Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hu Zhengyan/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 15:20, 31 July 2015 [1].

Hu Zhengyan[edit]

Nominator(s): Yunshui 雲水 12:22, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Chinese historical figure, a painter, caligrapher and publisher who lived at the tail end of the Ming Dynasty. It's been a GA for a while, but I think it would only need slight tweaking to pull it up to FA status. Yunshui 雲水 12:22, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Johnbod[edit]

Comment The idea is that you do the tweaking, then nominate it here when you think it is fully ready - reviewers usually disagree on some points of course. At a quick look there seem to be some obvious links missing, and several aspects of the unfamiliar context of his life need more explaining, whether it is the colour printing (one of those missed links, I think) or the political context. But an interesting figure. Johnbod (talk) 14:23, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I've tweaked - but from previous experience, reviewers tend to throw up things I've not even thought of; the response to those points was the tweaking I was referring to. For example, I wouldn't have deemed it necessary to fill in the political background, but that's because, to me, that information is just a given (Oriental history being one of my areas of interest). I'll see what I can do to provide a little more context. If you could provide additional links that you think are needed, I'd be happy to sort those out as well. Much obliged for the comment. Yunshui 雲水 14:32, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
more:
  • The lead is too short; it is supposed to summarize the whole article, and doesn't.
  • The section on the printing -his main claim to fame - also seems short.
  • Rawson's book title is wrong.

Johnbod (talk) 21:45, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Johnbod. I've made a start on the lead (more to do) but I'm confused about your comment on the Rawson reference; the title appears to be correct (although I've modified the template to show him as editor rather than author). Please can you clarify? Yunshui 雲水 08:46, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It's her - Jessica Rawson. I see you just copied the BM's mistake, giving: Rawson, J., ed. (1992). The British Museum book of Chi. London: The British Museum Press. ISBN 978-0-7141-2446-9. Actually it's (in the current edition): Rawson, Jessica (ed). The British Museum Book of Chinese Art, 2007 (2nd edn), British Museum Press, ISBN 9780714124469. Johnbod (talk) 12:13, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant, thank you. I'll sort out the reference in the article accordingly. Yunshui 雲水 12:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
(That makes a lot more sense now; I'd been assuming that the book title referred to one of the several Tang era states called Qi, and couldn't work out why it would contain information about a guy who lived more tha 500 years later... Yunshui 雲水 12:22, 9 June 2015 (UTC))[reply]
  • Support The article has improved considerably since nomination, and is looking good. I'm happy to support. There's room at the bottom to promote at least one image from the gallery. Johnbod (talk) 17:39, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Curly Turkey[edit]

