User talk:Major Bonkers/Archive 1

Meltdown

Do you happen to know what happened here? (it's supposed to be red) Anynobody 02:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Bit of a strop, I expect. I've noticed that some people blank their User pages as a form of pissed-off protest (eg. Guy) and others seem to be under the bizarre delusion that, in not posting a User page, they are somehow saving Mr. Wales a vast sum in server-hosting charges.

See also: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC/Proposed_decision. As far as I can work out, someone called Tony Sidaway referred to Bishonen as a 'bastard bitch from hell'. He did this on the Admin IRC, and a whole load of Bishonen-enthusiasts, whose names will be wearisomely familiar, then took it upon themselves to vandalise the corresponding Wikipedia article, Wikipedia:IRC_channels/wikipedia-en-admins - in other words, doing themselves exactly what the rest of us are always told not to do. It's all up before the ArbCom, who, seem to be adopting a bit of fudge for the resolution of this latest outbreak of cretinism; the obvious judgment would be a de-SysOp-ing of any Admin found to have engaged in naughtiness, but that's not happening. This is Giano's 4^h. ArbCom in eighteen months.--Major Bonkers (talk) 13:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It is difficult to believe that we're to listen and respect such a bastion of rational self control. Though it does make actions like blocking someone out of the blue without warning or resenting those who disagree with her much easier to understand.

These are strange times where I'm finding it difficult to understand why people do what they do. Giano must be some sort of masochist, I can't think of a recent arbcom case that actually resolved anything so being involved in yet another case seems a bit, odd.

Speaking of weird things people do, did the Cruiser make any news in your area regarding the video of him speaking about Scientology and their legal actions to get it nixed from the web? (I assume the biography did.) Anynobody 01:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, my own take is that some people take Wikipedia far too seriously; the puerile palimpest that runs alongside the actual articles - the various Talk pages, AN/I, ArbCom, etc. - is generally so stupid that it - it seems to me - actually discourages anyone with any sense or maturity from contributing. My feeling about Lloyd's of London is that it is a place where any honest man should be ashamed to say that they do business, and my feeling about WP is rather similar. Most of us have got better things to do than waste our time with somebody else's out-of-control children.

During the Troubles ArbCom, someone explained to Rockpocket how they had managed to track down one of the participant's (W. Frank's) address, because he had used his real identity; they had had to go through a number of reasonably complicated steps to work it out. Rockpocket was astonished that anyone would bother to go to the effort, and I have to say that I agree with him: it strikes me as completely bizarre.

Regarding Giano, he pops in for a chat over here every so often; I've nothing against him - he's always been polite to me (if forceful) - but the relationship that he has with the ArbCom doesn't seem particularly healthy. I suspect that they rather need each other.

By the way, I have added some links to photographs in our recent discussion which is now in my archive; I'm too idle to drag the whole thing out, but you'll find links to our esteemed politicians making clear their contempt for the rest of us. As for the Cruiser, see: Tom Cruise compared to Joseph Goebbels; of course, in one important respect this comparison is completely false! --Major Bonkers (talk) 15:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more, there are quite a few people who definitely take it way more seriously than they should. I've seen more than one meltdown where a person swears off ever contributing here again and is back sooner or later anyway. (If you watch User talk:Jimmy Wales long enough you'll see a few of them. Here's one that looks ready to go critical soon User talk:Jimmy Wales#Your Lack of Involvement on Wikipedia and other Wikimedia Projects) I feel embarrassed for them, choosing to flip out in such a public forum over essentially nothing.

I have nothing against him either, actually I feel like he is generally misunderstood. (Whatever the case, he didn't really want to be on the arbcom even if he doesn't realize it yet.)

Wow, the Goebbels aspect is even more creepy, when reading their reply: ... urging other people to become involved in similar humanitarian activities to the betterment of all. After all, the Nazis only wanted "help" the rest of the world too. (They'd of been better off either saying nothing or saying, "Yeah, he likes being a Scientologist..." instead of suing to have it removed and implying the good of human kind is involved.) Anynobody 08:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find the link to Herr Wales' Talk page - I expect some helpful Admin has 'oversighted' the rant in question.

You're probably interested in more fallout from The Cruiser: Hackers wage web war on Scientologists. I can't help feeling that he should worship something more normal, like Great Cthulu, for example. But why would anyone pay any attention to his religious proselytising, or his political views, come to that? He's only a hack actor, not particularly well-educated, and his views are no more valid that anyone else's --Major Bonkers (talk) 18:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Definitely agree with you on the unimportance of the Cruiser's views, (except on oral care, the man has great teeth); I've never been a big Brad Pitt fan but he did earn my respect when some reporter asked him about his views on Tibet several years ago. He said something like "I'm an actor, who gives a fuck what I think about that?"

On the oversighted rant, I wonder if he ever bothers to read what others throw away or even knows it's going on. Anynobody 05:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I took your advice

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Law in Star Trek (second nomination). Tim Vickers (talk) 23:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification, although I'm not sure that you have taken my advice, which is to leave well alone.

As I say, my experience of these !votes and 'debates' is that they almost always end up pissing people off and generally cause more trouble than they're worth. To that extent I've become an 'inclusionist', although with the obvious exceptions of hoax and/or malicious articles. Whilst the subject of Law in Star Trek is certainly not to my taste, I have to recognise that someone has gone to a lot of work to produce it. I see that my other favourite example of misapplied labour, the Murloc (a creature from the World of Warcraft computer game), has also bitten the dust. In fact, if you are inclined, I suggest, the entire List of species in fantasy fiction could be reviewed 'with extreme prejudice'!

I suspect, in general terms, the problem is that some of the younger contributors enjoy editing articles such as these and, mutatis mutantis, deleting 'boring' articles, such as those of a 16h. century provincial farmer, and those of us of 'more mature years' have editing interests which are exactly the opposite. The end result is that you end up with a bizarre agglomeration of trivia rather than the 21t. century equivalent of the great Encyclopædia Britannica Eleventh Edition.

Anyway, although I don't propose to insert myself into the !vote, it looks to be shaping up into a most entertaining battle, so I shall certainly keep an eye on it! Good luck.--Major Bonkers (talk) 12:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

PS - I suppose this is a 'personal attack', but I really can't see why DGG can claim that Simon Dodsworth is OR ([...] I think the primary sources given represent the whole of the information available, and the subject has been discussed in no secondary sources at all.) and that Law in Star Trek isn't (This is a compilation of material sourced from the primary source in an obvious fashion, and thus not OR.). That's a bit Humpty Dumpty-ish to me; an example, perhaps, of policies and essays being used to support the editor's subjective opinions of worth.--Major Bonkers (talk) 12:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but we are all the prisoners of our POV, the best we can expect is that others will make us aware of our biases and assumptions. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I do hope they don't. CarbonLifeForm (talk) 18:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha! Let the war begin! Onwards, sons of James Tiberius Kirk! (I expect that they will win, simply on the grounds that there are more of them.)--Major Bonkers (talk) 19:34, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem, I thought your response above was quite thoughtful. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

For no reason at all

I felt it would be a good idea to address anyone's concerns about why some tragic events are called "massacres" here, just in case anyone was wondering. It's because the sources call them massacres, not because the Major says they are. If someone feels an equally tragic event should have the same label, all that's necessary is a source calling said event a massacre. For example, one might wonder why the Dublin and Monaghan bombings made it on the List of massacres since it's title calls it a bombing. Well indeed it was a bombing, but according to The Guardian it was a bomb massacre. In short, should anyone be concerned with these issues, it's not our opinions that matter so much as what the sources have to say. Anynobody 05:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for the link - I'd have missed it if you hadn't spotted it. I think that I agree with you; I looked again this morning at the list, and it seems extraordinary that various other massacres aren't there: the Holocaust being the most obvious, the 1930s Stalin-engineered famine in the Ukraine, and Mao Tse Tung's 'Great Leap Forward' and 'Cultural Revolution' (which, incidentally, are estimated to have killed 60 million people - 10 times the amount in the Holocaust) are all missing. Is Pol Pot's 'Killing Fields' in there? And what about the Siege of Jericho and (my own bug-bear) the Kitos War?

What ought to be a simple disambiguation page is, instead, a snake-pit of nationalist POV-pushers. My massacre's bigger than your massacre! --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

See Talk:List_of_massacres#Change_of_Direction.3F. Tyrenius (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I can recognise a poisoned chalice when I see one! As Samuel O'Goldwyn said, 'Include me out'! --Major Bonkers (talk) 08:06, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Have one on me: Major Ity. Tyrenius (talk) 12:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I have to admit I laughed. But what a bloody awful pun!--Major Bonkers (talk) 11:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

BLAH!

Thanks for pointing out my gaffe, Major Bonkers, I just had the quote running through my head but couldn't remember where it came from, and googled the quote, and this was the first hit that came up. [1]. That'll teach me to trust WikipediaGoogle ;) SirFozzie (talk) 18:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Sir F., I just couldn't stop myself! Not that you'd know from Wikipedia, but there's more to Ireland than the Potato Famine, the Troubles, and Massacres (there's Gunniness, leprechauns, the Blarney stone, Molly Malone, Bailey's Irish Cream, shamrocks, Irish Elk, wolfhounds, and stew). --Major Bonkers (talk) 08:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Famous majors

Hello. Would you be averse to the addition to your user page of Major Boredom, adjutant to General Apathy, as made famous by BF5's "Battle of Who Could Care Less‎"? --Sturm 00:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes please! ( [...] as made famous by [...] ?)--Major Bonkers (talk) 07:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Major

I have just joined and was following a trail of user pages. Yours was the most entertaining I have seen. I would not have dared put the one about the foxes, does it not get vandalised by black-hoodie wearing hunt sabbies? I am still working out how you do the 'user boxes', so as to put something very silly on my page. The gay orgy bit was priceless. Next stop Kittybrewster page as you say she (he?) helped out with yours. Best. West one girl (talk) 10:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

PS I 'borrowed' your user box thing and adapted it as you can now see on my talk page. I kept the 'Dame Shirley' one, however. Perhaps there should be a separate user category for this? West one girl (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Eh? Funny? I'm deadly serious. As for plagarism - words fail me! (Replied on your Talk page.) --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Wrong quote

I much prefer this one:

The David Lauder one has been categorically denied by the editor in question. It seems to me that Domer48 should either go for a checkuser or WP:AGF and let the matter drop.

Good advice wasn't it? How about an addition to your userpage - Major Fuckup perhaps? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what point you are making. If it is that David Lauder has acted foolishly in using two accounts, I'm not going to disagree with you; so, indeed, did your friend. If it's that I was somehow stupid in not spotting vote-rigging in an AfD, I point you to what I actually wrote: 'I saw no evidence of vote-rigging or concert-parties on the 'British' side'. If you read that carefully, it remains true: I didn't see any evidence of it and nor, incidentally, was any produced. Regarding my quotation, you've also edited out the highly relevant preceeding section: *Point 3: Domer48 has provided two diffs which allege abusive sockpuppetry. [...] I stand by (the entirety of) what I wrote because I draw a distinction between abusive sockpuppetry and using multiple accounts for valid reasons: as W. Frank and Kittybrewster felt obliged to do.

Whilst you're here, I can't really see the point in constantly picking at scabs. According to your own account, the root of the problem was the Diarmuid O'Neill AfD, which took place over a year ago. Since then we've had the ArbCom and things are more-or-less settled. Is it really desirable to stoke the embers in this unproductive way? If it is, we're going to be arguing back and forth until Judgment Day. Goodbye. --Major Bonkers (talk) 18:22, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Two accounts?! Christchurch, David Lauder and Chelsea Tory - that's three according to my rudimentary maths skills? And I don't consider my quoting any more selective than your reading. For example you claim Domer48 should have asked for a checkuser, but here is where the original sockpuppetry in question was discussed. I'll paste the relevant parts here to be on the safe side:

Unfortunately the evidence does appear fairly conclusive that you voted twice in that AFD, David Lauder. I would counsel you not to do so again. In fact, I'd recommend that everyone involved be on their best behaviour. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 03:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, this was the result of a checkuser showing it to be very likely indeed that the IP edits and David Lauder (talk · contribs) edits before and after the IP edits were from the same person........Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 20:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

You would agree that although then (July 2007) you hadn't seen any evidence of votestacking from the "British" side, you've seen plenty now yes? Note I'm referring to the new checkuser as well, not just those quotes.

As for W. Frank. If he'd chosen to ride off into the sunset and edit articles about Singapore and the like, nobody would be any the wiser would they? However, surely you must admit that he willingly engaged with Troubles editors and carried on the dispute with his new account? You'd agree with that yes? The diffs are in the checkuser to prove it if you really want to disagree?

Now for Kittybrewster. This isn't quite right. I'm sure you'll be pleased to know that Kittybrewster is happily editing Wikipedia. If I wanted to make public the account (or maybe even accounts, who can say?) he was editing using, I could easily do so. But I choose not to, as everyone deserves a second chance. W. Frank had a second chance, yet chose to blow it so I was happy to make sure it was brought to the attention of the relevant people. I'm sure you'll be reading this Kittybrewster, so be sure to bear that in mind won't you?

