Thank you for your contributions.
Please learn how wikipedia works and read how other articles about separatist states are written.
In your case it is particularly important for you to read and understand the wikipedia's neutrality policy.
We appreciate new contributors, especially from areas not well represented in the internet. However please understand that wikipedia's style is different from newspapers, where people freely use strong words and political cliches. Our goal is to provide correct information without excessive emotions. Facts must speak for themselves.
Dear Mr mikka, Thanks for your welcoming. Actually those images belong to IAG (International Action Group) Abkhazeti, which gave me authority to use them freely only for web sites. Please let me know if you need official conformation from them.
As for neutrality, we must not forget the facts and truthfulness of these conflicts. I promise to be fair, nutral and always use valid and reliable sources when editing or contributin anything to Wiki.
Thanks for your warm welcome and withing you all the best
Hello Noxchi Borz, and thanks for taking an interest in the history of Georgia, which is, in a matter of fact, inseparable from that of Abkhazia, and to claim otherwise means to push a POV. The article, in my opinion, should focus on the fact that the region is home to both Abkhaz and Georgian peoples, both have their arguments and both suffered heavily from the conflict, not to say about the ethnic cleansing of the Georgians.
The current version of the article does lack neutrality. It doesn’t clearly explain the de jure (internationally recognized) status of Abkhazia and the Abkhazia location map within Georgia was removed without reasoning. I think a box containing the basic info about Abkhazia, as an autonomous republic within Georgia, should also be added.
I’ll probably start from the early history of Abkhazia… It’ll take some time, however. When contributing to the article about such a controversial and delicate issue, you have to have your edits backed up by millions of references, so you know…
Best wishes, Kober 20:07, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mr Kober, The problem which i have with the author and moderators of that article is following (this observation was done by numerous visitors): Mr Khoikhoi has typical anti Georgian POV, no previous knowledge of history, conflict and issue of Abkhazia. He compared the problem with Soviet occupation of Baltic states, rejected the scholarly work (which is highly praised by many western universities) of Lang, Andersen and Allen because their book title has the word :"Georgian." In his idea Abkhazian or Abkhazia has no place in Georgian history. Im sure he never read works by Abkhazian writer and public benefactor Gulua (he reminds me more of Iskander and so called historian Hewitt-anti Georgian demagogues).
People of such educational level control and manipulate the subject of Abkhazia on Wikipedia. Our professor at York has already banned students from using Wikipedia as a source or reliable data.
Mr. mikka (a belorussian or russian) has logically pro Russian POV (i have not seen his neutrality in the issue). Tasc is another Russian with typical anti Georgian hysterics and POV. I have studied for a while now the issue of Abkhazia by researching various sources, historic materials and 200 pages of Helsinki Human Rights report on Abkhazia.
The history section is a complete falsification. Levon and Feodosius (kings of Abkhazeti-Egrisi) were of Georgian origins and not of Apsua or Abasgian.
For two millennium Abkhazian history exist within Georgian (Roger Rosen, 2005).
Im not going into more details.
Please open the article on Karabakh and compare it with Abkhazia. "Nagorno-Karabakh is a region of Azerbaijan that has declared itself independent as the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh"
How is Abkhazia different from Karabakh? Abkhazia by all laws and officially is part of Georgia.
Also Mr Bagaph is not a President (the capital letter "P" indicates official status) as he was not officially recognized by international community as such, he is president (self-claimed). The term "de facto government" is wrong, the proper name is separatist government. Pro Georgian government is exile is very wrong. By official name its "Legitimate Government of Abkhazian Autonomous Republic in Exile" UN resolutions 95, 98, 2001, etc and Helsinki Convention on Abkhazia 1998. This government was democratically and officially recognized, headed by Zhiuli Shartava, Raul Eshba (an Abkhaz BTW), Tamaz Nadareishvili (whose ancestors live din Abkhazia since days of Prince Shervashidze) and later Guram Gabiskiria (killed and mutilated on September 27, 1995 along with Shartava, Eshba, and many others). Mr Saakashvili has removed Mr Alasania from heading this government and made him an envoy of president of Georgia to Abkhazia (a very serious and big mistake by Saakashvili in my opinion).
Unfortunately, you are Georgian and your editing will always be viewed as pro Georgian POV. That article is controlled by anti Georgian demagogues with pro Russian administrators like "belorussian" mikka. Luis Dingley, YU Noxchi Borz 19:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Cut it out Noxchi, will ya? For the last time stop saying I have "anti-Georgian POV". I have nothing against Georgians - STOP. --Khoikhoi 00:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
it is my right to claim that based on your comments and ill-treatment of the subject. I have many arguments copied from you which can back up this claim and therefore discredit you completely in relation with conflict situation in Abkhazia due to biased POV. Im trying to bring up truthfulness and alert people in case of biased, un-sources and falsified materials which mislead the publish and derives them from the established methods of sourcing, research, scholarly work, etc. In Universities and academia’s around the world have those methods are fully applied for any historic or political topic. They definitely place a great importance on that and maintain zero tolerance on re-editing or changing the historic facts based on personal views or opinions. Thanks L.Dingley. Noxchi Borz 14:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I said that Abkhazia is a de facto independent country, and then you started to call me "anti-Georgian", again and again. Please review Wikipedia's policy on personal attacks. --Khoikhoi 18:13, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a personal attack and I have every right to criticize your comments which has nothing to do with your personality. Abkhazia IS NOT a country (please review and research all resolutions by OSCE, UN, EU Council, etc) and even can not be considered as “de facto country” due to deportation and expulsion of more than 300,000 of the regions citizens (one of the policies of ethnic-cleansing). It is a separatist enclave within jurisdiction of Georgian constitution, which is fully recognized and supported by international organizations/community (which governs the international law). Please understand that your opinions are very much pro separatist e.i anti Georgian POV. Dont threaten me with bans (you were banned by Wiki before). You fail to bring up arguments which are supported by SOURCES. So far you have only expressed your opinion based on your point of view which I find pro-separatist and anti Georgian. And THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK! If you do find it so, stop massaging me and I will cease to communicate with you. I don’t find any reason to continue our conversation due to your threats and endless claims with no reliable sources. Please read the policies of academic research in the field of History and Politics.Noxchi Borz 20:50, 5 April 2006 (UTC) 20:49, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Noxchi, I'm apologize for my sarcasm at Talk:Abkhazia - I hope we can work things out. BTW, at Sir Oliver Wardrop, the correct way to link to the country is by doing this: [[Georgia (country)|Georgia]], not [[Georgia]]. Take care, Khoikhoi 03:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No apologies please, my fault. Thank you very much for your help, i will always ask for your advice for starting any new article. I will definitely work with you and ask for advices (specially when you are Wiki veteran) if you would have time. Please add any corrections, edits or remarks if mistakes are made. Thanks again! All the best Khoikhoi. LD Noxchi Borz 03:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your kindness. :) I'll go through some of the articles you created right now and see if there's anything that needs to be fixed. Cheers, Khoikhoi 03:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I found this while searching the Wiki Commons. All the best, Khoikhoi 04:58, 16 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Khoi! Thanks a lot, that’s a nice photo (first time I see color photo of Tbilisi of 1919). I was there in 93, 95 and in 2003, very beautiful city. After I went to Abkhazia with an American photographer. I have great photos but Wiki is very strict on photo sharing :) Thanks again! Regards. Noxchi Borz 23:40, 17 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Khevsur clansmen, ca. 1910
You're welcome! I also recall reading a very old National Geographic, it showed men in armor, saying "it is rumored that they are descendants of Crusaders". While looking through Wikipedia, I found this article, and there it was, the same picture! You know anything about this? —Khoikhoi 00:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. There are many scholars which claim that those on photo (Khevsurs-the Georgian mountaineers) are decedents of French/English/Scottish crusaders which came to Georgia to give aid to King David the Builder. One of these scholars was a Scottish fellow who traveled there and found many similarities between Georgian mountaineers and Scottish (especially their weapons, costumes and traditions). There is a name in Georgia which is believed to be originated from French Crusades. Prangishvili (prangi means French and shvili is typical Georgian ending, meaning son of). Khevsurs have amazing costumes covered with crosses (Jerusalem or Maltese Cross, the ones which were used in the crusade). King David later used them for his own Crusade to liberate Georgian lands from Selchuks and Persians. They still live in the middle ages :) They have same code of honor as in middle ages. They speak 10 century Georgian and still wear their costumes. Today, their community is shrinking due to hardship. Their villages are almost impossible to reach. You need helicopter to get there. One of their famous cities was Shatili, never has been changed since Middle Ages. But those claims are only theories. King David intentionally dressed his army more resembling Crusaders. There were about 100 Crusaders in Georgia and many of them stayed there. Noxchi Borz 00:23, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting, thank you. I wasn't aware that they still dressed like that today! Cheers, —Khoikhoi 00:48, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Khoi, This photo i uploaded specially for you. Its Khevsurs, wearing their traditional costume. :) Enjoy! Noxchi Borz 13:49, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much! I'll add it to my user page. :) Cheers, —Khoikhoi 01:14, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your great work on Abkhazia and for your sympathy towards the victims of ethnic cleansing. Cheers, Kober 20:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Kober, I just wrote facts based on tons of sources and documents. I also have seen many video materials and reviewed reports from UN observers and Helsinki people. I also studied Rwandan Genocide and Chechen crisis. I found many similarities between these horrific events. Thanks for your kind words. All the best Kober! Noxchi Borz 21:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
p.s Kober when you have time please correct the Georgian names on my articles. Im bad with Georgian names :) Thanks a lot Noxchi Borz 21:09, 18 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
InShaneee was a good person to contact. No, Eupator is not permitted to make personal attacks. He has not broken the 3RR rule yet (neither have you) but both of you are getting close. Some other admins you might want to contact are El C and FrancisTyers.
