Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roza Shanina/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Ucucha 15:42, 14 March 2012 [1].

Roza Shanina[edit]

Nominator(s): Brandmeister t 13:27, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I am nominating this for featured article because the article underwent a major work since its creation, becoming a GA. It was copyedited by two editors, while I managed to obtain additional scanned references from Russia. The article ultimately received high rankings on the article feedback tool and now fills the undercoverage gap in the English-language sources about her. I think no major omission was made. Brandmeister t 13:27, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

~~Weak Oppose~~Support now that changes have been made. Her early life and the section "Character and Personality" are a bit too intimate in detail, but otherwise the article is fairly good.

Perhaps a Russian pronunciation guide for her name should be included?
"Roza was above average in height, with light brown hair and blue eyes, and spoke in a drawling Northern Russian dialect." As far as I know, a person's appearance does not need to be described (even if their photo is black-and-white). Her dialect may be worth mentioning, but there's no need to include "drawling".
"Shanina graduated from college in the 1941–42 academic year, obtaining her certificate." Are we calling her "Roza" as above or "Shanina"? Be consistent. I'm not very familiar with Soviet academic terminology, but I would prefer the word "diploma" here unless "certificate" is the proper translation. And finally, "Shanina graduated from college in the 1941-42 academic year and obtained her certificate/diploma" avoids any participial phrase.
"At that time the Soviet Union had been deploying numerous female snipers, because they were small in stature and had flexible limbs, as well as being both patient and cunning." The last part of this sentence doesn't seem quite right; perhaps it would be better as "and it was believed that they were both patient and cunning".
"The other girls, concerned, ran up saying, 'That was a fascist you finished off!'" I'm assuming that the Soviet Union was sending women, and not mere girls, into World War II.
"In May 1944, Shanina became credited with 17 confirmed enemy kills,[13] and in the second half of May was praised as a precise and brave soldier." I would rewrite this as "By May 1944, Shanina was credited with 17 confirmed enemy kills, and was soon praised as a precise and brave soldier."
"Shanina loved writing and used to send letters to her home village and to the other girls in Arkhangelsk." "Used to" is rather informal; better is "would often". And once again, it's hard to believe that mere girls would be subjected to the horrors of war, though in this case I would replace "other girls" with "her friends".
A citation should be given for the second paragraph in the "Diary" section.
"Three of Shanina's brothers (Mikhail, Fyodor and Sergey) died in the war. Mikhail died during the Siege of Leningrad in 1941, while Fyodor was killed the same year during the Battle of Crimea." Why mention all of this after describing Shanina's personal life, at the end of the whole article? Indeed, are the fates of her brothers relevant to the article? I do not believe they are unless her mourning over them is noteworthy.

All in all this is a very readable and informative article, but it could still use some fine-tuning. Inter change able|talk to me 21:34, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Almost all fixed, thanks. I decided to leave her appearance as there's no color photography of her of the time to my knowledge. As for diploma, the original word in the ref is "аттестат", which is closer to "certificate" than "diploma" IMO (I'm not sure that the document looked like diploma). As soon as I get more familiar with IPA, I'll add it. Brandmeister t 14:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The lede should describe her death, given that it comprises a significant part of the article, and happened under exceptional circumstances. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Brandmeister t 12:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. But I wish you luck with this nevertheless. Roza was obviously a remarkable woman, and she deserves to be remembered. Unfortunately though this article needs a lot of work on the prose to meet the FA criteria. Maybe a MilHist A-class review would be a good place to start? I'll give just a few examples of problems anyway:

"There Shanina lived with her aunt Agnia Borisova. On Saturdays Shanina went to the village to take care of her ill aunt." Is this a different aunt?
"Roza together with one friend in grades five through seven had to walk 13 kilometres (8.1 mi) to Bereznik ...". I don't understand what "one friend in grades five through seven" means in this context.
"... to the rail station and rode to Arkhangelsk to study in the college there". You don't study in a college, you study at a college.
"Shanina departed almost without money or possessions." What does that mean? With very little money and almost no possessions?
"Shanina received little from home ...". Little what from home? Financial support?
"At that time the Soviet Union had been deploying numerous female snipers, because they were small in stature ...". How do we reconcile this with having been told earlier that she was "above average in height"?
"For her actions in the 1944 battle for the village Kozyi Gory ...". Should that be "for the village of Kozyi Gory"?
"Shanina with a sniper badge on the right chest." As opposed to the wrong chest? "Her right chest" would be better.
"In the diary Shanina noted in particular ...". Whose diary? Hers?
"Shortly before her death, Shanina was made eligible for her third Order of Glory." How is someone "made" eligible, as opposed to becoming eligible?
"... which asked Shanina's contemporaries to write what they know about her." The tenses don't match;. should be "to write what they knew about her".
"In 1964–65 a renewed interest in Shanina sparked in the Soviet press ...". Why?
"... and most of all, valued courage and absence of egoism in people". The word is "egotism".