As for the rest, it depends how you define stoking the embers? I uncovered what I believed to be unacceptable behaviour, a deliberate attempt to votestack using multiple accounts in ArbCom elections. I'm sure, as an English (I assume?) gentleman, you believe in the spirit of fair play? I thought what I saw was grossly unfair, and acted accordingly. Belive it or not I am a fair person. I'm too lazy to track down the diff, but if you check AN you'll also see I was happy for Counter-revolutionary to be unblocked under certain circumstances, rather than campaigning for an indefinite block for him. Never got a word of thanks for that one though! ;) One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:45, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm quite keen to log off - it's bath-time for my son and I'm in charge - and I don't really see any great purpose would be achieved by continuing this conversation. Just for the record, I don't check AN/I regularly and so missed the first of the David Lauder discussions to which you refer and only came across the most recent one this morning. I don't think that threatening Kittybrewster, especially on this page, is particularly big of you, especially as he has just as much right to edit as you or I. Can I leave you with one observation: when I read your post, above, it seems to me that you are trying to persuade me or get me to admit that you are right. In some respects you are right - I can particularly appreciate a sense of justice - but, it seems to me, wrong in others. Frankly, however, why should you care what I think about you? Presumably when you look in the mirror you're satisfied that you have acted properly, and, on that basis good luck to you.--Major Bonkers (talk) 19:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's on the most recent AN discussion, bold as brass. Who said I was threatening Kittybrewster? That's a rather dubious interpretation of what I said. It's supposed to be more along the lines of "your secret is safe with me", which it is as I've no intention of making any information public if the account isn't used abusively. My intent was to reassure, not threaten. And as you say, he has just as much right to edit as you or I, providing it isn't disruptively.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 19:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Reassurance and paralipsis are easily confused. Choess (talk) 03:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the greeting. Ps, do you know how to give out warnings? This user, User talk:Stwrt, has continually removed sourced information from Lord Torphichen. Thanks, --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 21:16, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

I notice that this chap has a whole load of templates on his User page; it might be that one of them is what you're looking for: Fredrick day. This is also a quite useful page (although in a different context); Template:Who.

If and when you find it, would you mind sticking one on Kittybrewster's Talk page? Delighted as I am to have him back, he's been fiddling around with my additions to Ron Sandler. (Is it only me, or does this man look as though he's wearing a specs, nose, and beard novelty mask? - look closely the next time you see his photograph in the newspaper.) --Major Bonkers (talk) 21:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I've got one up now. Yes, he does rather! --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Very like a novelty mask. I was seeking to reflect what was written in the article as opposed to your interpretation of it. Kittybrewster ☎ 21:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

WR

The thread in question is still there, you might want to consider registering an account even if you don't want to post. Just a hint.... One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:06, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I find there's quite enough fruitless drama here without going elsewhere for more. On the other hand, I am grateful to Astrotrain because his postings keep me up to date. Oddly enough, at the beginning of the week I was looking for a 'common sense' barnstar for Tyrenius - I'm sure that I had seen it somewhere, but couldn't find it - and I came across a 'rehabilitated' barnstar, which I very nearly posted you-know-where until I thought that it would be seen as a provocation. Moot now. I'm off to post on Rockpocket's Talk page and then bath-time calls. PS - despite all the nice things that they've written about me, perhaps you could please point out to them that I most definitely am not a fan of Guy! --Major Bonkers (talk) 20:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't make me spell it out, it's easy enough to read between the lines of what I just said surely? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:22, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

No, you don't need to spell it out. My attitude is that if it's in plain view, I'll look at it; if I have to exert myself, and especially if my signing-up could be construed as support, I can't be bothered. Given that Rockpocket's already complaining of harassment, posting on Wikipedia Review about him isn't likely to be helpful to anyone. --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother, MB. With the exception of a few well meaning souls, most of the regulars over there are genuinely bonkers. There was a thread there recently speculating who I am a sock puppet of, the two prime candidates being Durova and FeloniousMonk (which is kind of amusing, since I don't believe I have ever interacted with either of them). They were also trying to analyse my writing style to determine whether I am British or American. They were entirely wrong on both counts of course, but paranoia colours the mind (thats colour with a "u" for those watching), I suppose.

I just dropped by to note I agree with your comments at AN this evening. Referring to Lauder (the editor) in those terms is bad form. I wasn't aware that was happening, but it shouldn't. Rockpocket 07:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The last panel of 'Roadkill Bill' is unpleasantly accurate

Thank you for yours. Oh dear, as if there isn't enough drama over here, people seek more excitement over there; it looks like more of the same, but even more moronic (if such a thing is possible)! As a declaration of interest, I've previously been accused of running two sock-puppets, MJB and (the now banned) General Peabody.

I've also been giving some thought to the problems of anonymity and sock-puppetry. Starting with anonymity first: I very nearly began my editing career by posting using my real name - thank God I didn't - and swiftly decided against adding an e-mail link. Your own unpleasant experience demonstrates how valuable some form of anonymity is.

On the other hand, of course, we have these great searches for sock-puppets, which take up a huge amount of community time and effort. Under the current arrangements, sock-puppets can never be stopped; in certain circumstances, indeed, they are allowed (eg. editing pornography articles). The ease with which sock-puppets can be created and used to evade blocks and bans means that any effort to uncover them is effectively wasted because the editor can simply pop-up elsewhere and resume where he left off.

Added to this is the shear futility of hunting down sock-puppets: none of us came into Wikipedia with the burning desire to hunt down sock-puppets, yet productive editors are side-tracked into the aberrant behaviour of searching and cross-referencing hundreds or even thousands of Diffs and praised and rewarded for doing so. Try and imagine a conversation with someone who knows nothing about Wikipedia: editing is a collaborative process involving multiple anonymous editors iteratively creating and expanding articles. Fair enough, most people will get that and the altruism behind it. But then try and explain hunting down sock-puppets: 'But I thought anyone could edit?'; 'But you're not blocking accounts used for vandalism, you're blocking accounts used by a User who is disapproved of regardless of his contributions'; 'Aren't you supposed to WP:AGF and be (as much as possible) 'contributor-blind'?'; 'What's to stop him doing it all over again?'

The conclusion that I come to is this: that after a certain time, around when most editors start to work out that they need an archive and add one to their Talk page, there should also be some process whereby they can confirm their identity and, hopefully, avoid all the huge waste of effort, not to say poisoning of what should be a collaborative atmosphere, involved with sock-puppetry allegations and investigations. Uncorroborated anonymity is an idea whose time has been and gone. I think that Wikipedia produces decent articles despite the diverted effort involved in hunting down sock-puppets: the end result of this stupid 'Wiki-drama' is that it acts as a huge turn-off to anyone who comes to be involved in it.

Dealing with your second point, I was a bit disappointed by BrownHairedGirl's description which (I hope!) was more in the way of making her point rather than making a criticism of David Lauder. I have to admit that I'm not an expert on the subject, but British far-right politicians (as opposed to thugs) have a political philosophy of freedom under the law, economic liberalism, and restricted immigration, quoting Edmund Burke rather than their Continental cousins who quote Nietzsche and invade Poland. It came across as a bit weasel-y, I'm afraid.--Major Bonkers (talk) 13:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

"yet productive editors are side-tracked into the aberrant behaviour of searching and cross-referencing hundreds or even thousands of Diffs" - actually no. I didn't need to do that, as the evidence accumulated inside two hours was ample. And you are correct that describing DL as a "politician" is bad form, I think "letter writer" is more appropriate personally. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 15:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Top Gear (Kings Road)

I agree with your comment. I've added enough stuff to hold off a deletion. Pouncing on new articles with an AfD seems highly inappropriate to me and completely against the founding principles of the project. It might be useful to introduce a guideline that unless an article is clearly vandalism it should be allowed to stand for at least a month before an AfD is started. Much would be gained and nothing would be lost. SilkTork *^{What's YOUR point?} 11:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment, above, and your intervention on the article and AfD vote. I think that the AfD was very badly advised and, given that it was directed against a new editor's contribution, had the real potential to come across as either bullying or disparagement of West one girl's efforts. I notice that the nominator seems to have a thing about AfD's (see the big red notice on his Talk page), and I'm not convinced at all that what could be seen as a rather aggressive or proactive approach to deleting articles is particularly helpful: it certainly isn't presenting a welcoming face to new editors. There's some comments above, phrased rather pompously, I'm afraid, which set out my thoughts on AfDs in some more detail which you might be interested in. Regarding your proposal, I broadly agree with it; frankly, however, I think that an established editor concerned about something written by a new editor should make an effort to explain and educate that new editor rather than making free with the AfD templates, which is very much an easy option; this sort of thinking is, more-or-less, the purpose behind WP:BITE. I think that we have too many guidelines as it is; everyone knows, or should know, how to behave properly.

I'm fairly sure that one or two Admins keep an eye on this page; perhaps they'll either have a word with the miscreant or take your thoughts on a guideline forward! Thank you again. --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

wikidrama

I am both stupid, and love wikidrama lol! Thanks. I would love to be able to create a userbox. Is it difficult? Special Random (Merkinsmum) 12:43, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Glad you liked it! Well, don't make yourself stupider ^{which I don't believe for a moment, by the way} by continuing to read or (worse) post on WP:AN/I!

I made up a lot of the User boxes on my User pages myself, which took a lot of trial and error. However, the source code is still there, if you want to look, and it's simply a case of copying and pasting, and then substituting your own picture and text and, if you like, a different background colour. With your User box, I set up a sub-page, User:Major Bonkers/Wikidrama, which then becomes a template simply by, when linking to it, changing the squared-off brackets ('[' and ']') to the ogeed variety ('{' and '}'). If you click on the 'Edit this page' buttons and take a look at the source code, you'll see how it's done.

Do you think that the chart on the IQ page might be better that the picture of Ali G?

I'm afraid that I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, being entirely self-taught; however, if you'd like some help in your own efforts I'll do my best. (I find the continuous Wiki-drama so dispriting that I'm on a go-slow as far as editing is concerned at the moment until I recharge my batteries.)

Thank you for dropping by - it's good to know that my efforts weren't entirely wasted!--Major Bonkers (talk) 13:24, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

PS - see: Wikipedia:Userbox Maker. --Major Bonkers (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The Ali G is more funny than a chart IMHO lol he's intrinsically funny. I imagine Homer Simpson as the epitome of stupid, Ali G is more imaginative though. My Other Half just suggested Amy Winehouse. This is assuming you don't want to use an actual picture of a person with Downs Syndrome, but I think such a userbox would be rapidly deleted as not politically correct lol:) Thanks for the tips on making them- I may have to have a go!Special Random (Merkinsmum) 20:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't think we could use this [2] :) But w could use this [3]. I still think the Ali G is best :) Special Random (Merkinsmum) 11:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Ali G it is then - what a pity we can't get a better picture, though. I think that, on grounds of good taste, I must reject your other pictures!--Major Bonkers (talk) 16:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This user believes AN/I can be useful. Kittybrewster ☎ 18:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

...but it attracts the wrong sort of people; those WHO LIKE TO SHOUT A LOT, are prone to hysteria, post on the same topic over multiple pages, and get so caught up in the wikidrama that they neglect their useful work in editing for the joy of scoring points over their perceived enemies. Eventually there is often a spectacular departure from Wikipedia as it dawns on these individuals that, actually, no-one really cares about what they think and that they are viewed as a discordant minority.--Major Bonkers (talk) 18:22, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

PS - Have you seen Tyrenius's new signature? Isn't it awful.--Major Bonkers (talk) 18:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Very true. Kittybrewster ☎ 09:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Archive

Dar major, if only you could help me set up an archive page. I really don't have the faintest idea. I'm intrigued by the rat-eating. West one girl (talk) 15:22, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

PS I followed up the link to the rat-eating article. Very good, only, er, it needs a bit more flesh, as it were. I have a very old book that may have something on this. West one girl (talk) 15:25, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Major - thank you so much for putting the archiving thing on my talk page. I shall wait with pleasure as all those old items drop off. How did you know I am interested in fashion? Actually, it's the history of the 'Swinging London' period and the King's Road, John Steed and Emma Peel and all that, which I am interested in - but Union Jack coats were all very much part of that weren't they. I think your project runs the risk of unspeakable fashion train wrecks and great care recommended, perhaps consult with your wife at the next board meeting. I know this company has exactly the item you want but you want to avoid looking like an football hooligan. One possibility is vintage clothes shops (e.g. there's a good one at the lower end of the Fulham Rd near the junction with Finborough Rd). They won't have the item in stock but they really know the market, and if you can always get a local tailor to alter it for you. Otherwise it's the proper London tailors and I am sure they will do a good job but it will cost you probably thousands. I think it works better on women on the whole. Although this looks interesting. West one girl (talk) 19:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the link. I was certainly thinking of something a little more distinguished than wet-look plastic, though. The kilts on the same web-site look interesting, especially as they come with a built-in sporran: whoever came up with the idea of an 'all-in-one' is a genius (all the bits and pieces - sporran, kilt pin, and various armament - is terribly easy to lose, especially if you end the evening a little bit drunk).--Major Bonkers (talk) 11:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Limey!

