Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Charles-Valentin Alkan/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 3 August 2013 (UTC) [1].

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Charles-Valentin Alkan

Charles-Valentin Alkan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Charles-Valentin Alkan/archive1

Nominator(s): Smerus (talk) 12:48, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this Good Article for Featured Article status because I believe it meets all the FA standards. I am grateful to other editors who have constructively queried aspects and corrected my terrible typing. Also to those editors who participated in the GA review. 2013 is the 200th anniversary of Alkan's birth and I hope this would be an appropriate celebration.Smerus (talk) 12:48, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Comments for corrections/alterations

Comments by Dr. Blofeld

Some comments in passing:

• Ref 152, isn't that radio broadcast copyrighted on YouTube? To my knowledge we don't accept direct copyrighted references but you can reference it without the youtube link.
• Ref 153 Obituary of Smith in The Guardian, 8 July 2004, accessed 16 May 2013. Italicize The Guardian.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 13:45, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - have corrected ref 153. Re ref 152, it doesn't seem to be copyrighted on YouTube, but this is not vry clear - Apparently it is from a 1997 (?commercial) Japanese video. I am trying to find the name of the publisher and any other details, and will then substitute these.--Smerus (talk) 14:12, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I now find this is from a Japanese TV broadcast of 1997. Although it is not clear from YouTube itself, I would guess this to be in fact a copyright video and therefore to cite it would probably infringe WP:YT. I am not sure therefore how to cite it otherwise, as I cannot identify the original broadcaster or broadcast date. In fact I contacted Hamelin himself about it and he doesn't know details of the source, though he tells me he stands by the comment (but that of course counts as WP:OR). It would be a pity to cut the quote out; I should be grateful for further advice from anyone out there.....--Smerus (talk) 20:04, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

You should state the programme title and the Japanese TV channel and year/date if possible that's fine "The introduction to the talk can be found here on YouTube (accessed 17 May 2013); the other sections are also available on YouTube.\3 isn't acceptable please replace with a proper citation to the 1997 TV episode without the url.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 20:51, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

OK have done this.--Smerus (talk) 08:04, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Lead -

• "in which city " a city in which?
• "The latter includes his Symphony for Piano Solo (Op. 39. nos. 4–7) and Concerto for Piano Solo (Op. 39 nos. 8–10)". What key were these in for reference sake?
• "Virtually all of his music is for the keyboard." I'd be inclined to merge that which seems a little out of context with "During this period he published, amongst other works, his collections of large-scale studies in all the major keys (Op. 35) and all the minor keys (Op. 39)." Virtually all of his music is for the keyboard.
• "He was himself fluent in Hebrew and Greek, and devoted much time to a complete translation of the Bible into French." Don't like the "He was himself", I'd word it as "Fluent in Hebrew and Greek, he also devoted much time to a complete translation of the Bible into French."

Prodigy

• Citations needed for child prodigy and "the records of his auditions survive in the Archives Nationales in Paris."
• Sometimes the tense seems a little odd. "At Charles-Valentin's piano audition on 6 October 1820, when he was nearly seven (and where he is named as "Alkan (Morhange) Valentin"), the examiners comment"

Given that it happened nearly 200 years ago speaking in the present tense seems odd, I'd rather you spoke in past tense throughout and say "the examiners commented".

• "One of Charles-Valentin's pupils there, later to become his bête noire, Antoine Marmontel, wrote of the school:"

I'd shuffle this and write it as "Antoine Marmontel, one of Charles-Valentin's pupils there who was later to become his bête noire, wrote of the school:"

• "leading Paris salons" I'd write is as either "leading Parisian salons", or "leading salons in Paris". I've reworded and also changed the word Parisian to in Paris below where it seems more appropriate to do so.
• "He was probably introduced to these venues by Zimmermann." Had to double check again who Zimmermann was, can you just add "by his tutor Zimmermann" just so people don't have to check?
• Tim Riley might wish to offer his opinion on this but I see you use "amongst" a lot, and I vaguely remember than he picked up on something like that in my article and encouraged the use of "among" and "while" instead of "whilst". I'll ask him about this.
  • And now asked. I try to follow the old saw "prefer the short word to the long" - thus I always favour "while" and "among" rather than "whilst" and "amongst", and, if asked, I recommend them to anyone who wants my views. But it's not a matter of right or wrong. De gustibus etc. I am on record as full of praise for the article, and I remain so. Tim riley (talk) 15:14, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

