Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ringo Starr/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 25 August 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Ringo Starr[edit]

Ringo Starr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it to be well-written, well-researched and comprehensive. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Cassianto[edit]

Glad to see this making the set. This will take a few visits and I will do the lede last.

  • Thanks much for making the effort, Cassianto. I appreciate your input and will attempt to resolve your concerns. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:05, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lead section

I think the lede is OK but not great. In terms of length, yes we have the four paragraphs, however I think there is too much detail in terms of his medical conditions. I think this will need to be cut to just saying "Starr was twice afflicted by life-threatening illnesses during his childhood, and as a result of prolonged hospitalisations, fell behind scholastically." I don't feel naming the conditions is particularly helpful unless it effected him and his career later in life. I also worry that we don't talk too much of his later solo career. There doesn't appear to be any later albums mentioned, or quotes from critics. I think this will need a reworking. I have made a few edits, but didn't want to do anything too heavy.

Thanks for the excellent review User:Cassianto! I've now trimmed out the excess detail regarding Starr's childhood health problems, but I'm not too certain about expanding on his solo career beyond this summary: "After their break-up in 1970, he released several successful singles and albums and recorded with each of the former Beatles." He had three significant hits (written or co-written with others) and after 1974 there isn't too much for any strong notability music wise; perhaps I'm missing something here, so please feel free to talk some sense into me if I'm wrong! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:08, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thats ok Gabe, I have enjoyed the review. I think the lede is now fine. I think mentioning the fact he did have a solo career is the more important thing here...I must admit Ringo's solo hits don't exactly spring to mind! What do you think about the idea of adding a quote from a Beatles critic about Starr's role within the group? -- CassiantoTalk 10:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What do you think of this? The quote isn't from a music critic per se, but it is from a respected drummer and I think it speaks to the point well. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:22, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that's better. I like that, nice addition. -- CassiantoTalk 23:02, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
1940–1956
  • Is it encyclopaedic to mention what room he was born in?
  • Why is the fact he was born a month after the Dunkirk evacuation relevent?
  • "Within weeks, while lying in bed recuperating, Elsie heard sirens indicating that the Luftwaffe's bombing of Liverpool and the Second World War's Battle of Britain had begun." -- recuperating from what, and why is the war relevent?
  • "...at the local ballroom circuit" or on the local ballroom circuit?
  • Why do we link the Beatles in the lede, but not on first mention within the body? Also, is it The Beatles as the article suggests or just Beatles?
  • I'm not sure of the term "days on end". It sounds a bit euphemistic.
  • "In 1944, in an effort to reduce their housing costs, his family moved to 10 Admiral Grove..." -- Where is that?
  • "...;soon after, his parents separated; they divorced within the year." Not sure of the second semi-colon. Could we do away with it in favour of a conjunction?
  • "He later stated that he has "no real memories" of his father, who made little effort to bond with him, visiting "Ritchie" as few as three times thereafter..." -- Starr will need to be mentioned by name as it is a new paragraph. Failing that, could this para be combined with the first, for aesthetic reasons?
  • Redundent use of "labour".
  • "Where is Myrtle Street Children's hospital?
  • I think referring to him as Starkey may become confusing. I would refer to him as his Starr from the start as it is the name he was known for.
  • "Skipping class" →playing truant (it sounds less slangy).
  • neighbor should have the English spelling
  • Is ""Bedtime for Drums" a book? If so, it should be in Itals. If it isn't, we should be clearer as to what it is.
  • Do we really need to link mechanics?
  • "...coal-fueled neighborhood" watch for American/English spelling of neighbourhood.
  • "After his return from the sanatorium in late 1955, Starkey entered the workforce..." -- What, at the sanatorium?
  • "In an effort to secure for himself some warm clothes
  • "...he briefly held a position with British Rail" →"...he briefly held a position at British Rail".
  • "Trafford introduced Starkey to skiffle, and he quickly became a fervent admirer of the genre". Suggest redundancy of "the genre".
  • I think this section could do with an image. How does this grab you?
  • "Elsie was known for her beautiful singing voice..." -- POV unless it was quoted by somebody.
First bands
1957–1961
  • "neighbor" →BritEng
  • "guitarist Eddie Miles" → definite article would be better as this sounds a bit tabloidy.
  • "took lessons at two schools" -- Dance schools?
  • Do we need to link drum kit?
  • "Although basic and crude, the kit facilitated his progression as a musician..." -- Who, Starr or Graves?
  • "In November 1959 he joined Al Caldwell's Texans..." -- Introduction would be helpful here; ie, which genre did the perform in?
  • Why do we link "Liverpool Landmark" and not "Clayton Squares", bearing in mind the link takes us to Clayton Square?
  • "...that Graves had secured for him four years earlier... ." Redundant I'm afraid.
  • I'm not sure about the use of the word "gig". It sounds too formal. Might I suggest "performance"?
  • "Starr performed with them during a few stand-in engagements while in Hamburg, and on 15 October 1960 he drummed with John Lennon, Paul McCartney and George Harrison, recording with them for the first time while backing Hurricanes' singer Lu Walters on the George Gershwin aria, "Summertime". -- That's one long sentence, suggest splitting somewhere.
  • "During his first stay in Hamburg..." -- Who? We mention about 5 or 6 people in the previous sentence?
  • "...he also met Tony Sheridan, who valued Starr's drumming abilities to the point of asking him to leave the Hurricanes and join his band." Which were who?
With the Beatles
1962–1970
  • Link Pete Best
  • "Starr first performed as a member of the Beatles..." -- No need to repeat "the Beatles".
  • Link Horticultural society
  • "...Pete Best fans" -- Surname usage on second mention.
  • physical safety -- Redundancy of "physical".
  • "His first recording session as a member of the Beatles..." -- New paragraph, new noun.
  • "... for this session." -- Redundancy
  • "I thought, 'That's the end, they're doing a Pete Best on me.'" - space needed between closing inverts.
  • "I had to join them as people [sic] as well as a drummer." -- Can you clarify that this grammatical error is in the quote?
  • "Like his father before him..." -- Redundancy of "before him".
  • "...their loudest screams." -- Redundancy of "their loudest".
  • Did Lester go under the name of Dick? His article suggests otherwise.
  • "The extended non-speaking sequences had to be arranged by director Dick Lester due to Starr's lack of sleep the previous night, he commented:" -- Who commented, Lester or Starr?
  • "In 1964, during an interview with Playboy magazine..." -- We are already in 1964 from the previous paragraph.
  • "In June 1964..." -- No need to repeat the year.
  • Do we need to link Denmark, Asia and Melbourne?
  • "...15 June 1964." -- No need to repeat the year.
