Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Paul E. Patton/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:57, 16 September 2010 [1].

Paul E. Patton[edit]

Paul E. Patton (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 15:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First governor of Kentucky to serve two consecutive terms since 1804. This is the second FA nomination for this article; the first closed with no consensus (a few comments but no !votes either way). Hoping for a more active nomination this time around. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 15:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - no dablinks or dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments

  • The method of formatting online references is inconvenient to the user, who has to look in two places to find the cited source. It would be easier if the link to the source was within the reference itself; thus ref 1 becomes "Kentucky Governor Paul E. Patton". National Governors Association. Retrieved 2010-02-03., ref 4 becomes "Paul E. Patton". Hall of Distinction. University of Kentucky College of Engineering. Retrieved 2010-02-03., and so on for the remaining online citations which are 6, 7, 9, 19, 22, 54, 70, 71, and 72. These can then be withdrawn from the bibliography.
  • Ref 51 is to a court case, but the information you give is cryptic. Use the "cite court" template in WP:Citation templates to give a more informative output.

Otherwise sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 18:54, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll meet you halfway on the linking issue. I've added the links in the footnotes, but I'd like to keep them in the bibliography just to give folks an idea of the breadth and types of sources used. Regarding the court case, I hope I have used the template correctly. I'm definitely out of my element with that. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 21:19, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image check: The portrait is public domain, the photograph has a free license. Imzadi 1979 → 06:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: "In June 2003, Patton issued pardons to four men who were under investigation for violating campaign finance laws." From reading on, I suggest that "under investigation" is putting it too mildly; they had been indicted, and their indictments had been upheld by the state Supreme Court. So I'd reword accordingly. This looks to me like a decent article that has been unaccountably ignored during two successive FACs. I hope to post some more comments soon, so I hope delegates will give it a few more days here so that others can join in and we get some useful comments. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I think this has been tidied up now, but let me know if it needs to be tweaked further. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments: Here are some comments on the lead and the early sections. The prose could do with some freshening and I am also doing some copyedits:-

  • Lead: rather too long and overdetailed for a summary lead. Each of the paragraphs after the first could be trimmed; leave the detail for the main article. Thus I would write the second paragraph:-

After graduating from the University of Kentucky in 1959, Patton worked in the coal industry for the next twenty years, He sold most of his coal interests in the late 1970s when he entered politics, serving briefly in the cabinet of Governor John Y. Brown, Jr. and chairing the state Democratic Party. In 1981, he was elected judge/executive of Pike County. After an unsuccessful bid for lieutenant governor in 1987 he was elected in 1991, after which he served concurrently as secretary of economic development.
Tough for a verbose guy like me, but I've given it a shot. See what you think. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early life
    • section name is a misnomer; it takes in 40 years of Patton's life including almost all his time as a coal owner. I would limit "Early life" to the first two paragraphs, and call the rest "Commercial career" or some such.
      • Valid point. Done.
        • Coal mining career? That sounds as though he was a miner rather than manager. Coal industry career? Brianboulton (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yeah, that's better. I knew "Coal mining career" wasn't quite right, but my brain wouldn't engage to come up with something better. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am against naming children who are not themselves notable, and there is no justification whatever for naming the Johnson children.
      • This would make that paragraph really short. I'm not adamant about keeping it, but I'm inclined to at this point.
        • My advice would be either to remove the whole last sentence, or at the very least end it after "two children". Brianboulton (talk) 18:45, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Political career (introductory paras)
    • Second sentence - don't use "later" when it is possible to give a date.
      • I'm not sure there is a date to give. I returned this source to the library a while ago, and probably can't get it again until this weekend at the earliest. Still, I've reworded the sentence to avoid "later".
    • "Patton sold most of his coal interests in 1978." Give a reason, e.g. "In anticipation of his taking up a political career, Patton sold..." etc
      • Best I recall, it was because the coal boom was waning. I don't think the source directly connected it to his entry into politics.
        • Then put that in, if that's what the sources say. It's too stark to say he sold his coal interests without any explanation
          • Done. It was actually a different source than the one cited that said that, but I found the right one. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • You need to say who Terry McBrayer was, and the "primary" should be described as a "primary election".
      • Done.
    • I have carried out a general copyedit on the first part of this section.