That's all for now, don't wish to overwhelm you. I will continue in another sizeable chunk later.Tibetan Prayer ^᧾ 13:52, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The Concerto/Symphony for Solo Piano use progressive tonality, as they form part of a set of études in all minor keys. Toccata quarta (talk) 14:10, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I have caught up with all of these I think, many thanks. I gave an additonal cite for 'prodigy' but the other matters in the paragraph are all covered by the cite at its end. The progressive tonality of the minor key etudes I have dealt with in a note (note 9) when they crop up later in the artcle, as I think this would be too heavy for the lede. I have taken advantage of Tim's dispensation to leave my - sts in situ. Thanks to you, TQ,and Tim - I await the next episode.--Smerus (talk) 15:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks both. Moving on..

Early fame -

• "Elegant social circles", do you mean "eminent/distinguished social circles"? I think it fits better with what you're trying to say, I'd favour distinguished I think.
• "It is not clear exactly when he first met Frédéric Chopin, who arrived in Paris in late 1831." Citation would be good here.
• "which was to result in an extended and often intimate correspondence which has only come to light in recent years.[29] Like virtually all of Alkan's correspondence, this exchange is one-sided;" Again the tense, was resulted and was one-sided.
• "in recent years". How recent, when? I'd rather see something like "since the 1990s" or whatever.
• "all his papers" - I think it should be "all of his papers"
• "the Twelve Caprices, that were published in 1837 as Opp. 12, 13, 15 and 16" . I think you can remove "that were" here.
• ". In January 1836, Liszt recommended Alkan for the post of Professor at the Geneva Conservatoire, which, however, Alkan turned down," "In January 1836, Liszt recommended Alkan for the post of Professor at the Geneva Conservatoire, but it was declined by Alkan" would read better.

Square d'Orléans -

• I'd rather not have a French article link in the article. Can you create a brief stub on it, I'll aim to add to it within the next few days if you do.
• "From 1837, Alkan lived in the Square d'Orléans in Paris, where, amongst other celebrities including Marie Taglioni, Alexandre Dumas and George Sand, Chopin was also to settle himself." I think "From 1837, Alkan lived at the Square d'Orléans in Paris, inhabited by numerous celebrities of the time such as Marie Taglioni, Alexandre Dumas, George Sand, and Chopin himself." reads better without the where, amongst, including and also to settle.
• By 1838, at 25 years old, Alkan had reached a peak of his career. -Citations needed I think for a strong claim, it should by "the peak" of his career rather than "a peak" also.
• "At this point, for a period which coincides with the birth and childhood of his son, Élie-Miriam Delaborde (1839–1913), "Alkan never either asserted or denied his paternity of Delaborde, which, however, the world at large seemed to assume." Seems a little sudden, no mention of a relationship or the boy's mother to put this in context, or was it an illegitimate child? Was the child living with him? The impression I got from the lead is that nobody was certain it was even his. I think in introducing this you need to clarify this. Coincided - past tense also. I'd rewrite "Alkan neither asserted or denied his paternity of Delaborde, but the public assumed that it was his son".

Thank you, I believe I have now covered the above tranche, except for a ref for Chopin's arrival in Paris and the Square d'Orleans artice, both of which I will deal with shortly. 'A peak' is right, as he then went into retreat, and launched himself successfuly again 6 years later as the article describes, and the citation supports. Note 4 deals with the mysterious mother of Delaborde. --Smerus (talk) 17:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I see, that's fine, good job.Tibetan Prayer ^᧾ 17:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

• "Alkan's return to the concert platform in 1844 was greeted with enthusiasm by critics, who noted the "admirable perfection" of his technique, and lauded him as "a model of science and inspiration", a "sensation" and an "explosion"." This sentence needs a citation with all of those quotes, if it is the citation on the next sentence I'd move it up, the attending celebrities including Liszt, Chopin, Sand and Dumas sentences is less in need of a citation.
• "To the period 1844–48 belong a series of virtuoso pieces, the 25 Préludes Op. 31 for piano or organ, and the highly original sonata Op. 33 Les quatre âges.[47] Alkan also published in 1844 his piano étude Le chemin de fer which is believed to be the first representation in music of a steam engine." I'd rewrite it as "Between 1844 and 1848, Alkan produced a series of virtuoso pieces, the 25 Préludes Op. 31 for piano or organ, and the highly original sonata Op. 33 Les quatre âges. In 1844 he also published his piano étude Le chemin de fer, which is believed to be the first representation in music of a steam engine."