When someone is personally attacking you like that, the best thing to do it report it to an admin, and ignore them. Do not insult him as well, as it just adds to the problem. Anyways, I'm pretty busy with a whole lot of other issues, and I'm afraid I can't really get involved. I hope that the admins that I mentioned can help. —Khoikhoi 06:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Khoi, Thanks a lot, i will ignore him completely. You are 100% correct. Sorry to bother you. All the best my friend. Regards Luis. Noxchi Borz 13:22, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, I'm not bothered at all. Take care. —Khoikhoi 16:28, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Khoi you are the best :) You fixed my User page :) i worked on it for 3 hours and still made a mess :) God took away the talent for computers for me :) Thanks my friend, i really appreciate this. :) All the best Khoi! Noxchi Borz 16:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
LOL, it took me two seconds! :p You might want to add {{user typewriter}} to your user page. —Khoikhoi 19:57, 21 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hallo, Noxchi. Sorry for replying so late... I was on my Easter holidays in Kakheti. I've never heard of a Rachvelian official in Mr Bush's administration:) It's very interesting. Racha is indeed one of the most picturesque areas in Georgia, with its mountains and historical monuments.
Stalin probably made movie about Saakadze to draw parallels between the Persian and German invasions and to turn Georgian patriotism into an instrumental of Soviet military success.
You said you have contacts with the Abkhaz diaspora in th US. Do you mean Mr Kazan et al? It's really interesting what they think about Abkhazia's future. As far as I know, Kazan has visited Tbilisi twice after his break with Ardzinba. Unfortunately, he seems not to enjoy much support in Abkhazia. I'm interested very much in your personal opinion about the region's future. Hopefully there's still a chance for peaceful solution.
We may also create articles about the Kartvelian studies and David Marshall Lang in particular, so as to prevent ones like eupator from confusing him with Tamerlane :). Wish you best of luck in your work on your masters. Cheers, Kober 17:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. You can call me Givi. This is actually my given name :). It's of Arabic origin, but I've never heard if it's in use in the Arab world.
Givi, qriste aghzdga, xristos anesti! wishing you all the best and many blessings. Yes Mr Bush had Rachvelian cook in the white house. He made amazing dishes. As for mr Kazan, unfortunately he is not a smart politician or a diplomat. However, he may be a better candidate for peace talks than war criminal Arzimba, a pro russian demagogue Khadjimba or the gang of corrupted criminals from Bagapsh team. Georgians have suffered tremendously, however for the abkhaz this war became the beginning of national downfall. Abkhaz language, traditions and history flourished thanks to unity with Georgia. Gulia (Abkhaz writer) wrote many times about the importance of Abkhaz co-existence with Georgians. You see, 60% of people who claim they are Abkhaz have mingrelian origins. The rest of 40% are Aps'wa (small ethnic group which migrated from Adigey-Circassia) and strictly maintains north Caucasian heritage. This 60% of Abkhaz with mingrelian origins have a strong bond with rest of Georgians (like Aps’wa have with Adigey, Shapsugs, Abazg and Circassians). Because of thugs and criminals like Arzimba, abkhaz nation has lost its historic roots with Georgia and therefore enters a catastrophic decline of national conscience. Russian regime in Caucasus demonstrated the abolition and cultural genocide of Caucasian nations (example: Adigey, Circassians, Daghestanians, Kabardinians, etc). Abkhazia is headed for the same direction thanks to group of people like khajimba, bagapsh, etc. In History we don’t see any violent hatred or conflict between abkhaz and georgians. This conflict was initiated for downgrading Georgian self determination and destroying her unity. Russians are one of the best specialists in Georgian history. They know all the weak and strongs sides of this small nation. They use the old tactics of Byzantine and Persia, which divided Georgia into small peaces and devoured her statehood. How will it end? How many times was Georgia divided into small kingdoms? Was this the first experience with separatism? No. It existed in mountainous parts of Pkhovi and even in Svaneti. Laz people had gone through separatism and ended up in a catastrophic reality. Believe it or not, the only Georgian kingdom which maintained the notion of unity with rest of Georgia was Apkhazeti (Abkhazia). For Georgians the main focus of their unity was concentrated on returning Tao from cloches of Byzantium. However, the fate of Lazika and Tao-Klarjeti are not necessary applicable to Abkhazia. Nobody will recognize this part of Georgia as independent. The Abkhaz total about maximum (and it’s over estimated) 100,000. For them to be a true free nation, they must first get rid of Russians (which is absurd). Even the Russian domination of Caucasus is temporary. The biggest loss fro Georgians was the loss of information war (which was waged on her by the Russians). As you see from wiki, they have accomplished much more. They rewrite, re-edit and manipulate history. People who don’t have any background in history or reality of Abkhazia have an image of a small nation struggling for their freedom like Chechens, Corsicans, Tibet, etc. For them Abkhaz history has nothing to do with Georgian. They don’t know even simple facts that Abkhaz history was written on the pages of Georgian history. How can you write history of Jerusalem without mention of Jews and Palestinians who live there? For Abkhaz to survive, they must find ways to communicate with fellow Georgians. These are two very ancient people who existed with each other for centuries. Gulia wrote: Abkhaz who builds his home and his window is not directed at the house of his Georgian neighbour, has no future. You know history very well. Make an analysis based on historic past. Its not what Russians want (this is very hard fro them to understand) but how reality dictates. I still dont understand why they treat Georgia as enemy. Noxchi Borz 18:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your congratulation of Easter. I also wish you and your family all the best.
Unfortunately, Georgia's government hasn't yet developed a clear policy concerning how to deal with information warfare. There are a few Internet resources and most of them lack quality and accessibility, particularly for English-speakers. As for ethnic Abkhaz, most of them are thoroughly brainwashed by anti-Georgian propaganda and their position is so intractable that direct dialogue seems impossible, at least until the Russian "peacekeepers" are stationed in Abkhazia. Recently, media reported that Bagapsh is going to ban the Georgian language in the Georgian schools of Gali sector, and the separatists are holding military exercises allegedly involving 5000 men. And the Georgian government is again too late to react. Thanks again for your comments. Kind regards, Kober 20:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Givi, you are correct. Georgian government has failed so far in the question of Abkhazia. That is mostly due to dismemberment of Abkhaz government and death of Nadareishvili who has contributed a great deal in infromation war. As for Bagapsh banning Georgian language in Gali. It would be a deadly move, which would provoke wide scale insurrection and partisan warfare of mingrel population. This will also trigger insurrection among 300,000 IDPs who live in miserable conditions. Separatist force of 5,000 will not be enough to stop advancing mingrelian rebels who after taking Gali district will head for Sukhumi. Past 10 years the Georgian authorities and Russia has artificially frozen the move for insurrection among Georgians in Gali. Bagapsh by implementing cultural genocide will trigger this uprising and this will lead to full-scale war with disastrous outcome for abkhaz. Im not mentioning svans which hold Kodori, one of the most strategic places in Abkhazia (militarily, Kodori is the place where the strike on Sukhumi will take place). I don’t think Bagapsh is suicidal by banning Georgian language in mingrelian Gali. If so, he is definitely being told by Moscow in order to provoke full scale war. However, Givi Georgia is facing much greater threat. War in Iran might bring a terrifying outcome for Caucasus. I don’t think Saakashvili is prepared. Abkhazian crisis is temporary. Iran always posed threat and disaster for Christian Georgia. Also dont forget, war in Abkhazia mean war in whole of Caucasus which currently is boiling. Luis. Noxchi Borz 00:04, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, Luis. Thanks for Georgia template. Nice gift! In return, please accept this present.
