User talk:SideMaster

Under the Cristiano ronaldo page there is a error with his club career in the Manchester United section it says he is honoured as the 100000th member of the club. Before that it says 2013 instead of 2003. If you could make that change it would be great:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erika dancer14 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

January 2012

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Jesé Rodríguez

Hi there SM, AL from Portugal here,

in this player's article, please don't: 1 - remove the fact he has been called by the first team for preseason, because it's REFERENCED, and it's good to mention that fact in such a young player; 2 - insert the wikilink in Cristiano Ronaldo in STYLE OF PLAY, he is already linked in the very first line of CLUB CAREER, what you did is called overlinking.

Let's all respect each others approach and reach a compromise shall we? Attentively --AL (talk) 15:44, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi AL. I think that he has been re-called by the first team for preseason should be removed, because he has ALREADY made his unofficial debut (one year before). By the way, he has made his official debut in La Liga and Copa del Rey debut. That why I think it is not necessary to have that he had been re-called for the preseason. But I agree with a little with you. He is young, and his situation is exciting. I will let it be there for now, but after the preseason and before the 2013-14 season, I will remove that. Because he will be in the first team or move to an another first division team. Then it will not be important to have that he was re-called for the preseason, because he had already made his unoffical and offcial (La Liga and Copa del Rey) debut one year before.

I hope you agree with me, so we can remove it after the preseason. --SideMaster (talk) 21:51, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I think BOTH pre-season references should be left there PERMANENTLY, but i agree with you, next year he will either be sold to another club where he will be important, or be promoted to Real's first team where he will begin to get some minutes, so we don't need to make reference to the preseason again. Regards. --AL (talk) 22:07, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

• I had to remove your latest additions to PLAYING STYLE because YouTube is not a reliable source here. You don't believe me you can ask anyone at WP (administrator or not), they'll tell you the same. Tomorrow, i'll see if anything can be retrieved.

Also: 1 - please, no need for sub-sections in storyline for same club; 2 - please, the Midfielder#Winger wikilink is the correct for the winger player position, leave it be. Attentively - --AL (talk) 00:10, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Have already reinstated what i could in STYLE OF PLAY (Zidane's praise of the player), the rest (YouTube) is not encyclopedical, please don't insert it again, it will save WP in general a lot of trouble in cleanup. I repeat, if you doubt what i'm saying, ask anyone (for example User:GiantSnowman, an administrator connected with the football field here). --AL (talk) 00:22, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• What's the issue here guys? GiantSnowman 08:05, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Long story short: STYLE OF PLAY section was ripe with praise (and overpraise) on the player's abilities, with...none other than YouTube as the primary source. I reverted/composed what i had to/could, advising SideMaster not to use said site as a WP source. Correct no? --AL (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

yes, we need to remain neutral, see WP:NPOV. I have cleaned the article up briefly. GiantSnowman 14:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Please, just YOUTH and SENIOR sections suffice, i'll give that to you, but no need for SEASON-BY-SEASON sections. OK? Thanks --AL (talk) 20:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

• Please read my last edit summary. --AL (talk) 20:54, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Why did you add more YOUTUBE refs in text? I thought myself and GiantSnowman were pretty clear on the subject. Please don't, please. However, i do congratulate you for improving the article dramatically, with sources, but i insist, don't add sources (YouTube) that are not acceptable in an encyclopedia. --AL (talk) 22:52, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

SideMaster, please see WP:YOUTUBE for why we should not really be using YouTube as a reliable source. Both of you need to use the article talk page to discuss matters. GiantSnowman 08:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I tried to find a article about that, but i couldn't. Thats why I used the Youtube video, because it is a interview with him after his amazing solo goal. I hope we can add just that Youtube source in the article, because he says he want to stay at the club. I won't add it back, before I get your answear. SideMasterSideMaster