  • "He had his tonsils removed later that year during a Christmas holiday." Redundant (unless it effected his performances).
  • "In August 1964..." -- No need to repeat the year.
  • Do we need to link "cannabis cigarette"?
  • "Starr's inability to compose new material led to his input being..."
  • "At the urging of a long-time Beatles friend and collaborator, Klaus Voormann, during this time Starr worked on his guitar playing, he commented:" -- This doesn't read right: We have a leading line at the start which suggests Starr is about to do something, and then it goes onto say that he simply worked on his guitar playing. Could you elaborate?
  • "Epstein's death in August..." -- This would be an occasion when repeating the year is helpful.
  • "" Starr's growing interest in cameras" or Starr's growing interest in photography?
  • "program" -- BritEng variation needed.
  • "Despite leaving after only ten days..." -- Redundant use of "only".
After the Beatles
1970s
  • "On 10 April 1970, McCartney publicly announced that he had quit the Beatles. Starr released two albums before the end of that year: Sentimental Journey, comprising his renditions of many pre-rock standards which included musical arrangements by Quincy Jones, Maurice Gibb, George Martin and McCartney, and the country-inspired Beaucoups of Blues, which featured renowned Nashville session musician Pete Drake."
  • "Goodnight Vienna followed in 1974 and was also successful, earning Starr another top-ten hit with his cover of the Platters."
  • "Starr played drums on Lennon's John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band (1970) and Yoko Ono's Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band (1970), and on Harrison's albums All Things Must Pass (1970) and Living in the Material World (1973)." -- Do we need the first conjunction?
  • I think we need to elaborate a little when saying "a US number 4". Three things: Any further "a US number 4's et al can be named as such, but an introduction such as "Reached number four in the American charts" would be preferable upon first mention; 4 →needs to be four and What were the charts called at this time?
    • Fixed. While the sources are clear that the primary US chart is Billboard, due to the fact that multiple charts existed in the UK at the time, the RSs tend to be a bit vague about exactly which chart they are referring to. I use a Guinness source for UK hits, but they do not delineate whether an album or song peaked on the BBC, Disk, Melody Maker, NME, Record Mirror or Record Retailer charts. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Number 2, Number 1 and Number 4 need to be two, one and four.
  • "In 1973 he released Ringo" -- New para, new noun.
  • US number 3 →three
  • number 5 →five
  • "...consecutive hittop-ten, and "Oh My My", a US number 5. Goodnight Vienna followed in 1974 and was also successful, earning Starr another top-ten hit... ."
1980s
  • Overlink to Yoko Ono
  • "... a Britt Allcroft production based on the books by Reverend Awdry that was first shown on Central Television." -- Redundant.
  • " In 1985 he performed with his son Zak Starkey..." -- I would pipe the link here to just Zak.
  • "In 1987, Starr..." Why the comma? Just above it says "In 1985 he performed..." Needs to be consistent.
1990s
  • "...marking the 10th anniversary of John Lennon's death and the 50th anniversary of his birth." -- whose birth? Lennon or Starr?
  • program →programme
  • "McCartney had written a song about Starr's deceased ex-wife Maureen Starkey Tigrett..." -- Oh, Starr was already married? This was the first mention of this. I see later, it is mentioned in the personal life section, but the fact he met and married Maureen should be chronologically within the body somewhere if we are going to mention her death.
  • was the comma in "Really Love You," part of the title?
  • Was it credited to McCartney/Starkey or credited to McCartney/Starr?
    • McCartney/Starkey, per the album's liner notes. GoingBatty (talk) 01:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is "partnership" in quotes?
    • Fixed - removed quotes from "partnership" and "famous guests". GoingBatty (talk) 01:19, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
2000s
  • The first para has no ending citation.
  • Overlink to Mark Hudson
  • (The album's production credits read, "Produced by Ringo Starr and Mark Hudson; Re-Produced by Ringo Starr and David Stewart." All of the songs but one were written with (or by?) members of the Roundheads, although Stewart also has several co-writing credits.) -- Could this be moved to a footnote?
  • "...told journalist Peter Palmiere" -- Definite article would sound better.
  • "According to Palmiere, Hudson now claims..." -- past tense preferable.
  • as per earlier, check correct formatting of chart positions.
  • Overlink for Thomas the Tank Engine.
2010
  • "On 7 July 2010, he celebrated..." -- McCartney or Starr?
  • Only minor tweaks, see this, this and this.
Influences
Drumming
  • "Martin's version was, ..." -- Martin? Full introduction would be helpful
  • OVERLINK to Sgt. Pepper surely.
  • "...this about Starr..." -- Redundent.
  • Forced link: Who is Mark Lewisohn?
Singing
  • "Starr sang lead vocals for a song on most of the Beatles' studio albums as part of an attempt to establish the vocal personality of all four members." →"Starr sang lead vocals for a song on most of the Beatles' studio albums as part of an attempt to establish the same vocal personality as the other members."?
    • Hmmm, don't think they each have the same vocal personality. Changed to "...establish a vocal personality for each band member." GoingBatty (talk) 01:50, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He also is the lead vocalist..." →"He is also the lead vocalist..."
  • OVERLINK surely of all the songs in this section?
  • I would move "Good Night" to before "What Goes On".
Composition
  • "Starr's idiosyncratic turns of phrase, or Ringoisms as they became known, such as a hard day's night and tomorrow never knows, were used as song titles by the Beatles, particularly John Lennon." → "Starr's idiosyncratic turns of phrase, or Ringoisms as they became known, such as a hard day's night and tomorrow never knows, were used as song titles by the Beatles, particularly by John Lennon."
  • The first para is lacking an ending citation.
  • So is the second.
Personal life
  • What was the cause of the divorce?
  • Is mentioning the fact he was left handed and a vegetarian really encyclopaedic?
    • Fixed. (The fact that he's a left handed drummer is covered earlier.) GoingBatty (talk) 02:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Awards and recognition
  • "In the Queen's Birthday Honours of 12 June 1965..." Is this the correct name for this? The "1965 Birthday Honours" would be accurate.
  • Do we need to link Buckingham Palace?
  • Surely an OVERLINK of A Hard Day's Night?
  • "The minor planet 4150 Starr, discovered on 31 August 1984 by Brian A. Skiff at the Anderson Mesa Station of the Lowell Observatory, was named in his honour." -- Whose honour? Skiff or Starr? Obvious I know, but the last name mentioned was Skiff.
  • OVERLINK to Shining Time Station.
  • What was star inducted into the hall of fame for in 1988?
  • Forced link for Giles Martin. Perhaps say: "During the 50th Grammy Awards, Starr, George Martin and his son Giles..."
Films
  • "By the mid-1960s, Starr had become a connoisseur of films" -- Using "films" suggests that he was a film buff. "Film" on the otherhand would suggest he was a connoisseur of the film industry (which I suspect is correct).
  • "In addition to his roles in the Beatles' A Hard Day's Night (1964), Help! (1965), Magical Mystery Tour (1967), Yellow Submarine (1968) and Let It Be (1970)" -- Redundency of "the Beatles".
  • Why do we credit (and OVERLINK) Sellers?
  • OVERLINK to the Who
  • "He starred as Larry the Dwarf in Frank Zappa's 200 Motels (1971)" -- A bit stubby; could this be combined somewhere?
  • "He co-starred..." -- Noun rather than pronoun as it is a new para.