I took it a few weeks ago from Mount Tabori overlooking Old Tbilisi. Regards, Kober 20:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wow thanks a lot. What a beautiful photo. :) Thanks again Givi! Lets start to work on Lang article. Noxchi Borz 20:10, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, I am also happy that are people interested in Chechnya in Wiki. You mentioned Kraków. I am actually from this city. You are from Canada. I know there are Chechen people in Canada. I wonder if you know them. If you want to know more about Poland and Cracow you can e-mail me as well. Regards, Jasra 20:29, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Jasra. Thanks a lot for your massage. Im not Chechen. Im Canadian (with mix background: English, Irish and French Canadian). I dont know any Chechens in Canada. I was in Georgia near Shatili were Chechen refugees live. Their living conditions are appealing and horrific. And also their experiences with the war are extremely tragic. That is why i understand their cause. Russia is intentionally exterminating these people. Also I have been researching Abkhazia crisis and spoke with many refugees from there. Wiki is a strange place, it has many positive sides but also very negative. It’s full of Russian nationalists who have very aggressive policy. Russian ultra-nationalism (you probably know the recent rise of fascism in Russia) is a very dangerous. Your country has seen many sides of it and has suffered tremendously. Krakow is very beautiful and I truly admire polish people. I will definitely email you. Thanks again for your massage and hope to hear from you soon. All the best. Noxchi Borz 20:54, 26 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Gosh, it's been ages since I read some monograph on Warsaw Uprising, but I'll try to respond the best I can. As far as I remember there were no large specifically Ukrainian units fighting in Warsaw against the Poles at the time of the uprising. However, there were indeed Ukrainian units fighting against the uprising. The matter is pretty well-described in the article on 14th SS division, be sure to check it. A similar phenomenon, though this one did indeed start during the uprising and not after the war (as is the case of SS Galizien in Warsaw myth) happened to Andrei Vlasov's men. In Warsaw pretty everyone believed that all Russians fighting against the Uprising were Vlasov's men - which was not true. Nevertheless, in countless accounts the hiwi units are called własowcy, or Vlasovites. I guess the situation was similar to the western front, where all German tanks were called Panthers, even if they were not. Anyway, there were Ukrainians fighting against the Uprising, but not the Vlasov's men, as the myth had it - and not the 14th SS division. The fame of Vlasov, who was perhaps the best publicized of Russian generals fighting alongside the Germans, made all former Soviet citizens fighting alongside the Germans "Vlasovites", regardless of their true unit. However, as I mentioned, it was not until Vlasov's post-war trial that the Commie-controlled newspapers called him the butcher of Warsaw, thus adding greatly to myth's popularity.
Indeed the two largest hiwi units you mentioned were Dirlewanger's Bde and the 111th Infantry Regiment, composed primarily of Azeri soldiers. Interestingly, there were also at least two Azeri officers, former pre-war officers of the Polish Army, who took part in the fights on the Polish side. Anyway, the combat history of Dirlewanger's brigade is pretty well described in the wiki articles on him and the uprising. First it slaughtered up to 50,000 civilians in the Wola massacre, then moved to the Old Town (another 5,000 sick and wounded murdered after the Polish forces withdrew from the area, the remaining 35,000 being sent to concentration camps) and then to Czerniaków and Powiśle - along the Vistula. It's worth noting that, outside of the so-called criminal battalion (composed mostly of German criminals allowed to join the unit in exchange for being freed from the prisons and camps), the unit also included the so-called Russian Battalion (hiwis) and Eastern-Muslim SS Regiment, composed mostly of Azeri and Turkmen.
The third largest unit was the RONA brigade (or rather it's assault regiment) took part in the fights in Ochota and then in the city centre. They fought against the uprising for only 10 days (August 4-14th), but they managed to organize at least 500 mass murders - and ran their own, semi-private concentration camp in one of the marketplaces (Zieleniak). Then, after suffering some 30% in casualties, the regiment was moved out of Warsaw and was used to prevent the Home Army from breaking into the besieged city from the forests outside Warsaw.
There were also a number of smaller non-German units. Parts of the 13th SS Sonderbattalion (Belarusian) defended the German-only district of Warsaw. The 34th Police Rifle Regiment (under Franz Wichmann) was composed of three battalions, two of them being composed of both German and Ukrainian, while the other was purely German. Another "Ukrainian" unit was the 209th Cossack Schutzmannschaft Battalion, composed not only from Ukrainian Cossacks, but also from those from Russia. However, due to Polish complicated history, hardly anyone here knows that there are non-Ukrainian Cossacks and so the unit was also referred as Ukrainian. Probably the best-known Ukrainian unit to fight on the German side was the so-called Volhynian Legion, or Ukrainian Self-Defence Legion, which numbered some several hundred men altogether (between 300 and 700 men under Petro Diachenko, a pre-war officer of the Polish Army) and was in fact attached to the 13th SS Galizien in 1945. The unit fought in Czerniaków in mid-September and then in Kampinos until the very end.
Outside of Warsaw, in the outer line of defences against the Home Army, there were additional foreign units. Among them were the 3rd Cossack Regiment under Bondarenko (mostly Ukrainian), the IV/57 cavalry battalion (also Cossacks) and the 69th independent cavalry battalion (Cossacks). The three fought in the area of Kampinos Forest and Żoliborz. Other units to serve in German service in the area were the 572ns Infantry Battalion (Ukrainian; under Col. Zinovev) and the Russian 580th cavalry battalion (Russian unit under German officer, Ernst Kalamorz). The latter was later dispatched to the city centre, where it took part in the fights. Finally, there was also a separate I/111 Azeri Battalion (under Capt. Scharrenberg) and the II "Bergmann" Battalion composed of all nations of the Caucasus (under Mertelsmann).
Phew, I guess it's a pretty comprehensive list of all non-German units. There were also Hungarians stationed to the west of Warsaw, but their loyalty to their ally was limited, to put it mildly, and many of them defected to the Polish side while others commonly sold their arms to the Polish Home Army. And of course they were not hiwis. I hope you don't mind my reply is so unorganised, but I simply have to go now.
Oh, and thanks for your kind words, it's always nice there are people who actually value my work :) //Halibutt 17:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Pan Halibutt, Thanks so much for such an insightful and very informative information. I didn’t really expect to find out so many things in one day. Thanks to you now I have full information on Foreign Volunteers in Warsaw Uprising. I was well aware of RONA participation in uprising and also was convinced in the falsehood regarding Vlasov. However, Vlasov made numerous mistakes when he implemented Russian nationalistic policies in KONR regarding the self determination of many nations under Russian control. Although he later corrected that mistake. There was a big opposition from Ukrainian side about the involvement of 14 SS in the uprising. They still have firm believe that those were false allegations and polish provocations to present them as villains. I still don’t understand the main root causes of polish Ukrainian conflict. These are two very close nations. I think they have much greater enemy in the east. Its very sad to read about Azeri participation in the uprising. Azeris joined Wermacht due to many reasons but mainly for national liberation (others like Armenians Georgians, Baltic people, Ukrainians, Turkistani has same reasons). Is it true that dmitry Shalikashvili (former officer in Polish army of Georgian decent) was member of Georgian SS (under BregadenFuhrer Tsulukidze) and he took part in the uprising? I think those were only allegations. He was one of the Georgian émigrés (of aristocratic background) who loved and admired Poland. Please visit: http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Poland/georpol.htm
And please let me know what you think about it. I’m very happy to have found you because it’s very hard to meet a person which such a vast knowledge in military history. I have tons of questions but I don’t think you have enough time to answer them. They start from Ulans of Napoleon (in Spain and Waterloo) till the massacre of Polish officers by Soviets. Thanks again for dedicating your time and giving me so much info. Im planning to start article on Georgians in Polish army and if you have some info or want to help out I would be grateful. All the best Pan halibut. Best wishes. Noxchi Borz 18:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Don't mention it, I'm always glad to help. In fact I had to refresh my memory with an article from Rzeczpospolita daily which listed all the units as I forgot the names of most of them. Seems like I'm getting old... :D
Anyway, as to Georgians, the matter is more complicated that it might seem. After the Bolshevik annexation of Georgia in the earlu 1920's dozens of thousands of people migrated mostly to Europe. As Piłsudski was generally friendly towards all countries that were formerly under Imperial Russian rule, he invited a number of Georgians to receive military training in Polish academies. Altogether, some 2,000 Georgians were promoted to NCOs and officers, and then served in the Polish Army as contract officers. The contract was a way to pass by some treaties with the LoN which made the service of foreigners in Polish armed forces much harder. So, in other words, they were somewhere in between officers, volunteers and mercenaries. Should history go some other way these people would be trained well enough to form a core of a future Georgian army - much like officers of other eastern nationalities also serving in Poland. However, in 1930s it became clear that changes in the east and the fall of Communism was highly unlikely, and some of the Georgians asked for Polish citizenship, which they were granted. Others remained stateless or of Georgian citizenship, generally not recognized by anyone.
Most of the Georgians took part in the war of 1939 on the Polish side, often in ranks as high as Colonel and several of them commanded their own regiments composed of Polish soldiers. Perhaps the highest ranking of their group were the six generals: generał dywizjiZachariasz Bakradze (deputy commander of Polish 15th Infantry Division) and people with the rank of generał brygady: Aleksander Czcheidze (deputy commander of Polish 16th Infantry Division; murdered by the NKVD in 1941), Iwan Kazbek, Aleksander Koniaszwili, Kiril Kutateładze and Aleksander Zachariadze. The other notable guy was Wiktor Łomidze, the unfortunate commander of the ORP Gryf. Another naval officer was Jerzy Tumanszwili, the guy ended his career as a Captain - and with a Virtuti Militari on his chest, a thing uncommon in the Polish Navy. Quite a notable commander was Lt.Col.Walerian Tewzadze, the commander of the northern sector of the Polish defences during the siege of Warsaw. Major Michał Kwaliaszwili was a commander of a cavalry battalion within the 15th Uhlans Regiment. And so on, there were Georgians in pretty every major unit, also in the air forces (including the most prestigious Aviation School of Dęblin, where there were at least two Georgian instructors. You might want to check this forum for some more info.
