Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/A Christmas Carol/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:54, 26 September 2018 [1].

A Christmas Carol[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 20:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A Christmas Carol is a story everyone knows, either in the original, or through one of the many, many adaptations that have been produced since it was published. Its success comes down to numerous factors, including the socio-historical background that the British were re-examining Christmas and exploring new practices that many consider part of a "traditional Christmas". It also comes down to being a relatively short read, packed with superb descriptions, rounded characters and a bad-turns-good ending 150 years before Star Wars did it. I took this to GA about 16 months ago (under a legitimate alternate account), and some minor wrinkles have been ironed and smoothed since. – SchroCat (talk) 20:21, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Aoba47[edit]

  • I would add ALT text for the infobox image.
  • For this sentence (After their visits Scrooge is transformed into a kinder, gentler man.), add a comma after “visits”.
  • For this part (He was influenced by experiences from his own past,), I think you can make it more concise with the following revision (He was influenced by his own past) as I am not sure “experiences from” is really necessary.
  • Makes sure that all of the images have appropriate ALT text.
  • Done (I always forget the ALTs!) - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you are going to link “Christmas Eve” in the body of the article, I would do so in the lead for consistency.
  • I would add a link for £.
  • Not sure of its use: it's a major world currency, so doesn't need clarification by the link. - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Understandable; I thought that I might as well propose it. Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • These two sentences (In 1824 John was committed to Marshalsea, a debtors' prison in Southwark, London.) and (At the end of December 1842 Dickens began publishing his novel Martin Chuzzlewit as a monthly serial) require commas for the beginning phrases. I notice several instances of this (i.e. beginning phrases, primary those involving dates, lacking a comma); rather than listing everything out, I would recommend looking through the article to correct this.
  • That's an American habit, not necessarily followed in British English - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makes sense. I am American so I was not aware of this. I would just make sure that is consistent throughout. Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not used to preferred structure for a literature article, so apologies if this is really obvious, but wouldn’t it be better to put the “Characters” section right after the “Plot” section. It would make sense, to me at least, to have these two sections placed together as a group. I could be wrong, but I just wanted to throw it out there as a suggestion.
  • I've seen a variety of structures used for literature articles, so I'm not sure there is an entirely "set" way of doing things. I'll mull this over, if I may, particularly if others make the same suggestion. - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. I have never worked on a literature article or have done a review for one, so apologies for being uncertain about the overall structure/approach. Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you think that the “Themes” section should be moved after the “Reception” section to group all of these more critical/outside opinions together?
  • I don't think this one would be an advantage. The themes are part of the book, lain down deliberately by Dickens - the outside critics are just highlighting something that was there, whereas the reviews are third party opinions - if any of that makes sense! - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Makes sense to me; thank you for the clarification. Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies if this is obvious, but what is the reason for The Ghost of Christmas Present image in the “Aftermath” section? Same question for the image in the “Legacy” section?
  • There are too many images in the upper sections of the article if we include those up there too. For those sections where we have no free images (or no good excuse for non-free), I've spread what we do have to break the walls of text. - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Understandable. I will leave that up to you. Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is DuckTales included in the “See also” section? I know there is a character inspired by Scrooge in the cartoon, but what makes DuckTales more special than the other adaptions of the Scrooge character to warrant a mention here?

You have done an excellent job with this article. I would imagine that this must be a difficult article to work on, given how popular the novella is worldwide and across history. This would definitely be a cool article to have featured on the main page on Christmas day. This FAC definitely inspires me to work on a more literature-related article sometime. Once my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this. If you have the time, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my current FAC. Either way, have a great weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 02:03, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Aoba47. I've changed per most of your suggestions, but there are a couple I've demurred on, and one I'll think over at length. Thank you very for your comments, they really have been most useful. I have another review lined up to do first, but will swing by your article after I have finished on that one. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for addressing everything. I support this for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 17:14, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Marley's_Ghost_-_A_Christmas_Carol_(1843),_opposite_25_-_BL.jpg: where is the CC0 tag coming from? Don't see it at the source site
  • File:Christmascarol1843_--_184.jpg needs a US PD tag. Same with File:JohnLeechHimself.jpg, File:Christmascarol1843_--_137.jpg
  • File:Francis_Alexander_-_Charles_Dickens_1842.jpeg: source link is dead, needs US PD tag
  • Scrooge_or_Marley's_Ghost_(1901)_-_yt.webm: what is the creator's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:29, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

Always one of my favourites, though I have sometimes thought the "before" Scrooge much more interesting than the "after" ... but to business.

