Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/R. A. B. Mynors/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 9 May 2021 [1].

R. A. B. Mynors[edit]

Nominator(s): Modussiccandi (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(The two week period between nominations was waived by a coordinator.) This article is about the Latinist Roger Mynors who wrote the standard editions of the Latin poets Vergil and Catullus. Though he's mostly known for those books, he did interesting work on manuscripts and catalogued several library collections. What's more, he is unique for having been the senior chair of Latin at both Oxford and Cambridge.

A recent nomination of this article was archived after it emerged that coverage of his publications needed to be expanded. Noswall59 and Llywrch generously helped me rectify these omissions at a peer review. These were the main obstacles at the last FAC and I believe the article is now in good shape. I will be grateful for any suggestions for improvement.

In addition to those above, I'm notifying all who commented on the last nomination: Gerda Arendt, Gen. Quon, Therapyisgood, SandyGeorgia, Caeciliusinhorto, Ergo Sum, Modussiccandi (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support I happily threw in my support last go around, and I still think that it is up to FA standards.--Gen. Quon (Talk) 17:25, 23 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Version reviewed.

  • "The final accomplishment of his career was a comprehensive commentary on Vergil's Georgics" - the text says this was done after retirement, which is correct?
  • The commentary was written in retirement and published after his death. So I would say the body is correct. I have adjusted the lead section to better reflect this. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mynors was knighted in 1963 for his service to classical scholarship" - the text says he was knighted, but not why - source for this?
  • I have checked the sources. They all just say 'he was knighted' without giving a reason. I have removed the unsourcable bit accordingly. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Source for having influenced Tarrant?
  • The source is Gotoff (1991) p. 311. I had forgotten to add Tarrant to the body but I've added him now. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Publications list includes ISBNs for items published before that system was implemented - are these for later editions?
  • These ISBNs are those under which the books are sold by Oxford University Press today. In his edition of Catullus (1958), which I purchased last year, the year is still given as 1958 and no subsequent editions seem to have been made. I assume they added ISBNs to their older publications once they were introduced. But I am by no means an expert on this. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hm. I haven't heard of this being done - is it possible these were reprints? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:59, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • They must be; the copy of the Catullus text I own was clearly printed very recently. Does this need to be reflected in the bibliography? Modussiccandi (talk) 09:30, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Nikkimaria: Is there a parameter in the "cite book" template? Or what is the best way to do this? My apologies for not pinging you sooner about this. Modussiccandi (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can use |edition=. Ideally it would be good to figure out the reprint date as well, but if that's not available just the reprint edition statement works. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:33, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • These sources are newspaper articles which I consulted via the online database Factiva. No page numbers were given but I presume these articles were printed on one page. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:48, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe they don't. I've tried linking Factiva pages in an old version of an article I wrote but was asked to remove them when they turned out to be useless by a GA reviewer. See n. 1, 15, 17, 20 in the version linked. Modussiccandi (talk) 09:30, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those aren't permalinks - if they exist they should be somewhere in the Factiva interface on the pages for the articles. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:15, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Thanks a lot for this. Please see my comment on ISBNs above. You may have a better idea than me about whether it's common practice to retroactively add ISBNs to older books. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 22:50, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ceoil[edit]

Not withstanding Nikki's points above, which seem resolved, spent a very enjoyable half hour reading over this today. The article is impeccably written, the sources are of the first quality, and comparing it as it stands now to when the last nom was closed; am confident that the scholarship has been brought up to date. Ceoil (talk) 01:04, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ergo Sum[edit]