  • I had to double-check the source when I read about Ten Bamboo Studio and ukiyo-e—I'm not quite sure the wording is supported by the Michener source. It says the work was reprinted in Japan, but it says the influence on Harunobu was rather Mustard Seed Garden. Ten Bamboo Studio certainly anticipates nishiki-e, but the source doesn't actually say it "la[id] the foundations" for it. Also, I'd link to nishiki-e—ukiyo-e was already a century old before Harunobu introduced full-colour printing (and obviously Chinese printing would have had a negligible influence on ukiyo-e painting, which makes up a significant portion of ukiyo-e works). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 04:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense; I've changed the article accordingly. Yunshui 雲水 10:10, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd hope there'd be more images in an article about an artist—perhaps even galleries. The whole second half of the article is unillustrated. Goolging around, I can see decent images like these: [2][3][4] (the Harvard Art Museum returns 137 hits for Hu Zhengyan). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 05:47, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've now prettified the article with a gallery. Yunshui 雲水 11:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Feel free to revert any of my copyedits or to disagree with any of my comments.
  • He was best known for his manual: best known at the time, or is this what he is now best remembered for?
Changed it to "is best known" to clarify the timeframe.
  • The history is a bit hard to follow—we're told that Nanjing was "at the time" the capital, and later we're presented with the fall of Beijing. Reading up a bit, it looks like Beijing was the capital at the time of its fall, and that's what makes the event significant, right? I think it would be easier to follow if the events were given in chronological order, and perhaps with a tad more context.
I've taken out the line "(which was at the time China's capital)" - it wasn't the capital at the time of Hu's birth, and was only ever the capital of the Southern Ming after 1644.
  • He died in comparative poverty: compared to what?
Well, compared to the comparative affluence of his earlier life - but you're right, the word isn't really necessary; I've nixed it.
  • a noted exponent of seal-caving: does "exponent" imply there was indifference or opposition to seal-carving?
You're right, "exponent" probably isn't the best word to use here... changed it to read "a noted seal-carver" (and fixed the accidental reference to pot-holing that I'd missed at the same time!)
Huh? Curly, there's nothing wrong with exponent here! Johnbod (talk) 21:47, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
An "exponent" is "a promoter of an idea or theory". If that is in fact what he did, then it will have to be expanded on, but the context leads me to believe it was merely a poor choice of words. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it was poor wording on my part. Yunshui 雲水 07:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"promoter" etc is meaning 1. Meaning 2 is "Practitioner, adept, expert, master, specialist.... " (Chambers Thesaurus). Johnbod (talk) 13:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
But if it can be misconstrued - as seems to have been the case here - then it's not the best wording. I'm happy to have it taken out if it makes things clearer. Yunshui 雲水 14:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • he followed the Huizhou (Xingyuang) school: what is "Xingyuang"? Clicking through to the Huizhou article doesn't tell me. Also, Huizhou links to a city rather than a school of seal-carving as I expected.
Not a clue, sorry. No idea where I got that from now. Whilst trying to find out I've also noted that the Huizhou style isn't named after the city, so I've taken out that wikilink; by rights it should link to He Zhen but since he's mentioned in the same senetence I figure it's preferable to leave it unlinked.
  • founded by He Zhen: it appears He was a contemporary? Probably want to make that clear
He died when Hu was 22, but there's certainly an overlap in their lives, and adding "contemporary" make it clear that for Hu, this was a modern school. I've made the addition.
  • is balanced and carefully structured: could be considered NPOV. Perhaps "is considered balanced and carefully structured"?
Well, the opinion is that of a professor of art history who speicalises in Chinese art; I think it's fair to say her statements go beyond the subjective. My own phrasing is a bit biased, though; I've changed it to "Hu's calligraphy, although balanced and with a clear compositional structure, is somewhat more angular and rigid than the classical models he followed", which is a closer reflection of the original source.
  • It would be nice to have an image in this section. Perhaps even a comparison of a Hu seal to others of the Huizhou school to show the differences the text talks about?
I'll see what I can do...
  • Zhou Lianggong stated that Hu: again, it would be best to make clear that Zhou was a contemporary
Clarified who Zhou was.
  • Despite Hu's withdrawal from society after 1646, the studio continued to publish well into the Qing Dynasty, for the most part focussing on seal impression catalogues showcasing Hu's carving work.: this is uncited
That's from Wright; I've moved the ref to the end of that paragraph.
  • developing embossed printed designs: is this meant to imply he developed the technique, or merely produced examples?
Edited for clarity.
  • a technique known as dou ban yin shua : you produce the Chinese script elsewhere—any reason not to here?
I don't know the characters - they aren't in the source. Well, "ban" is 板 (block), but as for the rest, I've no clue.
I followed a Google "Did you mean ... ?" for 豆瓣印刷, but then got nothing but porn hits. I kept at it, though, and I think the characters are 饾板印刷—I do have to emphasize that I have no Chinese language ability, though. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:21, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Having said that, the "印刷" just means printing, and appears to be attached to taoban as well (套版印刷). You should eaither add a yinshua to taoban, or drop it for both. If it were me, I'd go with "douban printing" and "taoban printing". But again, I don't speak Chinese. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant - thank you! I've added the characters to the text based on the reading in the footnote at [5]. Yunshui 雲水 07:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • he was able to produce some of China's first printed publications in colour: it says "some"—does that mean someone beat him to it?
See Talk:Hu_Zhengyan#Earliest.
  • The volume used a form of multiple block printing called taoban : I'd probably move these to the previous paragraph. Also, were there other multiple-block printing techniques at the time other than taoban? Is it worth redlinking? And providing the script for it? If taoban was the only technique he used, I'd mention it in the previous section rather than here.
I've moved this up, in a way that makes clear that this was not the only prointing method availble. Again, no idea what the Chinese characters would be.
It appears to be 套版. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 21:21, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • which made use of his gong hua stamped embossing technique: I'd menion the name of the technique in the previous section, where his development of embossing is introduced.
