is that it's not possible to drive, or compute mileage on the route as defined by Nevada DOT, as their logs use a routing that isn't finished yet, and doesn't show on most maps detailed enough to compute miles. The other reason is Nevada, similar to California and Ohio does not provide state wide mileage figures, only county wide. Then add that the problem county (Carson City) is the 2nd county traversed by the route, makes things even worse. If the problem county were only White Pine, I could do this without OR. However I can't compute statewide mileages without guessing mileages for an alignment that doesn't yet exist.
  24. "Related routes" should be a third level heading
    1. Although the WP:MOS does not say this, most style guides I've read advise against orphan .1 sub headings in outlines. With that said, I see a valid point either way and am willing to change to meet consensus.
  25. For reference 11, it does not appear to show the details of Stephen King mentioning US 50 in his book
    1. This reference does not mention US-50 by name, however the book Desperation itself does. What this reference does say is a cross country drive stopping at Ruth, Nevada. It's impossible to drive on paved roads to Ruth, Nevada without driving US 50. Then add the fact that the next source used says more or less the same thing, while mentioning US 50 by name. Putting those statements together, its an obvious inference well clear of the line of OR that US 50 is the highway being discussed.
  26. For references 14, 15, and 38, is the source from "Department of Cultural Affairs - State of Nevada", "State of Nevada - Department of Cultural Affairs", or "Nevada Department of Cultural Affairs"?
  27. Reference 27 links to the home page of the AAA and not a map
  28. Reference 28 says nothing about the easternmost portion of US 50 being a scenic byway
    1. It's there. Click the link labeled "The Byways" at the top of the page, which expands the list.
  29. Reference 34 is for a map from the USDA that has been uploaded to Commons. It may help to indicate this in the reference
    1. Agreed, but how would you do this? I'm not aware of a commons flag in the citation templates. So I'd have to do something like list wikimedia commons as an alternate publisher.
  30. Reference 37 links to the home page of Benchmark Capital and not a map Dough4872 (talk) 15:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. I've commented on the easy ones, and the ones I disagree with. I'll get the rest later. Dave (talk) 16:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK I think I got them all, including a 50% reduction in the use of the word "via". =-) Dave (talk) 19:20, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article looks fine now so I will Support it, despite the fact that I feel the Loneliest Road information would fit better in the history section. Dough4872 (talk) 00:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review — two niggles as follows:

  • File:US 50 (NV) map.svg: please provide the source for the road networks in this map; base map (most likely one of those CIA Worldbook) for the state boundary would be best provided for ...
    • Actually it's GIS data posted by the U.S. Dept. of Transportation and in the public domain. I realize the picture does not state that, I will add it. but that's been the standard for the maps task forces of all the wikproject I'm familiar with for a few years now (WP:USRD, WP:TRAIN, WP:Mountain, etc.) yes, I'm aware that some people have errantly taken screenshots of commercial map software and called it public domain, that's the reason why those wikiproject insist on using GIS data.
  • File:Us route 50 nevada.jpg: need external help here. Can any administrator verify in the file's history (at Wikipedia) that Regulator78 has released it as public domain, rather than under other licenses? The upload log shows nothing to that effect, and the user's contributions are only 2 edits on 13 April 2006...

Should be easy to resolve. Jappalang (talk) 04:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'll hunt down an admin for the confirmation. Thanks for the review. Dave (talk) 16:11, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Regulator78 originally uploaded that file here on April 13, 2006, and released it into the public domain (used {{PD-self}}). – TMF 16:21, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This is a great article; however, there are some serious prose problems that have not been addressed:

  • Lead - "was the better"? Change to "was better" or "was the better one."
  • RD - "Hairpin" should not be capitalized.
  • "Route 50"?
  • 1.2 - "The highway follows the eastern shore squeezing between the lake and the crest of the Carson Range." - comma between shore and squeezing.
  • Carson Street and William Street currently carry the highway through the city, however the Nevada Department of Transportation has announced that, upon completion, US 50 will be moved to a freeway alignment being constructed for Interstate 580.[1] - first comma should be a semicolon
  • 1.3 - "Cottonwood" should not be capitalized.
  • Frequent patrons of the bar at Middlegate are unsure of the origins, however most believe it started sometime in the mid 1980s. - comma should be a semicolon
  • 1.5 - the first few sentences are a bit choppy, see if you can combine a few.
    • I tried but it ended up sounding worse. So if you see a way, please do.
  • "National Park" probably should not be capitalized.
  • The table has "Source:" and then the source with no space in between.
  • History - Lincoln Highway has to have been linked earlier in the article. Same with Pony Express.
    • Believe it or not, that is the first wikilinked instance since the lead. As a long article (46k) with this being the first mention in the last major prose section, I think it's appropriate.
  • This route had been previously used by the Pony Express an early attempt at an express mail service, started in 1860. - comma after Pony Express.
  • This route was initially numbered US 50 from Ely to Wendover and US 40/50 across western Utah, however is currently US 93, US 93 Alternate and I-80.[31] - restructure.
  • 2.2 - Utah State Line - only Utah should be capitalized.
  • The highway returned to Green River along what is now numbered UT 201,US 89, and US 6. - lost a space
  • The original used by the Lincoln Highway was previously known as Johnson's Cutoff or the Carson Ridge Emigrant Road. - set "used by the Lincoln Highway" off by commas.
  • This route followed Kings Canyon to scale the Sierra Nevada.[39] This route was severely damaged by a flood in 1997.[40] - combine sentences.
  • The old road through Clear Creek Canyon is mostly intact, however is now used by private residences in the canyon. - restructure
  • The original route is not drivable as it runs through Naval Air Station Fallon, however portions are still in public use as Harrigan Road (SR 115) and Berney Road (SR 119). - semicolon
  • Major ints table - I see a lot of "US395" and "US50" where the abbreviation is inconsistent. --Rschen7754 (T C) 20:34, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for finding those. I have either implemented your changes, or commented where I disagree. Please advise if you see further issues.Dave (talk) 22:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - a very comprehensive article, and meets the criteria. --Rschen7754 (T C) 23:14, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wish the image in Eastern Nevada could be moved to the left so the building isn't looking off the page (I like to think of WP:MOS#Images as applying to all images, not just faces, but it's not strictly necessary). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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