  • "both of England's leading universities" - since link goes to Oxbridge, I think it should include the "both of"
  • "country residence at Treago Castle" - was his residence the castle itself or was it located there as just a part of the castle/copmlex. If the former, then I would remove "at" and offset Treago Castle with comas.
  • "Mynors' reputation is that of Britain's foremost classicists" - this strikes my ear as odd phrasing. Perhaps it is a Britishism I am unfamiliar with? He cannot be multiple people, so I think it would have to be "one of Britain's" or some other rephrasing.
  • This seems to have crept in by accident. I couldn't resist fixing this right away. I'll attend to the rest later. Modussiccandi (talk) 16:38, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You can use {{Marriage}} in the infobox.
  • I would link gentry to the appropriate article.
  • "as a scholar" - is this a typical way of referring to Etonians, or does it refer to a particular scholarship? If not, I wonder what it adds to the sentence.
  • Yes, calling him 'a scholar' denotes that he won a scholarship to go to Eton. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He became a fellow of Pembroke College" - this short sentence reads as a bit jarring. An "also" might soothe the reader a bit
  • Done. My drive to eradicate 'also' may have gone a bit to far here. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's generally preferable to have inline citations come at the end of sentences, or at least after punctuation. Unless there is a reason otherwise, Fn 17 can be moved to the end of the sentence.
  • n. 17 only backs up the fact that she was a medical researcher. The rest of the sentences together with the next one comes from n. 18. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eton headmaster Alington" - I think you need a coma after headmaster
  • "first as a joint" - I assume "joint" refers to the subsequent "editor." Because the two are separated by dependent clause commas, it might benefit to repeat "editor" after "joint"
  • "Church historian" - which church? Is it Christian churches in general or the Anglican church?
  • Gerald Bonner, whom this sentence describes, was a historian of the early church. That's why I chose the general 'Church' over anything more specific. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:20, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "autumn of 2020" - Per MOS:SEASONS, use of seasons to refer to a part of the year is deprecated. If there is a month, that can be substituted, or simply 2020 might work just as well.
  • Because it is a complete sentence, "beginning of the poem's sixth book" in the caption needs ending punctuation.
  • Ditto "In his retirement"
  • My understanding of British honors is minimal, but if I understand correctly, one can be knighted as either a Knight Bachelor or a member of chivalric order, in which case, they carry post-nominals. I think it should be specified which one was the case for Mynors.

A very fine article. Congratulations. I wholly intend to support, pending the resolution of the above comments. Ergo Sum 17:50, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ergo Sum: Thank you for a set of really thorough comments! I have done my best to address them. Please don't hesitate to ask if you require more detail on any of my above replies. Modussiccandi (talk) 19:26, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Quite happy to support. Ergo Sum 20:43, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, I participated at the peer review; now that topic-knowledgeable editors have been through, I am happy to support. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:08, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Noswall59[edit]

As I said in the previous review, this is a very well-written, accessible overview of Mynors' life. It now also covers his contribution to scholarship in detail. I have read Winterbottom's 1993 obituary; I noticed that the article barely mentioned Mynors' edition of Cassiodorus's Institutiones, so I added it to the bibliography and a couple of sentences to the contributions to textual criticism. Otherwise, I'm satisfied that this is essentially comprehensive and further discussion of his textual criticism, if more can be said, belongs in the articles about the texts rather than here.

My final comment is therefore only a suggestion for the nominator. Having reviewed the article one more time, I wondered what they thought about a structural re-jigging as tested in my sandbox: User:Noswall59/sandbox5? I'm suggesting this because, to me, it now seems odd to have the bibliographic/palaeographic and Virgil paragraphs in the legacy section when they seem more at home in the scholarship one. And the mentions of the Festschrift and Balliol exhibition probably belong in the honours section. This is somewhat stylistic, and it doesn't seem to have bothered anyone else, but I actually think it makes more sense... What do you reckon Modussiccandi? There is nothing which makes me oppose this at present but I shall hold off on supporting pending your reply on the structural question. Cheers, —Noswall59 (talk) 08:55, 29 April 2021 (UTC).[reply]