I was reading up on early relations between our nations and thought I'd get your perspective on what a dumb-ass insult "limey" is, which as you probably know was a reference to the navy's desire for sailors who didn't get scurvy. I imagine the sailors liked the idea too, so someone using that as an insult seems dumb. (Personally it'd be like insulting people for doing something like brushing their teeth. "Ya tooth brushin' bastard!") Anynobody 05:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid that every British schoolchild is (or at least, was) taught that Captain Cook forced his sailors to drink lime juice on his great voyages of exploration. (Although I have read a book recently which suggested that there were earlier captains who pioneered this practice, but he got the historical credit.) The Victorians invented Rose's lime juice, still available today, for the purpose of preventing scurvy without having to carry a supply of fresh citrus fruit. Sir Francis Drake, in his circumnavigation of the world, by contrast, lost half his crew (although he did take a Spanish treasure galleon on the way). He also claimed California (or Nova Albion) for Queen Elizabeth, by the way, so I suppose that it's still technically ours... .

We British, of course, refer to you lot as 'Yanks' without distinction, although that, strictly speaking, only applies to Northerners. It comes out as 'short planks' or 'septic tanks' in cockney rhyming slang.

It's my belief, from what I've read, that Anglo-American relations, particularly in the 1920s, 1930s, and early 1940s, were poor, mostly due to American antipathy to the British Empire and stirred up by the Yellow Press. Winston Churchill (who, of course, had an American mother) did a great deal to improve relations with the Americans; we were lucky that FDR agreed to lend-lease whilst the then Republican party was strongly isolationist. Clearly, in retrospect, we can see that one of FDR's war aims was the weakening or dismantling of the Empire and in that he largely, through accident or design, succeeded. There was a small but influential opinion, by the way, (held by Evelyn Waugh and Alan Clark, amongst others) that Britain should have relaxed on the sidelines of the Second World War after Germany invaded the Soviet Union, and let those two fight it out between themselves; by continuing to wage war, Churchill was undermining the continued existence of the Empire after the war.

You might be interested in the book, 'Nemesis', by Max Hastings; it's all about the war against the Japanese - I think you'd enjoy it.

If you want to see the fur fly, by the way, keep an eye here! --Major Bonkers (talk) 16:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I can totally see calling someone a septic tank as an insult, not a very pleasant thing to be compared to. Being called, in essence, scurvy-free seems like a compliment. "Look at that limey!" reply "Thank you for noticing my bloodless gums. I feel good too :)" compared to "Look at that septic tank!" reply "Are you talkin' to me?" The yanks never came up with any good names for their "traditional" enemies, redcoats and grays. Limey for you, rebs for grays. Oh well, I suppose if I had to choose between cool names for my enemies and victory I guess victory would have to do ;)

Couldn't agree more about American's not giving a damn as the Nazi's, Italians and Japanese decided to expand until it showed up somewhat closer to home. (For the most part, there were some who knew what was really at stake and said so, but like those of us today who felt the Iraqi excursion was a bad idea, were ignored.) I've always felt the same about its attitude toward WWI, not worth worrying about until some Americans were on a torpedoed liner and a pie in the sky telegram was intercepted to Mexico both by Germans, that it became worth our while. (WWI was a prime example of a stupid war, it only accomplished setting up Europe for Hitler and Stalin.)

FDR, I believe, wanted us in the war badly (not so badly as to intentionally let us get "kicked in the balls" at Pearl harbor though). We're all lucky he was President then, however at the same time he did kind of blow it by not seeing Stalin for who he really was which brings me to the leader who did, Churchill. He was awesome, and we were lucky that he was running the show (for most of the war at least) in the UK. He wasn't flawless either of course, but you gotta love a guy who had such a way with words, ...But tomorrow I shall be sober while you will still be ugly. Seriously though I've actually used one of his quotes as a guide for editing here: Never give in — never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Unless a sensible reason can be stated for me to give in, I simply don't :) (Though he probably wouldn't have been my choice for a peace time PM.)

I personally think that while letting the Nazis and Commies slug it out would have been very pragmatic and sensible in the context of the Cold War, it gambles on the Soviets not losing. Had they actually lost, think what would've happened, Germany would have been able to exploit resources and the vast distance of the USSR to create factories well beyond the range of any plane flying from the UK and worse still possibly have been able to enter the Pacific War. Plus, without Stalin to worry about the Japanese could redeploy forces they had to keep in Manchuria to check the Soviets, making things even worse for the Chinese and other Allies in that theater. Of course we can all thank Hitler for thinking himself a general and screwing things up more than once, but still even with his meddling had the Reich been able to fully commit everything against the Soviets I think they had a good chance of winning.

I'll check out Nemesis, recent years have found my interest in the Pacific war increasing. I used to only be interested in the European theater because, whatever else one says about them, the Nazis had cool airplanes, tanks, and ships with interesting stories. (Graf Spee, Tiger tanks, Type XXI uboat and of course the Me-262). Anynobody 04:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes, but we had the bouncing bomb and the Tallboy bomb. And the Spitfire, surely the loveliest airplane, especially with the evocative roar of the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine. And the X-craft (powered by a bus engine). It's actually my contention that the British genius in warfare is for cobbled-together bits and pieces and the 'it's a long shot... but it just might work!' mentality. I suspect that we're actually pretty crap at the set-piece battle. The American mentality is to spend huge amounts of expensive effort in killing its enemies and rescuing its own: death by over-bombardment!--Major Bonkers (talk) 11:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I totally agree, our stuff was way better, for the most part and in the end. The British knack for innovation did indeed seem to be the cobbled together type sometimes, but it worked well more than once. We had our own "...kooky, but just might work" ideas too though, like the bat bomb. (Can't forget you folks did create the Merlin which was the final component in what I think was hands down the war's best fighters: The P-51B-C & D Mustangs but did you know the angled flight deck was another British innovation?) I don't know why, the Spitfire doesn't really appeal to me aesthetically as much as the Mosquito, but I have strange taste in "beautiful" aircraft.

death by over-bombardment! I think that sums up American research goals in WW II nicely. Especially considering what, how and when the war finally ended these goals were a factor in all aspects. Anynobody 03:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Bat-bombs - the mind boggles! It's as weird as the plan to make an aircraft carrier out of pycrete. --Major Bonkers (talk) 10:41, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Comrade Bean

Is it just me or does the new Russian President look like he could be a close relative of Mr. Bean? Anynobody 04:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure Mr. Bean. He looks like someone, though, I can't just remember who. Time for a new list: People who look like Dmitry Medvedev? His predecessor was supposed to look like Dobby or, more flatteringly, the bridegroom in the Arnolfini Wedding.--Major Bonkers (talk) 11:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Oi! I dinnough say 'e looked like Bean 'imself, but like a rela'ive or somfin, Uncle Boris Bean ya knob ;) Putin, or rather I should say, Dobby looks like Putin may indeed have provided inspiration but I wasn't aware Jan van Eyck stole his face too ;) Speaking of him though, I seriously doubt Putin had that guy who's name escapes me poisoned with Polonium. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't be surprised if the stuff came from a Russian source, but given the poisons known to be used by the KGB, I don't see why they'd choose something so 1) Toxic to whoever was delivering it 2) easily traceable and 3) took so long to work (weeks), when they could've just poked the guy with an umbrella and he'd of been dead three or four days later. Anynobody 03:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Help citing an example

I was thinking about examples of WP:BLP#People who are relatively unknown and was hoping you'd be able to provide an example well known in your neighbourhood like this one my from mine: I don't keep up with baseball so my details may be wrong, but a couple of years ago during a crucial game for some team, a fan caught a fly ball which was within reach of a player. Because the fan caught it, the ball was determined to be a foul, but had the player caught it the batter would've been out which was desirable for the home team who went on to lose. (If I remember correctly the fans mistake actually may have lost them the game) Anyway, that poor, dumb, bastard seems like a good example of someone who may have gotten news coverage but doesn't warrant an article here to cite when discussing the issue with Americans. Do you know of any poor, dumb, bastards one could cite for y'all? Anynobody 06:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Oddly enough, I was reading an article on just this subject in Wired magazine yesterday; see: Scott Brown's 72 Hours on the Long Tail of Celebrity. There's also the chap who tied all those helium balloons to his sun-lounger and floated away over Los Angeles airport (I think that he got an honorary mention in the 'Darwin Awards'). Posh Spice and Paris Hilton are excluded, I suppose, on the grounds that although pointless they are known. Could you, perhaps, include the Admin Guy? It's a bit of a difficult one: people that you have heard of but only so vaguely that you cannot remember their name. It would certainly be a long list! --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

You're thinking of Larry Walters, who does have an article! And for someone who got plenty of news coverage (mostly about what an odious racist thug he was...) try Matthew Simmons.One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

One Night In Hackney, thank you! Matthew Simmons is almost exactly what I was looking for :) And a thanks to the Major for knowing the baseball guy's name too :) I still plan on calling him "the baseball guy", lest the fact that his name is known derail my argument. Simmons will be called either the soccer or football jerk depending on the audience. (Speaking of the difference in names, I think part of the reason I never got into football as we call it in the US is because only one man on each team can legally kick the damn ball, so who thought to call it football? It'd be like calling soccer handball.) Anynobody 04:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Good Evening Major!

Dear Major Bonkers,

I don't believe you've had the pleasure of me before, but I've a small matter, well actually rather a long one, which may be of interest to someone of a military and distinguished bearing such as yourself. My cousin Leone Sextus Denys Oswolf Fraudatifilius Tollemache-Tollemache de Orellana Plantagenet Tollemache-Tollemache (an army man like yourself) has been moved with no consensus to a horrid little page with half his names removed as though he were a tradesman, or something of that ilk (dare I say, even an American). Perhaps you and your friends would would like to comment on the talk page. While dear Leon died honourably in the service of his King I have to confess there is little to make him notable other than his name, and it seems a travesty that he should be shorn of it. Do comment, you'll find yourself in most distinguished company.

While I'm here, I was wondering - are you of the Berkshire Bonkers? several of my distant cousins were Bonkers too, but of the Bedfordshire branch. I see you were at Harrow, many of my family were there, you are probably a contemporary of my brother Arsie (Viscount Broadmoor), I beleive you were in Elmfield too. It is so important that "our sort" stick together in these matters. Do drop by my page one afternoon, I usually take Lapsang Souchong at 4.

Your ever, Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you a sockpuppet [4]? Not that I worry very much about these things, but it's nice to know who I'm talking to (good manners, too, I dare say). Happy editing. --Major Bonkers (talk) 10:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

No, no, barking up the wrong tree there. However, I take your point, dear Major, but does one ever know who one is addressing on Wikipedia these days. I was only discussing this last month over dinner, at Birkhall, with the dear Duchess of Rothesay, a very close friend. Now do hurry up and go and save poor Cousin Tollemache before he loses any more of his remaining identity. If people like you don't stand up for these bastions of the British identity, who will? Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 15:49, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Aren't you still a sockpuppet [5]? You should be careful; one of my regular correspondents takes a rather dim view of them.--Major Bonkers (talk) 08:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you referring to me? Anynobody 05:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• I'm certainly not a Sockpocket, as is well known, and confirmed by Debretts, I am one of the Berkshire Bonkbusters. I can only assume Major that you have been over imbibing on the regimental port. My only wish is to be friendly and join your exclusive set, people like ourselves are an endangered species, we must unite and stick together. I have been ravaged in England by successive Labour taxes (not that I have any faith in that Cameron man either). Then there was that vulgar Mrs Blair (such an unfortunate face, always reminded me of a letter box) setting herself up in opposition to me as 1st lady of London - HM, sweet darlingest Camilla and I were not at all pleased. Then poor dear "David" banished to a Wiki-wilderness, and now I am stung by you too. It's altogether too much to endure at my time of life. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 10:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Catherine reminds me of a lady on namesline.com. - Kittybrewster ☎ 11:33, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• Ah Kitty dear, my favourite nephew. Don't even hint about Lloyds to me, the memories are still all too painful. they took the Turners, the Gainsborough and, and of greatest national importance, the Landseer of Pappa's hunting bag - and why? Because a few people elsewhere in the world suffered a few storms and setbacks. what do they know of setbacks? Then I had to suffer that Mary Archer creature coming to visit to investigate my hardships, having the audacity to say a few bare patches on the walls of the Blue Drawing Room were not a huge hardship, compared to others - presumptuous woman, I remember saying to his Late Majesty George V, if he agreed to all the ennobling of "other ranks" this is where it would all end - Lady Archer indeed - oh deepest shudder. I blame that Gordon Brown man entirely - we need strong leadership, if only dearest Winston were still with us - what would he say to all these European people, with stupid names, telling me what colour to paint the Dining Room walls, and even what to do and eat in my own Dining Room, none of their damm business, I say. No wonder our wonderful farmers are in true hardship, all this healthy eating rubbish, I suppose they want us all to eat low fat gumtrees from Timbuctoo, so they can all go awf on merry little jaunts to investigate it - and at whose expense? - yours and mine! - The country has gone soft. Catherine de Burgh (Lady) (talk) 13:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

An - no

Kb - yes

--Major Bonkers (talk) 09:01, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

Hello Major. For reasons not entirely clear (to me, at least) Werdnabot is not longer active and his owner asked for the associated pages to be deleted. However, User:MiszaBot III does the same job, and should be able to take over your archiving. This page explains how to set it up. If you have any problems with the code, let me know and I can do it for you. Rockpocket 17:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Re Being and Nothingness: political commentary?