Nb: all the names are rendered in Polish as that's how they were written here. It's most probable that their original Georgian names were put down differently. //Halibutt 02:31, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Pan Halibutt, You can not imagine how helpful this information was. I can’t express enough gratitude. This info actually will help me to do more research on those Georgians. As I know Polish government in 1920 also supported liberation movements within republics of Caucasus. From many émigrés in Poland they organized an organization called “Prometey” which was financed by Polish government in establishing military units composed of Caucasian nationals. They even had training camps all across Poland. Polish government also conducted serious research on cultures and history of Caucasian nations and collected great amount of information (later used by Germans Abwehr to form eastern volunteer units). There were some operations conducted in Georgia in 1930s. Via Turkey Georgian insurgents attacked Soviets but most of these operations failed. Many people in Tbilisi who have been involved were executed. Shakilashvilis biography is very interesting and controversial. He was one of the Georgian aristocrats who fled the Bolshevik invasion. He joined Polish army. In his work he expressed gratitude and love for Poland. When Germans invaded he was contacted by Georgian émigrés from Berlin (they had organized Georgian Committee White George). Members of that committee were his former friends and fellow aristocrats (count Amilakshvari, Prince Dadiani and Chavchavadze). They pleaded with him to join the Georgian Legion (under the command of a brilliant general Shalva Maglakelidze). He was convinced by Abwehr agents and by German propaganda for liberation of Georgia. He joined his friend who became BregadenFuhrer Michael Tsulukidze (former officer of Georgian Democratic Republic) in newly formed Georgian SS unit. Both of them had good relations with Admiral Canaris. During the uprising in Warsaw, Salikashvili refused to join German units in Poland and surrendered to the western allies in France. However, there was a version by Soviet propagandists who claimed that Shalikashvili took part I the uprising. By this claim they made him a villain. Before he died in US, John Shalikashvili (son and later a big man in US army) witnessed his last moments. He asked John to never forget Georgia and go back there someday. Its very interesting relationship Polish had with Georgians before and after WWII. Unfortunately many poles don’t know even a simple thing about Georgia (a country which admired them). With Kober I will try to make an article about it in Wiki. What do you think? Thanks a lot again Hali, I really appreciate your help. All the best. LD. Noxchi Borz 20:54, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis, I wrote an article on WED Allen. Could you please revise it? Your comments will be welcomed. Thanks a lot, Kober 20:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. This is a 1925 photo showing the Georgian and Polish officers in Poland. I’ve found it on the website of the Georgian Community of Poland.
Dear Givi, your page is excellent about WED Allen. Good job :) Thank you very much for the photo, it is almost impossible to find any photo of Georgians in Polish army. Regards. LD Noxchi Borz 20:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can email me here, and then I'll reply. I'd rather not mention my email on Wikipedia, as to avoid spam and stuff like that. I'm looking forward to the pictures, however! :D BTW, have you seen this gallery from the Wikimedia Commons? —Khoikhoi 01:49, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis, how are you? As I promised, I translated and put together some materials found across Georgian websites. Please check "Georgian emigration in Poland" and fix the mistakes. Given your brilliant knowledge of the issue, I hope you will make the article much better than it is now :). Cheers, Kober 22:21, 7 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Kober, you did a wonderful job on the Georgian emigration in Poland article. I'll add more info later on. I'm trying to monitor Abkhazia article. There are too many POVs and biased claims on that article. Those Russian veterans of Wiki are working very well. I noticed that they manipulate the information on many articles (Polish, Ukrainian, Caucasian, etc). You see its all due to anti-Georgian hysteria which Mr Putin has initiated in their country. For them the name "Gruzin" is a label of an enemy. A country which is swept with poverty and misery needs enemies to take away focus from the realities of the crisis. Germans have used similar tactics in their own crisis period. For every fault they blamed Jews. If you read Russian press, its always very negative and provocative towards Georgia. Its massive tendency of Russians to downgrade and wage war on Georgian through any means (including information war). Unfortunately as I noticed Georgians are not ready for this information war and so far they didn’t make any progress. Thanks for your kind words, unfortunately I’m very far from know many things about Georgia. It’s a region which is full of mystery. All the best. Noxchi Borz 14:32, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot for your comments and Shalikashvili photo. Dear Luis, your kind words do encourage me to continue my contibutions to wiki:). If you could read Russian forums, you'd be astonished what kind of comments are made on Georgia and Georgians. They use all sort of profanities. You can find much criticism about Russia on Georgian websites, but they never use such expletives. Russians accuse us of Russophobia, but their reaction to Georgia's pro-Western moves is nothing but hysteria. See, for example, 2006 Russian ban of Moldovan and Georgian wines. Unfortunately, Georgia lost the information war with Russia, but I observe that English-language news sites increasingly use Georgian sources, particularly civil.ge. Saakashvili's government is considering the withdrawal from the Commonwealth of Independent States, which is actually a failed attempt to revitalize the USSR. The membership of the CIS has been considered in Georgia as a national disgrace. I'll work more on the Confederation article. Best wishes, Kober 16:30, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it. Oh, and I noticed you joined our small Polish military club :) Welcome! As you can see there's still plenty of articles to create. I'll give Wiktor Łomidze a try as he's been on my to-do list for quite some time now. //Halibutt 15:31, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite sure. It was something about licence, I think. Now there is an action in commons to remove all the graphics which have not clearly difined copyrights. So I believe this time it had nothing to do with political reasons (I hope at least). For now I have provisionally repaired the template by putting another flag. However feel free to put a symbol with an emblem if you find one. Regards, Jasra 21:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Luis, thanks a lot for the barnstar and for your help with Georgia-related topics. I really appreciate it. I'd like to present you this picture by the Polish artist Ilya Zankovski showing Mt Ushba in Svaneti. Thanks again and best wishes. Kober 20:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are most welcome my dear friend. Did you get my email? Noxchi Borz 20:04, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tnx for the info. If you could provide proper references (info on the book they were reprinted in, preferably) it would save us some grief later. On a sidenote, 'Polska Pani' means 'Polish lady'...which neither me or Halibutt is :) Lady, that is :) If you wanted to say 'Polish misters', then 'Polscy Panowie' is right (but very formal - we are all collegues here, no 'Pan's' here). Still, we appreciate the effort :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul PiotrusTalk 15:06, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No harm done, and we appreciate your intentions. On a sidenote, I find the entire chapter on Polish-Georgian common history quite fascinating. It's really not something you hear about every day...--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul PiotrusTalk 15:21, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, no harm done :) . Using Polish honorary forms is quite complicated even for the Poles themselves and it's quite easy to get lost. In case you wondered, the pan/pani forms are explained here. In short, we use them either before the names/surnames when we mention a third person (like in pan John Doe/ pan Doe/ pan John was kind enough to mention that...) or we replace the name with the form when referring to the person directly (something like I find pan a very decent person instead of Mr. Doe, I find you a very decent person). //Halibutt 18:20, 10 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Although I certainly think that Międzymorze would have been a better solution that Soviet Union, neither can claim that it 'liberated' people who did not want to join that organization. Of course, Międzymorze never became a reality, but the Ukrainians and Belorusians who found themselves in the borders of the Second Polish Republic, while certainly had an easier life then in SU (no holodomor, for example), where at a disadvantage when compared to Poland. And as both of them did try to create their own states (see Polish-Soviet War for more info), the fact that they failed and got, well, partitioned between Poland and SU makes it quite obvious that they were not 'liberated' by any side.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul PiotrusTalk 15:17, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As you write yourself, the fact then one evil is lesser then the other does not make it good. Was the Polish rule a better alternative then the Soviet? I think yes, although there may be some who disagree with me. Was it 'liberation'? No, at least not for anybody who was not an ethnic Pole. On a side note, please don't lump all Russian editors together. Yes, some unfortunately tend to promote some version of 'Greater Russia', but most of them are well-meaning and reasonable folks who deserve our respect.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul PiotrusTalk 18:11, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis, thanks again for the photos:) I was suggested to create a wiki portal on Georgia. I've just posted a proposal at Wikipedia:Portal/Proposals though I'm not exactly sure of how it should be created at this point. If you support the idea, please vote at this entry. Thanks, Kober 17:56, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. I'm preparing an article on the 17th-century Georgian-Armenian emigrant to Poland who served as the Polish envoy in Persia.
Thanks a lot for your voting. Cheers, Kober 18:02, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Any time my dear friend. Rachvelians forward! :) Noxchi Borz 18:07, 11 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Great! I’ll copy your Georgia Unity code to my user page if you don’t mind:). Only, I’d suggest changing Russian code wording simply to “this user opposes racism in Russia and Caucasophobia” to prevent your page from being attacked by… you know them :). Thanks, Kober 05:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. BTW, I’ve uploaded one of Mr Andersen’s maps to Bagrat III and Emirate of Tbilisi. Thanks to you and Mr Andersen, these articles look better now.