Retreat -

"In 1848 Alkan faced a major disappointment when he was passed over for the position of head of the piano department in the Conservatoire upon Zimmermann's retirement; Alkan expected, and lobbied strongly for, the appointment, and was supported by Sand, Dumas, and many other leading figures; but Daniel Auber, the head of the Conservatoire, replaced Zimmermann with the anodyne Marmontel,[50] which the disgusted Alkan described in a letter to Sand as "the most incredible, the most shameful nomination." I'd write it as something like "In 1848, Alkan was bitterly disappointed after the head of the Conservatoire, Daniel Auber, replaced Zimmermann with the anodyne Marmontel as head of the piano department, a position which he had eagerly anticipated after extensive lobbying, supported by Sand, Dumas, and many other leading figures. A disgusted Alkan wrote in a letter to Sand that Marmontel's appointment was "the most incredible, the most shameful nomination", and Delacroix noted in his journal...

• "Chopin, on his deathbed in 1849, bequeathed to Alkan for completion his unfinished work on a piano method, a measure of his respect for Alkan" "completion his unfinished work", you mean "to complete" his unfinished work?

Hokay up to Music now, I've taken the liberty to make some of the more minor changes I'd have alerted you to here. Final installment coming when you're ready!Tibetan Prayer ^᧾ 17:35, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

References -

• Check consistency of name formatting in each source. Surname first then first name as you've mostly done. Some like Jack Gibbons, Gabriel-Marie Legouvé and P. McCallum are not written like this, only appears to be a few of them which are inconsistent with the other though.
• Ref 143 - can you retrieve the original publisher and book it was taken from,and state accessed via WikiSource.

I've now covered all of the above. Bring on the next round!--Smerus (talk) 21:17, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Third and final round!

Music -

• "Brigitte François-Sappey points out the frequency with which Alkan has been compared to Berlioz, both by his contemporaries and later." "Hans von Bülow called him "the Berlioz of the piano"; whilst Schumann, in criticising the Op. 15 Romances, claimed that Alkan merely "imitated Berlioz on the piano." But sentences I think it need a citation.
• "They indeed both created individual, indeed, idiosyncratic" - Remove indeed.

Style -

• "Like Chopin, Alkan wrote almost exclusively for the keyboard." citation just for the fact that it is a strong claim.
• "; as examples," -Just "such as" will suffice.
• "although he may often take them to extremes as he does with piano technique. " -tense
• Not quite sure what you mean by "convinces for reasons that apply ", can you reword?
• "gives hints of the obsessiveness which some have detected in his personality." Who? Seems a little vague.
• "Alkan's earliest works indicate that in his early teens he "was a formidable musician but as yet ... industrious rather than ... creative"." - he was, according to Smith - can you attribute this quote?

Selected recordings -

• Close gap between full stop in second sentence.

Revisiting references again -

• Ref 133, needs space between bracket
• Ref 135, convert to page note Legouvé (1828), pp 182-3, move book to bottom, remove google books and accessdate.

External links -

• Seems a lot of links to me, again the links to youtube, although constructive, I don't thinkFAs should really link to videos on youtube unless they're actually uploaded by the pianist themselves, as a lot of musicians have their work uploaded on youtube against their approval. Can you check that all of the videos linked are not vios, if they are, I'd remove the web performances myself, you may wish to ask somebody else on that as they might not agree with me.

Tibetan Prayer ^᧾ 17:44, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I have now dealt with all of these. Very grateful for your thoroughness. As regards the YouTube links, the pieces were all uploaded by the pianists themselves, except for the Powell pieces, which were uploaded by me with his permission from the music festival I organise in Slovakia. I can confirm therefore that there is no element of copyvio. Best, --Smerus (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Ah I see. I'm very impressed! Tibetan Prayer ^᧾ 20:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Support I'm happy with the changes made. I still think it would be a good idea for one or two more pairs of eyes to give this a thorough going over, but I'm content with what you've written at least. Your perseverance with it deserves to be rewarded! Tibetan Prayer ^᧾ 20:47, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments by PumpkinSky

• Format of the web references is not consistent at all. PumpkinSky talk 14:40, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I will look to this. Now sorted, I think.--Smerus (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

• • Sorry, no they're not. At FA level you have got to be consistent. Compare these samples:

132^ Interview with Hamilton on Pianomania website, accessed 15 May 2013.