Malleus Fatuorum 02:33, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All fixed or paraphrased. The article was previously copyedited in the Guild of Copy Editors, but I'm ready to address other problems if they are. Brandmeister t 12:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that you ask for your money back from the GoCE in that case, as there are still lots of problems. A few more examples:

"Shanina died during the East Prussian Offensive while shielding the wounded commander of the artillery unit." Why "the" rather than "her" artillery unit? Was there only one involved in the East Prussian Offensive?
"There Shanina lived with her ill aunt Agnia Borisova. On Saturdays Shanina went to the village to take care of Borisova." That still doesn't make sense. If she lived with her aunt then she must already have been in the village. Or did she board at the school during the week?
"Shanina departed almost without money and possessions." Still hasn't been fixed.
"... Roza sometimes returned from her compatriots of Ustyansky District to her college dormitory at 2–3 am". "Compatriots of" is very unidiomatic.
"Shanina graduated from college in the 1941–42 academic year, obtaining her certificate." Her certificate of what? Her graduation certificate? If so, then it's sufficient to tell us that she graduated from college.
"At that time the Soviet Union had been deploying numerous female snipers ...". "Had been" implies that they no longer were, and thus is incompatible with "at that time".
"... while still living in the dormitory." What dormitory? Last we heard she'd been offered a free apartment.

Malleus Fatuorum 15:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I just don't know whether it was her artillery unit, so changed to "an". "...while still living in the dormitory" has been left because she would probably live in the kindergarten's apartment only temporarily while working. Brandmeister t 21:11, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, I don't speak Russian. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Be consistent in how multi-author sources are notated
Be consistent in whether months are abbreviated or not
FN 16: formatting
Be consistent in whether or not you provide locations for books
Compare formatting of FNs 17 and 18
Who publishes this source? This one? This? Nikkimaria (talk) 04:36, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. The first source is published by the Russian state TV and radio broadcasting company Pomorie, the second is the webportal of Arkhangelsk Oblast (Ustyany District in particular). I've removed the last ref as it's user-generated. Brandmeister t 16:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I'd take another look at the page; I wasn't careful enough last time.

"Before moving to a dormitory..." In what academic institution/boardinghouse?
The sentences in the article, and in particular second paragraph of her early life are all very short and choppy; you should join a few together with semicolons, commas, and transitions.
Should the Diary section be so intrusive, in the middle of her two tours of duty? It might be better to place it at the end of the section.
"Diarial" is indeed a word according to TheFreeDictionary.com, but it may confuse readers. As a caption for the image, I would prefer "one of Shanina's notebooks".
Shanina cannot have "a sniper badge on her right chest" as per the caption of the image in the East Prussia section. If so, she must have two chest. Better is "on the right side of her chest" or simply "on her chest". Or you could just avoid all mentions of her chest altogether and use "Shanina with a sniper badge." Come to think of it, what was that badge and what was its significance? Is it a Soviet or Allied military award that should be mentioned? Is it one of her awards of honour and glory?
For which counter-offensive did she receive the Medal for Courage?
"Following the East Prussian Offensive, the Germans tried to strengthen every location." I would heartily commend Germany for attempting to fortify the entire universe, which is what "every location" actually means, but I assume "fortify all of their strongholds" was intended.
"Its title refers to the Shanina's words..." I understand the difficulty with using articles in English, but they are not used before proper names unless an entire family is being described. So drop "the".
"'I have clearly remembered the mother's eyes. They weren't teary anymore." That first sentence seems like a mistranslation, not that I speak Russian or can even access the original text.
Should "Oy tumany moi, rastumany" be romanized? After all, its translation is given immediately, it is a genuine Russian title, and the article is understandable without it (unlike her name; Ша́нина would turn away a lot of readers).

The article is still excellent; I won't retract my support. Best of luck, Inter change able|talk to me 18:15, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Largely fixed. I decided to leave the Diary section where it is for chronological concerns to maintain smoother text flow. The ref doesn't specify which counter-offensive. What's wrong with "I have clearly remembered the mother's eyes" and how do you propose to tune it? The song's Romanized title was retained for encyclopedical purposes since the translation may vary. Brandmeister t 16:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It does not make sense. The present perfect tense, which is used, means that the action was completed soon before the time of speaking or writing. I assume that this is what is meant: "I clearly remember her mother's eyes." (This describes the action in the present; Shanin is talking about the present. "They weren't teary at all..." ("They weren't teary anymore" means that they were teary at some point in the past, but this is no longer the case; this is obviously a fallacy.) Inter change able|talk to me 19:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to past simple. The mother already lost some sons before Shanina's death, so I translated that another sentence the way it is. Brandmeister t 22:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Oppose. Unfortunately it seems your copy editor might not have been as thorough as needed. This really does need to be looked at closely by another copy editor. As it stands, there are too many points where the English is not quite at the natural, native-speaker level. The content is very comprehensive, the structure is strong and the topic is very interesting, but I can't support without the prose receiving some further attention. Please do renominate this after it's been copy edited again. Lemurbaby (talk) 05:53, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Malleus, who did his usual fine work. - Dank (push to talk) 15:04, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.