I've done so, plus a found anew source to provide a brief definition.
  • Do you know of any images that clearly show the embossing?
I've not found any that clearly show the embossing in use; there's an image in the source I've added but it's small and very dim.
  • Any examples of the Imperial seal he created?
That would be nice, but I can't find anything that I can definitively state is the correct seal.
  • It's nice to have a gallery, but best not to get carried away. You probably want a couple of key examples in the body of the article, too.
Still thinking about his. I like the organisation of having everything in a gallery, but I'll have a look and see if there are any pictures which particularly illustrate certain elements of the text.
Okay, I've now added a painting which is a good example of the colour gradation in his printing, and also a double image comparing two prints of the same painting.
  • You should create a Hu Zhengyan category (and a Shizhuzhai shuhua pu subcategory?) at Commons and add a {{Commons category}} to the article.
Done.
Apologies for interjecting my replies into your comments, it seemed like it would be easier to follow that way. Thanks ever so much for such a thorough review. Yunshui 雲水 10:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I actually prefer replies to be interspersed like that, and I've never understood why certain editors object.
Somehow I didn't notice that you'd made edits to the article in response to the above comments. The article's prose seems fine to me now. I'll leave it up to you, but if I were the editor I'd (a) cut back on the number of images in the gallery; and (b) leave out most of the non-English in the lead (Shizhuzhai, Shizhuzhai Shuhuapu)—it's there in th ebody for those who want it (along with the Chinese script), and I think many will find it just distracting at the lead level. Not something I feel strongly enough to withhold the support I now bestow upon this article. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 10:31, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Cmt: I don't really agree re the gallery images, but I would move one up to the biography section. At the moment the first 2 are seals, which leave Western readers cold. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 13 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I too like having a reasonably substantive gallery - I don't feel that ten images are excessive. @Johnbod: I have to disagree regarding the seals, though; speaking as a Western reader I find well-produced seal script absolutely captivating. It's a shame there are no images of Hu himself out there; I went with his personal seal as an infobox image since such seals seem to be the only graphical "representations" of the man that are available. I will have a look around and see if there's anything that might fit into the bio section, though.
I've also expanded the lead and the information on his printing somewhat, would you mind taking a look? Cheers, Yunshui 雲水 08:19, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You've added "He employed several members of his family in this enterprise." to the lead, but I don't see anything about that in the body (which means no source, either). Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 08:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Curly Turkey: Biography section, second paragraph: where he employed ten artisans including his two brothers Zhengxin (Wusuo) and Zhengxing (Zizhu) and his sons Qipu and Qiyi (Zhigua), sourced to Wright. Many thanks for the support vote, by the way! Yunshui 雲水 08:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm considering the image below for inclusion in the Biography section, per User:Johnbod's suggestion; any thoughts? Yunshui 雲水 11:38, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A model of the city of Nanjing at the time Hu lived there
That one doesn't do much for me, I'm afraid. Johnbod (talk) 13:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Me neither, to be honest (otherwise I'd just have stuck it in the article) but I'm struggling to come up with a suitable free image that illustrates his biography. Any suggestions would be welcomed. Yunshui 雲水 08:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnbod: Cobblet has come up with a much better image (in the article now); what do you think? Yunshui 雲水 08:04, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Great stuff! Johnbod (talk) 11:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Hu_Zhengyans_seal.JPG: should include licensing status of original work as well
  • File:Hu_Zhengyan_Seal2.PNG should use life+100. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:38, 8 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Is there a specific template for including the licence of the original image? I don't know of one, and haven't been able to find anything appropriate. Or do I just need to add the {{PD-Art}} template (with appropriate parameters)? Thanks, Yunshui 雲水 07:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Second one is fixed. Yunshui 雲水 08:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The image is essentially a derivative work - the derivative is claimed to be under CC, but the work it's derived from is life+100. Here is one possible way to address that, though there are others. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:05, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Thanks; I thought there might be some template for derivative works to display both licences. Both files now updated, much obliged for your review. Yunshui 雲水 12:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • I would mention (or at least link) that Hu was an exponent of Chinese woodblock printing, not European style printing.
I've redirected the link in the lead to go directly to Color_printing#China - good idea.
  • His place of birth appears to be referenced to Wen Huilin's book, which is stated to be unreliable. The information should be described as dubious or referenced to a reliable source.
Good point; that info actually comes from Wright (cited at the end of the paragraph). I've added an extra reference after the sentence about his birthplace to make it clear what is being cited from which source.
  • Nothing on parents, wife, number of children. If this is unknown, you should say so. Some details are clearly available as you mention brothers and sons.
There's very little, at least in English. Once source makes a passing mention that his wife was called Wu (now added in the biography section) and Wright mentions his brothers and (very briefly) the two sons.
  • Presumably the Ten Bamboo Studio was in Nanjing, but you should say so.
Fair point; I've done so.
  • "his sons Qipu and Qiyi (Zhigua). You say his family name was Hu. What is the significance of Zhigua?
That's Hu Qiyi's courtesy name. I can't find a record of Qipu's, assuming he had one.
  • Is it known where he lived after he retired.
None of the sources say; the consensus is that he "retired from public life", but whether he remained at the Ten Bamboo Studio or left to live somewhere else is not made clear in any English source.
  • " producing personal seals for numerous contemporary dignitaries" I think the word "contemporary" is superfluous.
I agree, and have removed it.