  • "Most critics reviewed the novella positively." I might say favourably rather than positively.
  • "Dickens took action against the publishers" I would say "legal" before "action"
  • "much longer than Marley's chains." I might say "much heavier than Marley's burden". Marley says "weight and length".
  • Stave 2: It might be worth mentioning that Fred is the deceased Fan's son.
  • "The boyhood scenes portray Scrooge's lonely childhood," I might say "reveal" rather than "portray"
  • "Finally, they visit a now-married Belle with her large, happy family on a recent Christmas Eve." The point is not particularly seeing Belle. It is that Belle is hearing about Scrooge, more or less as he has become, with Marley lying on his deathbed. Seeing and hearing this nearly breaks Scrooge and possibly it is worthy of a bit more detail.
  • Will look at this point again shortly - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added a little more colour and tweaked slightly to show the meaning. - SchroCat (talk) 20:25, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sobbing, Scrooge pledges to the ghost that he will change his ways to avoid this outcome." I would change the final word to "fate".
  • "He spends the day with Fred's family" Well, the afternoon. He goes to church first.
  • "Marshalsea" more usual with "the" before it?
  • Do your sources say whether Dickens translated the Christmas in Pickwick to A Christmas Carol?
  • I'm not sure you are consistent with whether you put a dot after "Mr" and "Dr".
  • "until 1870 (the year of his death), when it provided the material for his farewell performance.[87]" Hopefully not as Marley. Could this be clarified a bit?
  • Can more be said about how A Christmas Carol has been interpreted by scholars in more modern times?
  • I'll go over the material again. I was surprised by the seeming lack of good critique (outside what we've already got here). There were a couple of others I didn't include as their points were the ones already covered by better sources already used, but I'll comb through once again. - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's it for now. I'm still looking for my Dickens references and may have a few more comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:59, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks, Wehwalt. All the straightforward ones done, and I'll go over the sources on a few of the other points you've raised. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:01, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK, thanks. Could you ping me when you are ready for me to take another look?--Wehwalt (talk) 12:55, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All looks good. Improved since I viewed it last.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:08, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks Wehwalt - I'm much obliged to the trouble you've gone to. Many thanks - SchroCat (talk) 09:07, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Tim riley[edit]

A pleasant surprise to find this article here. I had no idea it was on its way. Happy to support: it is most readable, is comprehensive, well referenced and splendidly illustrated. A few very minor quibbles, which don't affect my support:

  • Links
    • There are a few words and phrases that I shouldn't have blue linked (clerk, ghost, fundraising, English literature) but these things are to some extent a matter of personal judgment, and I don't press the point.
I've left "clerk", as it may not be as common nowadays (particularly outside the UK) than it was, but I've trimmed the rest. - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Stave two
    • I haven't read the book for about fifty years, so please forgive what may be a silly question: "a lonely childhood" but "his relationship with his beloved sister" – aren't they mutually exclusive?
He had been sent away to school. Fan comes to get him on Christmas Eve, when he is alone at the school, to take him home and promise he will not be sent again.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've added that he was at boarding school by way of clarification. - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Characters
    • I really don't think I'd label Carlyle a "Chartist philosopher". I can think of many adjectives for the old buzzard, but Chartist wouldn't be high on my list. His 1840 tract is by no means unambiguously pro-Chartist, containing both radical and reactionary aspects.
  • Publication
    • A tiny MoS point: I'm almost certain the MoS bids us put references outside closing brackets, and not inside.
  • Reception
    • The reviewer from The Illustrated London News – unexpected preposition. "in" would be more likely, I think.
  • Legacy
    • zeitgeist of the age – tautological, perhaps?

