Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Michael Collins (astronaut)/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 11 April 2019 [1].

Michael Collins (astronaut)[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (discuss) and Kees08 (Talk) 19:24, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Michael Collins, the third man on the crew of the Apollo 11 mission. He orbited the moon in his spacecraft, Columbia. As he passed around the far side of the Moon, he became the loneliest man alive, with the nearest two people thousands of miles away, and out of radio contact with both them and mission control back on Earth. Later he built the National Air and Space Museum, one of the world's great museums. The article has passed an A-Class review, which included source and image reviews. A previous FAC review was archived; it received only one review. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:21, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Factotem[edit]

  • Chidhood and education
  • "...to Virginia (Stewart)..." Presumably her maiden name, but without the nee (or whatever) it popped out at me as a rather masculine original first name that was subsequently changed;
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...but since World War II started soon after he was unable." I think there needs to be a comma after "after";
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...which his father had graduated from in 1907 and his older brother in 1939." Reads a bit awkwardly to me. Consider "...from which his father and older brother had graduated in 1907 and 1939 respectively."?
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He graduated on June 3, 1952, with a Bachelor of Science degree, finishing 185th of 527 cadets in the class of 1952, the same class as future fellow astronaut Ed White." No need to repeat 1952. Maybe, "He graduated on June 3, 1952, with a Bachelor of Science degree, finishing 185th in a class of 527 cadets which included the future fellow astronaut Ed White."?
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...due to the large number of young but senior officers..." Senior officers on its own is absolutely no problem, but "young and senior" was just jarring to me. Maybe "high-ranking officers"?
    No, we are talking about field officers, majors and colonels. Deleted "but senior". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Military service
  • "After entering the Air Force, Collins commenced basic flight training..." Not sure you need that introductory clause;
    Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Collins met Patricia Mary Finnegan from Boston, Massachusetts, his future wife, in an officers' mess." Consider, "Collins met his future wife, Patricia Mary Finnegan from Boston, Massachusetts, in an officers' mess." so that there can be no stumbling over the concept that Boston, Masachusetts was his first wife?
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After Collins was reassigned to the United States..." Do service personnel get reassigned to a country? I thought they get reassigned to a unit, but return to a country.
    Changed as suggested. I have a feeling that I was avoiding saying that too many times. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Test pilot
  • "...which included future astronauts Frank Borman..." False title, first of a few examples;
    False titles are common in AmEng. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Really? I was quite sure that false titles were frowned upon at FAC. If no-one else picks up on it, then fair enough. Factotem (talk) 22:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I cou;dn't find it in the MOS. Maybe someone else will know. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was accepted into the third class, which was selected on October 22, 1962."
    Hmmm. Changed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gemini 10
  • "...to calibrate photos taken in space with calibrated equipment in a lab." Is "calibrated" necessary? Would "test equipment" or something similar eliminate the repetition of calibrate?
    Re-worded.
  • Apollo 11
  • "Collins compiled a book of 18 different rendezvous schemes for different scenarios including where the LM did not land, or launched too early or too late." Had to re-read this a few times to understand it. The repetition of different is not so elegant; does it need to be stated twice? The main thing I stumbled on, though, is the list of scenarios; I read "where" to refer to a location, which confused me. Might this be better written as "Collins compiled a book of 18 different rendezvous schemes for various scenarios, including situations in which the LM did not land, or launched too early or too late.";
    Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...where they spent the first part of Earth-based portion of 21 days of quarantine before moving on to Houston." Earth-based portion? Can't it just be written as "...where they began 21 days of quarantine that ended after their arrival in Houston."?
    No. This was prompted by another editor's review. The days they spent in space on the way back also counted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough, but I think the sentence needs attention. There appears to be a "the" or "their" missing before "Earth-based" and there are three cases of "of" in quick succession; there must be a more elegant way of writing it. Also, it may be just me, but it really reads as if Houston is somehow not considered Earth-based. Maybe you could be more explicit about the quarantine period beginning on their return journey from the moon. Factotem (talk) 22:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Assistant Secretary of State for Public Affairs
  • "...but this was tiny compared with the 6,000 public affairs staff at the United States Department of Defense." That seems rather a random comparison. Why is it relevant?
    I think it is a good comparison, and it puts things in perspective. Note that Lee also thought it was a relevant comparison. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Director of the National Air and Space Museum
  • "Visitors saw Columbia in the main hall, Milestones of Flight, along with the Wright Flyer, the Spirit of St. Louis and Glamorous Glennis." Confused me because I initially read Milestones of Flight as another exhibit in the main hall, rather than the name of the main hall, which rendered the sentence non-sensical. Does Milestones of Flight need to be italicised, and would it be better reworded as "Visitors saw Columbia in the Milestones of Flight main hall...", as it (sort of) is in the image caption?
    Yes, the name of the hall was the Milestones of Flight Hall (today it is the Boeing Milestones of Flight Hall); but I didn't want to give the impression that it was out the back. Rather, the "Gee Whiz" stuff is the first thing you saw. Originally it was displayed like in the top photograph, which was taken in 2010. Subsequently it was changed to that in the lower photograph, taken in 2016, which means that you can't see inside it any more. De-italicised, and changed the wording slightly. Relying on the images to create the correct impression. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:19, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. Factotem (talk) 18:46, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Factotem: Are we missing anything here? Kees08 (Talk) 18:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still think the "of...of...of" sentence could be rendered more elegantly, but is in itself not sufficient reason to oppose. Bear with me please. I'll have another read through in the next day or so and give a formal opinion. Factotem (talk) 18:42, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing fundamentally wrong as far as I'm concerned, but a few more quibbles:
  • In the Fighter pilot section, "He was safely rescued and returned to Chaumont." I'm not sure this entire sentence is necessary, but if it is retained then I'm pretty sure that you don't need to state "safely".
  • Deleted this sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:33, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Apollo program section, "It also removed Collins from the prime crew of Apollo 9 and moved Jim Lovell from its backup crew to the prime crew to replace him as CMP." seems awkward. Why not something simpler like "As a result, Collins was replaced by Jim Lovell as CMP."?
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:33, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Other activities section, "He lived with his wife, Pat, in Marco Island, Florida and Avon, North Carolina until her death in April 2014." We already know that he married Patricia, so no need to restate her name here. Also, there's an implication in this sentence that he moved from the family home after her death. Is that intended? Factotem (talk) 10:07, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Two things here. First, the astronauts of the era had a high divorce rate. In Collins' group, leaving aside the four who died, 7 out of 10 divorced. Only Collins, Anders and Cunningham remained married. So it is worth stating that he remained married to Pat until her death in 2014. The other issue is our problem with verifiability. Our sources say he lived there until then. We don't know if he has subsequently moved. Or at leasty, we don't have a RS to say he's still there. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:33, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. My main issue is that by repeating her name, it sounds like it was another wife who happened to be called Pat, which actually goes against the idea that he was one of the few who remained married. That's just how it struck me. Factotem (talk) 20:48, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review[edit]