I enjoyed that. I will give another read through to check again and add any further comments into the relevant sections on this review. --CassiantoTalk 22:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support — Sorry for the delay. This appears to be a well referenced, well written and comprehensive. All of my concerns have been satisfactorily answered, and I fully endorse this articles elevation to FA status. -- CassiantoTalk 09:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments by Lemonade51[edit]

  • "...input being minimized during", given that this is an entry about a British subject, the spelling perhaps should conform to British English. So the bit-in-bold must be minimised?
  • BBC One could be linked under "...performed a duet with Cilla Black, "Do you Like Me Just a Little Bit?" on her BBC1 television programme, Cilla"
  • Ref 154's location is not UK, but London.
  • Where's the retrieval date for Ref 162?
  • Ref 203 showcases the 2013 Rich List, not 2011. Lemonade51 (talk) 02:56, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat[edit]

I'll also pop by and review shortly. A few bits of duplicate linking jump out at me for a very quick look:

Fixed all. GoingBatty (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Correction: GabeMc and I worked on this at the same time, and his edit beat mine. GoingBatty (talk) 23:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the help User:GoingBatty. I didn't know that AWB fixes overlinking! I always wondered why we had to do that manually and by eye, which I'm not great at. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After my edit conflict with you, I decided to run the article through AWB to see if it would catch anything else. The only thing it found were the duplicate links that SchroCat mentioned. AWB will identify duplicate links, but the user has to select which links should be removed. GoingBatty (talk) 00:43, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also wondering why these particular albums are shown in the Discography section? Are these his own solo works? Just a word or two of explanation to highlight why this selection may help, (before a drive-by editor starts adding a few Beatles albums to the list!). More to follow. - SchroCat (talk) 08:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. GoingBatty (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • "Elsie was known for her singing, and for her love of dancing". By who – and is their opinion worth anything? Why not say she enjoyed singing and dancing?
  • "Twice afflicted by life-threatening illnesses during his childhood": are one of these illnesses the appendicitis and peritonitis you go on to describe? If so, then the section I've quoted adds nothing and should be removed
  • "Upon his release in": sounds like a prison! Perhaps on his discharge?
  • "At age eight, he had remained illiterate": "he remained" should work just as well
  • "with a less than poor grasp of mathematics": why not just "with a poor grasp of mathematics"?
  • Odd to jump from his 11-plus back to primary school and then on to secondary school. Perhaps the primary should come first in the narrative?
  • "Spitz described Starr's upbringing": who is Spitz?

All for now: more to follow - SchroCat (talk) 21:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First bands

With the Beatles

  • "Martin clarified": did he clarify later, or to Starr?
  • "central character in the movie": it's only a minor thing, but "film" is more in keeping with BrEng
  • sort of connected to the previous one, but in BrEng there are no "movie projectors": they are film projectors

After the Beatles

  • I'm surprised you don't cover the UK charts for his releases, and only focus on the US chart. In '73 "Photograph" reached no 8 in the UK charts, but no mention, for example. Prior to that he had "It Don't Come Easy" at number 4 in the UK chart in '71 and "Back Off Boogaloo" reached number 2 in '72. For ease of reference for you, the Official Charts Company's archives for Starr can be found here.
  • "released Ringo's Rotogravure, album": "an album"?
  • "peaking at number 162 on the charts": I'm presuming that, as all the others have been, you refer to the US charts only again?

1990s

  • " Starr's deceased ex-wife Maureen": Eh? When did she die?

Will complete the final batch in a day or so. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:20, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks much SchroCat! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:31, 27 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Final batch 2000s

  • This is a tricky one, as it’s a trap I fall into as well and can never see a clean way round it, but the paras start as:
"In 2002, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In 2003 and 2004, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In 2005, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"In January 2008, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"On 4 April 2009, ..."
Done. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 18:24, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It makes the whole section feel a bit listy and I'd suggest breaking it up a bit.

That's it. The rest reads fine for now, but I'll give the whole thing another spin through shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:15, 30 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support My comments all dealt with. Nice work. - SchroCat (talk) 05:14, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check[edit]

Image check - all OK (Flickr, own work, PD-USGov, OTRS). Sources and authors provided.

  • Background check for Flickr images shows no signs of problems. GermanJoe (talk) 08:47, 29 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Jimknut[edit]