152^ The introduction to the talk can be found here on YouTube (accessed 17 May 2013); the other sections are also available on YouTube. (there is a cite video template you can use for videos, suggest you use cite templates for all web refs)

81^ See letters translated in Alkan Society Bulletin no. 88 and Alkan Society Bulletin no. 89, accessed 9 May 2013.

162^ Alkan Society website discography, accessed 29 June 2013.

PumpkinSky talk 12:06, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this. I have rewritten note 152 in any case, so as to avoid any problems with copyright per WP:YT. I believe the others are consistent, but maybe there is something I haven't spotted? --Smerus (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at the web refs in Yogo sapphire, maybe a visual cue will enable you to see what I'm talking about. PumpkinSky talk 23:41, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Although this article does not use the same formats as Yogo sapphire, I believe I have now made corrections to all weblink citations so that they are consistent with each other, and so that they meet with the requirements of MOS, namely:

• URL of the webpage
• name of the author(s)
• title of the article within quotation marks
• name of the website
• date of publication
• page number(s) (if applicable)
• the date you retrieved (or accessed) the webpage (required if the publication date is unknown).

--Smerus (talk) 13:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Better, but not there still. I really don't know how else to explain this to you...I've never seen the word "website" actually written out before in a ref. In one ref you have that word linked with the title, in others you don't, just one example. Try comparing to Koala too.PumpkinSky talk 17:52, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

First, thanks for introducing me to the very interesting articles Yogo sapphire and Koala,which I enjoyed. I have now been through all the weblink citations again and ensured that the relevant page is liked and the word 'website' is not. Beyond this things get a bit esoteric. I have seen the word website written out in a link in an FA article, and it is not explicitly against MOS. So that aspect just becomes a matter of taste between you and myself, and I side with with myself on this occasion. It's also a bit difficult for me if you cannot specify your other concerns (if any), but of course if there remain any issues which contravene the MOS standards as listed above I will gladly deal with them.--Smerus (talk) 17:38, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Can you show me just one article promoted to FA within the last year that has website written out? (not something from 2004 when standards were essentially nonexistent) So here are more specifics, since you asked for them...