  • Primary sources: There is a lot of reliance on Collins's book Carrying the Fire, particularly in the earlier stages of the article – around half of the first 90 references are cited to this source. Relatively little use is made of other biographical material; perhaps little is available. Is there no other substantial work that could be called on? I note a biography is listed under Further reading, but that is apparently a children's book.
    After replacing a couple, I suppose the answer is maybe? The other sources do not go into the same detail he did. There are also some where he is giving his opinion, like that Dave Scott was his first choice, that are best suited as-is. I can see a couple more that I might be able to replace, do you think it is necessary? Kees08 (Talk) 03:32, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quality and reliability: Apart from the slight concern about the extensive use of the Collins book, the sources appear to be of an appropriate standard of quality and reliability.
  • Verification: I carried out a sample of spotchecks for verification and close paraphrasing. In general these checked out satisfactorily. I have reservations about one, below:
  • Ref 10: "After the United States entered World War II, the family moved to Washington, D.C., where Collins attended St. Albans School and graduated in 1948". Source only notes that Collins was a St. Albans alumnus.
    • First Man page 345 has the rest of the information. The citation location is halfway through the next sentence. Kees08 (Talk) 03:11, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:47, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • External links
  • All links to sources are working according to the external list checker tool
  • Formatting
  • Ref 55 appears to be in non-standard format, with link on page range
    Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 100 lacks retrieval date
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 101, 102 and 103 ditto
    Ditto Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 126: For consistency, "retrieved" rather than "accessed". I'm not sure of the value of this link
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 136 lacks retrieval date
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 145 ditto
    Ditto Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A couple of books in the list of references are out of alphabetic sequence: Carmichael and Shayler
    Re-sorted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:55, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton (talk) 22:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Brianboulton: Do you have any rebuttals to the above? Kees08 (Talk) 18:29, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sources all look good now. Brianboulton (talk) 18:38, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Balon Greyjoy[edit]

  • "worst four hours of his life in the right (co-pilot's) seat of a B-52 Stratofortress flicking switches while going through the initial stages of nicotine withdrawal."
  • I would change "right (co-pilot's) seat" to just the "co-pilot's seat" and keep the link to the page. The role he was filling on the jet is more important than the physical seat he occupied (even though it is commonly associated with the co-pilot)
    Fair enough. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:29, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would remove "flicking switches" as it's not like that was his only responsibility; he was flying as a co-pilot, and his job included flicking switches, among other things.
    That's what Collins said he was doing. (He also drooled a lot.) Deleted. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:29, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Collins, Michael (1989). Carrying the Fire: An Astronaut's Journeys. New York: Farrar, Straus, and Giroux."
  • Carrying the Fire was released in 1974; I'm not seeing anything about a 1989 edition.
    Good catch. Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:29, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Balon Greyjoy (talk) 01:07, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support per my previous review regarding this article.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:48, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as the issues brought up in this review have been addressed. The article is well-written, and delivers a very complete biography of Collins. Balon Greyjoy (talk) 13:36, 3 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, quite the well written page, and certainly does encyclopedic justice to Collins and the Apollo 11 mission. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:39, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

Most images have no ALT text. They all seem to be correctly placed however. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 05:37, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jo-Jo Eumerus: Anything else you need here? Kees08 (Talk) 06:26, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe some ALT text? I dunno. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:44, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Alts added (because I wanted to, not because I had to :) ). Kees08 (Talk) 04:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK then. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:00, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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