Hi, if the information is not covered by independent reliable sources then we should not be including the information. Regards, GiantSnowman 11:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I think, we should add it. It is his view of his situation at the club. It wont hurt, if we add only one Youtube source to the article. Look at the James Rodríguez or Eden Hazard articles, they use several Youtube videos as source. I think we can add one Youtube link, it wont hurt. SideMaster

Just because other articles are incorrect and use YouTube does not mean that it is allowed on this article, or any other. GiantSnowman 11:47, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

That I'm trying to say is that we can use one Youtube source. It is the only source we have that comfirms that he said that. And this video shows that him saying that to the camera. If other articles can use several Youtube soruces, it won't hurt this article if we use ONLY one Youtube source. SideMaster

No, we cannot use this source. A video of a player saying "wow, I scored an amazing goal" is not suitable for an encyclopedia. GiantSnowman 12:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Forget it, I found a article. But it is in Norwegian. Can I add it now with the new reference? SideMaster

If it is a reliable source then the language of the source does not matter. However, ensure that your wording about it it neutral. GiantSnowman 10:00, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• Can you PLEASE stop adding the season-by-season headers SM? Only "youth" and "senior" suffice. Also, in late CLUB CAREER, transfermarkt.com is not adequate as ref, it's good as a LINK with stats, and i've heard the football community here at WP say it's not that reliable as a link either, even though it's often allowed to stay (as a link that is, not as a ref). Yes, i know i do not own the article, that is why i use the word "please", can we reach a compromise?

Thanks --AL (talk) 19:09, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Why should we dont have season-by-season headers? Cristiano Ronaldo WK has "2003–2006" and "2006–2009" headers, Neymar WK has "Youth" and season-by-season ("2009 season" (the season he was promotion to first team)), and Messi WK has "2005–06 season" (the year he was promtoed to first team). Jese will be promoted to first team, and therfore should we have a "2011-2013" header for his time at Real Madrid B, and a "2013-" header for his time at the first team. Just like CR WK "2003-2006" (his first years at MU) and "2006-2009" (when he became a importent first team player). The Jese article will be long a day, and therefore should we use season-by-season headers after the "Youth" header. You do now own the article, and should be happy that other people tries to make it better. I hope you now understand why we should have season-by-season headers.

Thanks --SideMaster (talk)

• Yes, that's what i was saying, i do not own the article, but you don't own the article as well, it's a team effort. Yes you have made great contributions to Jesé's page, but just listen to this please: i think that more than 80% of the footballer articles don't have season-by-season sections, even good articles. Keep in mind that, in Jesé's case, you have REAL MADRID as a sub-section, then YOUTH and SENIOR as a sub-sub-section, to have sub-sub-sub-section of years is too much already.

Happy week from Portugal --AL (talk) 15:49, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

We dont need SENIOR as sub-sub-section, just change it with 2011-2013 and 2013-. We dont need sub-sub-sub-section with 2011-2013 and 2013- under the SENIOR sub-sub-section. Its no need for SENIOR as sub-sub-section, just change with 2011-2013. Several players such as Neymar and Messi have years as sub-sub-section, and the first years sub-sub-section is the year that they were promoted to the first team at Santos and Barcelona. Thats why we should change SENIOR as sub-sub-section to 2011-2013 sub-sub-section. I have always listen ti what you have said and what you have done on the Jese page, so I hope that you can this time listen to me and do as I want. This is as you said a team effort, and I hope that this time you listen to me and change SENIOR as sub-sub-section to 2011-2013 sub-sub-section.

Thanks --SideMaster (talk)

• Maybe like i have done now? Please check it. --AL (talk) 01:15, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was very good. I liked it very much, thank you. Hopefully now, we both are happy. --SideMaster (talk)

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Jesé Rodríguez - Again

Hi there SM, AL here,

i see you have written it again, please (PLEASE) Youtube is not a reliable source here, i have removed it from the STYLE OF PLAY section. Also there, we are FORBIDDEN here from copying phrases/words from websites or we will engage in copyright violation, so i had to majorly compose the stuff there ("bamboozle", "trickery", etc).