Hi Major – when I read your references for this thread, I realised it wasn't about intellectuals drawing the heat, but that the Poles were in a land-locked political vise combining position, history and the ambitions of their traditional enemies. Topped off with Yalta betrayal by the allies as well, it was truly tragic situation for them. As this detoured from the original question just didn't want to go on about it in the thread But thank you for putting me onto that – helpful and sad at the same time. By the way you might like to vet Major Payne for your majors list. Not classy, but definitely embodied in popular culture. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 22:33, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Julia (if I may!). Thank you for your post. I'm married to a Pole, so I get a lot of earache from listening to my father-in-law's opinions and take on history; I've had to educate myself rapidly in order to be able to rebut some of the more outrageous anglophobic charges! If you can ever get hold of a copy (it's out of print, and the last time I checked was going for outrageous prices on Amazon), Czapski's book 'The Inhuman Land' is very interesting, detailing his death march by the Soviets (as the German advanced in 1941, they were quite happy to leave their matériel behind, but insisted on evacuating their prisoners), the formation of the Anders Army, and with an appendix about the atrocities perpetrated in occupied Poland. Another good book is 'Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German Occupation, 1939-1944' by Richard Lukas. Both are very readable. This is another interesting article: Polish contribution to World War II, which fills in some of the bits which I wasn't taught at school: the Poles were first to break the Enigma code, had the highest scoring squadron in the Battle of Britain, and managed to capture, blueprint, and smuggle the major parts of a V2 rocket back to Britain. Militarily, they captured Monte Cassino and closed the Falaise Gap. Yalta, the British blame on Roosevelt, although the Poles blame Churchill.

I'll certainly add Major Payne to my list and give you a mention. Thank you very much - but thank goodness I didn't spend my hard-earned on going to see it! Thank you again for dropping by.--Major Bonkers (talk) 09:33, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much for that. You've helped create another Poland-pupil. It's plain to see that history is written by not only the victors but hidebound in ulterior motives, and the real suffering is quietly lived through – or not (not lived or not quiet as per your fa-in-law). About the movie - all it really contributes is the title! Thankfully a proxy wikipedia reference to a fleeting TV advertisement was the most I spent on "seeing" it. But your list will be the richer (tongue-in-cheek) for its sweep of both high and low culture. Salut,  : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 09:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

To bomb or not to bomb?

Had an interesting debate with a relative about whether or not we should have bombed Auschwitz. Before I explain my view on this subject I feel I should say something about the holocaust overall. In the early days, when Jews were just to be deported and nobody took them, we became complacent in what came next. I seriously doubt the Nazis would have invested the time and resources in eliminating people they could otherwise ship to New York or London. Especially since in the Nazi mentality these people were ruining Germany, exporting them would've been a sort of "ethnic" warfare and a lot cheaper as well as less manpower intensive than the holocaust.

Anyway her opinion is that we should have bombed Auschwitz and any other concentration camps we could. Ignoring the impracticality of targeting any and all camps because of how many there were, I explained that doing so would have been a terrible idea for several reasons.
1) Risking the lives of our airmen to make them active participants in the holocaust would've accomplished nothing because whoever wasn't killed by bombs had nowhere to go and weren't usually in the best shape to get somewhere anyway. If we'd of bombed the trains, I'm thinking the Nazi's would've gone to plan b to get them into a camp.
2) The holocaust wasn't just evil, it was crazy and stupid too. For the latter reasons it actually kinda helped the war effort by diverting manpower, trains, etc. which could've been used to help win the war. Instead they were being used to kill either outright or through menial labor people who could've also helped the war effort. In my opinion it, the holocaust, was stopped as quickly as possible by winning the war. What do you think? Anynobody 06:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah-ha; the great Auschwitz bombing debate. My own take is that bombing of Auschwitz would have achieved nothing.

There are three books that I have come across that might be relevant. The first, and only one of these that I have actually read, is Rising '44. The Battle for Warsaw by Norman Davies (a Welshman who is actually the greatest historian of Poland; I have heard him interviewed in both languages and he speaks much better Polish than English); Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen and 'The Myth of Rescue: Why the Democracies Could Not Have Saved More Jews from the Nazis' by William Rubinstein. The allies did supply the Warsaw Uprising, and it's by analogy with those operations that I discuss what could have happened at Auschwitz.

Firstly, because of the distance involved (Auschwitz is is south-East Poland), any bombing operation would have been effectively one-way, having to go to Auschwitz and then continue East to Soviet-controlled airspace. The Russians did not operate a strategic bombing force so did not have the lengthy runways and infrastructure to support such an operation. From my own, rather casual, interest in this aspect of the war, as I understand it the British never bombed further East than Gdansk, Berlin, and Dresden; this was effectively the limit of their operations. Also any approach to Auschwitz would have been routed either through the heavily-defended Ruhr, or would have had to bypass the Ruhr, adding flying time. Krakow, approximately a half-hour car journey from Auschwitz, also hosted a German night-fighter squadron; so effectively what would have been asked of the aircrew was to fly across a heavily defended country to attack a target which had no military value; all that would have been achieved would have been the killing of Jews, which is what the Germans were trying to achieve anyway.

There was, however, an alternative, as used during the Warsaw Uprising, which was to use Liberator bombers flying from Brindisi on the heel of Italy, which could manage a 14-hour round trip, and which is what Churchill insisted was done then over objections from the RAF. Although the Liberators did manage to drop some supplies to the insurgents, the cost was horrific and, although one hates to say it, simply delayed the inevitable; really Churchill was making a political gesture at the cost of human lives (to be discussed further below).

However, suppose that the best case scenario had come to pass, which is to say a bombing of the Auschwitz fences and killing of the guards, allowing the inmates to scatter into the countryside: what would have happened then? I suggest: because Auschwitz was used as a central extermination camp for Jews from across Europe, many of these hypothetical inmates would have been foreigners, unable to speak Polish, and from towns and cities, unable to forage for themselves. Where were they to go to? Within a radius of at least 500 miles there was no friendly nation to support them (the nearest, perhaps, being Switzerland, which has a decidedly chequered history in this regard). Nor could they rely on support from the indigenous population, because the penalty for a Pole being found helping Jews was death for one's whole family.

There are various other aspects which come into play; although there is no evidence (that I've come across) that Churchill was swayed by these notions, since the 1942 battle of El Alamein removed the German threat of an invasion of Palestine, a terrorist campaign had come into being against the British, led by various Polish Jews including Menachem Begin (of Irgun) and Yitzhak Shamir (of the Stern Gang). These groups were running their own foreign policies with the Nazis, such as the ludicrous trucks plan and offer to wage war on the British. My own take on that is that I doubt the good faith of the negotiating parties. To be continued... . --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:03, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I am REALLY sorry this has sat here so long without reply; I found myself involved in several issues which absorbed much of my time here. One of which I think might interest you, but first things first.

Your point about Auschwitz being out of range is one I hadn't considered, I'd always assumed whoever advocated these attacks meant bombing it after the Allies were back in France...but of course Auschwitz predated that. (Although I will say that it doesn't seem impossible that the Soviets could've done something about it, but the thought of Stalin intervening for the Jews just made me chuckle.)

I'm happy to see we both agree that the bottom line, even in the best case scenario, would've been a complete waste of resources just to let us go from being complacent (which I'll admit we were somewhat, like I said before) to becoming participants in the Holocaust. (It does bring up the question of would bomber crews just follow orders and do the missions had they been ordered? I'd hate the stockade but it would sure beat putting my ass on the line for that. Then there's the matter of my conscience should I survive, probably making me wish I had actually died.) I'd really like to know just what these people are thinking by saying we should've bombed the camps, because they clearly either haven't thought the idea through or have incredibly positive imaginations. Either way I imagine it'd be good for a laugh, like Irgun and the Nazi's forming a real working partnership.

Anyway, in regard to one of the interesting debates I've been involved with;
Wikipedia should describe Bismarck's fate as being;
Sunk
or
Lost? Anynobody 04:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

No problem! I'm in Poland at the moment, so can't spare much time myself. Aren't I right in saying that the British Admiral involved in hunting the Bismarck didn't actually finish her off - he just left her a burning wreck and she sank later? I seem to remember that this was considered a bit infra dig at the time and he never had a sea command again. This may have been something to do with the critical fuel shortage of the British ships by the time that they finally cornered her. I remember in a television documentary the author Tom Clancy claiming the reason that the Germans never managed to shoot down any of the attacking Swordfish was that these were obsolete aircraft, and flew so slowly that the German fire-control systems were always directing shot in front of them; I've never seen this claim repeated, but it has the ring of truth about it. Her sinking was the only time that the Lutine Bell was rung in Lloyd's of London during the war. Will return to Auschwitz in due course! --Major Bonkers (talk) 18:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

A ha! You're a victim too I see, for some reason people associate the sinking with who finished her off. (Don't get me wrong, when I first read about the Bismarck I inexplicably assumed her fate was the result of one or the other, but never both.) Years later I read about USS Washington's "duel" with Kirishima in the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal. I say "duel" because the word implies combat between opponents, whereas Washington pounded Kirishima while it was trying to sink South Dakota and was oblivious to the former's presence until 16" shells started hitting. By then it was too late for the Japanese battleship, she soon found herself with wrecked steering and other significant damage making 360 degree turns. Knowing daylight would bring air attacks the captain chose to scuttle Kirishima which when one thinks about it, sounds a lot like Bismarck's situation. Like Washington the British were withdrawing from battle leaving an enemy warship which was still afloat. For different reasons of course but putting the Axis commanders in more or less the same situation. That is one where they know the enemy can and will be back, while they couldn't offer any kind of meaningful resistance. Certainly neither ship could've been taken as a prize, but valuable information would've been obtained if the enemy were to board them. Like any loyal, rational commander the Axis captains chose to save as much of their crew as possibly while denying the enemy what they could by ordering the ships to be scuttled. So understanding that Kirishima was scuttled because damage inflicted by Washington made her an easy target, seemed natural to me. The next time I read about Bismarck the new information overrode my previous opinion and made me wonder why I was so locked into one or the other but not both. An offshoot of that epiphany was realizing simply saying a ship sunk implies nothing about what sank it. The other side in the debate advocated labeling Bismarck's fate as "lost". Ignoring the fact that saying it was lost implies the owner's POV, it makes one wonder why a ship who's fate was well documented and position known should be described next to really lost ships like Cyclops or SS Cotopaxi? I never got a straight answer.

I've heard the same thing about her AA battery overestimating British aircraft from places besides Clancy, but have never bought it because I play video games. In some simulation games, aiming devices can be damaged, leaving one to improvise a bit. In Bismarck's case simply reducing lead would suffice, that is the computer says to shoot when the distance(*) between target(-) and sight(|) looks like this: |*****-
To compensate for the optimistic settings one could simply fire when it looks like this:|**-
I've read somewhere that the captain had his crew at general quarters for more or less the whole cruise after her encounter with Hood, which sounds like a believable human mistake. As a result they were probably just really tired at the same time the excellent British pilots were at their best when it mattered most.

On Auschwitz I should also clarify I'm happy to see we both agree that the bottom line... doesn't mean I'm happy we completely agree on every point, rather I'm happy to know one more person who doesn't operate on the idea of blind emotions. (In a ((ridiculously)) perfect world I'd want to do something which directly intervened in the Holocaust, but constraining myself to the fact Allied air forces didn't include B-52s, there's just no way to make any useful difference for the cost in lives.) Anynobody 05:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in replying; I'm finally back and I see that the latest iteration of the great Anglo-Irish edit war is heading over to WP:DRAMA yet again - I've arrived in the nick of time!

I'm rather against the use of the word 'lost' to describe a sunken ship, as it seems a bit euphemistic. I went to see the Johnny Cash biopic, and they used the word 'passed' for 'died'. I'm not entirely sure what 'valuable information' could have been gained by boarding the Bismarck - presumably a dangerous operation in itself - looting an Enigma machine seems a bit unlikely. --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Irish-Spanish war is more appropriate. The Anglo-Irish war seemingly ended when the majority of the English side were found to be the same person. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 17:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem on the delay, hope Poland was nice :)

People seem to have made more of Bismarck than it was, in my opinion, perhaps by focusing on what happened to Hood. (I know there are many people over there who have a soft spot for Hood, but really given what happened at Jutland to several battlecruisers it's not a big surprise Hood couldn't duel a modern battleship, Roma or Richelieu could've done the same thing.) I was reading about PQ-17, and since Dudley Pound had a brain tumor he can be forgiven for not being happy that Tirpitz was sailing to attack the convoy. If it had, and the allies didn't screw up somehow, planes from HMS Victorious could soften her up as shells from Duke of York and USS Washington eliminated the Nazi's last battleship. I suspect the Germans realized this, which possibly explains why they didn't sortie.