Dudley Miles (talk) 19:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Dudley Miles: Many thanks for taking the time to review. As with Curly Turkey's review above, I've interspersed my comments with your own; please let me know if you've prefer my reply to be reformatted. Yunshui 雲水 08:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support. A first mrate article. You do not need to comment on interspersing your replies - I would say that is the usual and best way of doing it. Just one other point. I would have the first courtesy name as Zhengxin (courtesy name Wusuo) to explain the meaning of the names in brackets. Dudley Miles (talk) 08:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a good idea; I will do so. Thank you very much for your review and support! Yunshui 雲水 09:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Dudley Miles: I'm pretty sure Yunshui's apologizing to cover his ass in case someone spazzes out because the talk page guidelines nonsensically prohibit interspersing comments in such a way. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ah - so that explains the irritating failure of some nominators to explain their responses to comments! Dudley Miles (talk) 08:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cobblet[edit]

A much welcome article on one of the highlights of Chinese art.

  • I added a picture of his former residence in Xiuning to the Biography section.
Thank you so much, that's perfect!
  • What's the source for his birthplace being "the town of Xinan"? I'm guessing this might be referring to 新安郡 which was a former commandery straddling the border between Anhui and Zhejiang (and did not seem to contain Xiuning in its borders), and I didn't find anything suggesting it was still in existence during the Ming dynasty.
Honestly, I don't know where I got that from now. It doesn't seem to be in the source. I've removed the specific town, since the most the source says is that he hailed from Xiuning.
  • His courtesy name Yuecong (曰从) needs to be given clearly. We could also really use Chinese names of his family members (e.g. his elder brother was 胡正心, his sons were 胡其朴 and 胡其毅 (courtesy name 致果, Zhiguo not Zhigua).
Thank you again - locating copiable Chinese characters for these had stumped me, which is why they weren't in the text. If you can locate the characters for Zhengxing (Zizhu) and Wusuo (I know what they look like, but can't type them) I'd be very grateful. The additions above have now been made.
  • Gonghua should be 拱花, not 空花. Ditto for gongban (拱板 not 空板).
Looks like you're right - fixed.
  • The lead needs to explicitly mention the fact he pioneered new techniques in Chinese printmaking. Right now there's little sign of how important his role was in the development of the art form. We are speaking after all of "one of the world's masterpieces of color printing" [6], that showed "for the first time in Chinese art a systematic approach to the study of painting." [7]
Added an extra line to emphasise this.
  • Can we get a more extensive list of his publications?
I think so, I will work on that today.
  • I found an extensive article on Ten Bamboo studio in Chinese that sheds light on some important biographical details, such as Hu's background as a physician.
Excellent - but unfortunately I can't read (or, as we've established above, write) Chinese, and Google Translate is not particularly helpful (sample of translated text: "family background chopsticks book, not shoulder basket plow"). I'll try and tease out some useable information, but would you mind if I ran the edits past you first, to check that the source actually says what my interpretation of Google's gibberish thinks it does?