INTRO: no need to be mentioning the Ronaldo comparisons everywhere, that does not belong in intro, but in the STYLE OF PLAY section, Ronaldo gets enough publicity already, we don't have to be talking about him all the time.

About dates in references, we must write (example) "24 July 2013", not "2013-07-24" OK? Also, i though we had agreed on the subsections (YOUTH, CASTILLA and FIRST TEAM, leaving the years out), why change it again? And, no need to write "Jesé" all the time in same paragraph, sometimes "he" or "the player" is quite enough.

I will ask for an administrator to come by and drop his opinion, especially in the YOUTUBE and COPYVIO issues if you don't believe me. Happy weekend, keep up the good work --AL (talk) 00:37, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Please wait until you hear what this admin has to say (although he already told you on 5 June 2013, on this very talk page "No, we cannot use this source. A video of a player saying "wow, I scored an amazing goal" is not suitable for an encyclopedia."!) before you revert me OK? Thanks again --AL (talk) 00:41, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

AL is correct - as you have already been told, we cannot use a YouTube video as a source, see WP:YOUTUBE and WP:OR. GiantSnowman 08:17, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I'm sorry for the mistakes. Youtube source wont happen again, and hopefully copying phrases/words from websites wont happen either. QUESTION 1: I think we should have the Ronaldo comparisons mentioned in the INTRO as Neymar have it in the intro (comparison to Pelé) and Messi (comparison to Maradonna). What is your say on the matter? QUESTION 2: "Jesé's best position is on either wing side of the field, often cutting inside from the wing, both with the ball and without, to create chances and scoring goals." I think this paragraph (which you removed) should be in the STYLE OF PLAY section, because this is how he plays and scores. I have seen his play, and this is how he does it. I wont add the Youtube source again, but i think this paragraph should be in his article. What should I do? What do you think about it? Happy weekend to you too AL, keep up the good work and if I do a mistake again, you are welcome to talk to me again. --SM (talk) 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello there then! You have heard it from the admin's mouth, you can't add those words "Jese's best position is on either wing..." if it's copied directly from a website, it's copyright violation as i explained previously, we have to do it in our own words.

About Ronaldo in intro, i don't think it should be there still, only in the end of his career or something similar. I have NEVER edited on Neymar's or Messi's page, but i think it's wrong the comparison to other players are in the intros. Introductions are for the following: clubs represented (sometimes you can add the fee of a transfer, if it was of great significance), honours won (not all if they are just too many, just a glimpse), then the same for his accomplishments with the national team, if any. That's what should be in intros, you're welcome to ask Mr. Snowman's opinion to see if i'm in the wrong, of course.

Regards as always --AL (talk) 18:21, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

• I have reinserted some more in STYLE OF PLAY ;) --AL (talk) 18:27, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Jesé

Hey, i did watch the game. So if that is notable, we should add every successful dribbling that led to a goal after 18 more passes or so to every player. He did not even had a assist, which makes his role even smaller than you believe it is... You can't OWN an article. Kante4 (talk) 15:48, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I dont OWN the article, but I'm very sure that YOU think that YOU OWN IT. What is the problem? This is the first game that he had a big role for a goal. Your exampel is dump. 18 more passes? He just made ONE pass to Varane, who just did a tap to Morata. It is not a assist, but it is the best he has done for a goal for the FIRST TEAM. The source I added states: "But Morata, ..., coolly drove in his goal to finish a move started by fellow youngster Jese Rodriguez". It dont even say that Varane passed it, because it was a goal made by Jese. You should begin to read the sources I add to. -Regards, SideMaster (talk) 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Great writing style... Just because he made a pass/dribble does not make it notable. We have to add a section/sentence about that game to the player who passed it to him, and the player before and so on... Your arguing is not good. And how about a save from Lopéz earlier which helped Real to have a chance to win the game, add that maybe to his article. See where this is going? Oh, and own? Not after i read the sections above... And brought this up at WPFooty! Kante4 (talk) 17:28, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Has the dribble/pass been covered in detail by reliable sources? No. Therefore it should not be included - this is pure WP:FANCRUFT. GiantSnowman 17:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• Please read (and participate in of course) this discussion (see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#More_Jes.C3.A9_to_go). Regards --AL (talk) 12:40, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

More: please leave full names in storyline OK? Compression is for infobox and intro, and his last stuff in CLUB CAREER is the start of a new paragraph, because the previous one was getting a bit "full" already.