Anyway, though some ships are actually best termed lost; Cyclops and Munchen for example, I couldn't agree more that calling a ship who's location is known "lost" is too euphemistic for an encyclopedia :)

My last round of drama has somewhat burned me out on further involvement in drama for now, but I wish you luck on the new chapter in Irish historical drama. Anynobody 22:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Hang on - the Tirpitz was the last German battleship, surely? The story of how the British tried repeatedly to sink her, using X-craft, bouncing bombs, and eventually two earthquake bombs, is quite extraordinary. It would make a very good book. --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I look at it as the last German battleship, but a lot of people think Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were battleships. IMHO if your ship can be outgunned by a cruiser it just isn't a battleship. Don't get me wrong, the story of how Tirpitz really was sunk is indeed quite interesting. I'm just saying it'd be interesting to see what would've happened had she gone out fighting. (For as many battleships as various nations built over the years, very few actually fought another.) Anynobody 02:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Major Long

Feel free to amend/remove as you see fit, it's your userpage after all. For verifiability see The Shankill Butchers by Martin Dillon (ISBN 0415922313). Online sources are a bit sparse for some reason, it's covered in the Gaelic Wikipedia's article on them though - Búistéirí na Seanchille. Other Crown Forces used similar names, for example the UFF used Captain Black, a play on words on John White. Similarly the Major Long name apparently came about because the Butchers had been drinking in the famous "Long Bar" in the Shankill area. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Aren't Crown Forces allowed then? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 20:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

You've got me wrong; I don't hold a candle for this bunch any more than the other lot. They're both a bunch of arseholes with little to choose between them. Both groups turned their back on the option of democratic change and attempted to impose their own opinions by force. In doing so they have pretty well destroyed civil society in Northern Ireland, and created vast divisons which set back both agendas by generations. My sympathies are with the broad mass of people caught in the middle. The best option would be to herd the bigots of both side into Wembley Stadium and let them fight it out between themselves, out of sight and out of mind of the rest of us. I don't believe that 'Major Long' ever held a commission from the Crown, by the way. --Major Bonkers (talk) 21:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

union

How does one get the Union behind the WP globe as you have? --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Add this code at the very top of the page that you want to prettify: <span style="position:absolute;top:-29px;left:-180px;z-index:100">[[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom (3-5).svg|180px]]</span>.

Note to anyone else: it's easy enough to alter the image to your own flag of choice, should you wish.

C-r: you'll be delighted to know that this image is the 'war flag', which is a slightly squashed version of the Union flag; it works slightly better than the properly proportioned Union flag. And, having survived the ArbCom, it seems quite appropriate!--Major Bonkers (talk) 20:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I tried to put in the Ulster Banner (haha) but it doesn't look very good. God, that would've been funny. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You would probably need to fiddle with the figure shown as 29 in the above code; that determines how high the flag is in relation to the Wikipedia globe - it's easy enough to play around with it and arrive at something acceptable by trial and error.--Major Bonkers (talk) 17:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

My bad temper struck when I got pissed off at Mark "I'm clearly dead and everyone knows it" Speight being removed from the Deaths list. I'll have a look, thanks! --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:12, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, he's certainly dead now: [6]. --Major Bonkers (talk) 10:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

no, no. Wikipedia wants testimony from his parents and a photocopy of his death cert. Photographs postmortem are highly desirable also. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you discovered the Humanities Reference Desk (or: WP:RD/H)? It's run by a girl called Clio the Muse and it's a haven of good manners. It's much more fun and entertaining than having one's content butchered.--Major Bonkers (talk) 10:22, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I imagine I'm too banal and repetitive for all that. Haha. I'll have a look-in, surprisingly busy at the moment though. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 10:53, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems to have been resolved now, 24 hours after every other media outlet. Perhaps he'll surprise us and suddenly reappear. --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:25, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hope not! See new user page! Counter-revolutionary (talk) 12:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm. Very... restrained. Have you noticed that the Vintagekits discussion has reappeared on the current page of WP:AN/I? Yawn. --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Restrained in what way? It may be down to my being inept with computers. Counter-revolutionary (talk) 13:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello Major

Your name always reminds me of Fawlty Towers. Is there a big disagreement on your page again? It always looks more exciting than mine. Anyway I have a friend who is new to this place and I suggested he could drop by here for advice on 'difficult situations'. He is User:Lawrence_Solomon who is a very important journalist. Best, West one girl (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think there's a great disagreement here - at least, I hope not. I just have my devoted band of admirers who regularly contribute here and, as you can tell from my User name, this page attracts all sorts - from the mildly eccentric to the howlingly insane!

Ah, yes, I remember the Major; I'll get round to adding him to my list and giving you a credit in due course. There was one exchange which could be my motto here:

The Major (reading a newspaper and shaking his head): 'Strikes again, Fawlty. I don't know why we bother?

Basil Fawlty (sotto voce): 'Didn't know you did!'

I see your friend seems to have started off on the wrong foot; I'll drop by later this afternoon.

You might be interested, being a journalist and all, in my recent trip from the Hook of Holland to Warsaw and back again. This is an 11-hour drive, and I've become a bit of an expert on European motorway service stations. You can imagine my horror on discovering Dutch and German magazines, prominently displayed amongst the eye-popping pornography, with our own dear Jeremy Clarkson on the cover (fortunately raving on about cars rather than indulging in any physical activity). Even in Poland, I came across a collected edition of his newspaper articles translated into Polish, and I began to feel as though I was being stalked by the man. However, the conclusion I draw from this is that, if the presidency of Europe were not to be allocated on the basis of a soviet democracy but on the basis of a plebiscite, Jeremy Clarkson would stand a far better chance of being elected President than Tony Blair. And would that be a bad thing? An end to speed cameras, an increase in speed limits, and an emphasis regarding police time away from the soft target of motorists. Ah... only in a perfect world!

I'm sorry that there seems to be something wrong with the archive that I set up for you; you'll have to cut and paste what you want to go in, rather than it doing it automatically for you, I'm afraid. I might have another bash when time permits. --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I laughed with pain at your description of Clarkson. I shall certainly vote for himWest one girl (talk) 17:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, he's a funny fellow (both peculiar and ha-ha). I like to imagine that he isn't quite as self-consciously prole-ly as he makes out:

SCENE: A beautiful Palladian country house, with acres of lawn, cedar trees, and birds twittering. Suddenly, up the drive roars an enormous and expensive car, scattering gravel as it skids sideways to a handbreak stop. The engine is turned off, the car door opens, and out steps JC.

JC: Wow! That was as exciting as putting my John Thomas [comedic/ dramatic pause] in a crocodile's gob!

JC strolls towards the house muttering to himself. No, not offensive enough... bloody metaphors. The front door opens as he climbs the steps; a man-servant holds a silver tray and a cut-glass tumbler of whisky.

JC: Ah, my chunda-peg! Now that's as welcome as a -

shrill voice from inside: Is that you Jeremy? What have I told you about those bloody metaphors? Not - in - the - house!

JC takes the tumbler. Mutters Bloody women! under his breath. He downs the whisky in one, breathes out heavily, plonks the tumbler back on the tray. He goes into a small cloakroom; the man-servant sets the tray down on a nearby butler's table and retrieves a heavy silk brocade dressing gown which he folds over his elbow. Meanwhile, JC has disappeared behind a beautiful eighteenth century Chinese screen. We see a bubble-perm wig being removed and handed to the man-servant, who places it carefully on a wig stand. Next comes JC's leather wind-cheater, which the man-servant accepts with a frisson of horror. All this time JC is talking to himself:

JC: ...in a mangle! [pause] ...in a fish bowl... full of piranhas! [pause] ...in a hamburger bun... with gerkins! [the man-servant winces, unseen by JC] ...in the carburettor of a Porsche 911 racing Zagato!

Man-servant: (murmuring) The perfect fusion of man and machine, sir.

All this time, almost imperceptibly, JC's accent has subtly shifted from bloke-ish up the social register until he sounds like a cross between Brian Sewell and a marquis. The jeans are thrown over the top of the screen.

JC: Don't forget to add the small stain of engine oil.

Man-servant: Very good, sir. Would that be the Castrol or the Mobil?

JC: Oh, I think we'd better use some supermarket own brand, don't you Carruthers? Don't want them thinking I'm getting above myself.

Man-servant: Very good sir.

JC steps out from behind the screen, dressed in evening slippers with a silk bow, evening trousers and red braces, dress shirt with studs and cuff-links, and cravat. The man-servant holds the dressing gown, which JC shrugs on. We realise that he has completely changed from oikish yob wearing ugly shapeless clothes into a dapper, beautifully-dressed middle-aged man with a short-back-and-sides. JC wanders out of the room and off down the marble-floored hall, whilst the man-servant gathers the discarded clothes for laundry. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I see

Thanks for the tip off. I think the comments speak for themselves. --Gibnews (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. I can't help noticing that both your subsequent main critics typically express themselves in ruder terms; see this related discussion a propos allegations of 'trolling'. It's always someone else!

By the way, for what it's worth, I think your comments were unwise (and no more), not because they were 'racist' (the great trump card that can be played to silence any argument) but because a reference in those terms leaves open the opportunity for this sort of palaver.

My own belief is that Admins should crack down with a zero tolerance policy (something that John and Rockpocket advocate). At the moment a certain level of rudeness is, or seems to be, considered acceptable and drones along like a background noise; it poisons the atmosphere and reduces what should be a fun past-time and collegiate activity into a hugely wasteful diversion of labour playing amateur politics. --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:23, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I would agree on all those points, thank you for your patience and assistance in trying to make the article factual rather than POV. --Gibnews (talk) 08:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, thinking about it further, I can't help thinking that the argument about whether the European Court of Human Rights can (let alone the question of whether they did) over-rule the Gibraltar coroner is a complete red-herring. It might matter if Mairéad Farrell had been a lawyer or somehow established this legal principle, but that's not the case. For the sake of the Wikipedia article, I think it's best to try to ignore this question and simply report the judgment of both the inquest and the ECHR, being careful to WP:VERIFY everything back to those two documents. The ECHR judgment, at least, is on the web, so it's very easy.

I'm afraid that I have a self-denying ordinance on editing 'Irish articles', and I don't intend to edit this article, so I'll limit myself to the various Talk pages. You might, however, like to do some work on the 'Media comment' section which, because quotation marks have not been used, is a straight lift from the cited source and, misleadingly, does not refer to Death on the Rock but to 'the Frontline documentary, Death of a Terrorist'. --Major Bonkers (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Reposted from One Night In Hackney's Talk page:

==Mairéad Farrell==

Hello. I wonder if we can't have another bash at this.

I think that the fundamental problem is that the term 'unlawful killing' has a specific legal meaning - see the WP article. This, I think, is where some of the dispute may be arising.

It is clear that the inquest found the killings lawful; the European Court, per what I posted on the Talk page, found this:

[Item] 213. [...] the Court is not persuaded that the killing of the three terrorists constituted the use of force which was no more than absolutely necessary in defence of persons from unlawful violence within the meaning of Article 2 para. 2 (a) (art. 2-2-a) of the Convention.

The European Court never went further than this, rather disguised, finding of 'unlawful violence', which it considered a breach of Article 2(2)(a) of the convention.

In short: the finding of 'unlawful violence' does not equate, legally, to a finding of 'unlawful killing'.

It's worth pointing out that this was the only element of the case that succeeded, and that on the smallest of majorities (10 to 9). This finding was anyway academic; because McCann, et al. had been up to no good at the time of their deaths, the Court refused any remedy for the breach of their Article 2 'Right to Life' (ie. the British government did not have to pay any damages to their families).

There is a conflict over the actual judgment and how it was reported in the news media. In my own opinion, it would be possible to add a section on 'Media response to the judgment', or somesuch. We should recognise that the media were using an element of hyperbole and grossly simplifying a complex legal argument but it is obviously fair to say that the judgment was reported, in layman's terms, as an 'unlawful killing'. Might this be a sensible compromise and way to proceed? --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

ONIH, seemd to tell me that he didn't retire because of that article Mairead Farrell. I had figured he left, because he wanted her described as being 'unlawfully killed'. I said at his article all this fuss over the killing of a terrorist (which I meant for all involved editors) & he lost his cool. I guess my words were badly chosen. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, in the absence of any other explanation I draw my own conclusions (and have a look at the edit summaries); it's a storm in a teacup - a minor issue in a minor article. If he wants to behave like Achilles in his tent over the matter, that's his perogative, but I can't see it doing anyone, most importantly himself, any good. I think that you're probably flogging a dead horse by continuing to post on his Talk page; to the extent that its considered provocative, I'd encourage you both not to do so and to remove what you have posted there; I recognise, for what it's worth, that you have behaved quite properly and the level of abuse directed at you is unwarranted and unpleasant, but frankly you're not doing anything but winding each other up. Walk away from it and move on would be my advice.