I'll be away from Wiki till June 16th. If you have any questions, please email me any time. Thanks a lot. All the best. Noxchi Borz 17:17, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No matter how frustrated you may feel, please don't result to personal attacks—they only make situations worse. —Khoikhoi 00:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I cant stand Turkish or any other chauvinistic/fundamentalist attacks on any subject. I think there should be a rule on Wiki about chauvinist and fundamentalist garbage. Tell me, if someone is a neo-Nazi and comes to wiki to argue BS like denying Holocaust, how can you tolerate that? I saw that on Armenian Genocide articles and now on Ajara. If you tolerate people like that, you will have anarchy on this web site. Wiki has already failed in many aspects and it will continue to fail as realisable source for any info. There is a web site which managed that perfectly and offered a serious reader unbiased materials, Axis History Forum. They have developed set of rules which prevent such garbage to overshadow the learning process which the web site was responsible for. Wiki has no such sense of responsibility or reason. Noxchi Borz 13:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. My friend just emailed my this photo showing Cholokashvili and his friend Shalva Nebieridze in France. Unfortunately, it's of very poor quality. I'll try to get a better one. All the best, --Kober 06:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks a lot Kober, thats the one i was looking for. If you can find better quality, let me know. Thanks again! Noxchi Borz 13:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, Luis. It's too painful to me to see how user:Macahel (a Georgian-speaker from Turkey) behaves here and denies Adjarians to be Georgians. This is how cultural assimilation works... --Kober 21:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kober, they did that to Lazs too. Many of them think that they don't have anything in common with Georgians. You are correct, its too painful for Georgians. But you always get people like that. My girlfriend is French Canadian and she hates Canada (she's separatist) , so.. :) Noxchi Borz 21:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is she?:) On the other hand, user:SidE's position is completely different. I like him. He is translating your awesome articles on Abkhazia into Turkish. Gaumarjos! --Kober 03:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Luis, we're supposed to have another battlefield, this time on Sochi article. The current version describes this resort as the city near the Russian border with Abkhazia! I reluctantly compromised to mention Abkhazia being a breakaway republic of Georgia, but the Russian User:tasc removes even this phrase. If he doesn't restore it, I'll probably mark the intro section as disputed.--Kober 14:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Luis, no more an issue:). We've just got rid of this sentence at all. Ciao,--Kober 15:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, I was only reverting to Alex Bakharev's version (I did correct a few language errors on the way, however). I am sure that that version is more NPOV, however. Prague watchdog did not belong there. --Pan Gerwazy 21:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Luis, I would like to ask for your attention, because there is a big deal going on on Georgia's talk's page. The argument is to make the Georgia search criterion to result in a redirect to the Georgia (country) page. It is understandable that this is an English wikipedia and most American users prefer a dab page. However, according to statistics more than 2,000 users per month read the article about the country of Georgia and the state of Georgia gets around 800 readers per month. I don't believe that the cultural and historical aspects should be compared of two Georgias, because there is nothing to compare. The country of Georgia is an ancient hitorical country, has more UN world heritage sites than the State of Georgia, has its own language which is different from all the other languages in the world and etc. I don;t want this to turn into a cultural discussion and also making the Georgia search criterion to result in a redirect to the Georgia (country) page is not an underestimation of the beautiful U.S. state of Georgia.
I would like you to participate in voting, if you find tme for it.Sosomk 08:41, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Luis, you can vote on Talk:Georgia (country) under Requested move - July 2006 section. ThanksSosomk 19:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I made a comment on prtal talk Georgia about the flag of Abkhazia. I hope I did not offend any Abkhaz government members with high sensibilities.:)) The pic was hillarious, I think it was awsome. I don't see any reasons why should Kober and Alsandero care about the idiots like Bagapsh and his government. If Bagapsh and his government doesn't like it, screw them. They are stupid anyway. I don't like many things about thm also. I don't justify any tolerane towards them. Russian media is also full of crap saying: cruel Georgian are oppressing the ethnic minorities. The fact that there is not a single house in Chechnya, which was not bombed by the Russians seems to be ok. Chechen genocide in Russia also seems ok, but making fun of the de facto, thug Abkhazia government is a facism. That does not make any sense. It would be better for Bagapsh to come on his mind soon and get the heck out of Georgia.Sosomk 08:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I, Joseph, hereby award you this GeorgianGolden Fleece Order for all the work you have done for Georgia and Wikipedia in general. Keep sailing the Euxeinos Pontos! სოსოSosomk 10:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Luis. How are you? Congrats with the award! It was a great idea to start the Kist people article. Good job!
Let's write the history of Abkhazia article little by little. I started it at User:Kober/Draft - feel free to make further edits and corrections. To be honest, I'm confused by the existing controversies (even in Georgian literature) over the issue of the identity of Abasgs and Apsils. I'm trying right now to summarize what I've read in varous sources, but I'm too tired to think now:) Tell me what you think about it. Thanks, --Kober 20:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For your outstandingly productive cooperation on Georgia-related topics and for your exceptional images about Georgia and the Caucasus, I award you the corona civica. Keep it up! ~Kober (talk·contribs)
Dear Luis, thank you so much for the award. It made me very happy. I am very pleased and proud to hold this Canadian award. Thank you for everything. Sosomk 12:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for uploading Image:TL021461.jpg. I notice the file's description page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is unclear. If you have not created this file yourself, then there needs to be an argument why we have the right to use it on Wikipedia (see copyright tagging below). If you did not create the file yourself, then you need to specify where it was found, i.e., in most cases link to the website where it was taken from, and the terms of use for content from that page.
If you have uploaded other files, consider checking that you have specified their source and tagged them, too. You can find a list of files you have uploaded by following this link. Unsourced and untagged images may be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. feydey 15:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Could You please write who is in the picture, when it was taken and by whom and what is going on in the picture - this helps others to use the picture in the articles on Wikipedia. Also You write: "I usually buy them from "Eye of Georgia" and "getimages" - does that mean You buy images or their copyrights? Thanks, feydey 18:06, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If You want to make Your pictures available better then check out Commons - they provide Public Domain pictures to all wikiprojects (here is more about their mission). Best, feydey 18:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Luis, I recently reviewed your contributions to Georgia-related articles and would like to thank you for your great edits on the topic. If you don't mind, I used some of your pictures for the Caucasus Mountains page and the Mt. Shkhara article. If I can be of any assistance, please feel free to contact me (either at Wikipedia or by e-mail). Good luck, and wishing you all the best! D.Papuashvili 19:30, 14 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis, thank you for your offer. Your pictures were (and are) very needed on Wikipedia in order for the readers to get a better perception about Georgia and the Caucasus in general. I'm trying to improve and add some articles about Abkhazia. There's nearly no discussion about Ibero-Caucasian languages and culture in this encyclopedia and that should be changed. A lot of people really don't have the chance to look at how closely related the Chechens, Ingush, Cherkez and Georgians (not to mention the Abkhaz) are to each other culturally and that they represent a single family:). Take care and thanks again. D.Papuashvili 18:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. How are you? I really like your new userbox. It looks fine. Georgia parliament demanded the withdrawal of the Russian "peacekeepers" from the conflict zones yesterday. Things are going interestingly. Let's see what happens after this.
I'm currently using a slow 56k modem (: and my draft on Abkhazia history is not yet complete. Btw, I'll soon have a couple of photos of a military parade on Georgia's Independence Day 2006. The author allows us to use them for any purpose. If you need them let me know. Cheers, --Kober 15:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
These are great images! Thanks! I'll be sure to put them to good use. -- Clevelander 22:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Luis, what is the source of the John Bull image? As in where was it published first? I have that image and I also have another Bull image related to the AG but I need to know where was it published for the first time. I think I got both from ebay.--Eupator 14:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm extremely interested in photos of the Armenian Legion!!! You oughta upload your pictures to Wiki Commons in the future so other Wikipedia get access to them as well. --Eupator 15:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Got the AG photos. Out to lunch, will respond in greater detail... --Eupator 15:54, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, could you also give me a reference for the John Bull picture with some background info? Was the British press quite scathing of the inaction taken, or was there generally disinterest, etc? John Smith's 23:25, 20 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. I revised the history section in the Sukhumi article and added a link to the Massacre page. It seemed to have been written for Russian tourists:) What do you think about it? Thanks, --Kober 06:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. I started a Government of Abkhazia-in-exile article. Can you please review it and add some UN citations? What do you think about the latest developments in Kodori? Thanks,--Kober 05:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for my late reply, I was in Israel this past month. As usual, your pictures are amazing. :) I guess there wasn't a way to confirm the woman's age, as Jeanne Calment was younger when she died. Did the 130-er tell you about her life? —Khoikhoi 06:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Israel was great. I didn't really feel much of a tension, although I did see things like the Arabic being erased on some of the road signs. There are a lot of Ethiopian Jews in Israel, my friend came from Addis Ababa when he was two. I was actually reading a national geographic article (I know, I know ;)) about long age. Apparently there are a lot of people over the age of 100 at the Ryukyu Islands due to a good diet and keeping social ties. As for your photos, you should definately upload them to the Commons. That way all Wikipedias can use them. Just take your images as GFDL or PD—there will be a list of options when you upload the images. If you need help feel free to contact me. —Khoikhoi 02:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I recently came upon this picture on the history of Azerbaijan article. It really doesn't look like its the occupation of Baku (of 1920) for several reasons: The hats worn by the soldiers appear to be from the 1930s to the second World War era and not the pointy ones worn by Soviet soldiers during the Russian Revolution. The vehicle has to be at least 10-15 (they look like the troop transport GAZ trucks used during the war) years early for its time. The rifles are German Mausers (nearly all Soviet soldiers used the Mosin-Nagant rifle during the Russian Revolution), the machine guns held by them are Czech made ZB vz.26s which the first prototype didn't come into use until 1923. They look like soldiers arriving back from the war since many of them are decorated with medals. I originally raised my concerns about this image with Khoikhoi and I'm curious where exactly you found this or gave it to you.--MarshallBagramyan 16:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi! Glad you liked the Rila Monastery, it's kind of our national pride. Besides these in the article Bachkovo Monastery, there's Nikola Gruev's gallery here, as well as this free Creative Commons gallery. Hope you like them! Todor→Bozhinov 17:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, we've got a lot of ancient heritage to be proud of. Don't hesitate to come and check the monasteries out!