  • Infobox: Koch records Rykodisc Records -- Fix links.
    • I'm not sure what's wrong with these links. We usually don't include Records as it would be quite repetitive, if that's what you mean. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:56, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • No. What I meant was that they redirected to other sites. I corrected both. Jimknut (talk) 16:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He has been featured in a number of documentaries, hosted television shows, narrated the first two seasons of the children's television series Thomas the Tank Engine & Friends" -- Fix link.
  • "… and later Dingle Vale Secondary Modern School," -- Fix link.
  • "For their second recording session with Starr, which took place on 11 September 1962, Martin replaced him with session drummer Andy White while recording takes for what would be the two sides of the Beatles' first single, "Love Me Do" backed with "P.S. I Love You". Starr played tambourine on "Love Me Do" and maracas on "P.S. I Love You"." -- Fix link to "P.S. I Love You". Also, I think it's worth noting that the original single release of "Love Me Do" features Ringo on drums while a different take with Andy White was used for the Please Please Me album.
  • "In February 1965 Starr married Maureen Tigrett, whom he had first met in 1962." -- Why not put in the exact date that they married? I think it is better here than in the later "Personal Life" section.
  • "Following a business meeting on 20 September 1969, Lennon told the others that he had quit the Beatles" -- Fix link.
  • "Following Lennon's murder in 1980" -- Fix link.
  • "From 1984 to 1986, Starr narrated the children's series Thomas the Tank Engine & Friends" -- Fix link.
  • "Starr also portrayed the character Mr. Conductor" -- Fix link.
  • "McCartney's set came last, and towards the end he announced "Billy Shears"," -- Fix link.
  • "Starr's first musical hero was Gene Autrey," -- Gene Autry's name is spelled incorrectly.
  • "Starr is credited as a co-writer of "What Goes On", "Flying" and "Dig It". On material issued after the break-up, Starr received a writing credit for "Taking a Trip to Carolina" and received joint songwriting credits with the other three Beatles for "12-Bar Original", "Los Paranoias", "Christmas Time (Is Here Again)", "Suzy Parker", heard in the Let It Be film and "Jessie's Dream", from the Magical Mystery Tour film." -- Fix links to all songs.
  • Check all other links to make sure they do not reroute. Jimknut (talk) 20:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support — Looks good. My only other suggestion would be to consider adding one or more audio samples of Ringo's singing and drum playing. Although not really needed it might make the article a little more polished. Jimknut (talk) 16:21, 2 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Review by Evanh2008[edit]

Starting a review here. I should have more later today, and I hope to finish up by Friday.

Lead:

  • "Soon after" should probably be "soon afterward." "After" can be an adverb, but is more familiar as a preposition, so this probably reads better.
  • "In 1955" lacks a comma following it but "In 1957" has one. Either style is okay, just so long as you're consistent.
  • Probably could drop "Germany" following "Hamburg." This came up during the Harrison FAC, if I remember correctly (and that was in the article body).

Everything else looks good.

Early life:

  • "commonly known by his stage name Ringo Starr" could probably be dropped, since the origin of the stage name is covered in the next section.
  • I don't think "free time" should be hyphenated unless it occurs before a noun ("free-time activities," for example).
  • Wikilink Bob Spitz.
  • Maybe "false impression" could just be "impression"? I guess we're not really in a position to judge whether that impression would have been false or not, though he certainly wasn't in great health.

Very few problems here. Nice work, Gabe! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 20:38, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Evan! Nice to see you around and thanks for taking the time and making the effort to provide a review! Cheers! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:30, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, Gabe! The article is in great condition; much better than the last time I read through it. I see a support looming on the horizon. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First bands:

  • "Soon after Trafford had piqued" - Don't think this needs to be past perfect. Simple past should do.
  • "In May they were offered" - Comma style. Add one, I guess, to match with the "In 19xx" sentences.
  • "Hurricanes' singer Lu Walters" - I would remove the apostrophe. "Hurricanes" is descriptive enough without making it possessive.
  • The comma after "aria" isn't needed.

With the Beatles:

  • "whose car tires had been flattened by them" - Maybe simplify to "whose car tires they had flattened"?
  • Also, "tire" should, I think, be "tyre" to comport with British spelling.
  • Not a big deal, but perhaps it's worth noting that, for whatever reason (not sure if Martin's rationale has been covered elsewhere), the versions of "Love Me Do" and "P.S. I Love You" with Andy White made it to the album, even though Ringo was on the single.
  • "receiving an equal amount of fanmail as the others" ---> "receiving an amount of fanmail equal to that of the others". Does that flow better? "Equal... as" just seems like an awkward construction to me.
  • "make him ill', soon after a provoked Best" - Is this a comma splice, or was Ringo's comment in fact delivered after the lawsuit was filed?
  • "worked on his guitar playing, he commented" - This one's definitely a comma splice.
  • "had been covered in flowers" - Another almost non-issue, but I remember originally being under the impression that this was entirely George [Harrison]'s doing. I can't remember if some sources might disagree? If no one contests the idea that George was responsible for the flowers, maybe add that bit of info, but otherwise don't worry.
    • According to Lewisohn, the flowers were arranged by Mal Evans. The only source that I know of that gives sole credit to Harrison is the Living in the Material World documentary. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:22, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After the Beatles:

  • Just a personal preference, but I would mention that Paul played on Ringo's version of "You're Sixteen". It was a rare collaboration between the two in the 1970s (I can't even think of another one off the top of my head, unless there was something else on the Ringo album I'm forgetting).
  • "Lennon had offered a pair of songs for use on the album" - I think you forgot to mention which album. :)
  • Check "Following Lennon's murder in 1980" and "In 1985 he performed" for comma style.
  • "the animated program, The Simpsons, episode 'Brush with Greatness'" - I would shorten this to "The Simpsons episode 'Brush with Greatness'", though I can see the argument for keeping the introductory phrase in place. Either way, the pair of commas surrounding "The Simpsons" needs to go.
  • Jeff Lynne's first name is given twice in the second paragraph of the 1990s section. Since he's named several times in the surrounding prose, I think just the surname should be fine.
  • "In 1994 Starr" - Comma again.
  • Wikilink "Beatles Anthology".
  • "What Goes On" is linked under "Composition" but not under "Singing," which predcedes that section.
  • Link Christmas Time (Is Here Again) and 12-Bar Original.

Personal life:

  • "Soon after" ---> "Soon afterward", as above.
  • Referring to Maureen as "Tigrett" seems a bit odd, since that wasn't her name after the marriage (at least prior to the divorce). I would suggest referring to her as "Maureen" after she's been introduced, much as was done at Paul McCartney with most references to Linda.

Awards and recognition:

Films:

  • You may want to reword the bit about The Last Waltz, as I think the current wording could be read to imply that the film was a drama rather than a music documentary.
  • "in the McCartney's Give My Regards to Broad Street in 1984" - Probably just "McCartney's", minus the "the"?

More to come shortly... Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And that's all! Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 01:08, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All resolved! Thanks Evan! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 20:52, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments by Wasted Time R[edit]

I looked at this article when reviewing several first paragraphs of leads, and thought the lead had some issues, and when I went to the Talk page, I saw this was in FAC, so I'm not doing a review ... but thought I would discuss the lead here.