You can always post here - I welcome everybody! --Major Bonkers (talk) 17:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll leave my postings at his article; giving him a chance to respond to them or delete them (whatever he chooses). Plus, I'll follow your advice & break off further contact with him. GoodDay (talk) 17:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I've deleted my postings from his personal page. Best to move on. GoodDay (talk) 15:43, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Sorry

Don't know how that happened! One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 05:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Insomnia? --Major Bonkers (talk) 05:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

PS - thank you for your courtesy in posting that. --Major Bonkers (talk) 14:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

You will have to be a bit quick to get this

[7]. Tarantara tarantara. - Kittybrewster ☎ 12:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Why, you've found them! There must be some sort of reward in it for you. Might you have come across various other missing articles: a reputation for economic competence, the phrase, 'An end to boom and bust', and some £50 £100 billion which seems to have vanished from the Bank of England in order to support some Geordies' mortgages? --Major Bonkers (talk) 12:57, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

From yesterday's 'Tabloidgraph': The Prime Minister claimed that far from losing out, people should realise they were "living under the most generous Labour government that there has ever been".--Major Bonkers (talk) 09:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Champagne

Had any recently? --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 11:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Enough of the champagne comments already. It's not particularly pleasant to hear any side in this ludicrous "battle" uttering it - Alison ^❤ 05:35, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually I did have a glass of champagne yesterday, but only because a great friend of mine has got a new job teaching the Germans how to speak English. That seems to me to be as pointless as Paul Burrell's job of teaching the Americans how to eat with a knife and fork; in my experience, Helmut and Fritz speak better English than the natives (vide John Prescott). Like you, Counter-revolutionary, I shall certainly raise a glass of my usual tipple (Żywiec Porter) to the fact that a prolific contributor has decided not to retire, and I trust that we can now all concentrate on adding content rather than being diverted into other unproductive activities and telling each other to 'Fuck Off'! --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the problem with Wikipedia is everyone's so goddam melodramatic. One says one's going to retire, one hopefully gets an ego trip with lots of people saying things they don't really mean ("We'll miss you", etc.), then one returns. It's all a bit predictable really. --Counter-revolutionary (talk) 12:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

it is sad, isn't it. Looks like it will be Cava or British sherry for you - awhile longer. Giano (talk) 12:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with Cava, which is generally better, and certainly better value, than its French counterpart which trades on its reputation. I don't drink British sherry, (or 'Cherie' as I pronounce it, in honour of the consort of our previous Head of State ^{yes I know he wasn't, but he thought he was}, Prince of Peace, and all round 'pretty straight kinda guy'), just as I don't drink any whisky which a red deer hasn't had the opportunity to pee in at some stage. Is there some point to this discussion or can we wrap it up now? And Giano, you ought to read the final post in this discussion. --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That was most kind - a small token of my appreciation. Giano (talk) 14:50, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Funny you should mention that, I was only asking someone yesterday if they knew how to redress that problem - they didn't. I don't touch fiddly things like that, not since the unfortunate experience Mrs G's spaniel had after I re-wired the christmas tree lights. Perhaps you couls have a fiddle for me. I'm told there s a way of making the orb bounce, but that may be too much after the second bottle of chianti. I can't agree with you about the cava, I always say one can't beat a a bottle of old Widow Clickot's best myself. Anyway if you would like to fiddle, and save me the expense of an electrician that would be kind. Giano (talk) 14:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I'll sort it out for you. The page with the bouncing Wikipedia globe is here: Wikipedia:User Page Design Center/Decor. You might recognise an old friend on that page. --Major Bonkers (talk) 14:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Oooh, what a (welcome) surprise! Thank you very much! Everyone is invited to share it and then let's all go our separate ways and add some constructive content! --Major Bonkers (talk) 15:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

What's the ocassion? What's everybody celebrating? GoodDay (talk) 17:04, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ostensibly it's a reward for this edit, in which I sorted out Giano's flag, but perhaps - could it possibly be? - it might be a rather clever reference back to the original subject of the correspondence. Giano resolving and damping down conflict?! Unbelievable! --Major Bonkers (talk) 20:55, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Major, you have been over-imbibing on the elderflower wine, and it's playing havoc with your imagination, Horlicks and bed - I think. Giano (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the Major's engine runs on higher octane fuel than elderflower and Horlicks, Giano. Some things must never change: your bovver boots and knuckle-dusters should not be exchanged for a pipe and slippers! --Major Bonkers (talk) 08:47, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You might be surprised Major if you ever saw my "bovver boots and knuckle-dusters" - you might even find yourself saluting them. Giano (talk) 09:10, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

You've made the news.....

Here: Hide your name on Wiked-pedia.

A follow up to this. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 20:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, Oh dear. Thank you for the link. I suppose that I can expect a friendly visit from Guy or some other fidei defensor. Just as well Mr. Solomon hasn't come across WP:AN/I yet! I wonder if I can interest him in editing Mairéad Farrell? (Still, it's not all bad - I'm described as 'a senior Wikipedian', which is now WP:VERIFY-able; none of you other peons have an honour like that!) --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:24, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Other pages Mr. Solomon shouldn't see

A list of the worst pages on Wikipedia (feel free to add your own):

• WP:AN/I. Great God - welcome to the snake-pit! Warning: children at play.
• Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/JzG2. Some things are beyond parody; Jimbo Wales invited Guy onto a steering committee to improve standards of civility on Wikipedia? That's what it says here... . I'm waiting for Giano to discover this page. --Major Bonkers (talk) 21:09, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Giano saw it ages ago - too tedious for words, other fish to fry! Giano (talk) 21:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

• Wikipedia Review. For when Wikipedia politics become too tame. We'll all end up there, I expect, in due course. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Major

Thank you for all your help and glad you got in the news, you senior person, officially so. Here is a present from Swinging London as a little thank you. PS every time I come here it seems as though there is some kind of sedition going on, although you deny it. PPS Your Clarkson thing was very clever - was that by you ? Best West one girl (talk) 20:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC) The bit with the spaniels sounded dangerous. West one girl (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Ha-ha! Very Balham: Gateway to the South! Seditious, moi ? Certainly not - it's that naughty Giano. Actually, I have noticed a bit more lively activity on this page since I got back from Poland, God knows why; I expect everything will calm back down sooner or later. I have to put my hand up to Jeremy Clarkson - thank you for your kind comment - but (how can I put this?) a 'John Thomas' is not a spaniel. I've given you a mention on my User page as well! --Major Bonkers (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

No I did realise JC did not mean to put his spaniel in a crocodile's mouth but let's go no further (actually that was the best line, very Clarkson). I was referring to Giano's spaniels and the Christmas tree. Thank you for mentioning me on your user page. I didn't realise the Major had a name, fancy that. Meanwhile I am really going to write the article on the Kings Road the current one is complete rubbish. And I am going to put Clarkson on my user page. West one girl (talk) 11:22, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, the penny drops! --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Major, my Major!

We may not always agree but I welcome your informed and interesting contributions to the Humanities Desk. Please keep coming back! Clio the Muse (talk) 22:25, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, thank you very much! I think that we probably agree on the main things - a visceral hatred of contemporary British politicians and Melvyn-bloody-Bragg, and a shared love of beaver sausages. Isn't it funny how hardly anybody ever says 'thank you' after getting a response? The ability to get almost any question answered there is quite extraordinary.

By the way, when I was at school, we used to have a rather heavily chaperoned 'dance' with the young hotties from Wycombe Abbey. I'm afraid that this sort of thing only appealed to idle people who didn't use the library as much as I did; had I taken an interest, perhaps we might have crossed paths.

My internet connection has been playing up today; normal levels of abuse and fatuous comment to be resumed shortly. My fearful voyage is not quite done... . --Major Bonkers (talk) 21:28, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes; you are an old Harrovian. What a randy shower of beaver-eating little bastards they were! Clio the Muse (talk) 22:13, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I probably shouldn't tell you, but the 'dance' was colloquially known as 'the cattle market' amongst my contemporaries. As for being a 'randy shower' of beaver-eating little bastards, I prefer to think of us as 'lusty young bollocks'! When are you going to write that article, by the way?! --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:08, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but who were the cattle, and who the drovers?! That article? Who knows? Maybe soon, but only as part of a wider appreciation of Rochester's deliciously naughty poems! Before I forget, I hope you had a happy St. George's day!  !

England

Thank you very much. --Major Bonkers (talk) 07:41, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ever heard of David Irving?

(I'm pretty sure you have.) For some reason we seem to be listing his current occupation as a military historian, while every source I've seen says he should at best be called a revisionist military historian. If you have the time and inclination please stop by Talk:David Irving#Occupation and give an opinion :) Anynobody 08:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment. He does not deny the holocaust - merely the scale of it. But that (silly) denial is undoubtedly what he is best known for. - Kittybrewster ☎ 09:20, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, the trouble is that he obviously has his own agenda which is, frankly, pro-Nazi and aimed at denigrating the allied war effort. There's obviously room for that, and arguments to made to that effect, as, for example, Gordon Corrigan does; but the effect of somebody who comes to such controversial subjects with such an obvious agenda is slightly alarming. Having said that, he has obviously been the target of Jewish historians who have attempted to - in various degrees - argue with him or shout him down; the experience of the great Norman Davies, who had the temerity to point out that Jews committed massacres in wartime Poland and consequently became the victim of a witch-hunt, is instructive. He also seems to have a strong streak of mischief-making in his character. Will have a look in due course. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Kittybrewster I agree that calling him a Holocaust denier implies he denies the whole thing, and as such is on its face inaccurate. However I can accept this because he seems to think Hitler had nothing to do with it because nothing on paper saying so has been found, which is ridiculous for several reasons. (Guess he never read Mein Kampf or ever thought about the Nazis burning implicating documents like they did his corpse.) IMHO He denies the Holocaust and replaces parts that can be proven with some kind of conspiracy of Hitler's underlings that he was unaware of to take handle the problems outlined in Mein Kampf thus either making Hitler a moron or the Holocaust an eventual surprise to be revealed to him as a birthday present).

Major, I don't mean to imply the Allies were above critique or anything like that; this guy is just an idiot who refuses to accept that his view is for the deniers despite being told in court as well as real historians. Anynobody 00:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

David Irving
File:DI at PRO 180303 500lo res.jpg At The National Archives, 2003
Born	David John Cawdell Irving (1938-03-24) March 24, 1938 Essex, England
Nationality	British
Occupation	World War II military history[Citation needed]
Known for	Holocaust denial
Website	http://www.fpp.co.uk

Actually, having had a look, I find myself in agreement with both of you (Anynobody and J Readings), as well as Kittybrewster's point. Dealing with his point first, the phrase 'holocaust denial' is so loaded - it can have a variety of implied meanings, ranging from 'anti-semitic nut-case' to someone who does not accept the orthodox terms of debate - as to make it almost meaningless. It's also a term that seems to be used, like labeling your opponent a racist, to close down any argument.

I wonder if the present arrangement (copied to the right) isn't, more or less, as good as it's going to get? I think that I'm right in saying, too, that he's never actually discussed the issue in his published books; therefore it might be right to try to draw a distinction between his military history activities and his beliefs regarding the holocaust. I see from the article that he has now apparently recanted his previous beliefs, so perhaps it should be 'former holocaust denier'?

Regarding the Germanic nations, oddly enough, in my travels across Europe, I've found the Germans to be one of the nicest lot of people, although there's still a profound (and concealed) dislike of them for their wartime activities in countries such as Denmark - see the funny looks you get when you say 'Danke shoene' instead of 'Tak'! The Swiss are profoundly boring and live in what I would consider a perfect fascist state - how I longed to get a spray can and add some graffiti! - and God! what an ugly lot they are! and the Austrians, by and large, still have some unpleasantly unreconstructed views and barely concealed racism. These are just general observations, of course; I try to take people as I find them. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

PS: Anynobody - regarding your last sentence; I hope that we know each other, if only anonymously, well enough not to have to cover our backs. I agree with you that the man's views are self-evidently unpleasant. Oddly enough, I suspect that he's formidably intelligent and probably, in a social setting, very good company. --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Bonkers, I love you and I want to have your babies!

I had the same reaction to Switzerland, the desire to bring some disorder to the place to make it seem at least partly human, and I too was tempted to take up graffiti. Maybe we can bring our spraycans on honeymoon ... --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel I should address your last point first, ...regarding your last sentence; I hope that we know each other, We totally do, at least as well as two people divided by the "same" language anyway ;) The phrasing of that part was actually what I toiled over, not because I figured you misunderstood me but rather my concern with being misunderstood by the nice folks here who may be unaware of our past chats. I was originally gonna say "don't get me wrong folks..." but for some reason thought it was ignoring your point. I shouldn't have second guessed my first choice, d'oh!

I'll keep on going backward in replying :) I suspect that he's formidably intelligent and probably, in a social setting, very good company. I agree, with a catch; I imagine conversing intelligently with him, in depth about some aspect of WW II and enjoying it immensely until he says something stupefying like Hitler not knowing about it until 1943. Then the "how can someone so smart be such a dumb ass?" questions start coming up in my mind.

That, what to actually put in the box, is a problem I have too but here's why I can't seem to just leave it as is. Irving has been discredited as pro-Nazi and a Holocaust denier (pro Nazi in making out Dresden to be worse than it was, etc.) Source after source I've found no longer regard him as the historian he once was. Meaning if someone were to place a {{fact}} tag on him being just a plain historian in the infobox, we couldn't actually provide a current citation. On the other hand, what to call him? Nazi sympathetic historian...I dunno. Anynobody 07:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha, BHG! I'm afraid that my dear wife has already beaten you to it! I was thinking, actually, that I could make up a User box for myself, with 'BHG wants to have my babies' and decorated with a picture of something appropriate (an enormous willy, perhaps), but perhaps that might be going a little too far!

Oddly enough, this chap produced a map showing the distribution of pretty girls across Europe, and diagnosed a belt of ugly women running across the low countries, over the North Sea, and across East Anglia. On that basis, therefore, it's a subject for proper scientific inquiry, and I would diagnose a similar 'low attractiveness zone' directly over Switzerland and southern Sweden (that's what living under eternal socialism does to you - makes you look miserable all the time ). The slavs (including the Czechs) tend to have very pretty girls; all my Polish in-law relations, when they come to London, take great pleasure in laughing at the badly-dressed and unfashionable girls walking on the streets; it's like a trip to the zoo for them! (I tend to do the same when I visit Southend-on-Sea.)

When I was previously in Lugano, I went to the Swiss Customs Museum - you see what I mean about it being boring! - and they had photographs there of the passports belonging to German Jews in the 1930s, which were prominently marked with a great big red 'J' on the title page - put there by the Swiss - so that the Germans could identify who was taking money to Switzerland. Later, there were photographs of German officers at the end of the war entering Switzerland as refugees. It was all a bit ho-hum for me; the priorities were badly wrong and not much sign that anyone recognised the fact.