I've only seen photos of Armenian and Georgian churches, but I like the style very much. Also, some of my favourites in terms of style are the Nordic wooden stave churches and the Wooden Churches of Maramureş in northern Romania. I seem to like slim, tall and sharp-edged towers and wood :) Anyway, I probably like them just because I find them exotic and foreign, since we mostly have semicircular domes and onion-shaped towers here :) Todor→Bozhinov 18:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's even more cruel — actually, these around 15,000 soldiers were blinded (after the Battle of Kleidion), with one of each 100 left one-eyed to lead them back home. According to Skylitzes Samuil died of a heart attack after seeing his blinded soliders. The Byzantines actually took pride in this act and gave Basil II the nickname Bulgar-slayer (Boulgaroktonos).
It's true that Bachkovo has a typically Georgian architecture preserved through the ages. I don't know much about the Byzantine actions towards the Georgians, but they may be true — the Middle Ages were a period of brutality and cruelty. It's all history now, fortunately, though it seems not everywhere. The people of the Caucasus — Armenians, Georgians, Caucasian Albanians — have a remarkable history of ancient Christian tradition and very specific church architecture (and rituals).
The Byzantine church architecture had a great influence on our style indeed. Generally, the Byzantine tradition influenced tremendously most of today's Orthodox countries.
As for the icons, this one, the Three-Handed Virgin in the Troyan Monastery, is quite well-known and appreciated, although there are others, including very ancient ones. This ceramic icon is from around the year 900, from the medieval capital of the First Bulgarian Empire, Preslav — one of the few preserved from the period. It was actually like a puzzle when discovered, in hundreds or thousands of pieces, but was carefully reconstructed by a single man, and the reconstruction took him several years. Todor→Bozhinov 18:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I like it, but what do you mean by it being part of your collection? I mean, you haven't taken the photo yourself, since you told me you haven't visited the monastery, but you claim copyright. Has the photographer transferred his rights over the photo to you? If yes, we need some sort of confirmation, and if not, the image can't remain on Wikipedia, unfortunately, since it wouldn't be free — the photographer still would have full copyright over it. Todor→Bozhinov 17:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I see, so everything's OK then. Thanks for clarifying! Todor→Bozhinov 17:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My dear freind, such comments as these [1], [2], [3] are also offensive, bad faith and disruptive, please keep your personal opinions on your userpage and avoid polluting wikipedia with insulting material. It is actually quite remarkable how out of nothing you manage to do exactly what you accuse me of. POLITISATION. If you want to save face I strongly recommend to remove this text where applicable, otherwise I will report you as a violator of Wikipedian policies and if necessary request a comment on User Conduct. Personally I could not care less what churches are selected or chosen, but I have a right to an opinion and idea without prejedice insults directed at it. Funny you live in the western world yet free speach and civility is obviously not something you are familiar with.--Kuban Cossack 17:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First and formost, this is the flag of the Russian Empire that was at time official flag of Russia. By putting that flag in my signature I am saying that I am a Monarchist, a Cossack and if you like a conservative. Nationalism is a term that is coined and missused but in any case should not be confused with fascism, and if anything I hold no phobia or prejedice for a particular group of people because of their racial, ethnic or national origins. Second, personal opinion on matters is indeed correct, but insulting and aggrevation is not, that was exactly what you did in Orthodoxy wikiproject, to try to mislead the reading public and discredit my suggesting by using offensive and insulting language. Thirdly that makes a big difference between you and me, as I only merely suggested some features (eg a photocollage of church buildings), and you respoded with insults and aggrevation, particulary assuming that I have some rhetoric just because I did not include a Georgian church in the suggestion? Well let's just say that that was purely me being naive, and if you believe that I was trying to propagate panslavism or Russian nationalism then rest assured I was not. How about this you censor your comments from the false accusations (as now they are proven) and of course from now on I shall never even think about excluding Ceorgian (or Serbian, Ethionpian and Ukrainian churches - although my wife happens to be Ukrainian) when I talk about Orthodoxy, thanks for enlighting me to do so ;) Lastly my real name is Alexander (Sasha), it was very nice to meet you.--Kuban Cossack 18:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well I do not like arguing in circles, but I do not like false accusations existing against me, so unfortunately until you remove the irrelevant comments from the talk page of wikiproject. Now here is my view on what happened, I suggested (innocentely please whoever you accuse me to be, I am not a liar) to make a photocollage of the most famous Orthodox churches, ones that you can find in Britannica. Now will there be Georgian or Ethiopian chuches there is a big question, perhaps up to research, however you can bet 100% there would be a Russian Church there. Now it is true that Russia is by far not the only Orthodox country, but it is true that presentely Russian Orthodox Church is one if not the largest in the world. That is what I mean by fame and prominance, however that does not mean that I want to downscale another Orthodox Church, however, unless one wants to make a 20 photograph collage that noone will make out a single image, there will have to be some exceptions, Georgian and Ethiopian churches fell into that category not out of deliberance but out of chance. Once again if I have offended someone, my sincere apologies. So if you want to continue with the photocollage (although I will still insist that you remove the accusations) then it is really up to an open idea for brainstorming, if it is a bad bone inside you that makes you have a Georgian Churchm then please, we will have a Georgian church, I am even prepared to alter my original statement to accomodate for such a parameter.
Now back to the flag question, then please a flag is merely symbolism, I mean the Vlasov army that collaborated with Nazis in WWII also used the white-blue-red flag, but that would not mean that the flag = nazi collaborators. As for democracy, again the word comes from greek demos - people and kratos - rule. I.e. People's rule. Liberalism is not the same as democracy. Neither is Capitalism. Those are three different terms that sometimes are used in conjunction. In terms of Democracy in Russia then if you consider the Eltsin years as democratic then you have certainly mistaken. I would use the term Anarchic as more suitable description. As for western-orientated, well I can have a full polemical discussion about Russia and ex-USSR, however for the sake of our consensus can you do what I ask of you remove your accusations, I will edit my suggestions. --Kuban Cossack 20:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for understanding and a good faith gesture, I respect people that do that, I look forward to working with you in the future, best of luck! --Kuban Cossack 20:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Luis, the template looks great. Great job. Sosomk 13:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good job, Luis. Abkhazia template is also well done. However, I do hope that the de facto crap will desappear pretty soon. Bagapsh better stop making the ingorant comments on the Russian TV before our guys lose patience. The most ridiculous thing is that Russia explicitly supports terrorism in Abkhazia and they station their troops in Northern Caucasus to supports Northern Caucasian, Muslims who they try to portray evil in the case of Chechens. You know how much troubles we went trough to upload a kid's and Dudaev's picture on the Chechen people page. Bagapsh and Russians should realize that it is no longer 1992 and Bagapsh will be stopped, probably in a peaceful way. Sosomk 10:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. I totally agree, the cost is too great. In my honest opinion I don't think Hezbollah can be whiped out. History tells us that it is nearly impossible to destroy guerrilla organizations. I think everyone wants this to end—it has gone on too long. I recently saw some images here, and I have to say that just because I am Jewish, I do not side with Israel on every action they take. —Khoikhoi 22:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I am on wiki now.Sosomk 18:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I totally agree with you on those issues. I think everything happens very fast in Georgia. If you think about just XX century, we changed 3 types of Govt. I think we are doing a better job in democracy than our neighbours. I just found out that Yushenko supported some Russian Commie bastared to be the Prime Minister. That's frustrating, because at least Yulia Timoshenko is just better looking and democratic. As far as Sameba article, we do need to write it. However, there is not an article about it on Georgian encyclopedia and not many georgian or english-speaking authors have written about it yet, so the citing will be kind of complicated. we have to come up with out work. So, I am an expert in ecclessiatic terinology or theology and I am gonna try to see somebody to help me out on that. In addition, we have to write an article about Sameba before Armenians write that it is an Armenian Church and then we have to have lots of discussions to change it back :)). Sosomk 18:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Luis, I was just wondering if you actually took the pictures you upload on wiki. Have you been to Georgia? File:TL021501.jpgfor example, this pic
All the pics you upload are amazing. Thanks for offering to email my favorites. It is very interesting to travel the world as much as you do. Wow, I have never been to Abkhazia or South Ossetia. I was just a baby when we lost control over them. Let me know when you come to Georgia next time. If I am here, I will get a chance to meet with you. You can also stay at my house in Tbilisi. Sosomk 18:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You are part of Georgian Culture so much :):). We should definetly get together with Kober. There are many new places that have good Khinkhalis and Khachapuris, Mtskavdis and etc. My mom is from Pshavi (I mean her family) and my dad is from Kakheti. So, she specializes in Khinkali, (you know Khinkhali comes from mountainous Georgia) and my dad is an expert in wine.:)) So I ahve always good khinkali and wine Sosomk 19:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I love Mingrelian and Imeretian food also. As you know every part of Georgia has its own traditions of making the food. Georgia is considered a Wine Country, but Kakheti is the biggest wine producer as you know. Most families in Kakheti make their wine, which is the best in Georgia. Sorry, Luis but I am gonna have to go now, because I found out that one of my friend had an accident and I an gonna have to get up very early to see him in a hospital tomorrow. Best Regards,
P.S. my email is Sosomk@gmail.com Sosomk 19:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there, yes I am a Coptic Christian, and i would be very happy and excited to work on articles relating to Egyptian, Ethiopian orthodoxy articles with you. There is also an orthodox branch of wikipedia. I believe that orthodox christianity is the oldest of all and that people out there need to know this. I wanted to ask you, how is it that you are a descendant of Tutankhamen, does this mean you are a part of the royal family? Also, are any of your Ancestors Ethiopian?