  • MOS:BEGIN says "The first paragraph should define the topic ... but without being overly specific." But the first paragraph here dives into excessive detail that does not belong in the lead at all. The only two Beatles songs that need inclusion in the lead as ones he sang on are "Yellow Submarine" (the only big hit single he sang on) and "With a Little Help From My Friends" (easily the most famous of the rest, and the one that he builds his concerts up to). What the lead should also say is that he generally got one song to sing per album.
    • I disagree; this is your personal opinion and not an actionable objection, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of Ringo's songwriting efforts need to be mentioned in the lead. The five songs being listed in the first paragraph range from somewhat known album tracks to near-obscurities ("Dig It"!?). In the scheme of things, Ringo's Beatles-era songwriting should be mentioned in the article body, but it never had enough significance to be in the lead.
    • I disagree; this is your personal opinion and not an actionable objection, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The biggest contributions that Ringo made to the Beatles after his drumming were in terms of his personality. The fact that all four Beatles had visibly different personalities was a big key to their success, and Ringo's element was vital. Ringo's extended "walking along the canal" sequence in A Hard Day's Night alone (which unfortunately isn't even mentioned directly in the article text, although it is alluded to) was a bigger contribution to the Beatles than any song he ever wrote.
    • I disagree; this is your personal opinion and not an actionable objection, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is there a long quote about Ringo's drumming from a relatively unknown musician in the lead? While the first part of it is apt, I'm not sure about the last - while he may be able to identify Beatles songs solely from the drum part, I doubt most listeners could except in a few cases.
    • I disagree; this is your personal opinion and not an actionable objection, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also, although it doesn't affect the lead, the "Drumming" section should really include Lewisohn's finding after listening to a zillion hours of Beatles sessions tapes that only a handful of times had takes been stopped because of Ringo mistakes. He may not have been technically proficient, but he was consistent ...
    • The bit from Lewisohn regarding Starr's consistency was not properly sourced. I own all of Lewisohn's books and I cannot locate a page number for that passage. If you know the page number I will restore the bit. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's in the original The Beatles Recording Sessions Harmony Books 1988 ISBN 0-517-57066-1, page 95, the 3 February 1967 entry, which finishes with Lewisohn writing: "It is true that on only a handful of occasions during all of the several hundred session tapes and thousand of recording hours can Ringo be heard to have made a mistake or wavered in his beat. His work was remarkably consistent – and excellent – from 1962 right through to 1970." Wasted Time R (talk) 01:02, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hey thanks, Wasted! If you only knew how long a searched for that page number while copyediting this article. Its a great point that adds quite a bit. I appreciate the tip! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:19, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead (and the article text) gives too little attention to Ringo's acting. The lead could name a couple where he got his best notices, such as That'll Be The Day.
    • I disagree; this is your personal opinion and not an actionable objection, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead should have a little more on his early-mid 1970s solo successes. I would mention three hits - "It Don't Come Easy", "Photograph", and "You're Sixteen" - as they were his biggest (looking at combined US and UK chart success as well as how often they are played now). Certainly these songs are all more important and well known than "Flying"! I would also mention the Ringo album, a top ten in both countries and clearly his biggest seller.
    • I've added a mention of his three biggest hits and Ringo. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:14, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead should also mention that his record sales dried up after that, but segue from there into the mention of his All-Starr tours, which have been reasonably successful. Wasted Time R (talk) 16:22, 11 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and support from Tim riley[edit]

Support Comments A few very minor quibbles and one rather big one:

  • Early life: 1940–1956
    • In this section you sometimes call him "Starkey" and sometimes "Starr". I think you'd best be consistent.
      • Done. I think I've changed them all now so that he is referred to as Starkey until the introduction of his stage name, Ringo Starr. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • With the Beatles: 1962–1970
    • "having honed his technique to a level previously thought unattainable in the UK" – are we talking about his dancing skills here? If so this seems a far-fetched claim.
      • I agree, and though sourced, its obviously dubious so I've removed the bit. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "During an interview with Playboy magazine in 1964 …" – are you not repeating a libel here? I think lawyers might have a view on this. Mr Best is still alive, after all.
  • 1980s
    • "to their slain former bandmate"" – slain strikes a rather quaint note; as you've said earlier in the sentence that Lennon was murdered I'd be inclined to leave this as "to their former bandmate"
    • "books by Reverend Awdry – a solecism in British usage (I think it is acceptable in US usage). You ought to say "books by the Rev W Awdry"
    • "In October 1988 … receiving a six-week treatment for alcoholism" – October and November, presumably
  • 1990s
    • "and—in his final appearance on a Starr album before his death" – which invites the question how many appearances he made after his death

An excellent piece of work. I'd be supporting straight away if it were not for the libel point, above. Can someone who knows about such things reassure me? – Tim riley (talk) 11:32, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your encouragement, Tim riley! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Later: a wikicolleague who is a lawyer in real life has reassured me that my concerns on the libel point are needless. I am happy therefore to support this excellent article. It covers all relevant points, as far as I can tell, without going into excessive detail; the prose is clear and readable; there is no evidence of bias. I avoid commenting on images if I can, but as for the text I think this article meets the FA criteria. The nominator may like to ponder the few minor points I raise above, but my support is not conditional thereon. – Tim riley (talk) 15:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the kind words and support! I've addressed your above concerns. Thanks for the review! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:40, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

John's comments[edit]

I started to examine this and stopped when I came to "A critically acclaimed actor, Starr played key roles in the Beatles' films and appeared in numerous others"; this seems a bit peacocky, especially the "critcally acclaimed". I'll give a fuller review but this wasn't a good start. --John (talk) 14:39, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and I've removed the text-string: "A critically acclaimed actor". Thanks for making the time to take a look! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 22:43, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Laser brain[edit]

  • At least one web source has a publisher and others don't. Please fill them in as appropriate.
    • I believe I've fixed this now, but my eyes aren't the best at this type of stuff, so I may have missed one or two. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:27, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Clayson and the Whitburn books' edition information doesn't match the formatting of the others. The problem exists in several of the citations as well.
  • You write the publisher for the four Harry books in three different ways—it's all the same publisher (Virgin or Virgin Books).