Cobblet (talk) 17:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Cobblet: Many thanks for these extremely helpful suggestions and additions. Yunshui 雲水 07:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cobblet: I've expanded the Major works section to include some of his other major publications (outside the sphere of art and printing). However, I could really use a bit of help here; I'd like to add the Chinese characters for these books but really don't know where to begin. If you could lend a hand with the translation, it would be greatly appreciated.
On a related note, I really can't glean anything useful from the Zhuoke Arts website; in Google translate it's just nonsensical for the most part. Could I ask you the enormous favour of looking through it and suggesting any tidbits of information that would be appropriate for the article, so that I can work them in?
Much obliged, Yunshui 雲水 08:36, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cobblet: You, sir, are a marvel. One of the best things about making occasional forays into FA territory is that one meets some exemplorary helpful editors; this is proving to be no exception. Thank you very much indeed - if I may make one final imposition, can you offer a sensible translation of "牌統浮玉"? Yunshui 雲水 14:20, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is such a cool topic I can't help myself :) Fuyu (浮玉) means "abode of the immortals"; the term's being used metaphorically – think along the lines of Gradus ad Parnassum – and I don't know how one would translate it idiomatically. I'll work on adding biographical details from the Chinese article tonight or tomorrow. Cobblet (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cobblet: So perhaps: "Tile System (or Domino System) of the Abode of the Immortals"? Yunshui 雲水 13:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's better to leave it untranslated if we can't find a source for a translation. Cobblet (talk) 01:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice to furnish readers with a translation, I think - currently it's the only untranslated title in the article (and at the moment it looks as though 牌統浮玉 means "Chinese dominoes"; I'll fix that). Translations aren't considered original research, but I'd prefer to use yours to mine since you actually speak the language!
As far as I can tell - and I've looked pretty hard - there's no English translation of the book's title out there; if we do translate it, it'll have to be our own work. Yunshui 雲水 12:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately I don't speak Classical Chinese and I had to do some googling to find out what fuyu means (it's literally "floating jade"; "domino system floating jade" – hmm) and I couldn't find a good enough explanation for me to be absolutely sure this is its correct meaning. Cobblet (talk) 15:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
More comments from Cobblet[edit]
  • What's the source for the name "Ku Yueh-Tsung"? Yueh-Tsung is the Wade–Giles romanization of Yuecong but I'm not sure where "Ku" would've come from – is it just a typo? Also Hu's Chinese name should be in the infobox.
Sources is here - might be a typo in the original, I don't know. Romanisation of Chinese is a bit of a 'mare, as I'm sure you know! Added a native_name parameter to the infobox.
On further consideration, perhaps we ought to remove "Ku Yueh-Tsung". It looks to be an erroneous form of the Wade-Giles romanisation "Hu Yueh-Tsung", which is already covered in the text. I've not found any other examples, nor does there seem to be any precendent for rendering 胡 as "Ku" in any romanisation system. Any thoughts?
  • The age range in the infobox contradicts the text in the article, and it seems generally accepted he was at least 90 when he died (I've seen 91 in some Chinese sources). Perhaps the uncertainty in the dates as discussed by Wright should be briefly noted in the biography. (fixed myself)
Thanks.
  • Given that Digutang was definitely still publishing in the 1650s, 1619–1646 cannot be correct for the "years active" field of the infobox. I don't think we know with certainty when he began and ended his publishing career.
It seems implied in Wright and a couple of other sources that he gave up publishing after the death of Zhou Yousong (with the studio continuing under the direction of his brothers), but since no date is stated I'll take it out.
  • Noted the improvements to the lead, although I think we could still go further. I understand the WP:SUBJECTIVE concerns but when an artist's work receives as much strongly worded acclaim from experts as Hu's I think the lead should reflect this in some way. At least it should be pointed out that Chinese woodblock printing reached its highest standards in the late Ming and Hu's work exemplifies it.
I'll have a think about how best to word something around this.
Perhaps this source might be helpful – it notes colour printing as possibly Ming xylography's most important achievement, and also makes a favourable direct comparison between Hu Zhengyan's work and the Manual of the Mustard Seed Garden. Cobblet (talk) 16:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I note Wright says "by 1619", not "around 1619". The Chinese source I'll be working on conjectures the move to Nanjing happened around 1615-1616. (fixed myself)
Again, thanks.
  • After the most recently added publications the heading "Major works" no longer seems appropriate. Also you may want to continue providing dates for these works where they're available.
I've put in a subheading; will look into dates when I have a bit more time.
Dates now added for those I can be certain of.
  • The publication names in the Biography section use sentence-case capitalization but those in the rest of the article use title case. IIRC the MOS calls for the latter.
Been meaning to fix that for ages - now done.