Cluckbang 21:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
Hi there, in the coptic calendar almost every day is a holiday, and this repeats every 30 days, as you may know every month is 30 days except the 13 month which is 5 days (6 every leap year). If you'd like I can add the list to the Coptic article. I also agree with you that we should create a Coptic article. Please send the link to the article and I will add as much as I know from the experts I know about this religion Please let me know. Also do you know anything about Ancient Yemen, and how they are connected to the Semites of Ethiopia? Do you believe that Abyssinia was a South Arabian transplant in Africa?, because some see it as a theory. Also i just added to the Coptic Christianity, about how Ethiopia helped the Copts from being wiped out by the Arabs, when they threatened to close the nile. Bye
Cluckbang 18:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
Hi, I found this photo on Portal:Georgia (country) and, since the copyright allowed it, uploaded a copy on Georgian wiki here. The copyright notice is attached. We would like to use it as a featured photo on the main page, if we're able to find enough info on the subject copy of the gospel. Hope you won't mind. Best. - Alsandro · T · w:ka:Th · T 17:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
PS: would you mind uploading it on commons as well? - a.[reply]
I would like to know where you’ve got the Abkhazian flag of government-in-exile? I’m asking this question because I think that the article about the flag of Abkhazia could be improved with more infos about this specific flag.
Other question: could you provide a vectorized (.SVG) version of the flag and the coat-of-arms? I think it should be better for displaying…
Luis, do you by chance have any images of or related to Nakhichevan? Thanks! -- Clevelander 13:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Luis! Great images! Thanks! I sent you an e-mail (with my e-mail address included just in case). Be sure to send me some of those images. BTW, good job so far on the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict article! -- Clevelander 22:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmmm, I did some research on the history of the page, see the first version back in 2003:
There's no such word as Gruzim. Georgian Jews are called in Russian -"Gruzinskie Evrei" or in Georgian - Kartuli Ebraelebi. (both translations are in Plural)
The Gruzim are Jews from the Georgia in the Caucasus. The word Gruzim comes from the Russian term Gruzinskie Evrei ("Georgian Jews"). Like their neighbors, their primary language is Georgian; also, like their neighbors, in modern times they also speak Russian.
I also did a Google search and couldn't find anything about them being called "Gruzim" besides Wikipedia and it's mirrors. Therefore feel free to move the page to Georgian Jews and re-write the article to get rid of the word. Hope that helped! BTW, I liked the pictures. :) —Khoikhoi 03:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Also, when you move the page, don't forget to check for double redirects. —Khoikhoi 03:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis, Thanks for the picture. It's very funny.
As far as the POV pushing concerned, I hope my discussions helped. I was not very diplomatic, because I was straightforward. They are not diplomatic either, so it is ok. Now I am going back on my break and I will back every now and then and I am gonna finish the Sameba the first thing I come back.
Sosomk 15:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. Some Abkhaz sources claim that those Abkhaz who were exiled to Turkey in the 1870s were recognzed by the 1951 UN resolution as refugees. Is this true? Thanks, --Kober 15:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nop, there is no single resolution by UN on "Abkhaz Refugees." However, such resolution does exist on so called "Turk-Meskhetians" dating 1960sLdingley 16:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks. --Kober 16:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well it appears that the Russian users are fleering up as well, probably for the same reason! Luis, I don't think the Russian editors would be POV-pushing on neutral articles, I actually think mikka has good intentions. He wants the article to be NPOV. If the article was already 100% neutral, him and Ghirla wouldn't have objections to it! Perhaps you could get Kober involved, he can usually find compromises pretty quickly. Until then, relaaaaaaaaaaaaaax. :) —Khoikhoi 05:18, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Khoi. When trying to eliminate an alleged pro-Georgian POV, the Russian users effectively push their own POV (I wouldn't say pro-Abkhaz POV, because their edits are more anti-Georgian, than pro-Abkhaz) and post rather offensive comments which Luis has already removed. I think, it was a good solution as it prevented a likely extremely hot dispute. I was very outraged when reading their comments that Georgians lost the war because they were not good fighters (how about Russian air and naval forces bombing Georgians almost daily?) and I had to make a titanic effort to quell my anger. Mikka also accuses Luis of Russophobia and claims he (Luis) is a "sock of a Georgian nationalist" [4]. Is this really a good intention?
Futhermore, the Russian editors consider Western sources used in the article Russophobic and refuse to accept them. Following this logic, Russian and Abkhaz sources are supposed to be Westernophobic+Georgianophobic and Georgian sources Russophobic+Abkhazophobic. So what's the way out of this?
Then they will claim that Russia is not a conflict party, but a mediator! Btw, Luis, have you already signed this petition?:)--Kober 06:40, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Luis, I hope that incident with mikka and co won't discourage you from continuing your wonderful work on wiki. We need a friend like you very mach. Thanks a lot, --Kober 16:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll always be by your side Ldingley 19:45, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. How are you? Thanks again for your much-needed contributions. I'm not sure what I will be able to contribute to the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia, since I don't have significant information on that topic. I lived through the Abkhaz War and all I know is that a lot of Georgians were simply massacred or expelled without any justification whatsoever. I also have heard and read from fairly reliable sources that Basayev and Kupalba (Garry) were responsible for the Gagra Massacre where the separatists cut off the heads of Georgians and played soccer with their heads in 1992. I'm not sure if this is included in the ethnic cleansing article since I have not read it yet. Let me know if I can help in any way.
Best Regards, D.Papuashvili 17:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The template is great, Luis. I needed it very much, but was not sure how to create it. Many thanks, --Kober 15:55, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. Thanks for the corrections in the draft :)
Luis, as always, you're right :) Actually, nationalism is not too bad, but they were real chauvinists equally brainwashed by ethnic stereotypes and Soviet ideology. How do you like a shape of the article in general? Is it OK?
The Georgia article is not only in a huge mess, but lacks a crucial section about Georgian culture. Here's a top ten list of articles I'd like to work on. I heavily depend on my free time and your help of course :)