@Noswall59: Thank you very much for your additions on Cassiodorus; they go way beyond the call of duty. I've also taken over your re-ordering. Since the "Contributions" section is rather long now, I've considered adding sub-headings. All but the last and first paragraphs are on his critical editions, so two sub-sections would only be one paragraph in length. I've added them in for now, do feel free to tinker with them. Be that as it may, I should like to thank you for your sustained interest in the article. I really appreciate your effort. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 09:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Modussiccandi. I'm happy with the article now and have gladly switched to support. A top-rate effort and a model for articles on similar scholars (hopefully the first of many!) I've added one further heading in the section, but I'm open to there being no headings or to you/someone else changing this. I've also red-linked W. S. Maguinness. He certainly seems notable enough for an article in the future. Thanks very much for your contribution and for your patience and adaptability! —Noswall59 (talk) 11:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC).[reply]

Image review[edit]

Only five images:

  1. File:Portrait photograph of Rogers Mynors.jpg Tagged for deletion as missing evidence of permission. Since subject is dead, recommend just adding a template:Non-free use rationale 2 template to the free image and be done with it.
  2. File:Treago-Castle-375001 13a17522-by-Tony-Bailey.jpg CC-by-SA 2.0 licence
  3. File:Cristoforo Majorana - Leaf from Eclogues, Georgics and Aeneid - Walters W400118V - Open Reverse.jpg Has OTRS ticket.
  4. File:Beda Petersburgiensis f3v.jpg Published in 746. Copyright expired.
  5. File:Hereford Cathedral Exterior from NW, Herefordshire, UK - Diliff.jpg CC-by-3.0 licence.

One issue. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Hawkeye7: Thanks for the image review. I have talked to the copyright owners (Balliol College, Oxford) and they've agreed to upload the image. Apparently they haven't provided enough verification. I'll talk to them again in the hope that they can clean this up. For the time being, I've added the template to the free image. Let me know if any more action is needed. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:51, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Support All good. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:12, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Amitchell125[edit]

Great writing, I agree with all the positive comments given so far. Amitchell125 (talk) 12:37, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Spot check by Z1720 - pass[edit]

Checked and verified: Bonner 133, Fuchs 89, Gaselee 189, Gotoff 310, 310-11, 311, Johnston, Levine 416, Maguinness 198, Sewter 105, Souter 195, Williams 89, Winterbottom 389, Hamblen 22, 6, 1. I could not access Harrison, Nisbet, and Trappes-Lomax. Below are some notes on other citations:

  • For Gatch 543, I could not verify that "His was the first critical edition of this text since that of Charles Plummer (1896)."
  • Changed the wording to remove the claim that his edition "was the first since". Modussiccandi (talk) 10:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Gotoff 309, I could not verify that the translations were for the Univerity of Toronto Press.
  • It says " Another engagement of his later years was translating the Letters of Erasmus for Toronto". I think it's common academic parlance to omit the word "press" in statements such as this. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bethany Hamblen is not referenced in the article, so it should not be in the Bibliography.
  • You are right, I ctr+f'ed the wrong name. I couldn't verify, "In 1922, Mynors won the Domus exhibition", "In 1945, shortly after moving to Cambridge, he married Lavinia Alington, a medical researcher" (the year), "Most of his work as an editor of Latin texts took place during this second period at Oxford. Working for the Oxford Classical Texts series, he produced critical editions of the complete works of Catullus (1958) and Vergil (1969), and of Pliny the Younger's Epistulae (1963)."
  • 1) The Domus exhibition is mentioned in the first para. on p. 3. 2) year of marriage is now from Nisbet. 3) The source for the editions is now Gotoff p. 311. My placement of these refs was really off... Modussiccandi (talk) 19:01, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) Hamblen 2 verified. 2) can't access Nisbet, but I see the reference has been added. 3) Gotoff 311 verified. Z1720 (talk) 00:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Magguiness 200, I could not verify that "and added an index of personal names." or "His Oxford editions of the poets Catullus and Vergil in particular have proved important contributions to the field;"
  • Re. index: the source says "The provision of an Index Norninum, lacking in Hirtzel, is greatly to be appreciated", index nominum being Latin for "index of personal names". Re. Catullus and Vergil: I replaced this statement with a quotation to a similar effect by Gotoff. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Oliver 51, I could not verify that "Mynors' second critical edition was of the poems of Catullus." I was able to verify the other statements.
  • You are right; it's not in the source. That statement was derived from the publication dates of his books. Do you think this crosses the border to OR? Modussiccandi (talk) 10:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it does, I suggest putting the year of publication instead, or finding a source that says it was his second publication. Z1720 (talk) 16:09, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For Peacocke 325, I could not verify "At Balliol, Mynors taught from 1926 until 1944, a time during which he mentored many future scholars, including the Wittgenstein expert David Pears."
  • Sorry for this one. The source talks only about Pears. I have now sourced the dates from Nisbet and the rest from Winterbottom. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They maintained a close friendship,[11] which exposed Mynors to other German philologists, including Rudolf Pfeiffer and Otto Skutsch.[12]" Why are these two separate footnotes? Can they be merged?
  • "Mynors established a new text of Bede's Ecclesiastical History for the edition he published together with the historian Bertram Colgrave. His was the first critical edition of this text since that of Charles Plummer (1896).[40] Collation of the Saint Petersburg Bede, an 8th-century manuscript unknown to Plummer, allowed Mynors to construct a new version of the M tradition.[40]" Why are two footnotes used here for the same reference?
  • In the paragraph that starts with "Mynors' second critical edition was of the poems of Catullus." Why are there three citations to [32] in a row? Can we delete the first two citations?