--Laser brain (talk) 11:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Prose review by Binksternet[edit]

  • Following the "gentleness" quote about Harry, the next sentence should return the reader to Starkey rather than using only "his" and "he".
  • I don't know the two sources for "irrational fear of conscription". How solid are these? It is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary confirmation. If the sources are not so strong, then the word irrational should be removed.
    • Done. The sources are quite clear that his fear was irrational due to his history of poor health, but I've removed the word nonetheless for brevity/clarity. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following this bit –"In mid-1956, Graves secured" – the instances of "he" are not so clearly referring to Starkey; they could be misconstrued as Graves.
  • The Clayton Squares landmark sentence has two instances of the word later. One could be changed to a synonym to reduce the clunkiness.
  • Starkey and Trafford took dance lessons, but what about this activity "proved effective"? Some explication is needed, or a removal.
  • The lead section has this bit of information: "...before the fad succumbed to American rock and roll by early 1958." Thus, the "First bands" section wording of "before the UK skiffle craze succumbed to American rock and roll by early 1958" sounds terribly repetitious. The second instance should be sufficiently modified.
  • Really, the bit about skiffle changing to rock and roll belongs in the next paragraph, where Starkey is hired by Caldwell.
    • As it now reads, the text string is a segue from 1958 to 1959. Also, since the sentence is about the Eddie Clayton band I think it should remain in the paragraph about that band, not the Hurricanes. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The change from Starkey to Starr is clumsy. A sentence should not end "soon before recruiting Starr" until we are told about the new name. The actual Starkey/Starr sentence is too long, with two semicolons. I think it should be split.
    • Done. Yeah, I missed a premature Starr, but its now fixed, as is the long sentence. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 21:49, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Following a mention of the French people, the next sentence says "They became so successful..." The subject should be made clear that it is about the Hurricanes and not the French.
  • Following a discussion of the Beatles and the Hurricanes, we have the sentence "Starr performed with them", which is not clear regarding which band. Binksternet (talk) 17:50, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The section "With the Beatles" starts with a sentence mentioning the Hurricanes and Rory Storm at two different points. This is confusing to the reader who might not remember that the two names refer to the same band.
  • The following sentence is kind of strange with he thought: I commented sounding like two different sentence fragments. They do not flow well... I think Starr's quote could be truncated and summarized. Here's what is currently in the article: "He commented: "I thought, 'That's the end, they're doing a Pete Best on me.'"
    How about this instead? He thought he was being eased out of the band, that "they're doing a Pete Best on me."
    • Fixed, I think. Your suggestion uses a subordinating conjunction to introduce a direct quote, which is something to avoid. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Calling the album track "With a Little Help from My Friends" Starr Time is confusing, as Starr is not given a drum solo with a spotlight(!) on the vinyl album. It certainly is a song featuring Starr's voice – no question – but not really Starr Time in the manner of the Hurricanes, or in the manner of a Beatles live show with a drum solo highlight.
  • In the context of making the Pepper album I see no reason to name those who covered the song "With a Little Help from My Friends". Also, it is not first "an Australian number one single". Rather, it is first a song written by Lennon and McCartney for Starr to sing, a fact that is lost. The named artists and the Australian chart position are distractions at this point in the biography. Binksternet (talk) 23:00, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In-prose dashes need streamlining. In one place, the spaced en dash is used for sentence interruption, while other such instances are covered by the em dash and the non-MOS spaced em dash. Select either the em dash or the spaced en dash and stick with it. Binksternet (talk) 23:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I will check the article and make consistent. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I could only find two examples and I fixed them, but if you can point me to any others I might have missed I would appreciate the help! GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:05, 14 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate comments -- It doesn't appear to me that there are any outstanding comments but, John, were you still planning to review? FWIW, you picked up the only statement in the lead that concerned me on a quick scan a few days ago, and Gabe's actioned, so that helped... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from The Wookieepedian[edit]

The solo section begins with "On 10 April 1970, McCartney publicly announced that he had quit the Beatles". Since Lennon was the one who actually split the band in late 1969 (which was also when Ringo started recording his first solo album), I think it should be changed to reflect that, and was wondering if anyone can find a source. The Wookieepedian (talk) 09:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • At the end of the section on the Beatles the article states: "Following a business meeting on 20 September 1969, Lennon told the others that he had quit the Beatles.[110]" Then the first sentence of the 1970s: "On 10 April 1970, McCartney publicly announced that he had quit the Beatles.[111]" GabeMc (talk|contribs) 19:22, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing

Someone needs to fix the sentence claiming the "No No Song" single was from Ringo. It was from Goodnight Vienna. The source given must have been mistaken. The Wookieepedian (talk) 05:43, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A few things, from JG66[edit]

I've been meaning to add some comments here for a while but have been too busy to contribute to wikipedia. Don't want to hold things up – I can see the FAC's close to being wrapped up. Besides, the article really is in good shape – it is such a pleasure reading those Early life, First bands and With the Beatles sections. The text flows beautifully, whereas I know I've been vocal in the past regarding what I see as too much of a list-like quality in other Beatles FAs. Not this time!

My only concern with the early sections here is how much detail, or rather, amount of text, is given over to discussion of Starr's life up to 1970 at the expense of his solo career during the 1970s. I think it comes down to there being too many quotes from Starr; at times it seems as if a point is made in the text, followed by an obligatory quote from Ringo, especially during the Beatles years. Examples that come to mind are "In a letter published in Melody Maker, a fan asked the Beatles to let Starr sing more; he replied: "[I am] quite happy with my one little track on each album".", "... he did not include a drum kit, Starr explained: "When we don't record, I don't play"." and "During his down-time Starr worked on his guitar playing; he commented: "I jump into chords that no one seems to get into. Most of the stuff I write is twelve-bar"." To me those details are all a bit excessive anyway, but losing them would certainly remove that overuse of quotes issue, in my opinion.

This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from that, almost all of my comments concern the first two decades of the Solo career section. As I say, I think that suffers quite a bit after the attention lavished on the earlier sections.