I will work on the rest as time allows. Brianboulton (talk) 16:44, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestions so far. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just to let you know, with limited time available I am concentrating on copyediting & will support when this is complete. Now that the article has received decent attention from editors such as Giants, Tony1 and Finetooth, I'm pretty confident that anything of significance in the content will have been picked up. Finetooth is now supporting; perhaps the others will, too. Brianboulton (talk) 19:08, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support after copyedit. It's not perfect, but few FAs are; it is very comprehensive and tells its story well. Further improvements will be minor issues. I have left a hidden comment in the Lieutenant governor section. Brianboulton (talk) 22:03, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1

  • This will be a "support". But a few things need clearing up first:
  • Overlinking: "coal mining", "pardoning", "patronage"—these are dictionary terms. In contrast, the "economic prosperity" pipe goes to a nice, specific target. Why do we need to dilute the high-value links with such terms as indoor plumbing, electricity, and telephone? "Honorary"? Why "mechanical engineering" AND "BSc" linked? Oh, "garbage collection", hello? Can you go through and properly ration the links, so readers will be more likely to click on them? There's "state senator" for a second time. And "public campaign financing" for a second time.
    • This is often a problem for me, but after doing another run-through, it looks like it was particularly egregious here. Let me know if you find others that need to be de-linked.
  • Red link: it's no big deal, and not part of the criteria here, but you might some time start a stub for "Fallsberg" to turn those two reddies blue.
    • I should probably look at doing that. I may check with the folks at WP:KY's Eastern Mountain Coal Fields task force, since that isn't really "my neck of the woods".
  • Judge/Executive ... no caps, please, as in the first sentence below that title.
    • Done.
  • "Passage of his higher education reforms led to Patton chairing the Southern Regional Education Board from 1997 to 1998."—Where there's an "of" to the right put a "the" to the left (The passage of); it's a rule that mostly works. And there's an ungainly noun+-ing construction. Here, you might consider the old-fashioned option of "led to Patton's chairing of". I'm presuming that the strong causality is important to express here in the grammar. If not, just "After the passage of ..., Patton chaired the ...". It would be simpler. Tony (talk) 07:03, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. Best I recall, the source indicates a strong causality.
Thank you for your comments. Let me know if you find something else that needs to be addressed. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Provisional support – I looked at the lead and some sections of the article and concur with what has been said above: that this is some solid work. There were a few things I could nit-pick if I wanted to, but nothing that truly concerned me. I usually don't like to fully support an article if I haven't read all of it, but if Brian finishes his suggestions/copy-editing, this can be considered a full support. Even if I haven't read the whole thing, I trust that he and Tony aren't both wrong on the article as a whole. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 01:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate the support! Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to everyone for your comments. I was off-wiki for the long weekend, but I will do my dead-level best to address these today. To the closing admin, please give me at least today to do so. Thanks. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 13:27, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support by Finetooth Leaning toward support. I did some proofing and minor c/e, mostly adding nbsps per WP:NBSP, changing % to percent, and the like. I have a short list of other concerns, none of which is major.
Lead
"Presently, he is the president of Pikeville College in Pikeville, Kentucky, and serves as chairman of the Kentucky Council on Postsecondary Education." - Delete "presently" and specify "Since early 2010, he has been the president ... and since 2009 has served as the chairman of ..."?
Sounds good. Done.
Lieutenant governor
"Just days before the primary it was reported that Cowan's campaign had sent a fundraising letter to a firm that his office was investigating for criminal conduct regarding state contracts." - I had to read this more than once to see what it meant. Would it be more clear to say, "Just days before the primary, it was reported that Cowan's campaign had sought funds from a company that his attorney-general office was investigating for criminal conduct."
Done.
Gubernatorial election in 1995
"He also used the Republican Congress' budget cuts to programs affecting the elderly against Forgy." - Seems a bit awkward. Suggestion: "To further undermine Forgy, Patton reminded voters of the budget cuts by Congressional Republicans to programs affecting the elderly." Or something like that.
Done.
Education reform
"that would allow students in smaller high schools in Kentucky to have access to courses like foreign languages that were only offered at larger high schools" - Since "foreign languages" aren't literally "courses", maybe "to have access to courses in foreign languages and other subjects offered only at larger high schools" would be better.
Done.
References
The citations to web sites should include author, publication date, and access date, as well as title, publisher, and url, if all of those are known or can be found. I see that this information appears in the Bibliography, but I agree with Brianboulton that splitting the details is awkward. I would suggest pulling the web sources out of the Bibliography and simply adding the missing details to the Reference section entries.
Finetooth (talk) 20:38, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still kinda tied to keeping the web sources together with the others in the Bibliography, but I could add that information in the References section as well if you really think it is necessary.
Thanks for your review. Your suggestions materially improved the prose, I believe. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You are welcome. I've struck all but the "References" comment, and I'm changing to Support. The article is solid, and the reference question is not a show-stopper. You might seek a third opinion about the reference arrangement and then go with the flow, if one can be discerned. Finetooth (talk) 19:00, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support when the suggestions below are addressed. Overall, a good article. Images look fine to me.

