Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Black Cat (US magazine)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 26 December 2022 [1].

The Black Cat (US magazine)[edit]

Nominator(s): Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:57, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about an unusual and somewhat influential fiction magazine started at the end of the 19th century. It published many writers who later became famous -- Henry Miller's first sale was to The Black Cat, and it saved Jack London's career by buying a story from him just as he was about to give up writing. The covers were the work of the publisher's wife, Nelly Littlehale Umbstaetter, who went on to have a minor career as an artist. It published science fiction and fantasy, but also just about every other kind of fiction. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:57, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Aoba47[edit]

  • For this part (had visited Umbstaetter's home in Back Bay), would it be worthwhile to use the full article title (Back Bay, Boston)? I only ask because I was unfamiliar with this place and I think it may be beneficial for some readers to have more context.
    Done -- I didn't make it part of the link, since I think a comma in the middle makes it look as if there are two links there. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I completely get that, but thank you for adding it in anyway. Aoba47 (talk) 02:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would a link for the Supreme Court of the United States article be beneficial here (his case in the US Supreme Court)? I know it is a rather basic concept, but I'd be curious if non-US readers would want more context if they are not 100% confident. It makes me think of how I know of the National Diet, but I cannot really say anything about it with confidence.
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would link speculative fiction since other genres like science fiction get a link.
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This sentence does not have an obvious citation: (Other well-known writers who appeared in The Black Cat included Rex Stout, O. Henry, Rupert Hughes, Susan Glaspell, Ellis Parker Butler, Holman Day, and Octavus Roy Cohen.)
    Oops. Now cited; can't believe I missed that! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It happens to the best of us lol. Aoba47 (talk) 02:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is such a nitpick-y point so apologies in advance, but should the placement of the notes and citations be standardized throughout the article? I see an instance where the note is put before the citations and another where it is put after.
    I hadn't realized I wasn't being consistent about that, but having had a look I'm inclined to leave note 6 (the inconsistent one) where it is -- it's the main source for the information, and the following two are supplemental. I generally prefer to put sources in order of importance rather than numerical order, though I know some editors dislike out-of-numerical-order sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you for the explanation. That makes sense to me. I do not have a strong opinion about the placement either way tbh. I normally point it as it seems like a common comment in the FAC, but I think it should be open to personal preference as I do agree with your line of reasoning on it. Aoba47 (talk) 02:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this review is helpful. I do not have that many comments, and once everything is addressed, I will be more than happy to support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. Best of luck with it! Aoba47 (talk) 22:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review and the copyedits! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for addressing everything! I support this FAC for promotion based on the prose. Have a great start to your week! Aoba47 (talk) 02:59, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

HF - support[edit]

I'll review this sometime later this week. Hog Farm Talk 23:30, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The last known issue was dated February 1923, but an April 1923 issue may have appeared" - any details on why they think one may have appeared in April?
    Nothing I can find. The 1985 source simply says it goes to that date but gives a volume number of 27/4, which is actually the number of the October 1922 issue per this source. Stephensen-Payne just says "It is unclear how many issues were published in 1922 and the magazine may have lasted until Apr-1923", without elaborating. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead specifies that Kane restarted it in 1922, when "1920, to another New York publisher, but ceased publication with the October 1920 issue.[43] It reappeared just over a year later, this time published by William Kane, the owner of The Editor, a magazine for amateur writers" in the body leaves a late 1921 reappearance open to reasonableness
    I could uncollapse the table by default, if that would resolve this? Or are you saying that the text should be more explicit? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the text should be a bit more explicit
    Done. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The guidance to writers posted periodically in the magazine always gave a low upper limit on the word count" - I'm not sure that this is exactly supported by the footnote
    I think 6,000 is a fairly low count -- it would be about 13 pages of the magazine. In addition to the limits listed in note 5, other limits were given at different times, always lower than 6,000, e.g. 2,500 maximum in 1897, 2,000 words in 1900, 5,000 in 1905. I didn't want to overload the note but could add more of these. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    My concern is that it isn't going to be an obvious statement that these were low for the time. Do any of the sources state that they're low for the time or format, or give a comparative word count for other similar magazines? Hog Farm Talk 14:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm pretty sure I've seen something about this in the sources, but will have to look this evening. If I can't find anything definite, I could change it to "The guidance to writers posted periodically in the magazine gave upper limits on the required word count that varied from 6,000 words to as low as 1,000 words" -- would that work? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:26, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, that would work. Hog Farm Talk 14:29, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I did find one source that mentioned the word count limits, but it didn't specifically point out that these were low word counts so I've gone with the phrasing above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:04, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not seeing much to pick on with this one. Hog Farm Talk 02:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 03:15, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie891[edit]