That's all from me. I find I haven't actually got a copy of the book on my shelves, and the article inspires me to buy one tomorrow – what higher praise can there be? – Tim riley talk 09:57, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. All your points addressed as per your suggestions. You really should buy it - it's a great story that is worth re-reading, and although the prose is a little flowery on occasions, it's all in the right spirit. (and sorry for that pun!) - SchroCat (talk) 19:22, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support from John[edit]

Support. Great article. I made a few minor tweaks and I approve those made as a result of comments above. Easily meets the criteria. Well done. --John (talk) 20:18, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Ceoil[edit]

Mostly concerned about reliance on cliche and in "in universe" phrasing. But impressed overall, and expect to support, eventually. Editing a bit as I go, if that's ok with the nomitator. I can't say in good faith that the page is pitched where I would like a work of fiction to be pre nomination, but its close enough to anticipate support. Ceoil (talk) 03:14, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-worked some of the changes, as the meaning was altered from the original, and one or two clichés were added(!) that are now removed. - SchroCat (talk) 09:07, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No worries man, and thanks. To say, the article is a most enjoyable read; very well done. Ceoil (talk) 12:01, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much, and thanks for your changes too. I've left most of them in there - it was only a few small points I've changed. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:02, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Moving to support now that I've read the whole thing. To be clear, my comment re cliché was wrt to the plot section, which given our familiarity with this story would be damn hard to avoid. Most of my tweaks were to this section; the rest of the article is just fine. Ceoil (talk) 12:50, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from KJP1[edit]

The expected high quality prose and content. A few comments for consideration below.

Lead
  • "The treatment of the poor and the ability of a self-interested man redeeming himself by transforming into a more sympathetic character" - two thoughts here. Would "the ability of a self-interested man to redeem himself" flow slightly better? And while "self-interested" is entirely right, would "self-centred", or indeed "selfish" be a little clearer as to meaning?
Plot - Stave 1
  • ""A Christmas Carol" opens on a bleak, cold Christmas Eve in London" - here the title is in quotes, elsewhere italicised. I think I prefer A Christmas Carol.
Plot - Stave 2
  • "his relationship with his beloved sister Fan" - do we need consistency on Fan or Fran? It's the former here, the latter in the para. above. Unless, of course, it's used interchangeably in the novella?
  • "Scrooge's neglected fiancée Belle is show ending their relationship" - "shown".
Plot - Stave 3
  • "a joyous market of people buying the makings of Christmas dinner and celebrations of Christmas in a miner's cottage and in a lighthouse" - suggest "a joyous market with people buying the makings of Christmas dinner and to celebrations of Christmas in a miner's cottage and in a lighthouse".
Background
  • "sales were disappointing and he faced financial difficulties. By this time he was a well-established author, having written six major works". I'm sure Ackroyd is right, but this confused me a little. He's facing financial difficulties but is a well-established author with six major works under his belt. That seems contradictory. No idea what to suggest, however, except maybe to flip the two sentences and add a waiver, e.g. "By the end of 1842 Dickens was a well-established author, having written six major works, as well as several short stories, novellas and other works. In December of that year he began publishing his novel Martin Chuzzlewit as a monthly serial; the novel was his favourite work, but sales were disappointing and he faced temporary financial difficulties."
Characters
  • "For the chained Marley, Dickens drew on him memory of a visit to the Western Penitentiary" - "his".
Themes
  • "a protean figure always in process of reformation" - is "protean" worth a link? The lead of that article does carry an explanation of the meaning.
  • "Dickens wrote A Christmas Carol because of how British social policy treated children at the time and wished to..." - not fond of "because of how". Perhaps, "in response to British social attitudes towards poverty, particularly child poverty, and wished to..."?
Publication
  • Note 11 - "In 1875 Mitton sold the manuscript to the bookseller Francis Harvey – reportedly for £50 (equal to £4,300 in 2018 pounds –" - the equivalence starts with a bracket but ends with a hyphen.
Aftermath
  • "Dickens sued on the cases of copyright infringement and won" - "for copyright infringement"?
  • "these were secular conversion tales which reflected the societal changes of the previous year, and which social problems still needed to be dealt with" - not quite sure what this is trying to say, particularly the latter part. Perhaps something like, "these were secular conversion tales which acknowledged the progressive societal changes of the previous year, and highlighted those social problems which still needed to be addressed"?

Excellent coverage of a much-loved book. The above are, mainly, suggestions only and can be rejected at will. Very happy to Support once you've had a chance to consider them. KJP1 (talk) 14:56, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • Many thanks KJP1. All addressed, mostly as per your suggestions, with one exception. All much appreciated! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:59, 22 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

I studied Eng Lit and Dickens as minor courses during my first two years at college, so am somewhat familiar with the sources, and have no issues with those used here. Have trawlled through the formatting and not seeing any inconsistencies. SchroCat is a long term and trusted editor, not seeing a need for spot checking. Ceoil (talk) 15:12, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks, Ceoil – your input is appreciated once again. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:30, 15 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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