1. History of Abkhazia
2. Abkhazia
3. Georgian-Abkhaz conflict
4. Georgia (country) (how I hate this title!)
5. Georgian Orthodox Church
6. Eparchy of Tskhum-Abkhazeti (!)
7. History of Georgia
8. Bagrationi dynasty
9. Culture of Georgia
10. Shota Rustaveli.
Kober 16:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Luis. Your edits on history of Georgia article are great and I like the usage of images very much. I also noticed that you uploaded that Russian eagle protest poster. It is now very popular in Georgia, especially among the youth. I wrote a few sentences about Shatili. I'll soon resume work on history of Abkhazia. Cheers, --Kober 18:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. Dingley, I am kind of back, but I will remove the tag later, because I am not planning to write any articles today. I just logged on to see what was going on. Which part of Georgian history are you considered a this pont? In addition, I have a question about Copts? I became intersted after you showed me some pics. Were they Armaic speaking before Arabs?Sosomk 19:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! So they are descendants of ancient Egyptians. I was just wondering if there was any relations between them and Georgians, because before there was Georgian alphabet, I believe that we used Greek and Armaic. I guess similarity in crosses does not equal rlation.:) I was just reading a book about the late 1700's and early 1800's in Georgian history. The author pointed out that September 11 is as dreadful in Georgian history as it is in the US history. After Battle of Krtsanisi Tbilisi wastotally devastated Mohammad Khan Qajar of Persia. Sosomk 20:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should say more about Kartl_kakheti Kingdom in the article, because Erekle II is mostly considered as the last king of all Georgia, even though he was nor officially the King of United Georgia. However, he did control Georgia, because King of Imereti and Western Georgia was his grandson. Sosomk 20:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Historians in Georgia usualy have two opinions. Onw say that Erekle was not a good monarch, because he could unite Georgia and he did not do so. Others say that he was the best leader ever. I think that he was a great king and there are lots of reasons to support my argument. As you know that period in Georgian history was very hard. Georgians fought against with three conqueror. First, with Persiansm, second - Ottomans and third - Northern Caucasians. Erekle was very pro- Western even though he was brought up in Persia. Sosomk 20:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The biggest thing that part of Georgian history hould say is why Georgia ended up under Russian rule. There was one Russian guy on wiki saying that Russia protected their orthodox brothers and Georgia should always thank for that. The historical reality is:The only dream of King Heraclius II was to make an alliance with other European countries. He welcomed every guest from the Western Europe and also Catholic missionaries. His quote is that Georgia had to catch up with the Western Europe and the best way to rule the country was the way that Werstern Europe was going with. In addition, he was fighting with the three conquerors. Historians say that there was not a week that Heraclius spent without a battle against one of them. He thought that the only way that would connect Georgians with other Europeans was going through Russia. Georgia and Russia signed a treaty of Georgievsk and Heraclius was left alone in the very first battle that Georgia fought against Ottoman Empire. Russia and its general Totlteben were hoping that their Orthodox brothers would die off in the battle and they could get the territory easier. After that Heraclius even tried to abolish the traty of Georgievsk, but it was too late. I understand that we have to cite the article and there can be lots of Georgian sources, but the only english source I have is Roger Rosen guidebook to Georgia for my foreign visitors:) Sosomk 20:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I will back on wiki. What about making it like that "Ottoman, Persian and Dagestan invasions of Georgia" and say about Kartl-Kakheti Erekle and his grandson Solomon and etc?Sosomk 20:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thank a lot. I have heard about legendary David Lang. Sosomk 20:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! As a matter of fact, Andersen is the guy who's credibility I'm trying to defend by Grandmaster who believes him to be an "unreliable source". -- Clevelander 20:48, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I showed that exact piece to GM who even still continues to believe him to be a dubious source. -- Clevelander 23:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mr. Dingley, please see the article on Chokha and add your great images. Sosomk 19:37, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Luis. Many thanks for your kind words and for the citation from Mr Kolbaias book. ;) Luis, do you know by any chance how many people were killed and wounded in the Soviet attack on Georgia in 1921? I'm going to write an article about this war as soon as History of Abkhazia is finished. I think the article about 1921 events is needed very much since Soviet/Russian sources claim that it was not an occupation and Georgians invited the Red Army to overthrow Zhordania's govt. Do you have an access to "History of Modern Georgia" by DM Lang? I believe the Soviet invasion is also described in this book. Thanks again, --Kober 17:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Luis. I have some info about the timeline of the 1921 war and kakutsa's uprising, but I don't know the number of casualties. Unfortunately, I have no time (you know why :)) to go to library and find some extra info. I would be very grateful if you find something on this particular problem in Langs book. As for the Russian annexation, I wrote a few sentences about those events in Bagrationi Dynasty#Last monarchs. Please correct if there are any mistakes; I wrote the section somewhat hastily. Cheers,--Kober 17:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I will be so grateful. :):)) Won't it be a problem? --Kober 17:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Thanks a lot, I'll email you. I'll probably stage a new coup in Georgia, if they thief the package :). --Kober 17:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't help myself. :) BTW, keep an eye on the Lazistan article - every once in awhile some fringe Laz Jihadist group (no joke, I'm not trying to be racist or anyting) adds an image of a proposed "Islamic Emirate of Lazistan". It used to be a user called Lazistan adding the images, but now they got a different account. My friend got fed up after awhile. I think this same user is responsible for adding the Taliban flag to the Afghanistan article a month ago (the page got protected because of that). It's actually pretty funny, because I think this "group" is probably just one guy who has nothing better to do than draw pointless maps. :p —Khoikhoi 18:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! ;-) BTW, what is "Lazica"? Is that another name for the Laz people or the region of Lazistan? —Khoikhoi 18:35, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again. There are so many theories about Basque. BTW, is that the same as "Lazca"? —Khoikhoi 18:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Very interesting indeed. —Khoikhoi 19:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No you won't Luis. :) Maybe the controversial ones, but not all Georgia-related topics. As for Copts, I'm not sure. Check out some of the discussion at the discussion page. Do you have sources that say they're a separate ethnic group? I don't know enough about them to make that judgement, try asking one of the Egyptian Wikipedians such as Arab League, Meno25, or perhaps Ahmednh.
BTW, the People of Ethiopia article shouldn't have an an infobox. {{Infobox ethnic group}} is meant for single ethnic groups, not people of a country. Take care. —Khoikhoi 19:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, check the history of the Copts page. See this version by Afanous. He doesn't seem to be active anymore, so I suggest you make a comment about your proposal at Talk:Copt. If there are no objections, move the page to Copts, Copt people, or Coptic people (I don't know which one is best), and then change the article accordingly.
Oh yes sir. I would love to assist you in writing a separate article on the Coptic people. I truly agree with you that they are most definitely not arabs. This culture has survived with Ethiopia since, they use the coptic calendar. I will contribute to the article as much as I can.
CluckbangCluckbang
I am not sure if its the correct translation in Coptic. I do agree with replacing the Copt article with the one you're working on right now.
Cluckbang 17:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
No, I am from Ethiopia, but I do follow the coptic religion, that is why I said I am a coptic christian in religion, I am sorry if i misled you by writing that in my user page. Yes I do believe that Copts are not arabs, most definitely not, their land was just occupied by the Arabs and some of the copts did end up being arabized and changed religions, but the present copts are different from the arabs
Cluckbang 17:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
Just as you have created an article on Copts, I wanted to create an article on the habesha people similar to the coptic article you have just created. Can you please assist me in creating this article?
Cluckbang 17:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
Great job on the Copts article, but to my disappointment, I noticed a lot of it was copied from here. :( Do you have permission from them? —Khoikhoi 23:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you serious?? LOL, I never knew! This should therefore be clearly stated in the article in the references section, as so other people don't think it's copyvio. —Khoikhoi 23:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hehe, I'll leave you alone for a bit. :) It's just that as you can see, there were many Coptic Popes called Cyril. —Khoikhoi 01:48, 31 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wanted to know if you could help me start the page for the habesha people article. In terms of adding the front pictures, like you did with the coptic article?
Cluckbang 13:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang
Great! Thanks, this is the article User:Cluckbang/Habesha people[reply]
Thanks so much L. Dingley! However, I wanted to know how i could change the pictures on the template? Thanks so much. Take care
Cluckbang 18:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
Just one more thing Mr Dingley, how is it that I can protect the article from being edited by others, but rather decide myself after seeing their suggestions?
Cluckbang 11:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)Cluckbang[reply]
It would be a good idea to have a gallery/category of russian revolution in WikiCommons, linked from wikipedia in the corresponding series of articles. Unfortunately currently in Commons a couple of guys lead a huge campaign against the image tag "PD-USSR" (similar to the one used in your photos). If you have an account in Commons, wouuld you like to join the vote for deletion Commons:Template:Deletion_requests#.7B.7BPD-Soviet.7D.7D? `'mikka(t) 00:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have nothing against PD-USSR tag. But there is a highly divided situation as to the interpretation of the Soviet law. Unfortunately I cannot give you an advice about historical photos, since I am not an expert in copyrights. I think that wikimedia is the best place for them, because in this way the images can be used in wikipedias in different languages, but you have to consult wikimedia experts by asking questions in talk pages for pages linked from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Upload, most probably in http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Licensing. `'mikka(t) 22:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Luis. I'm back. Don't worry :) I wrote the article on Ketevan the Martyr a long time ago. :) Your Georgia infobox looks great. I'm currently focused on gathering the citations on Russian inolvement in the Abkhazian war. Thanks, --Kober 20:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Never heard of that author, Luis. Seems very interesting, especially the date when the book was published. In 1914, the Georgian Orthodox Church was still under illegitimate Russian control. --Kober 20:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks alot, Luis. You're the best :) As far as I know, they never found what they were looking for, the grave. Some relics of Ketevan have been found in India.--Kober 20:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, it is said so :) The Georgian Chronicles say that Rusudan inherited from her mother, Tamar, nothing but beauty. Btw, some Muslim authors of that time also attempted to discredit Tamar as a lusty and nymphomaniac queen. --Kober 20:30, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See you, Luis. Have a great weekend too.--Kober 20:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What would you think about a sort of collaboration (but not a true one) regarding the Ethiopian Emperors in which editors would add content to the existing articles one by one, chronologically? Please respond at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethiopia/History. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 04:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
All your pictures are copyrighted. At the same time you write that "the copyright holder has irrevocably released all rights to it, allowing it to be freely reproduced, distributed, transmitted, used, modified, built upon, or otherwise exploited in any way by anyone for any purpose, commercial or non-commercial, with or without attribution of the author, as if in the public domain". That is a contradiction. As long as you say they are copyrighted we can't use them in the German Wikipedia. Is that what you want? -- 87.123.81.116 13:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Luis. How are you? My draft is becoming too long. How about to transfer some of its content to the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict article and abridge the conflict section in the main History article? What do you think about it? Btw, Soso renewed our long-time request to move Sukhumi to Sokhumi on Talk:Sukhumi. Thanks, Kober 17:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Luis. You are right. I'm also losing interest in WP. However, until Google search shows Wikipedia's "Abkhazia" article as first result, I will stay here at least to monitor my watchlist :) Kartvelian ultra-nationalism and imperialism, heh!:) --Kober 03:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
,_in_the_early_1900s,_Sergei_Mikhailovich_Prokudin-Gorskii.jpg)
17:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
18:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Georgian Army
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