The article could still use attention from a MOS guru (for instance right now the article consistently uses only traditional Chinese characters except for his (courtesy) name where I gave both; what's the policy on this for historical Chinese articles?) but it's looking pretty good to me now. Cobblet (talk) 15:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'll do some scouring of the MOS and see what I can come up with. Thank you so much for your additions to the Bio section; it looks much better now. Yunshui 雲水 10:20, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cobblet: It looks fairly MOS compliant - now that Huizhou is (correctly!) wikilinked, the MOS indicates the removal of the Chinese text (done) but that was the only glaring error. It also requires a pinyin version with tonal marks in the initial {{zh}} template, which I've added. There doesn't seem to be any preference for simplified or traditional, though it's suggested that authors consider using simplified as well as traditional if there's a difference (which in the case of his full name, there isn't, I don't think). Yunshui 雲水 09:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You assume correctly. I think it's best we remove the "Ku Yueh-Tsung" spelling – I can't find evidence of any variety of Chinese pronouncing 胡 as Ku.
I just realized I didn't actually change his age at death as given in the infobox. It seems generally accepted that he was at least 90 years old when he died (Lü Liuliang recorded Hu's age as 90 at the time of his visit); maybe it's a better idea to just use the death-date template rather than the one that gives the age as well. Cobblet (talk) 10:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken out the "Ku Yueh-Tsung" spelling. The docs for the infobox and subtemplates recommend using {{death year and age}} in uncertain cases to give an approximate ages, so I reckon that the current infobox is okay (there isn't a {{death year}} template, and {{death-date}} requires day and month parameters). Either that or we should go with "unknown", but a couple of sources do try to pin down his year of death - I think what we have now is probably the best compromise. Yunshui 雲水 11:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How about {{BirthDeathAge}}? Looks like it can just take the year of death and not specify an age. Cobblet (talk) 21:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Cobblet: Never seen that one before - but yep, it seems to work! Yunshui 雲水 07:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While I'd like to see Hu's notability established a bit more clearly in the lead, I think the article as it stands meets the featured article criteria and I support its promotion. Cobblet (talk) 18:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Adam Cuerden[edit]

Alright. Let's see. Given that the most important thing is his work, having the building be the largest image is strange at the least.

  • 100px wide is way too small for [[:File:Hu Zhengyan Seal Comp.jpg].
  • I'm not clear what the pair of images labelled "Two prints of the same painting, Bamboo in Snow..." is meant to show.

I think you get the idea. I'm happy to re-review, even help out if you need it, but this isn't quite good enough as yet. Adam Cuerden (talk) 11:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Adam, thanks for the review. It's nice to have an image reviewer on board too. Before I make your suggested changes, can I just get you to expand a bit on a couple of things, so that I don't just make things worse (images are not my strong point!).
  • Regarding the picture of the building, would you suggest making that image smaller or the others in the article larger?
  • Regarding the picture of the seals, can you suggest a preferable size?
  • I'm fairly certain File:Zou Zhilin, letter on decorative paper.PNG is a black-and-white copy of a colour original (which I've not been able to locate anywhere); is this an issue? I wasn't aware that the IUP had anything to say on the matter, though I'm happy to be corrected. (I have, however, converted it to an upright image, which should hopefully resolve the size issue for you).
  • The two images of "Bamboo in snow" were meant to show the differences from separate print runs, but to be honest, you're right; it isn't clear that they're meant to do that and it's hard to see any differences at that size anyway. I think I may take that image out.
  • And as for the quality - yes, that's my fault; my snip tool is old and sucky. If you're able to derive higher-quality uploads from the sources, you'd have my undying gratitude.
Much obliged for the review and the offer of assistance; thanks for pitching in. Yunshui 雲水 12:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Quick ping to flag this on your radar again @Adam Cuerden:. Yunshui 雲水 08:10, 13 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry this took a bit. It's... not been a good week. Will do what I can. Adam Cuerden (talk) 02:34, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Adam Cuerden: I'm sorry to hear that. Any assistance is appreciated. I've adjusted the house and seal images to 150px each, so if your happy with that yuou can ignore my first two questions above. Yunshui 雲水 10:35, 20 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can afford to promote this now and leave further discussion to the article talk page. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:19, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Has anyone here conducted a source review for formatting/reliability? If not, a request can be posted at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:43, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea; review requested. Yunshui 雲水 07:55, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • No deadlinks, so that's good.
  • Foreign language sources are fine, of course, but it's traditional to use the language= tag to indicate that they're non-English.
  • Footnote 16 has an access date, but the site actually has a copyright date, too, which should be added.
  • Footnote 21 has the beginning of a page range, but not the end.
  • Footnote 28, the title should be capitalized.
  • Everything else looks fine, text has the appropriate level of citation throughout. --Coemgenus (talk) 13:32, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Brilliant, thank you Coemgenus. I've now fixed the issues raised above, if you want to do another quick check. Yunshui 雲水 13:38, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That all looks fine. No other issues remain that I can see. Good luck! --Coemgenus (talk) 14:42, 27 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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