Thanks. --AL (talk) 01:26, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

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Jesé

Hi there SM, how's it going?

Please report to the article's talk page, there is something that needs discussion in my opinion.

Cheers --AL (talk) 01:28, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Me chipping in here. I reduced some thing on the article that does not need mentioning. Not every assist, goal is important. Or we can add every saved shot to a goalkeepers article and so on. Important goals are fine (But again, not every goal is one!). Kante4 (talk) 21:20, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I dont understand why you removed that so I pasted it back, because these performances has got him a place in the XI and made him a important for player for the team. I removed the last sentence, because that goal was not so important as the team already had a away goal in the tie (from the first game). I think that you are just talking bullshit when you are saying "Or we can add every saved shot to a goalkeepers article and so on", why are you comparing his article with a goalkeepers. Just look at the articles of Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi, Van Persie or even Rooney who are forward (and they are the one you should compare Jese with, not a goalkeeper). They all got goals and assists that are not so important for the team mentioned, so I think you should stop with saying that "we can add every saved shot to a goalkeepers article and so on". Please. SideMaster 03:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Deleted it for now again. Are those assists noted in the references or that he captured a XI spot? The goal was more important because it sealed the deal... Ok, we can add every made pass to a players article if you not get it what i meant with the goalkeeper, which would be sad... -.- Kante4 (talk) 15:42, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Those assists are noted in the given references. To give a unnecessary pass is something else to give a assist. A assist is the making of the goal, which should be mentioned as he made the goal for his team needed it, while a unnecessary pass that dont look up the defence dont need to be mentioned. I'm adding it back again. When great players like Messi has assist mentioned, I think that a great talent like Jese should also have it mentioned as he has become a important player for the team, BECAUSE OF THESE PERFORMANCES. SideMaster 20:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

My opinion, as it was i that asked Kante to engage in conversation with you and/or mediate because i was having some doubts: OK, i imagine all that Real Madrid storyline that has been the center of the edit war is not all that "dangerous" and it can stay, but please: from now on (meaning until the day he retires, not for a few weeks or months), we must stick to the essential, meaning important goals (Champions League, Spanish Cup or league deciders), transfers if they occur and debuts (for a possible new club or the Spanish national team).

The PERSONAL and STYLE OF PLAY section need nothing else, in the first we have already spoken of his parents and first child, that's enough; in the second, EVERY aspect of his skill is now well covered, so please leave those be, please.

Kind regards to you and Kante, happy editing --AL (talk) 00:25, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

• Kante gets a reply, i do not. Are you upset with me in any way? If so, why please?. --AL (talk) 20:33, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

OK you are angry with me, fine. My conscience is clear, i did no harm to you and always tried to help you the best i could. Goodbye --AL (talk) 21:47, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Just to notify you i have reverted your last edit (not both, just the last), you have AGAIN engaged in overdetail, writing about not two consecutive games, but FOUR. Again, i repeat i am ready to apologize if i have offended with an action/summary/edit (but you have to tell me what it was if you please) but the article has to be (not just Jesé's, all articles) in good shape. --AL (talk) 04:50, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what hurts you so much? It was just one extra line that states "his form also continued in the league when used, with goals against Athletic Bilbao, Villarreal CF and Getafe CF." I think these goals was important as he opened the scoring against Bilbao (that goal also helped his team with 1 point in the end) and Getafe, his goal against Villarreal was the 3-2 goal (and thus the winning goal for his team). I think these performances should be mentioned as he is trying to break into the XI, and these performances just help him more for his target. You said just important goals should be added, and these goals were important for his team (two openers and one winner). It was just one line that stated it all, not a paragraph that you are making of it with your "OVERDETAIL view". --SideMaster (talk) 01:2, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Your arguments have convinced me partially (yes, two of his goals were openers, but irrelevant for the game outcome, especially against Getafe), so i have reinstated the info, with refs. Now, for part two of this message: please, are you upset with me or not? I would like to apologize if that's the case. --AL (talk) 02:21, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