During the course of my visit there was also a rather horrific 'ripper' murder of a prostitute (nothing to do with me) and I got the impression, rightly or wrongly, that, Twin Peaks-like, still waters run deep.

Anynobody: Yes, I know; some people jump to offense, when really we're trapped by the difficulty of written text to convey emotion; humour or 'what do you think of this', in particular. I think that we're probably singing from the same hymn sheet as regards DI.

I just wonder whether this might not be one of those instances where it would be best to be absolutely neutral and let him condemn himself out of his own mouth, a bit like Errol Morris's documentary? I think that, despite the interest in his early work, as he has moved ever rightwards so he has become increasingly discredited as an historian, to such an extent that nowadays he's regarded as being on the lunatic fringe. Ages ago, when I was reading law, the libel action relating to his book on convoy PQ-17 was still taught, 25 years after the fact, as the highest libel damages ever awarded in an English Court (which, in real terms, it probably still is).

I'll have another think about it and see if there isn't some magic formula that can be applied. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

Hi, Major Bonkers. :-) I was reading through a discussion and noticed one of your posts. Making negative comments about other users outside of the dispute resolution process is not helpful. On a volunteer project like Wikipedia, where collaboration is essential, when users speak ill other volunteers it makes working together extremely difficult. Dwelling on the negative aspect of Wikipedia makes volunteering here much less enjoyable for every one. Using a friendlier approach will bring much better results, truly. ;-) Take care, FloNight♥♥♥ 12:32, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

... And User:FloNight really is a senior wikipedian! - Kittybrewster ☎ 12:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks for both of yours. I'm not sure that they're really negative; the comments were intended in a slightly more humourous vein than, I think, you give credit for. If anyone takes offense, I, of course, apologise. Presumably the remark about Giano 'tilting at windmills' caught your eye? He posts here regularly enough and though we disagree about almost everything we have, I hope, a cordial enough relationship! --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

While the comment taken alone might not seem like a big deal, seeing yourself discussed over and over can be a bit much to take. Users get weary of it. It is best to stay focused on discussing content and not other editors. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

File:Canape Sertanejo.JPG

I can do better than humble pie, but be careful not to choke. Giano (talk) 18:23, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, point taken. Thank you for the pleasant way in which you have raised your concerns. I'll eat some humble pie to go with his champagne! --Major Bonkers (talk) 16:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha! I'll have an entire meal out of you before too long! Best wishes, Don Quixote! --Major Bonkers (talk) 19:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Things will be fine

As long as we both hang on! (And God bless dear Boris!) Clio the Muse (talk) 02:04, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

As at 9 o'clock this morning, the Polish media was reporting that Boris had already won. Yes, hang on, hang on... that's what I keep telling myself! --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:30, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

ANI

Hi Major, your recent edits to ANI appear to have deleted large swathes of the page (accidentally I presume). They have been reverted, so you might wish to try again. Rockpocket 10:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear! Very sorry (hangs head in shame). Didn't mean to do it. On the other hand, there's far too much drama there already, so removing a bit is probably a good idea! I'll have another go and be more careful this time. (When are we going to see your holiday snaps?) --Major Bonkers (talk) 16:28, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Funny, that

G'day to you, Major. I gotta tell you this because I'm feeling a bit guilty about it. You are just about the funniest bloke in this place—if I need cheering up I just troll trawl through your user contributions and instantly feel better. Keep up the Bonkerisms. Best Regards. - Bill Reid | Talk 11:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL. As they say in my neck of the woods: lang may your lum reek (translation:long may smoke emanate from your chimney. All the best, -Bill Reid | Talk 08:17, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Vintagekits

Thanks for the comment, I have already commented. Hopefully this time VK will stay away from those things that tempt him. IN a caring fuzzy way I do hope he can make a good go of it....in my own little selfish way just as long as he stays away from some of the more...aggressive...editing he has performed on the Falkland articles in the past, it won't affect me further. Oh, and it is nice to see someone else who thinks Schama is about as gripping as womens field hockey :) Narson (talk) 15:06, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is more the dullness combined with the rampant revisionism that irritates me about Schama. History is fascinating enough without forcing out new ham brained viewpoints so you can get a new series. As for falklands, I think I remember that section about the Americans and taking the islands, can't recall what happened to it though. Pity, I like the quirky stuff.

As for vintage, well, yeah, the history of trouble does make me think that, despite my hopes, this will end up in a farce, but it has to be tried. If it doesn't work we have lost nothing really, a bit of time, but are unlikely to deal with any more calls for him to return. If it does work out, we gain a good editor back. Narson (talk) 10:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

PS: Looks like Justin went through and restored your edit to the Falklands War article. Narson (talk) 11:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry - just noticed your PS, and I'm confined to quarters at the moment, so I have to reply here; I didn't really mean my - very small - moan about my edit being removed to be taken seriously; it's part and parcel of what we have to expect on a project like this. Still, I'm very grateful to Justin for taking the trouble to hunt it down and add it back in - what a kind and thoughtful gesture - please pass my thanks on. --Major Bonkers (talk) 17:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I let him know. Sorry to see you ran afoul of the banstick. Narson (talk) 22:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Part of life's rich pageant, I'm afraid! --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:07, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Blocked!

Sorry about that. You went well over 3RR on Lauder's user page, and you were being POINTy - Alison ^❤ 22:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, Alison, I went to your page and noted that you were offline, so I posted on Rockpocket's page. If you want to support tag-team trolling that's a matter for you. --Major Bonkers (talk) 22:15, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, both sides were out of order on this one. I've gone ahead and fully protected the page and right now, it's blank so nobody "wins" on this one. I'll go ahead and unblock ... - Alison ^❤ 22:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I really think that your edit summary is right: 'We're not here to rub his nose in it'. Best wishes, --Major Bonkers (talk) 22:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about all the trouble, Bonkers. I know you mean well on this one and want to see Lauder gets a good shake of the same stick someone else got. BTW - the two tag-teamers have also been warned - Alison ^❤ 22:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough; thank you very much for your consideration. Actually, I blame you for not switching the 'Offline' tag on your User page to 'Online', else I'd have alerted you immediately! Yours, --Major Bonkers (talk) 10:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

It's actually broken and I don't know how to fix it :( - Alison ^❤ 17:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

SOS

So, uh, how come you didn't request reinforcements before engaging in an edit war? Didn't you learn anything from the Cruiser's teachings; I'm not leaving my wingman!. Anynobody 03:49, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah yes: Major Maverick - it has a ring about it! But there's enough unpleasantness around without dragging yet more people into it. If you don't like another User, just stay away from them; what's so difficult about that? --Major Bonkers (talk) 10:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm confined here for the moment; do you notice how your American pilots have macho nick-names - there's a list of them on the Top Gun page - while we Englanders get along with the more mundane Biggles, Algy, and Ginger? Personally, I'd be very worried if someone came up and introduced himself as 'Wolfman', 'Cougar', or the rest of it. How are you supposed to respond if someone says, 'Hi, I'm Iceman'? I'd be terrified - my first thought would be that he's either certifiably insane or a screaming homosexual - either way, I'd run a mile. --Major Bonkers (talk) 17:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is out of chronological order. Participation is welcome by anyone wishing to comment. This box is simply for organization.

---

It's funny you should mention that, believe it or not there are a lot of mundane callsigns on American nametags. (Check out the credits of the aforementioned movie next time you get a chance, they list all the aviator's callsigns who advised on the film. Too bad the producers didn't listen to them because the movie is laughable in its accuracy.) I personally know a former USAF pilot who's callsign was a variation of his last name, which when younger I thought to be pretty lame in light of "Maverick" or "Iceman", but with age have come to appreciate its unique quality. (Also I dunno about Navy/marine pilots but AF pilots tend to refer to each other by name on the ground.)

For a laugh from another perspective, imagine the same scenario, somebody introducing themselves as "Wolfman", but wearing a flightsuit with name-tag - and "you" still running away in panic. (I imagine some bystander going, "What's his problem?" and someone replying "He's terrified of the word 'Wolfman'.") Anynobody 07:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

PS Beware of people with the nickname Iceman in regular clothes. Anynobody 08:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Phew! I'll put it down to Hollywood hyperbole, then. In the British equivalents, Michael Caine's character in Battle of Britain (film) is called 'Rabbit leader' (he doesn't last long) and in The Dam Busters (film), it's the aeroplanes that have call-signs: 'O for Orange', 'S for Sugar', and so on. Have you seen these interesting aviation stories in the press this week: Rocket man flies to 8,200ft and World's smallest helicopter takes off? As for your PS, have you noticed that Kuklinski was 'also known as the cruiser'?! --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes, I'm familiar with the British phonetic used by the RAF, like J for Jack. (A great example of real US Naval aviation callsigns (both personal and assigned) can be found in both Gulf of Sidra incidents, 1981 and 1989, interestingly both engagements involved aircraft with swing wings.)

I didn't notice "The Iceman's" other cruisian nickname, sweet jesus, it's like Tom Cruise is some kind of personality black hole who's gravity invades all aspects of our lives. Is our Cruiser some kind of superman? Anynobody 23:50, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha! I see that we've both edited Operation Chastise, then (yours is a bit more impressive)! I'm told that the squadron adopted the politically incorrect code word as a squadron call-sign, until, some 30 or 40 years later, someone decided that times had changed. Calling your dog 'Nigger' nowadays - can you imagine?! --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

PS: An unexpected edit here. --Major Bonkers (talk) 14:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I never saw the full movie but thanks to Pink Floyd I did see a part where a couple of men were giving Nigger some attention during The Wall (film) and was kinda taken aback like the rest of those watching at the time. Another friend and I said exactly that, "times had changed" and things were different (actually I don't think the name was meant to imply anything negative about anyone, not like a black colored dog owned by a KKK wizard with the same name at least.) Thanks to NATO though we now don't have the problem of awkward spell letters.

Indeed that was quite unexpected, but reaffirms my understanding of how consistency is defined here:

Consistency

Unreliability or randomness of successive results or events.

Anynobody 23:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Out of chronological order discussion thread ends here.

Could you post your block message so I can lift your autoblock? Thanks. ~Eliz81^(C) 18:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi Bonk! You blocked for 3RR - thought you'd have more sense by now! Anyway, you are taking it rather better than I would, that's for sure. What is the situation with D. Lauder - anything I can do to help? Sarah777 (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha! Thank you, Sarah! I look at it like this: a block is nature's way of telling you that you're taking WP too seriously. I'm not sure that there is anything that you can do regarding DL; his page is protected and it's all a matter for the ArbCom. I should warn you that he is, so far as I can work out, an ardent monarchist, so you'd have plenty to talk about! --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Come on Major - you know I don't hold with blocking folk who hold daft views - I'd rather argue with them! Sarah777 (talk) 14:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, you can't even do that (at least not on his page). Poland, of course, is a republic, and I take great glee in telling my wife that that's a cause of many of their problems and offering them some of our 'minor Royals' - I'd volunteer myself, but modesty forbids; Queen Fergie the First would have a nice ring about it and solve two problems at once! --Major Bonkers (talk) 18:23, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure your wife pays you no heed - and anyway, don't the Poles have a problem with Queens??? Sarah777 (talk) 22:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Queens, Sarah, Pooters! Actually Sarah, sometimes I think that if you and I were given a free hand, between us we'd sort 'the Troubles' (at least on Wikipedia) out in a morning. And Ireland could probably do with a monarch, too - you fancy the job?! --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you still autoblocked, Major? If so, we can sort that out:

Clearing an autoblock

Due to the nature of the block applied, we need additional information before we can decide whether to unblock you. It is very likely that you are not personally blocked. If you are prevented from editing, it may be because you are autoblocked or blocked because of your IP address. Without further details, there is nothing further we can do to review or lift your block. Please follow these instructions:

1. If you have a Wikipedia account, please ensure that you are logged in.

   Your account name will be visible in the top right of this page if you are.

   If it isn't, try bypassing your web browser's cache.

2. Try to edit the Sandbox.

   If you are able to edit the sandbox, you are not blocked from editing. Either the autoblock on your IP address has already expired, or you weren't blocked in the first place. Either way, you can resume editing.

3. If you are still blocked, follow the directions below:
   1. Copy the {{unblock-auto|...}} code generated for you under the "Unblock request" section.
   2. Paste the code at the bottom of your user talk page, and click save.

      If you cannot edit your own talk page, use the Unblock Ticket Request System to make your request.

Rockpocket 17:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

It should be clear now - I just took a look and all is well. Sorry again about all the hassle - Alison ^❤ 17:59, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Everything's back to normal; thank you all for your help. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Be advised

You have now made four reversions of the same content on User talk:David Lauder. Please be mindful of the 3 revert limit, and that you can be blocked for continuing to revert and/or edit-war on this or any other page.