Thank you very much for this, Z1720. Please see my comments on your observations above. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:09, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments above. Z1720 (talk) 16:09, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Z1720: I've addressed your new comments above. Thank you and best, Modussiccandi (talk) 19:01, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Spot check - passed. I have verified all references I had access to, as stated above. Z1720 (talk) 00:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from KJP1[edit]

I saw this excellent article a while back and meant to comment then but subsequently overlooked it. You have already garnered a clutch of, well-deserved, Supports and I shall be pleased to add to them. Just a few queries/comments that struck me at the time.

Infobox
  • “Sir R. A. B. Mynors” - this blend of knighthood and initials strikes me as odd. Looking at the Knight Bachelor article, and other examples of Kt. infoboxes, I think the usual form is Sir Roger Aubrey ....
Early life
  • “Mynors was born Langley Burrell, Wiltshire, into a family of gentry in the south-west of England” - there are a couple of things here: first, it’s missing an “in”, between born and Langley Burrell. More critical, I don’t get the “in the south-west of England”. Is this referring to Langley Burrell or to his family? If, as I think, it’s the latter, then I don’t think it’s right. The Mynors were Herefordshire gentry, and Herefordshire isn’t in the south-west. Assuming it is the family that is being referenced, then something like, “Mynors was born in Langley Burrell, Wiltshire, into a family of gentry from the midlands of England/Herefordshire”?
  • “The Mynors family had owned the estate of Treago Castle since the 16th century...” - following on from the above, I’d tweak this a little. First, I think it would help to clarify that Treago is somewhere other than Wiltshire, which amending the previous sentence may do. Second, I think “family” is probably redundant. Last, I think 16th should be 15th. Brooks/Pevsner in the revised Herefordshire Pevsner (2012) gives 1470 as the date of Sir Richard Mynors building Treago. Similarly, the Historic England listing [2], states “been in the hands of the Mynors family since early C15.” Although I see they use “Mynors family”, so you could ignore my earlier comment on this. So something like, “The Mynors had owned the Treago Castle estate, at St Weonards 10 miles south of Hereford, since the 15th century”?
  • “He attended Summer Fields School in Oxford, and from 1916, attended Eton College” - could you replace the second “attended” with something else for variety, for example, “He attended Summer Fields School in Oxford and in 1916 entered Eton College as a scholar?
  • “His precocious interest in Latin literature and its transmission” - it may be that there is no other suitable term but “transmission” gave me pause, and I think it may trouble other lay readers. It is meaning “the ways in which classical texts were circulated and preserved prior to the invention of printing”. We don’t appear to have an article, which would have enabled a bluelink. If there is no other suitable word, I would recommend an explanation, either in the body or by way of a footnote.
Balliol
  • “Hertford (1924), Craven (1924), and Derby (1926) scholarships” - well out of my depth, and certainly go with the source, but is the Craven a Fellowship, rather than a scholarship?
  • “focussed on the poet Vergil” - again, it is certain that classical scholarship has moved on, and Vergil may now be the preferred spelling. I only note that our article has Virgil, with “Vergil” as a redirect.
  • I have a strong preference for Vergil in my work related writing. Since both are accepted within the discipline, I usually take the liberty of going for "Vergil". Modussiccandi (talk) 22:19, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • “his being employed at the Exchange Control Department of Her Majesty's Treasury responsible for the administration of foreign currency exchange” - again, to avoid the duplicate, perhaps “the administration of foreign currency transactions”?