  • lead has repetition. We're told twice (first and last paragraphs), that he was on Postsecondary Ed council and was president of Pikeville College.
    • Fixed.
  • The proudest achievement of his first term was overhauling higher education - this needs a citation in the lead; it's a judgement rather than a dry fact and as such needs to be properly cited.
    • I remember reading that he said he was most proud of that achievement, but I can't remember which source it was, as that was months ago. I've tried to reword to make it less POV without a cite.
  • Do we know approximately when his father was hired by a railroad? We're told he moved often, and then that he stayed in one place to go to school, so I think a date would help put that in better context.
    • Again, it's been a while, but I don't remember any source giving a date. Since I generally include them when they are available, I doubt it was given.
  • I'm confused by this -> "established a work program for welfare mothers in day care centers" - is the program to let welfare mothers work in day cares? Is it to have day cares take care of children for a lesser charge so the mothers can work? This might need to be reworded
    • I'm not exactly sure what it means either; it's a direct quote from the NGA web site, and none of the other sources provide clarification on the matter.
  • At first, like Finetooth, I was taken aback by the website referencing. Once I figured out what you were doing, I was a little calmer. It's more normal (in my experience), to see full references in the references area, and then full book cites in the bibliography/sources area. I don't consider this a showstopper, though, because the article is internally consistent.

Karanacs (talk) 21:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I've always thought WP's reference formatting standards needed some tightening, and things like this are why.
Thanks for the review. Hope you will be able to support now. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 14:55, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, if only because Tony's review of the overlinking gave me my biggest laugh of the week: 'Oh, "garbage collection", hello?' Thanks to ACdixon and others for the necessary tweaks. Looks comprehensive and well-written. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  • I suggest you use the inflation functions to convert costs to present-day dollars($191,252 to $49,000, $5 million renovation etc.). If you'd like help doing that, I can show you how.
    • Didn't even know there was such a thing. I wouldn't have any idea how/when to use them. Any help you could provide would be appreciated.
  • However, he won both races by much smaller margins than in 1981 - I think it would be interesting to know what the margins were.
    • Added.
  • to companies who located in economically depressed rural counties - should that be " to companies that located in economically depressed rural counties"?
    • Changed.
  • Other candidates included Steve Collins, son of former governor Martha Layne Collins, and former Speaker of the Kentucky House of Representatives Bobby H. Richardson. - I think this sentence should be moved to the third in the paragraph, no the last.
    • Done.
  • Two minor candidates split the remaining 33,344 votes. - "minor" is a bit pejorative, isn't it? I would use "other".
    • Changed.
  • sent many of their legislators, including House Speaker Don Blandford, to prison on charges of political corruption. - I think they would be sent to prison because they were convicted of political corruption, rather than just being charged with it.
    • Yeah, lazy wording on my part. Changed.

Overall, a well-written, well-sourced article. Jayjg (talk) 00:45, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the suggestions and support. Acdixon (talk • contribs • count) 16:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • See here; there is a section heading with a "/", but I don't know how to fix it, since that seems to be the correct term. Can the section heading be re-worded? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:39, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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