But i drop this discussion with the following words, which if it won't clarify once and for all what overdetail is, then nothing will i am afraid: imagine if Jesé, in the not-so-distant future, scores seven goals in seven different games (in the same season i mean) as ALL games end 1-0. Would you write about ALL of them? No you would not, that's overdetail, especially in the case of a guy like him, he's a forward, he's expected to score.

Then again, that's just a fantasy, at least at Real Madrid, Jesé can play all he wants at world class level (as he did in the last months), he will always play second-fiddle to the foreigners, especially if the foreigners cost €250 million combined and he cost ZERO! Happens at Madrid and 99,9999999999999999999% of the clubs in the world...

Attentively --AL (talk) 15:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi AL. No, I am not upset with you, and you don't need to apologize . I thought that these goal was important, but I'm glad that my arguments convinced you partially. Of course I wouldn't add about every of these seven goals from seven games. 1, because in the future he will in the XI and these goals wouldn't say much about his personal goal, because he is in the XI in the future. If he had scored these goals today, then I would have thought it was important to add about several of goals as it was for his personal goal. 2, I would have added about these goals like his Bilbao/Valencia goal as it was important for his team (it were league game and thus gave the team 1/3 important point for the title race). He can make it to the first team, as long Zidane believe in him, and unlike the other youngster (like Morata) the president has faith in him. I think he will be their star player from like 2016 (he will be 23), if Real should hold him so long. Ronaldo is getting older, and in his 32-33, he will play less, and Jese will take that place. --SideMaster (talk) 02:13, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, happy week --AL (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

I changed from "the following three weeks" to "when used", because when you write "the following three weeks", readers want to know when he scored his next goal. Lets say, after a month, he scores his next goal, then readers want it to be like "... he scored his next goal after one month." And we dont want overdetail so "when used" is much better, as he is isnt playing every game or a starter. So please don't revert it. His next goal we mention should be a important goal for him or the team so "when used" is better. --SideMaster (talk) 00:57, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, i won't. Now, my turn to ask a favour, PLEASE don't re-add that stuff you wrote in the "personal" section, it's 300% irrelevant. Like i said in my summary (and i elaborate here now), this is an ENCYCLOPEDIA, not a fan forum or a tabloid newspaper. We cannot care less about who does his son live with or if the couple is in a relationship, we care about his FOOTBALL exploits, and that's it.

The only reason to extend that section is if, for example, is father/mother/son (or Jesé himself) grows ill and needs a transplant from him (or the other way around), not even if the parents/wife die because they don't have an article in here. To show i want to compromise, i have written a few words of choice about the relationship; and by the way, we don't write "...is not in a relationship anymore" in an encyclopedia, no present tense please.

Attentively --AL (talk) 03:09, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

There, tried the best i could, all in all your work was pretty much untouched except for the grammar. But please, keep this in mind: if Jesé becomes a father again, unless the mother of the baby is the Queen of England or similar, it's not encyclopedical. --AL (talk) 03:16, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

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Ronaldo

Of course realmadrid.com says he won it but he was not included in the squad. And with that, he has the honour not on wikipedia, just like every other player. If you disagree, use the talk page to discuss (again, because it was a while back). Don't revert again before discussion, else you risk to get blocked. Kante4 (talk) 21:25, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

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