User talk:Spp908

Welcome![edit]

Hello, Spp908, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few links to pages you might find helpful:

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Please remember to sign your messages on talk pages by typing four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask for help on your talk page, and a volunteer should respond shortly. Again, welcome! Gronk Oz (talk) 06:58, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry to revert your very first edit, to Epping - I sincerely hope that does not discourage you. Unfortunately, the regions in Sydney are not as clear-cut as one might hope, and Epping is included in both (at least, according to the sources - that that's what we have to go by). If you have a good reference to show otherwise, that's great - please discuss it at Talk:Epping, New South Wales first to be sure we don't get too many back-and-forth edits with different editors. Again, welcome to Wikipedia: I hope this is the start of a great association. --Gronk Oz (talk) 07:02, 24 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Epping Discussion and Location[edit]

Hi there! Thanks for getting back to me, I’d like to point out that Epping has never had any affiliation to the Western suburbs of Sydney, it has always been classified as the Upper North Shore. (I know this from living here and my family being here for many decades). Epping is also located next to South Turramurra, West Pymble and Cheltenham which are to the north and east. I have to be honest - I did have a bit of a laugh when I saw “Great Western Sydney” as anything to do with Epping! Very funny ;) I was shown this by a local member whom I am close with since it isn’t true, and people were confused as it didn’t make much sense. But I can provide sources to show you that Epping is part of the Upper North Shore (aka. Northern Suburbs). Even though it has been slightly unclear if it is part of the Hills District or the Upper North Shore, councils, businesses, media and real estate have always acknowledged the suburb as the Upper North Shore, sometimes mistakenly for the Lower North Shore as it is nearby Lane Cove, Ryde, Macquarie Park and even Chatswood. Epping is considered to be the further most West suburb of the Upper North Shore, as suburbs such as Carlingford and North Rocks, located west of Epping, are in the Hills District (north-western suburbs). We also receive the “Upper North Shore” media panthlets such as newspapers, Yellow Pages etc. I hope you find this information helpful and informative! If you must, you can speak to some locals in the area because they’d be very confused if you said western Sydney! Haha! Thanks for your message though mate : ) Spp908 (talk) 11:57, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the geography lesson, Spp908, but I have lived in Epping for the last 30 years so I'm reasonably familiar with all that. But my opinion doesn't count on Wikipedia - articles here are not based on editors' personal experiences. They are not based on what our friends say, or what "everybody knows". Instead, they are based on what is documented in reliable sources about the subject. You say that you can provide sources to support your claim that Epping in NOT part of Greater Western Sydney - please do so. The NSW Department of Planning's "Metropolitan Strategy" includes all of Parramatta LGA in "Greater Western Sydney", and that includes Epping. The University of Western Sydney agrees. So if you have a better source, please raise it at Talk:Epping, New South Wales before making the change - it is disruptive to keep making changes that are not supported by references. Your change also leaves the Epping article inconsistent with other articles such as Greater Western Sydney - this is why we discuss changes first, to be sure we co-ordinate all the related articles. Please don't change the article again until it is discussed with all related editors and a consensus is reached. --Gronk Oz (talk) 16:54, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for responding - you stated that the western Sydney University “agrees that Epping is part of the West” which is totally preposterous and absurd for you to reference, since they are talking about PARRAMATTA, not the whole council. You must provide references of where it says Epping is part of the West, and also - I think you need a geography lesson. “GREAT Western Sydney” is WEST of Parramatta.”

@Spp908: I still don't see any sources to support your claim. Whereas there is very solid source to support the claim that Epping is included in the Greater Western Sydney region - the NSW Department of Planning's "Metropolitan Strategy" includes all of Parramatta LGA in "Greater Western Sydney". Epping is in the Parramatta LGA; it has been since the council amalgamations of June 2016. If you have a source that you think is more reliable than the government's Department of Planning, then please provide it. Otherwise leave it alone. Do not keep making changes without providing any sources. And please keep the conversation civil - let's focus on the issue and the references that support it, not personal insults. --Gronk Oz (talk) 14:28, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if I was not clear before - please provide sources to support your changes, not just vague unsupported comments like "Epping is argueably both Upper North Shore and The Hills. This has been unclear though all realestate, government and local councils (Including Hornsby Shire, Parramatta)". You said earlier that you have sources, but you have refused to provide them. Your personal opinion and mine are not important here: it is all about what reliable sources have to say. If you disagree with the NSW Department of Planning's position on this, then take it up with them - Wikipedia is not the right place to have that debate. If you have a different source that has comparable weight, then cite it. Hornsby Council has nothing to do with Epping, nor does The Hills. You are a new editor so I want to keep this friendly, but you should be aware that persistent disruptive editing can result in penalties, including edit bans. As I said before, the correct action is to gather your sources and then discuss your proposal at Talk:Epping, New South Wales before making the change.