• 7^ See examples in Conway (2013b)....why not Conway (2013b), page numbers (like the other ones)
• 12^ François-Sappey(1991), 303–5.....needs a space after y
• 30^ As he makes clear in his will; see Luguenot (1997), 26....why all this non standard talk in multiple res? Just cite the ref.
• 36^ Revue et gazette musicale , October .....this needs a language parameter
• 60^ Hans von Bülow, "C. V. Alkan: Douze ....this needs a language parameter
• 68 The death certificate is cited in full in François-Sappey (1991), 310.....again, why all this non standard talk in multiple res? Just cite the ref.
• 72^Eleff (2012)....needs page number
• 81^ Gibbons (2002)...this is a web ref, why is it formatted like a book ref? More web ref inconsistency
• 83^Conway (2012), 207. See also Conway (2003a) and Conway (2003b)....just list them or make them separate, they don't need "see also" and "and"
• 84^ see Kessous Dreyfus (2013), 70....why "see", nothing else is in this format. The ref itself and the Hiller ref need language parameters
• 91^ See Kessous Dreyfus (2013), 47–173 for an exhaustive analysis of these works and their origins....no need for the hyperbole, just list the ref
• 109^ In the television documentary Super Virtuoso, broadcast on Japanese television, 1997.....What network? Where'd you get this? Did you watch it yourself in 1997? If so, that would be WP:OR. This is like saying "CBS documentary 'Night Fear' in 1985". It doesn't wash.
• 116^ Smith (2000) II, 21, where it is mentioned that it was frequently in the programmes of Harold Bauer and Adela Verne. Bauer recorded the piece on a piano roll – see Anon, "Discography (6) - Piano Rolls and Miscellaneous", Alkan Society website, accessed 29 June 2013....again, just list the refs, the explanations aren't needed
• 133^ Gabriel-Marie Legouvé, La Mélancolie, in French Wikisource, accessed 16 May 2013....I'm not sure if wikisource is allowed as a ref or not, I'll see if I can find out
• 139^ Rosar, Fanelli...another web ref formatted like a book, it's format also doesn't match its cousin ref 81, both of which don't match the other web refs
• 145^ Kaikhosru Sorabji, "Charles Henri Valentin Morhange (Alkan)", reprinted in Alkan Society Bulletin 87, 5–8,accessed 29 June 2013....needs a space before accessed.
• 146^ See Anon, ...what's anon mean?
• 149^ Searle (1937)....page number?
• 150^ The broadcast in November 1963 celebrated the 150th anniversary of Alkan's birth....and you got this info from where? Same basic issue as ref 109.
• 151^ Richard Shaw, "Ronald Smith: Heroic pianist and champion of the music of Alkan", The Guardian, 8 July 2004, accessed 16 May 2013....this is a web ref where you don't say "website", more inconsistency.
• 152^ See Anon, "An Alkan Discography", Alkan Society website, accessed 16 May 2013...what's anon?
• 154^ See Anon,"Michael Finnissy: History of Photography in Sound", Ian Pace website, accessed 4 July 2013....anon?
• 155^ Hamelin (2005)...page number?
• 156^ Volumes 1 and 2 (of 3) have been issued by Toccata Classics....this doesn't wash as a ref, you need a reliable source
• 157^ See Prosseda (2013) and Lebrecht (2012)....again, why say see? just list the refs. you've said see twice but not the other 160 or so times
• 160^ Anon, "An Alkan Discography", Alkan Society website, accessed 29 June 2013.....if anon means anonymous, just don't list it "anon", it's understood if there is no name. this you'd done about 5-6 times yet not multiple other times.
• and yes, the word "website" needs to go, it's superfulous and redundant. If you disagree, we can get a ruling from a FAC coordinator.PumpkinSky talk 22:00, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I have started on these. Not in fact that I agree with you on all points, but I have better things to do than waste time on getting rulings on petty matters. The article Richard Wagner was promoted to FA in March 2013 and has 'website' in a couple of places. There were storms of arguments over the article as a whole, but no one raised that particular issue.

Two or three particular points:

• 109^. As you can see from Dr. Blofeld's comments above, this was originally referenced to a YouTube clip which is still available at present. Evil as I am, even I don't resort to WP:OR. Dr. Blofeld advises that citing this could lead to copyright problems. Same applies to ^150, where however I was able to source the date and radio station. Your opinion on this would be valued.
• Please let me know re Wikimedia. As the poem is of course well out of copyright, it didn't occur to me that this would not be permissible.

Best, --Smerus (talk) 15:53, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

The biggest issue is you're not consistent and you're supposed to be consistent. I tried to mildly point this out but you forced my hand. Since you consider me petty and a waste of your time, I won't waste my time here anymore either. PumpkinSky talk 20:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry that you have chosen to misunderstand me. I hope it was sufficiently clear that the 'waste of time' referred to challenging your opinions, not to you or to the opinions themselves, to which I am in the course of acceding. I should still remain grateful fo comments on 109^ and ^150, from you and/or form any other editor.--Smerus (talk) 05:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have now adopted all the recommendations of User:PumpkinSky, save for ^7, where I have added page nos. but left 'See examples', to make the reference clear. I have also made further similar changes to those recommended by PumpkinSky where I have found them. There remain two issues on which I would be grateful for guidance:

• ^ 109 (now ^107) and ^150 (now ^149) - see above
• ^132 Wikimedia source - see above.

--Smerus (talk) 07:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

I have now dealt with the remaining citation issues. 109^ I have had to delete - and alas the quotation it refers to - as I cannot ascertain its copyright status. For the quondam 150^ (now 148^) I have found a different and acceptable citation. As regards the Wikimedia source, the material, which was written in the 1830s, is out of copyright and can be cited from there.--Smerus (talk) 07:47, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Andy Mabbett

I have concerns about the hard-coding of the size of the lede image, which I have explained on the article's talk page. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:32, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

I am seeking a consensus on image issues in the article on the talk page.--Smerus (talk) 11:27, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

now resolved using 'upright=' parameter on pictures, avoiding hard-coding picture sizes. (See article talk page).--Smerus (talk) 09:42, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Nikkimaria