This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 00:03, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
1970s
  • The Wookieepedian beat me to it regarding "No No Song" ... Another thing to point out, relevant to the sentence that follows in the article, is "No No Song" was never released as a single in the UK; "Snookeroo" was the second single from Goodnight Vienna there (and it failed to chart).
    • According to Bill Harry, "No No Song" was released as the A-side to "Snookerroo" in the US where it reached number three; Billboard confirms this. The article does not claim that "NNS" was released as a single in the UK. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but that's only because you've rephrased the relevant sentence while addressing the error re "No No Song" being a single from Ringo. Beforehand, when I wrote my comment, the text didn't explicitly claim that NNS was issued as a UK single, but it was certainly implied: 'The LP yielded two hits, "No No Song", which was a US number three and Starr's seventh consecutive top-ten hit, and "Oh My My", a US number five.[120] While both songs failed to chart in the UK, ...' It's fine now of course. JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • While it's quite correct that "Oh My My" also missed the charts in the UK, its release as a single there came two years after Ringo. Because the 1975 single had nothing to do with promotion for its parent studio album, I think you could delete the mention. Instead it might be worth pointing out that the song was written by Starr and Vince Poncia, because the latter was Ringo's songwriting partner for much of the 1970s, so that way, it at least gives Poncia a presence in the article.
    • This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Also, the song was released as a single in the US in February 1974, three months after the Ringo album was released. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think you've missing the point: the song was never issued as a UK single in 1973–74; I was talking about the December 1975 (UK) single, "Oh My My" backed with "No No Song". This single, mixing a track from Ringo with one from Goodnight Vienna, was obviously designed to promote Starr's best-of comp (nothing to do with promotion for its parent studio album, in other words). That's why the text "While the single failed to chart in the UK ..." seemed/seems redundant, imo. Anyway, I'm not bothered either way. JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I get the point and I am aware that the song saw multiple release configurations as did others. I just do not see this as an especially important detail to the biography of Starr. This seems to me a bit of detail that is better suited for the song article. When we pump these bios full of excess release detail it begins to read more as a discography than a biography, IMO. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 02:02, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I still think we may have crossed wires on this. Are you thinking I'm suggesting you add something here? I'm suggesting the opposite, in fact. The relevant (excerpted) text in the article reads: 'In November 1973, Starr released Ringo ... The LP yielded the hit song, "Oh My My", a US number five that was Starr's fifth consecutive top-ten hit.[120] While the single failed to chart in the UK, the LP reached number seven there and number two in the US.' So my suggestion is to remove 'While the single failed to chart in the UK' altogether, because "Oh My My" was only issued as a single in the UK in the context of promotion for Blast from Your Past. It seems inaccurate to comment on its lack of UK chart success in a discussion on Ringo therefore. I'm not bothered whether you decide to keep it in, I just want to ensure the point I'm making is understood. JG66 (talk) 03:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, you're right. I missed your point; thanks for that catch. Hopefully this edit resolves your concern. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:16, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's great. Thank you! JG66 (talk) 03:25, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1973, he released two number one hits in the US: "Photograph", a UK number eight hit that was co-written with Harrison, and "You're Sixteen" ..." Firstly, is it correct to say that someone released a number one hit – better: "released two singles that became number one hits in the US"? Also, it seems that this and the next sentence belong in the following para, after "In late 1973, Starr released Ringo, a commercially successful album produced by Richard Perry ..." With the mention of "No No Song" now having to move, there should be an ideal place to move text regarding "Photograph" and "You're Sixteen", to sit with discussion on the album's third single, "Oh My My".
    • Changed released → earned, the rest is your un-actionable opinion. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know Evan suggested McCartney's kazoo part on "You're Sixteen" might be worth pointing out, but I can't help thinking that Starr bringing together Lennon and Harrison on "I'm the Greatest" is worthy of inclusion instead (that is, if a choice needs to be made). The session for "Greatest" was a significant moment, being the first time more than two Beatles had recorded together since January 1970. And it could only have happened on a Ringo album ...
  • "Goodnight Vienna followed in 1974 and was also successful, reaching number 30 in the UK ..." I'd qualify that it was successful in the US (number 8, I think?) – not just because that's more reflective of "successful" than a number 30 placing, but also, the album and its singles didn't do too well in the UK. The UK albums chart was just a top 40 then, and Goodnight Vienna lasted two weeks on the chart, I believe.
  • "The commercial impact of Starr's recording career subsequently diminished ..." I wonder if it might be an idea to introduce Starr's alcoholism here, rather than leaving it until the late 1980s, when he and Barbara finally sought treatment. Biographers (I'm sure Doggett's one, Rodriguez also) correlate his lack of success as a solo artist with his carousing with Nilsson, Keith Moon, etc.
    • This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Also, the article contains several mentions of his issues with drinking, from blacking-out at age 8 through to detox in the 1980s. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further up in the same section: "Starr played drums on Lennon's John Lennon/Plastic Ono Band (1970), Ono's Yoko Ono/Plastic Ono Band (1970), and on Harrison's albums All Things Must Pass (1970) and Living in the Material World (1973)." He also played on George's Dark Horse if we're looking to provide a complete list of guest appearances on 1970s albums by his fellow ex-Beatles? Alternatively, if the idea is simply to name a few notable albums Starr appears on, it might be an idea to mention Nilsson's "Son of Schmilsson" and (perhaps) "Pussy Cats", Nilsson being closely involved with Ringo throughout the 1970s, of course.
    • This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Again, your near obsession with mentioning every single musician Starr has ever worked with in the last 50+ years. I don't like overstuffing these article the way that you do and I won't go back and forth with you ala the Harrison FAC. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Towards the end of the section: "This inspired Polydor to revamp Starr's formula ..." I think this mention calls for some comment on Starr's previous formula – it wasn't just a change musically that Starr made with producer Arif Mardin for Ringo the 4th, but a (temporary) ditching of the all-star-cast approach that had been a feature of his first three rock solo albums. The issue of Ringo's reliance on his fellow former Beatles (Harrison, for instance, also co-wrote and produced "Back Off Boogaloo"), and other songwriter friends such as Nilsson and Elton John, is not touched on in the article, yet it's one that critics and biographers unfailingly notice. (The All-Starr Band being a full realisation of the "with a little help from my friends" concept.) To my understanding, that's a vital aspect of Starr's solo career, especially in the first decade post-Beatles. And if the point doesn't get presented early in the section, perhaps after Beaucoups of Blues or during discussion of Ringo, then a good place would be here, when the formula gets revamped.
1980s
  • First para. It's a surprise to see so much text dedicated to songs not appearing on Stop and Smell the Roses when the album itself gets such a brief mention. Perhaps the sentence about Lennon's two songs could sit as an end note, and mention of the Harrison-written "Wrack My Brain" single (a minor hit in the US) be added instead.
  • Also, no mention of Old Wave, nor that album he recorded with Chips Moman in 1987 that led to lengthy litigation between Starr and Moman?
    • This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Comprehensive and exhaustive are not synonyms. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Drumming
  • It would be good to see Jim Keltner mentioned. He and Starr had a long association, their twin-drummer partnership dubbed "Thunder and Lightning" – starting with the Concert for Bangladesh and including albums by Starr, Harrison, Nilsson and others, as well as the first All-Starr tours in 1989. I think it's a notable musical association, for a subsection about Starr's drumming.
Singing
  • "he also sang lead on ... "What Goes On", for which he received a co-writer credit with Lennon and McCartney." It seems that this detail regarding a co-writer credit should go, because of a sentence under Composition: "Starr is credited as a co-writer of "What Goes On", "Flying" ..."
Lead section