I have spent all day in hospital with a family emergency, and will be spending more time there, so I will check again when I get back.--Gronk Oz (talk) 13:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have simply told you the sources of my knowledge of the district, and I will have to repeat myself again. First of all, it is not a personal opinion, and there is no insult that has been published by me whatsoever. Epping NSW has been declared as part of the Northern Suburbs/Upper North Shore by Macquarie University, realestate.com.au, Domain.com.au, Northern District Times and North Shore times, Yellow Pages, The NSW government (planning projects, rail corridor projects such as the Epping to Chatswood Raillink ECRL, NSW Priority Precint Infrastructural Developments), Parramatta Council, Hornsby Council and all Television media such as ABC, Channel 7, 8 and 9 (refer to documentaries and news reports). Please research this for reference. Thank you for your time and efforts along this.

@Spp908: Ah, now I think I see the source of the confusion. Three things: firstly, "sources" in Wikipedia means specific documents that you link to. So instead of just saying something like "Parramatta Council" above, it would be much more helpful to provide a link to the actual document where Parramatta Council states that Epping is NOT part of the same region as the rest of its LGA. Stick to reliable sources: things like real estate agents' web sites are not authoritative. And please be sure they are relevant: I just tried to follow up your mention of the North Shore Times - I went through every edition for the last twelve months and I cannot find any mention of anything even remotely related. I won't do your research for you - it's up to you to provide the most reliable evidence you can to support your contention. Secondly, the question is whether Epping is in the Greater Western Sydney region, not whether it is also in the Northern Suburbs. Bear in mind that these regions can overlap sometimes, especially when they are used for different purposes such as railways vs administration. The article says it is in both, so it is expected that some sources will say one, and some will say the other. Sources that say it is in the Northern Suburbs are not sufficient - they would need to exclude it from the West.

Thirdly, I worry that this whole topic is about to get a lot more complicated again due to government re-organizations. The NSW government's old Department of Planning proposed changing to new "subregions" which would put Epping in the "Central West Subregion". Then they re-organized and the new Department of Planning and Environment has released discussion papers that propose dividing the city into three new, completely different regions. This is not official yet, but if the current proposal gets approved then Epping will be classified as part of the "Central River City".^[1]^: p.7 But to add an extra level of confusion, that same proposal will also divide Sydney into five "districts" and Epping would be in "Central City" district.^[1]^: p.17

On a personal level (getting away from sources for a moment), I really struggle to understand the reluctance to acknowledge that Epping lies to the West of the city. A quick check of the map shows that Epping is at a position angle of 305 degrees from Sydney CBD - significantly closer to West than to North. I can only imagine it arose because it is generally considered more prestigious to be North than West. But that's all a personal aside - what matters is not my opinion, it's what we can provide specific references to support. And the way things are going at the hospital, it looks like my time to check up on leads will be very limited over the coming week or so, sorry.--Gronk Oz (talk) 03:38, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b "Draft Greater Sydney Region Plan". www.greater.sydney. Click to "Download the Full Plan": Greater Sydney Commission. Retrieved 10 February 2018.

Hi there, thanks for your response - very interesting is the governments new plan to divide the city into either 3 or 5 new regions! You are correct, Epping IS in a location that is difficult to determine the exact region of. I shall give you some references to support my knowledge of Epping, but I’m afraid I am incredibly busy this week and I will hopefully have it ready for you by next week. Funny, I also just received the new Yellow Pages on my doorstep on Friday, and it did say “Hills District & Upper North Shore”, but I guess, like you said, it doesn’t support anything to do with the exact region Epping lies on. Thanks for your time and patience and hope all is well in hospital.

Hi there, long time! Hope all is well. I just thought of this recently and remembered to bring this up, as you wanted some more cources as proof that Epping is viewed as Upper North Shore. One way to put this simply is to view the Yellow Pages website, and enter Epping, NSW 2121 to order the regions book, which is the Yellow Pages Upper North Shore & Hills District edition. Also, if you’d like I have some news edits, newspaper articles and other suggestions that Epping is part of the Upper North Shore district, even reports arguing if it is the Hills District. However I’m not so sure how to share some of this media with you on here, only some links which I can share when I have the time. Thank you!

February 2018[edit]

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Epping, New South Wales. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been reverted.

If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant notice boards.
If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.

Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continual disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Your changes must be based on documented sources, not personal opinion. As I have told you twice before, if you want to suggest a change then discuss it first on the article's Talk page - do not persist in making changes that contradict the reliable sources. Gronk Oz (talk) 14:17, 7 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[DGSRP-1] "Draft Greater Sydney Region Plan". www.greater.sydney. Click to "Download the Full Plan": Greater Sydney Commission. Retrieved 10 February 2018.

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