Image review

• Caption of Style image needs editing for grammar
• File:Square_d'Orléans.jpg: as France does not have freedom of panorama, include a licensing tag for the building as well as the photo. Same for File:Syna_Nazareth.JPG
• File:A-F_Marmontel.jpg: source link won't load for me, is it broken?
• File:Quasi-Faust_fugue_-_Alkan.png: the uploader is not the author, so the licensing tag is incorrect. Same with File:Quasi-Faust_-_Alkan.png
• File:Main_gauche_1.png: use creation not upload date. Same with File:Le_festin_d'Ésope_theme_complete.png
• File:Wiki_naxos_8.553702_01_02.ogg: uploader is not author. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:56, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Many thanks. I think these are all fixed now. I found and entered in Wikimedia a different source for Marmontel; as you say, the orginal link appears broken.--Smerus (talk) 11:29, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Double sharp

Can we have a clearer pic of the fugue from Quasi-Faust that is actually readable (like the one at IMSLP?) Double sharp (talk) 06:10, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

I have changed as you suggest. --Smerus (talk) 15:06, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton: Most interesting account of a somewhat lesser known (at least over here) French composer. My comments are largely confined to prose and presentational nitpicks, and the following list relates to the first third of the article. I have also made a number of minor corrective edits:

• As a general prose point, the subject should be named on first mention in each paragraph, rather tham being introduced by pronoun. This first occurs in the second paragraph of the lead. This sentence anyway needs adjusting – I suggest: "At the Conservatoire de Paris, which Alkan entered before he was six, he earned many awards".
• The "was, however" in the second sentence of this paragraph is inappropriate and should be removed.
• There's another dubious "however" in the third sentence of the paragraph. I would reword here to "...he began to adopt a reclusive life style, while continuing with his compositions virtually all of which..."
• "amongst" → "among"
• "he devoted much time to a complete translation of the Bible into French." I imagine this was a new translation – there must have been French-language Bibles before this date?
• "Prodigy section", first paragraph: consistency required in tenses. At present, "noted" and "was" conflict with "is given", "is referred to" etc. Best to stick with the literary present, as the records still exist,
• "In 1829, at the age of 15, Alkan was appointed joint professor of solfège – among his pupils was his brother Napoléon". Can this be true? Napoléon (born 1826) was three years old.
• "In this manner Alkan's musical career was launched well before the July Revolution of 1830." What is the significance of this information? The subsequent "However..." also looks redundant
• "In 1832 Alkan performed in his first Concerto da camera..." Perhaps be a bit more precise: "Alkan played the piano part in a performance of his firat..." etc
• General observation - too much info is being unnecessarily enclosed in parentheses. Very few of these parentheses are justified.
• Just "Chopin", not "Chopin himself".
• Is it possible to avoid the double "...ing" in "considering writing", e.g. "thinking about writing"?
• The sentence beginning "On 23 April 1837 Alkan took part..." is too long, and should be split.
• The absence of any information about Delaborde's mother is curious. Otherwise, why is Alkan's paternity assumed?
• "He also published in 1844 his piano étude..." → "In 1944 Alkan published his piano étude..."
• "which is believed" is a little vague, and invites the query "believed by whom?" Maybe amend to something like "believed by critics"
• Why is the sonata Op 33 "highly original"?
• Presumably Meyerbeer was impressed after attending an Alkan recital?

More to follow as I work through. Brianboulton (talk) 15:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Very many thanks for your corrections and suggestions, which I shall now begin to work through. Alas Alkan is not much better honoured the other side of the Channel than he is on ours, but things are looking up a bit this year!--Smerus (talk) 18:48, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I think I have now covered all these, except for the July Revolution and Delaborde. The 'highly original' I have just cut, as it is dealt with later under 'Music' where the piece is discussed. I had in mind, with respect to the July Revolution, that it was the changes in taste which the 'bourgeois monarchy' brought about which fuelled the 'pianomania' in Paris in the 1830s and 40s from which Liszt, Chopin, Alkan and many others benefited. I can enlarge on this in a sentence or two, as I think that the outbreak of 'pianomania' is highly relevant; but will need of course to find appropriate citation(s); so I will come back to this. As regards Delaborde, his paternity was, as I suggest, something which everyone 'knew', although there is no documentary evidence. In fact there is some suggestion that Alkan may have had a fling with Sand before Chopin appeared on the scene; remaining a good friend, he had perhaps with Sand's help fostered the child with one of her relatives (or, alternativley, according to a bold theory of Alkan's great-nephew, Sand was Delaborde's mother). What we do know, which is suggestive, is that: Alkan taught Delaborde as a child; that he followed his career; that Delaborde is the only 'non-family' individual who was left a bequest in Alkan's will; that Delaborde performed and edited Alkan's works; and to this may be added that they both kept parrots. But none of this is exactly encyclopaedic for our purposes; so it may be best to leave as currently stated in the article, with the referenced comment that his contemporaries assumed Alkan to be the father.--Smerus (talk) 19:28, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm fine with the above. My comments continue:

• Concerning Marmontel, whose wording is "anodyne"?
• "It is at this time" is a very poor construction; there is no clear indication of what is meant by "this time". Can you give a rough indication, eg. "In the early 1850s..."?
• "with occasional interruptions due to health". "Due to" is also pretty horrible, and you need to indicate whose health, e.g. something like "caused by Alkan's health"
• "...his death was caused by a bookcase falling on him in his home, which toppled over as he reached for a volume of the Talmud..." - reads as if his home toppled over. I'd rephrase, e.g. "his death was caused when a bookcase toppled over and fell on him as he reached for a volume of the Talmud..."
• "Certainly it appears that his aversion to socialising and publicity, especially following 1850, were self-willed." This is editorial opinion, and needs to be rephrased neutrally.
• Similarly, "Doubtless it was this spirit of anomie that led him to reject requests in the 1860s to play in public, or to allow performances of his orchestral compositions" is an opinion that needs to be attributed.
• "very probably" → "probably"
• "...many of his habits (for example, preparing his own food) indicate that he practised at least some of its obligations, such as maintaining the laws of kashrut." An example, followed immediately by a different "such as", makes for clumsy prose. I would simply delete the parenthetical example.
• "the Paris synagogue" - was there only one in the city (later you have "main Paris synagogue")?
• In "Judaism" section, three successive sentences begin "Alkan..."
• "Jewish topics" - would "Jewish themes" be better?
• "melodic tropes" - will your general reader understand? Suggest pipe to Trope (music) - not that that opaque article is much help.
• "at his decease" → "after his death" (plain English always preferred,, though I often err myself)

The remainder of my comments, on the Music section, wil have to wait a little longer. Brianboulton (talk) 14:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again. Have dealt I think with all of these in accordance with (if not always to the letter of) your suggestions. 'Jewish themes' might suggest that he used actual Jewish melodies for all these pieces, so I have used 'Jewish subjects'. 'Anodyne' was my word, have replaced with 'mediocre' which I think is not controversial. 'Certainly' and 'doubtless' sentences I have toned down - the second is anyway supported by the citation from Smith. I await your further comments at your leisure. Best, --Smerus (talk) 15:51, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Music section: A few final comments:

• "a proposed monograph? Since Sappey cites it, I'd say it's actual rather than proposed.
• Self-referencing, e.g. "Alkan's interest in Jewish music has been mentioned above" should be avoided
• Phrasing such as "Alkan even went so far as to ensure that the pieces in each of his sets followed precisely..." etc suggest a POV towards the composer which needs to be removed. Thus: "Alkan ensured that..."
• Some possible problems with musical terminology, e.g "enharmonic equivalent". Is this the same as "enharmonic modulation", and will the general reader be able to understand?
• The first part of the Schumann quote: "a considerable flavour of [Eugène] Sue and [George] Sand" is a bit clumsy and quite difficult to follow. It might be advisable to paraphrase this part and begin the quote at "One is startled..."
• "when a series of virtuoso works was issued" → "after which a series of virtuoso works was issued"?
• "The sonata is structurally innovative in two ways. Not only is each movement slower than its predecessor, but the work anticipates the practice of progressive tonality, beginning in D major and ending in G-sharp minor." Again, it's a question of tone; the phrasing is not quite neutral and is suggestive of an editorial viewpoint. This could be resolved by: "The sonata is structurally innovative; each movement slower than its predecessor, and the work anticipates the practice of progressive tonality, beginning in D major and ending in G-sharp minor."
• Could we not have a hint of the nature of Kreutzer's description of the lost symphony?
• "seem to stand outside the barriers of time and space" – who is being quoted here?
• Is the "pedal board" the same as the pédalier?
• it may be advisable to repeat the links on Petri and Sorabji, neither of whom have been mentioned for some considerable time.
• Maybe 10 example names of pianists who "amongst others" have recorded Alkan's work is excessive?
• A suggestion: the frequent use of the preposition "amongst", rather than its simpler form "among", is not conducive to smooth prose flow. I think I've altered one or two – you could perhaps look at the others.