The lead is very long compared to other individual Beatle FAs. My suggestion would be to paraphrase Steve Smith's quote: the important point surely is the statement that through Starr "we started to see the drummer as an equal participant in the compositional aspect ..." Also, there's a feeling of the proverbial barrel being scraped, I think, with the inclusion of "Act Naturally" and Starr's co-writing credits for "What Goes On" and "Flying", as they're hardly notable songs within the Beatles' canon. I notice Wasted Time said pretty much the same thing in his comments, and it's worth bearing in mind that in the George Harrison article, such notable sole compositions as "Taxman" and "Within You, Without You" don't merit a mention in the lead.

This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. Every single Beatles article need not follow the exact format of the others. They are/were four different people and as such they have four different articles. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, and I don't disagree with what you're saying. But check out the disparity, in quantity and quality of information, between the lead in Ringo Starr and that in Paul McCartney. JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the Macca lead is a bit too brief and I've been planning to expand it for some time. I quite prefer Ringo's lead to Macca's, but that's probably because I wrote most of the content, whereas I seem to remember much more WP:PRESERVE regarding the Macca lead and at least one reviewer mentioned that it seemed too short. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 01:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing about the lead: "the US number one hits "It Don't Come Easy", "Photograph" and "You're Sixteen"" is not supported in the main article body, which gives the peak chart position for "It Don't Come Easy" as number 4. Those three singles were all certified gold by the RIAA, perhaps that's the statement to be making here (although currently the text doesn't state that "Easy" went gold also).

Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hope that helps. I wouldn't be presenting these concerns, so late in the FAC, unless I thought they were important to address. Again, great work – and to the editors/reviewers above. JG66 (talk) 17:22, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

* Note for delegates. - I won't be addressing any of JG66's comments. The two of us have had some pretty terrible interactions at FAC and I will not allow this to turn into yet another drama fest. We obviously have vastly different ideas and styles and I absolutely refuse to make any attempt to satisfy this user. IMO, their choice to come here now and provide yet another never-ending review at this junction of the FAC is in poor taste in the least. So please pass, fail or archive the nom accordingly. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 19:44, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I ask the delegates to please consider my comments and suggestions as actionable and worthy of some discussion (at the very least) in this FAC. You can be sure I thought long and hard before pressing 'Save page' on the above list, given my troubled history with the person nominating this article, way outside of FAC territory. I acknowledged the eleventh-hour nature of my coming to this page, and I would've thought other comments of mine show that I've taken the trouble to look through what other reviewers have raised here – trying to ensure there's some synergy between my comments and the good work that's already been done on the article. I've not had the time to do anything substantial on wikipedia since the start of August, simple as that.
In some cases, I can't see how the things I've raised can be ignored. The point in the lead stating that Starr had three number one hits in the US just isn't supported in the main article body. Similarly, with his co-writing credit on "What Goes On", it's straight repetition to have it stated under both Singing and Composition.
Fixed. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Less clear-cut perhaps, to support the mention of Goodnight Vienna having been successful with a lowly number 30 UK chart position is just illogical when it peaked at number 8 in the US and was certified gold there. Likewise, what is the logic, the rationale, for the brief list of albums by Lennon, Ono and Harrison that Starr played on?
Mentioned that GV reached number eight in the US. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Other changes could be considered "obvious omissions": no mention of his "Wrack My Brain" chart success (a rarity in itself for Starr post 1976) when two sentences of text are included on songs that failed to make the Stop and Smell the Roses album. Similarly: the lack of anything on Old Wave and the stillborn project with Chips Moman.
Added mention of "Wrack My Brain". GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I seem to have ended up identifying categories, for some reason ... Many of the other points I've raised came about through the sheer excellence of the prose and the impressive scope in sections leading up to the one covering Starr's solo career. Then the article appears to drop the (impressive) level of insight, and the complete lack of quotes from Starr is equally obvious. That's what makes it logical to suggest adding points about Starr's alcoholism coinciding with and contributing to his career taking a dive, about the reliance on friends and outsiders for material for his solo albums; just as the removal of some of the inessential quotes from the article's early sections might make the contrast less obvious once we arrive at the quote-less Solo career/1970s section. And I know I've read at least one other person objecting to the Steve Smith quote in the lead and the mention there of "What Goes On" and "Flying". I'd welcome the opinion of other reviewers here on those two issues – and anything else I've raised.
This is your opinion and not an actionable objection. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We do indeed have "vastly different ideas and styles". What I was and am hoping to see addressed is the way the style and approach within this article appears to change following the Beatles years, in the ways mentioned. (Not my style by any means – all the work of others.) It's a brilliant piece through those first three sections; I've not read anything this good on wikipedia. So I can't understand why someone would choose to ignore suggested changes that are aimed at ensuring those strengths are carried through to an equally important part of the article.
JG66 (talk) 07:40, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've done my best to resolve the actionable objections you've raised above. After 30+ days and 5 supports there is currently consensus for promotion. If you have any other concerns then please raise them at the article talk page. GabeMc (talk|contribs) 23:57, 20 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's good to see some of those important issues addressed. I'm surprised by a number of your decisions, but it's nothing I want to pursue here. (Perhaps on the talk page sometime, perhaps not.) I do think when you revisit the article in the weeks/months ahead, though, you might see what I mean about the abundance of quotes in the early sections and feel the need to cut a few – who knows. I've got no interest in delaying a decision with this FAC, if that's what my arrival was doing (I'd got the impression that user:John's review was still to come, in fact). Thanks, and well done to all, JG66 (talk) 01:26, 21 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I did indeed invite John to review further if he wished to but given almost two weeks has elapsed since then, and you and Gabe seem to have resolved your differing opinions to an extent you're both prepared to live with, I think it's time to call it a day and promote this. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:23, 24 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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