I'll give this a read through. Eddie891 Talk Work 14:51, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • " having saved enough money to start it on his own account" I'm not sure how relevant it is, but given that you establish where his original wealth came from, it might be worth mentioning where this money he saved was earned?
    I'm not quite sure what you're asking for, but the only information I have about his career before he started The Black Cat that's not already in the article is in this clipping. It mentions the Charles A. Vogler Company and Comfort magazine; is that the sort of thing you're thinking of? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Just wondering where the money he saved came from. I don't think that's really it, but no worries if the information doesn't exist, the reader can reasonably assume it was a continuation of his advertising and publishing career. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:51, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and he was not the first publisher to take advantage of it to this extent" is "to this extent" necessary? Given the context, I think it could be axed without losing anything
    Done -- I meant it to refer to the publishers pricing their magazines at five cents as opposed to the ten cents Umbstaetter had originally planned, but I agree it's unnecessary. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • ""no magazine ever published at any price has secured so large a sale in so short a time"" It might be worth dating when the News Company said this because it could be read as though the article was published in any year, even, say, 2022.
    They said it in 1896, so it really only applies to the first few issues. Looking at how I was citing this that wasn't at all clear, so I've rejigged this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • When was the first issue published?
    October 1895; this was already in the bibliography section but I've added it to the publication history section too. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you considered adding some inflation calculations to the money for some context?
    I hadn't thought of it, and looking at it now I'm a bit reluctant -- there are almost twenty dollar figures given in the article and I think providing an inflated value for all of them would disrupt the reading experience. If you think it's necessary I could perhaps create a footnote that inflates a couple of example figures and attach that note to all the dollar figure mentions? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I agree that would be unnecessarily clunky. Eddie891 Talk Work 00:51, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • " with the prize pool expanded to $2,600" -- if it was initially " $1,000 first prize and another $1,100 " for the next four, wouldn't that be a prize pool of $5,400? So how is that an expansion?
    The $1,100 was for the next four stories combined -- I thought readers would naturally interpret it that way as otherwise the first prize story gets the least money. I can add "combined" to "four next best stories" if you think it's necessary. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    probably just a me being slow thing that doesn't need in-article clarification. Sorry-- Eddie891 Talk Work 00:53, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "subscription to a year of The Black Cat" might be worth saying how much that cost?
    Added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Umbstaetter read nearly 8,000 of the manuscripts," he personally read 8,000, or had his manuscript readers read them?
    He personally read them. Added. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "suggests that the Panic of 1907 probably influenced" Looking at Mott's work I'm not sure that he directly says that: all he says is "it followed the example of other magazines" in raising price. While he mentions the 1907 panic in the preceding sentence, is that enough to say he's attributing the raise in price to the panic? In my reading, it could also be interpreted as attributing a fall in circulation to the financial crisis, which could have in turn necessitated an increased price, maybe. Thoughts?
    Looking at what Mott says I agree it's not certain that's what he meant, so I cut it. I think your interpretation (circulation drops because of the crisis and that requires the price to go up) is probably right, but Umbstaetter specifically cites production costs ("Thirteen years ago...it was possible to issue [The Black Cat] at five cents a copy. To-day it is impossible. The cost of production has increased over 50%.") so probably best to stick with that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but an April 1923 issue may have appeared" might be worth explaining why it "may have" but is not clear?
    Stephensen-Payne, the most recent bibliographic source, just says "the magazine may have lasted until Apr-1923". I could add "according to one bibliographer" if that would help? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I think it's fine. The reader can check the sources if they are questioning-- Eddie891 Talk Work 00:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The story, about an inventor who could revive the dead, is famous because it saved London's writing career" this sentence feels a little bit out of place. Thoughts on cutting "is famous because"? Maybe just "...revive the dead, saved London's writing career"? Famous feels a bit subjective...
    I made it "well-known"; "famous" probably is a bit too strong. The story appears in multiple biographies of London, and London told the story himself on several occasions, including the introduction to Umbstaetter's short story collection. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • " London also repeated the assertion made by Barnes: Umbstaetter did not buy stories based on a writer's reputation, instead being willing to "judge a story on its merits and to pay for it on its merits", in London's words" Is there a more smooth way to incorporate "in London's words"? Perhaps "London also repeated the assertion made by Barnes: he wrote that Umbstaetter did not buy stories based on a writer's reputation, but was willing to "judge a story on its merits and to pay for it on its merits""?
    I agree the current wording is a bit clumsy, but I'm not crazy about your suggested alternative either. I've just cut "in London's words" instead; I think that's OK because "repeated" in that sentence should make it clear that it's London's words we're reporting, and the citation is right after the closing quote. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was owned by Fox Films" you earlier describe (and link) Fox Film (without the S).
    Fixed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The second was The Man Who Found Zero" might be worth attributing a publisher to this and Page's collections, if you give the publisher of the first anthology.
    All I can find for this is the Amazon page -- the publisher is a small independent and doesn't have their website working properly, and there's no list of their books. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing much, a few minor comments. Many probably simply explainable here. Nice work, as always Eddie891 Talk Work 15:29, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review! Responses above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:27, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support on prose Eddie891 Talk Work 00:52, 23 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – pass[edit]

  • "with small cash prizes for reader submissions of their favorite stories, and a prize of $25 for the most popular story in each issue" is cited to Vol. 22, no. 2. p. inside front cover. I can't see any mention of prizes nor of $25. What am I missing? Gog the Mild (talk) 17:36, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If you go to the next page, you'll see the details -- just before page 1. Perhaps if I make the citation say "front matter" rather than "inside front cover"? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:17, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I find it difficult to consider "p. inside front cover" as other than a single page, so that, plus "p." → 'pp.' would seem more appropriate. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:41, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I made it "pages preceding p. 1.". Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:46, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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