One last suggestion. Alkan comes across as austere and somewhar unapproachable, not the sort of chap you'd seek out for a night's fun and frolicking. So I was quite pleased to learn, from Hugh Macdonald's biographical article in Grove Music Online, that Alkan "particularly enjoyed the patronage of Russian aristocratic ladies, ‘des dames très parfumées et froufroutantes’, as Isidore Philipp described them." So, a human being after all. A fascinating article, very informative and well put together. I will have no difficulty in supporting when the final adjustments are made. Brianboulton (talk) 07:01, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks yet again. I still have a couple of adjustments yet to make, re Kreutzer, and another (and I think) better example of Alkan having a night out on the town. 'Pedalboard' I have now linked, for clarity. As regards 'enharmonic' - I can't really find a better way to put this. F triple sharp is the same note on a piano as G sharp - they are thus enharmonically equivalent. F triple sharp is thus the nominal leading note in a hypothetical key of G double sharp, which is the logical key to which Alkan's development has led the music at this stage. - although of course G double sharp is the same as A natural. But G double sharp and A natural are 'theoretically' different - and indeed, had a double-sharp pipe or key existed before equal temperament, they would have been de facto different by a few cycles per second. An intellectually lazier composer would have written the note as a G sharp; but Alkan wanted the player to think of the note in the context of the keys he was moving through, in which G natural had no place. If the successor note was a G (either flat, natural, sharp, or double sharp), then the preceding note had to be a form of F (correspondingly natural, sharp, double sharp or, as here, triple sharp). This is all a bit too esoteric for the article I think :-}.--Smerus (talk) 13:52, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

(irrelevant hair-splitting warning: would personally analyse it as an appoggiatura to ♯ of A♯ minor)

What would certainly be interesting: is he the first composer to actually use triple sharps? (off topic: any sightings of triple flats outside Roslavets?) Double sharp (talk) 14:31, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

@ Double sharp: I haven't seen a triple sharp (or triple flat) earlier than this, but wouldn't dare to make a claim without a citation. I did consider 'appoggiatura' - but as I think you suggest, that argument doesn't belong here.--Smerus (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

@Brian: I think I am now done with your comments so far - have added re Kreutzer and personality. And I earlier dealt with the July Revolution. Best, --Smerus (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Support: My various issues have been properly considered and I think fairly resolved. Am more than happy to welcome another composer to the FA pantheon. Brianboulton (talk) 16:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Brian.--Smerus (talk) 18:47, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Toccata quarta

I have (at least for now) just one small comment to make: in the passage "descended from a long line of Jewish ancestors in the region of Metz", what is the purpose of "long line"? Every human being has a long line of ancestors, and I don't see why the lack of immigration on part of Alkan's ancestors should be emphasised in the article (if that is indeed what the passage is saying). Toccata quarta (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Well what I meant was that his lineage could be traced through many generations in that region (i.e. that they were not of relativlely recent Polish-Jewish immigration to the region in the 17th and 18th centuries). I will rephrase to clarify.--Smerus (talk) 15:37, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Overall comments

Support – I reviewed this article for GA and said then that it was more FA than GA quality. I don't comment on images if I can help it (knowing too little of WP's laws on them) but the text seems to me to meet all the FA criteria. The article is clear, in lucid and pleasing prose, well proportioned, and thoroughly referenced from suitably varied sources. As for full coverage of the subject, I like to think I know a thing or two about classical music but this article was full of facts I didn't know, and I am very pleased indeed to have made its acquaintance. – Tim riley (talk) 15:35, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comments

• Pls check your dup links with this script -- some might be justified by the space between them but others (e.g. Cesar Franck) shouldn't be necessary.
• Not a stopper I suppose but would've thought we could go with "among/while" these days rather than "amongst/whilst"... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, will check both these points.--Smerus (talk) 21:58, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

All now dealt with as recommended.--Smerus (talk) 22:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 15:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.