Okay, that's the formal warning, and I won't be doing the blocking personally if it comes to that. Just cut it out, please. Risker (talk) 22:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest with you, I've delayed responding to this message; but presumably you came here because the page in question was on your watch list. If you could see what was happening, and the vandalism that was taking place, why on Earth didn't you step in earlier to prevent the situation escalating? The edits in question were clear breaches of WP:VANDAL and WP:NPA and a more constructive approach might have been to protect the page, as presumably you saw that I had requested [8], per Wikipedia:User page#Use of page protection for user pages. I'm sorry to be quite so brutally honest with you, because I actually have a great deal of sympathy with Admins who go out on a limb, but I'd actually have a great deal more respect for your position if you similarly posted a vandalism warning on Giano's Talk page instead of picking on an easier target, and one you could rely on not to answer back. --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello Bonkers. Just to let you know that I haven't forgotten my promise with regards to DL. I have contacted the Arbs to see where we stand and await a response from them. Rockpocket 00:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Many thanks. Best if I don't get involved, I think! --Major Bonkers (talk) 08:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Want me to put in a word for DL? That should finish him off!! Actually with Vk restored I really can't see why DL shouldn't be. Sarah777 (talk) 20:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh I think DL is back, already. Giano (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Very likely I guess - but he wouldn't be the first, eh?! Sarah777 (talk) 21:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Is DL on the DL? Will we ever know who that mysterious person was, who used his computer, behind his back (when his back was briefly turned)? The plot continues. GoodDay (talk) 21:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Sarah777

I realize that you're putting a lot of effort Major Bonkers (talk · contribs) into getting User:Sarah777 unblocked, but please be careful not to overstate the case. There was a clear consensus for blocking and keeping her blocked, both at her talkpage, and at WP:AN. So when you say things like "We are all agreed", it looks like a bit of an attempt to do an end-run around the consensus process. I am especially concerned, since it appears that this is your only activity on Wikipedia these days. So could I please ask you to back off a bit? You are still welcome to participate in the discussion, but please be very cautious about trying to declare what is or isn't consensus. --Elonka 17:03, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for yours. To be fair to myself, I'm not sure that I am 'putting a lot of effort' into unblocking Sarah; I'm not an Admin, so I can't magically unblock; all that I am doing, in my humble way, is to try to achieve some sort of a consensus as to the conditions required for an unblock; something which, at the time that I was writing, no-one else was doing. As SirFozzie, the blocking Admin, pointed out, it was an indefinite block, not a permanent block. It was my intention that, on her Talk page (where she can participate) we could hammer out some principles before again approaching WP:ANI. My reference to 'we' was therefore to those participating in the discussion and not designed to exclude you or anyone else (although two other editors in that discussion seem to have got completely the wrong end of the stick).

As you have probably noticed, I've been on a trip to Poland and, although recently returned, found the same 'business as usual' so dispiriting that I haven't really had the heart to volunteer/ waste more of my time and left the 'Wikibreak' banner up. I'll back off a bit as you suggest but, frankly, a two-week block, which is what Sarah has served, is a pretty full punishment. I'd encourage you to read all my contributions on l'affaire Sarah (from my 'User Contributions' tag) to see where I'm coming from; I try to use language carefully, so I was slightly concerned that you might be reading into my posts meanings, and attempts to bully consensus, that aren't there and were not intended. Thank you again for your post. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:22, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Lauder

Unresolved

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Hello Major. Regarding your recent inquiry: I have nothing to report, I'm afraid. Nada. I understand ArbCom are volunteers with a lot asked of their time, but pretty much every time I have emailed them to request clarification, I have been ignored.

Where does that leave Lauder? Well, conventional wisdom would suggest silence from them on this issue can be pretty much read as a negative; no change in the status quo. I guess one could argue a lack of response suggests that they don't object to going forward (otherwise they would say so). So what do you think? Rockpocket 05:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Update! Obviously your talk page is essential reading for Arbs, Major. I received an email this morning noting that ArbCom is currently reviewing DL's status, but do not support an unblock at this time "due to continuing significant concerns." I think this leaves Lauder in a bit of a bind. Like Giano has found out, one can complain about, denigrate and agitate against ArbCom, but (beyond an appeal directly to Jimbo) there is very little anyone can do to convince the community to ignore their wishes. I don't think it will serve anyone to go ahead with an appeal to the community (as per Vk) against ArbCom's wishes.

My advice to Lauder then, is to continue his dialogue with ArbCom and attempt to address their concerns. He might also consider putting his case to Jimbo. Rockpocket 15:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to chance unprotecting his talk page yet again but it's constantly being abused when I do that, either by himself or Giano sniping at each other. Then there's the "not a sock" declarations at the top of the page, and the emails which are largely devoid of anything new. I'm going to do the AGF thing here and unprot again ... see how it goes - Alison ^❤ 21:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, how is me pointing out your findings an abuse? Giano (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Because, Giano, you're rubbing his nose in it, somewhat[9], regardless of his innocence or guilt. I know he's been caught "bang to rights", as VK would say, but let's not crow about it - Alison ^❤ 21:38, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I rather think that [10] is Sussexman rubbing your nose in it. However, if you are now saying it is OK to mislead and lie on one's page - Then alas! so be it. Giano (talk) 21:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is, and you're right. That's what he's doing (and indeed, in email). But then again, two wrongs and all that ... - Alison ^❤ 22:09, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

My understanding of what he has been saying is that Sussexman is a lawyer while he is a different person. He admits to knowing the lawyer and to having been given his password and having used it to tidy up Sussexman's user page. He did not know that is socking and acknowledges he has socked in this way. He maintains he is a different person and says he will not do this again. He would like to have Arbcom's significant concerns sent to him by email together with a list of how he should address them Berks911 (talk) 08:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

A little closer to the truth, maybe, but it doesn't take into account the votestacking on Giano's arbcom election and the fact that multiple accounts used the same computer within minutes of each other to vote in same election. I really don't see why Mr. Lauder should be unblocked until we see some sort of full and frank account of exactly what has happened here - Alison ^❤ 08:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Lauder double voted as Chelsea Tory. Berks911 (talk) 09:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

He actually quadruple-voted, in a mean attempt to sink Giano's chances at ArbCom. It was Lauder, Counter-revolutionary, Christchurch and Chelsea Tory - Alison ^❤ 00:18, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

ChelseaTory lacked suffrage unlike Sweetfirstouch. Counter-revolutionary is a different editor. Berks911 (talk) 08:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

CT certainly attempted to vote, and Counter-rev was engaging in meatpuppetry at best as CR was editing from Lauder's computer at the time - Alison ^❤ 09:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

And yes, User:Vintagekits was equally bad, votestacking in the other direction. Ultimately, they both got caught, and rightly so - Alison ^❤ 09:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to thank Rockpocket for taking the trouble to try to bring the case to some sort of conclusion. The other arguments have been well ventilated; for what it's worth, my own view is that there has obviously been some misconduct in the multiple voting, just as there was by Vintagekits. The arguments that applied in that case - not wishing to enforce a public humiliation, not inquiring too closely into motives, and, ultimately, letting bygones be bygones - should, in fairness, also be applied to David Lauder. As it is, a productive editor is simply stuck in what has previously (elsewhere) been described as a constant limbo which is unfair to him, and I'm not at all convinced that the difference in treatment between David Lauder and Vintagekits is particularly fair.

I'm not quite sure of what to make of the ArbCom's "continuing significant concerns"; that rather confirms my opinion that many contributors take WP far too seriously. Personally, I'd have thought that David Lauder's record speaks for itself; any ongoing concerns could surely be dealt with through a mentorship. Again, I'd like to thank Rockpocket for his work. --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:28, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I'd have thought that David Lauder's record speaks for itself. Banned by ArbCom for legal threats, one ban evading sock indef blocked for legal threats, three more ban evading socks indef blocked for sockpuppetry, multiple voting and such cant see similarity with VK myself. BigDunc^Talk 11:42, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

David Lauder has not threatened anyone nor was he banned by ArbCom. He denies categorically that he is a sock of Sussexman. 81.151.246.45 (talk) 18:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

(Sorry, Major B for doing what the IP is doing) Except he is, and he is. Stomping your feet and threatening to hold your breath till you turn blue isn't an effective unblock strategy. SirFozzie (talk) 19:21, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Substitute physical threats for legal threats, and isn't that pretty much exactly the same record as VK? Bastun^{BaStun not BaTsun} 13:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• No! Giano (talk) 21:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

And for the record, the anon editor above is  Confirmed as being David Lauder, evading his ban yet again and pretending to be someone else. This has just gone to new heights of absurdity - Alison ^❤ 00:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hyperbole surely? Berks911 (talk) 18:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Just as a last thought, I suppose that the ArbCom has notified DL of their particular concerns and requested that he answer them? He's not just being left in limbo? --Major Bonkers (talk) 10:38, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

FloNight told me their review "includes some direct correspondence with him [Lauder]." Rockpocket 22:33, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

British humour

So I was looking around for something new to illustrate, and ran across an incident I had heard about but never looked into (which actually surprised me, I'll explain at the end). In 1982 British Airways Flight 9 flew through a volcanic ash cloud from Galunggung, leading to the loss of all four engines for an uncomfortably long time. The captain then says:(emphasis mine) Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress. Frankly if I had been on that plane I'd of probably laughed my ass off, because I expect once the last engine shut down I'd of been so terrified the idea of it not being distressing would be the absolute last thing on my mind.

If I remember correctly the British have a tendency toward understatement...

(Besides aviation I love Volcanology, seeing as how they overlap I'm surprised I hadn't taken an interest sooner. Turns out 2 other 747s have had almost the exact same thing happen, weird) Anynobody 06:31, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, the British sensibility runs, or certainly used to, towards understatement and self-deprecation. I'm afraid that we associate the Americans with rather bombastic self-promotion - I suppose that Donald Trump is the prime exemplar - which grates terribly. (Having said that, of course, it's very much 'horses for courses', and the Americans that I've known have always been charming and notable for their generosity; it's just the national stereotype.)

I remember the reporting of that BA flight, though I agree with you that I'd be a bit more concerned. Whilst I wouldn't see much point in running up and down the aisle screaming, 'Oh my God, we're all going to die!', I do think that it would be a marvelous and quite reasonable opportunity to loot the drinks wagon; in the quarter of an hour or so before the aeroplane made its 'emergency landing', I think that I might manage to make a quite serious dent in the stock, before I start humming 'Nearing my God to thee'! There was an article in the newspaper - which, annoyingly, I now can't find - about how a poet was struck by the fact that of the passengers in the 9/11 aeroplanes who had the opportunity to telephone someone after the hijacking, almost all called their family or 'significant other' and told them or left a message about how much they loved them; and he (the poet), in addition to writing rather a banal poem about this, thought that it was a wonderful affirmation of the human character.

Regarding Operation Chastise, you might be interested in these two clips; this from the movie (it won a special effects Oscar, as you can see!) and this beer advertisement, which also has the Eric Coates 'Dambusters March'. The film is much better for being resolutely underplayed and factual; I dread to think what the remake will be like - I have visions of the Hollywood mogul saying 'P for Popsie and M for Mother? Whad kind of limey pantywaist rubbish is this? I wan' P for Pussy and M for Mofo!' --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure it's probably gonna be worse than you imagine, as a rule it seems like movies (and even "educational" shows) fudge the facts, I'd expect P for Papa and M for Mike. (I've seen the beer commercial before, a network here ran a funniest commercials in the world show and it was my favorite. "He must drink <whatever, the name escapes me>". Speaking of funny commercials, we have one here that I just started seeing for AT&T which is pretty funny. Bill Curtis, a guy associated with news documentary shows like Investigative Reports, on a beach standing in front of a downed plane with the word Amelia on its nose. He says "I came to this island and you'll never guess what I found...the internet." Also, I've actually seen a couple of commercials for our main man the Cruiser's "religion", exploding volcano and all imploring us to go to dianetics.org.)

Back to Chastise, I've been working on a 3D version of the graphic to illustrate the towers and their part in aiming as well as a better view of what the run looked like. (I'm sorry the plane in this preview is a B-24, I haven't built a Lancaster yet and don't wanna go to the trouble if it looks like this isn't worth doing, but it'll give you an idea what I'm picturing. Remember this is a preview, essentially a rough sketch.) I think it'll be really informative, what do you say? Anynobody(?) 05:59, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I love the 3D graphic - very good! It's a great pity we can't just use a clip from the film; I can't help feeling that you're rather reinventing the wheel by duplicating what already exists. I see from the disambiguation page that there are also some American Dambusters.

We haven't heard much from the Cruiser recently. I expect that'll all change when his new movie comes out. I see that the producers have used a shedload of English character actors, which is probably a good idea as the Cruiser's dramatic range seems to be limited solely to displaying emotion BY SHOUTING A LOT! --Major Bonkers (talk) 11:53, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Rockpocket, Giano, et al...

Thank you for your kind words - although, you may be the only person there that thinks so. But in any case, I think it's best I stay away from that topic for now - until things have calmed down (including Irpen's/Giano's anger), I foresee no change, unfortunately. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:30, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Not at all; and thank you for dropping by. I often find that some of the most thoughtful commentary is added by people who aren't Admins. If you do ever decide to put yourself up for that bad eminence, please do let me know, and I'll give you my vote. Major Bonkers (talk) 14:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I find I can edit and contribute far more not being an admin, and your comment about non-admins is self-evident. Thanks, SqueakBox 04:18, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ha, ha! You're another case in point. Major Bonkers (talk) 07:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Colstoun Pear

I just came across your comment about the Colstoun Pear on the Broun Baronets page. In answer to your question, the pear is still in the possession of the Hay family. The late Lady Mariath Hay kept it at her house (not Yester House) in Gifford. I assume upon her death it passed on to one of her descendants - Lord Hay? Tpacw (talk) 12:52, 30 July 2008 (UTC)