Apologies - have to break off now. Back shortly. KJP1 (talk) 14:55, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Pembroke College
  • “daughter of his former teacher and Eton headmaster, Alington” - while that may well have been Mynor’s mode of address, I think I’d also give him his forename, Cyril.
Retirement
  • “In addition to more leisurely pursuits, such as arboriculture and stamp collecting, his retirement saw work...” - Here, we disagree on the textual analysis. Aside from arboriculture not being a “leisurely” pursuit, the source describes it as ‘hard labour’, I don’t think it means “stamp collecting” in the “philately” sense. I think he and his wife jokingly called his arboretum, his “stamp collection”. I don’t think the text permits of any other meaning.
  • Well done for spotting a veritable mistake. I never noticed that stamp collection was in inverted commas. I have done away with "leisurely" and changed it to "an intense dedication to arboriculture", I think this is a fair representation of the source (if read correctly). Modussiccandi (talk) 22:19, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • “In 1980, the parish set up a fund in Mynors' name to be used on a collection of rare books” Two things. First, what parish? His parish of St Weonards, or the cathedral? And not sure of the meaning of “to be used on”. To buy a collection / preserve, restore it / catalogue it?
Critical editions
  • “Because of his reluctance to emend beyond the transmitted readings” - as with “transmission”, I think “emend” will confuse the lay reader. Here, we do have a redirect Emendation (textual), which takes you to the Process section of Textual criticism. I think this bluelink, perhaps with an explanation?, will assist the general reader. You link it two para.s down, but I’d given it on the first appearance.
  • “he rejected the traditional archaising orthography” - again, would a link, or explanation, or both, assist the reader?
  • I've opted for just a link. In this case, it's really only about an old fashioned way of spelling Latin. Modussiccandi (talk) 22:19, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Commentary on the Georgics
  • “the commentary fails to engage seriously with contemporary scholarship on the text, such as the tension between optimistic and pessimistic readings” - again, the lay reader, including me, will struggle here, [3]. Is a simple explanation, probably in a footnote, possible?

That’s me done. It’s a superb article. Is it your first FAC? If it is, my hearty congratulations. The prose, research and enthusiasm shine through. Shall be pleased to support when you’ve had an opportunity to consider the above. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 16:21, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you so much, KJP1, for your comments. They do particularly well to address accessibility issues which tend to be overlooked. I have agreed with most of them. This is indeed my first FAC but I've profited immensely from the many people who, like you, have taken the time to help polish this article. Do let me know if I haven't gone far enough to address your suggestions for improvement. Best, Modussiccandi (talk) 22:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It was a great pleasure, and congratulations again on a superb article. Thank you for such a fast turnaround on the comments, which fully address the issues. I’m delighted to Support and look forward to seeing it on the front page. All the very best. KJP1 (talk) 05:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment regarding infobox image: The copyright holder's permission has been processed by OTRS and the image in the infobox is now free. I've removed the fair-use template recommended by Hawkeye7. Modussiccandi (talk) 10:27, 9 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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